Neighbour Replacing 2m Sliding Gate with 3.5x5m Roller Door - Doesn't Have Permit

Hey all,

I purchased a tiny 1 bedroom unit with a very small (2x6m) outdoor courtyard 18 months ago. My courtyard gets some nice arvo sun from about Oct - Feb and was primarily the reason I bought this unit.

I spent 8 months designing and renovating the outdoor space to be able to fit a small outdoor studio pod to WFH, erected permanent hammock poles, a clothesline, BBQ and a small outdoor setting all specifically designed and oriented so they have access to the limted light that I do get. I've also had to remove and plant a protected tree as part of a permit condition witin my courtyard which cost me several thousand $. The tree was chosen specifically so I could prune it to allow access and sunlight through to my courtyard, and for it's location with limited acces to sunlight etc. I had to make many design iterations to my space to make it work, enable access to sunlight and to keep it within council regulations. This included reducing the size of my WFH studio pod as it wasnt allowed to form part of the fenceline etc.

However I just got home and my neightbour has put up some big 4m poles right on the fence line of his property right next to mine, and now I have just realised its going to be a big 5m wide, 3.5m high roller garage door!! This structure is going to block a about half the already limited sunlight to my property, and will mean that the protected tree I've had to plant will be in perpetual shadow.

He needs a permit for this roller door and he doesn't have one (I've checked and well aware of the rules having gone through it myself last year replacing my own fence and gate) but not sure what to do now? Best to try chat to him? Or just call Council enforcement?

Is it likely Council would simply fine him and allow him to continue? Or require him to go through the permit process which will allow me to object and shadowing / alternative locations for the door might be taken into consideration? He is on a large block and the roller door could be relocated several meters to the west where it wouldnt cast shadowing into my courtyard.

Photo of my courtyard and the two poles he's erected over his sliding gate where the roller door is going up: https://ibb.co/3WvJkfb

Update: Submitted the request to Council to investigate last night with photos, measurements, reasoning on how it will impact me including dropping water into my property (we are in a flood zone too), dropping stuff onto my clothes lines, with shadow diagrams and suggested alternative location / height which wont impact me or anyone else. I submitted it assuming I wouldn't see him before the weekend to discuss in person and he'd complete it over the weekend (and I'm planning to be away).

He rocked up early this morning to do some more work on it, I wasnt going to say aything, but then I overheard him gloating with a neighbour who passed by how he got the roller doors for free and saying how he had a scissor lift lined up to put it up over the weekend. So I went out to talk to him, hoping to save him the time/money/effort of potentially pulling the whole thing down rather than just the poles.

As expected he was hostile and unreasonable claiming he didn't need a permit and he knew because he is a builder, didn't believe me about my own permit/tree requirement etc. Tried claiming it wouldn't impact me at all even after showing him the giant shadows of the poles covering my courtyard, just completely denying it. Eventually left in a huff saying he was going down to council to get a permit today (not possible). Started pointing out roller doors across the laneway asking if they all had permits lol. I just said, yeah, probably.

I assumed he'd know it was me who dobbed him in confrontation or not as it really only impacts me so figured it was worth a shot to save him time/money over the weekend and having to hire a scissor lift again and pull it down and move it over etc. But I'm sure he wont see it that way of course.

Update #2. He returned, obviously unable to get a permit. Still angry he started saying I have to compromise and let him continue. I said I was willing to compromise so lets talk.

His first "Compromise" was to build it where it was at the same height otherwise he would plant trees all along my fenceline out of spite. lol. I told him that's not a compromise, and if he watns to do that then theres nothing I can do about it, but at least I'd have some nice trees and not a garage door eyesore.

He also tried claiming he spent $8k on the roller doors before I pulled him up on his bullshit saying I heard him say he got it for free… This was the first time he stopped being hostile. lol.

Said I'd be willing to withdraw my complaint if he reduced the height to 2.4m total which is the legal requirement. Obviously it wasn't going to work as he wants to be able to drive his van into the property. So we got out the measuring tape and measured it up, found the height that allowed him to get it in (without the roof racks loaded up) which put the brackets at 2.5m rather than 3.4m or so (so top of the roller door will still reach about 2.9m or so, so still very much illegal without a permit).

I said it wasn't ideal, and I'd like him to cap it on my side to prevent water and debris going all over my property and clothes line etc. but I'd compromise, agree and let council know we came to an agreement. I also said I couldn't control what happened from Council's side though, as it was still illegal, didn't have a permit, they're already aware. I suggested he waits until he has a permit as it may still need to be moved or not granted a permit etc… but he said he would continue any way and install it tomorrow. I just said ok, but if you had have talked to me first we could have avoided all this, to which he kinda begrudgingly agreed. Ended up having a chat about other stiuff for 10 mins or so and seemed calm finally.

I sent an email to council letting them know we had reached an agreement, with some photos and measurements of where the brackets would be etc.

He's now cutting the brackets and moving them to the agreed upon height.

Interesting to see if council follows it up.

Comments

  • +36

    Other than being an eyesore I can't see how it will block the sun?

    Which way is north in your picture?

    Also your silver ribbon fern needs a bit of help.

  • That photo is looking west-ish. Once the roller door is on it'll block a fair bit, including my washing line etc.

    • +11

      i would have thought the tree is already blocking the light.
      why do you think changing a sliding door to a roller door requires a permit?

      • +4

        There is no tree blocking any light here… I get sun from about midday through to mid arvo Nov-Feb-ish. This roller rood will block about half of it.

        Its part of the fence line, so requires a permit if above 2m. I recently had to re-do my fences, built a little outdoor studio to TWF and removed/replanted a tree, ALL to council specs/guidelines and permits etc. So pretty pissed my neighbour just comeas along and starts building this tihing to block the little sunlight I get without even talking to me.

        If I report it'll be obvious who it was, but hes already 3 days into building this thing and unlikely to move it etc. So guess reporting is safest? I dunno

        • +100

          Here's an idea. When the complaint is in and he is found to be in breach, and he asks you "Did you complain?", you say "No, I did not."

          We've all had neighbours that do things they shouldn't. Mine was a local builder. He installed an illegal structure on our boundary. I complained to him. He said, tell someone who cares. I told Council. They cared. He was forced to remove it. We still talk. He knows he was in the wrong.

          Can't stand the people that 'victim blame'. Your neighbour is doing something wrong and people are telling you to suck it up? It's un-Australian to dob / whinge, they will say. No, it's illegal to break the rules.

          • +23

            @oscargamer:

            When the complaint is in and he is found to be in breach, and he asks you "Did you complain?", you say "No, I did not."

            Exactly this. With the way snap send solve works, it literally could be anyone who walks by.

            Hey, OP, what’s the address? I’ll snap send solve it for you.

          • +3

            @oscargamer:

            Here's an idea. When the complaint is in and he is found to be in breach, and he asks you "Did you complain?", you say "No, I did not."

            And just hope he isn't a member on OzBargain (or anywhere else OP may post this) and has seen this post, with the photo.

        • Irrespective of the legalities, how do you get sun at midday if your wall is in the north and blocks the sun (unless it's directly overhead)? As the sun sets in the west, won't it effectively be shining parallel to the roller shutter and not blocked by it?

        • He could also be on ozbargains :)

    • If that is facing West then, as fox jump said, the trees in the background will be in the same shadow line as the roller doorthus having very minimal impact on your sunlight.

      Over time the trees will get bigger, casting a greater shadow, and the roller door will become a non event.

      I get sun from about midday through to mid arvo Nov-Feb-ish. This roller rood will block about half of it.

      Not sure where you are in the southern hemisphere but in my neck of the woods the sun is very high above the horizon at midday and hardly casts a shadow at all.

      • +10

        The trees are further away than they look in the photo, they don't cast shadows until very late arvo and are fully grown. The roller door will cast shadows from 1pm onwards. I manage a project which is able to produce accurate shadow analysis etc. So I've already mocked it up, tested and confirmed it will be blocking about half the sunlight.

        • +4

          That makes sense. Cheers

        • Have you tried bikies?

        • The neighbour could plant a large tree instead blocking more sun.
          What would you do then?

          • @taoz: Do what most average Australians do, poison your fence line with roundup etc which will kill anything within a foot or so of the other side of the fence.

          • @taoz: Its concrete on the other side, so its unlikely. But I had already considered that, and if that were to happen I'd know about it and would have time to either sell up and move before it impacted me. Although if I decided to stay, a tree would be a lot more tolerable than a big roller door.

            • @SkMed: Its hard thing about living in high populated areas.
              Ive had neighbours tree blocking sun and all stuff from there trees going all over my place. Theres little can do.
              People near us have town houses going up which will take away alot of there sun.

              • @taoz: Yeah I'm aware, but I did also take into consideration that the lot next door could be developed into townhouses or something in the future, however I know that the rear part of the property where this is isn't able to be developed to the point where it would block my sunlight here due to regulations etc. the rear has to be setback from the laneway. A tree is really the only legal way the sunlight here can be blocked to the degree the roller door is going to. And if that happened I'd be less annoyed (due to it being legal, and.. well…a tree)

  • +33

    Neighbours are the worst.

    • +4

      I eat mine

      • +3

        If I ever decide to make friends, I hope they are as great as you. Just don't eat me.

    • +3

      No, not at all a good thing.

      His property is also a pretty massive block of land with a huge back yard, I have this tiny courtyard/1 bed unit and part of the reason I bought it was for this small private courtyard and access to sunlight etc.. He could have re-positioned it away from the fenceline and wouldnt be an issue. It's also not a regular length roller door, looks to be a double or maybe larger. The roller part will be sitting at about 3.5m high.

      • -3

        Maybe its the only space that lines up with the driveway on his property?
        Would you rather they file a DA and build an entire garage there that would permanently shade your property (which they are permitted to do).

        • +5

          With a DA I'd be notified about it, be able to make an objection and shadowing is taken into consideration etc.

          • +2

            @SkMed: Not necessarily. We got a DA approved recently and we didn't have to notify anyone.

            • +3

              @jorf: Even if I dont get a say, shadowing to adjacent properties will be taken into consideration. Given that I just planted a tree to fulfil my own Council permit and this door is going to block this tree's access to sunlight almost entirely I'd assume they'd have him build the door further to the west with a permit.

          • +1

            @SkMed: And the council still wouldn't give a toss, his project would still be approved.

        • +7

          This is the biggest property I can afford currently. Even though it's small, I've been pretty happy here as I've made a lot of small space saving type renovations to make it work for me, so had no real need for a bigger place even if I could afford it.

          I literally designed my courtyard and design of my outdoor studio pod, sliding gate and a tree required by council based on angle and access to sun etc. I had to go though months of design iterations just to get it all to fit and be compliant with council regulations… Now the neighbour is throwing up an illegal roller door on his massive multi million dollar property and blocking my access to light… Hardly seems fair given the hoops I had to jump through. He also doesnt even live at the property, its just a big yard used to store construction material and rents out the house out front etc.

            • +2

              @AustriaBargain: The rennovations are already complete, fence and gate have been installed, hammock poles installed, tree has been planted and I have already had my outdoor studio pod built and installed. All designed and built according to council guidelines and access to sunlight. These cannot be moved now even if there were a configuration that would allow sunlight access for myself and the council required tree etc.

          • -2

            @SkMed: Honestly, I’m not seeing any renovations in the picture you have provided.

            • +1

              @iCandy: Fence replacement: $3k
              Studio pod (behind camera) Approx $10k
              Tree removal, permit and replacement with protected tree: $3k
              Removing broken concrete slabs, relocating air con unit, new garden beds, hammock poles etc. Another $1.5k or so.

            • +1
              • @SkMed: Wait so you saw a massive tree almost flush with your wall when you bought the property but you want to make it a point of contention for your precious sun? To me the costs of the tree removal is irrelevant, even if you weren't for your ugly renovations you would still need to remove it for the structural integrity of your building. A 10m high wall between those posts wouldn't shade your dodgy looking studio from the angles of the sunlight you've shown. Did you check all the regulations for that pod since it barely looks permissible, ugly at best (what the heck is that deadbolt at your feet with three hinges at the top???). The pod doesn't look to be secured and what about drainage? If anything the neighbors should be reporting you for those unsightly "renovations". If you want to be this precious, don't live in the city…

        • +4

          You tell 'em AB, STOP BEING POOR! Buy a bigger property, hell, buy 3.

    • Hopefully it's a silent roller door. Some of the old ones make a ton of noise when operated

    • Also this doesn't need approval.

      You are completely wrong here, mate.
      The correct answer depends on the planning schemes and/or overlays that the land is subject to.

      https://www.melbournewater.com.au/building-and-works/floodin…

      If it is a front fence / gate, and the height of the structure is above 1.5m, you may also need to apply for Report & Consent as part of your Building Permit.
      http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/br2018…

      Regulations vary from state to state. I am going by OP's state in their profile.

      Yes you are afforded a right to sunlight but the impact of this is negligible.

      Agreed. OP's arguments about sunlight being blocked is a bit over the top.
      Even if OP submits a Planning Enforcement Application, their neighbour can still work with their local council to apply for a permit retrospectively.

      • I'm confused as to how a flooding map is relevant.
        Yes councils have different planning schemes but very rarely will they stipulate the height of a stand alone garage door or rear fence.
        there's a provision for effectively a full size garage backing onto a laneway so they're hardly going to block a 3m garage door. This would mean allowance for a 4m+ structure to go there.

        If it is a front fence / gate

        This looks to back onto a laneway

        And if the neighbour decides to plant a 4m+ tall tree here they have the rights to do that as well, this would make the small amount of shading caused by the garage door null and void.

      • +4

        Its a rear acces to the property and backs onto a laneway. I know the regulations as I went through it myself last year and had to make adjustments to my own renovations to comply. Regulations are that anything which forms part of the fenceline can be no taller than 2m otherwise a permit is needed. Structures within the property and within 1.5m of the fenceline can be no taller than 2.4m without a permit. This roller door is 3.5m tall so way over and not compliant.

        His property is quite large, so he could have moved the roller door further to the west another 2-3 meters to avoid the situation. After speaking with Council and taking a look at the map they said that would have likely been a condition of a permit for the door given my limited solar access and his large property. I have also planted a (now protected) tree within my courtyard to comply with my own permit to remove a tree which was cuasing damage to my unit, and this roller door is going to block sunlight to said tree now. The tree species was chosen specifically for the limted space, access to sunlight, and so it could be pruned to allow sunlight through to my own property as it matures. Not too sure if it'll survive with the roller door blocking sunlight now though.

    • Neighbour found!

  • +16

    Couple of notes:

    • You do not have a 'right to a view', neighbours can build and block you e.g. beachfront views
    • Buildings within 1m of a boundary usually have to meet strict fire resistance requirements
    • Most significant building works need council approval, and this is big enough to warrant it
    • Neighbours/impacted property owners should be notified of DAs

    Neighbour has already committed funds to the project so they won't be stopping without council intervention. You need to check with council if this is compliant. If it is then you really don't have much hope of changes happening however.

    • +3

      It's not complaint, already checked and he doesn't have a permit.

      • +3

        Some smaller works don't require a permit though. Small verandahs, garden sheds etc

        How did you check? Asking the council, or the neighbour?

        Without knowing your LGA we can't verify if this is considered an exempt development as per your council's guidelines.

        • +18

          Already called and checked with council planning/building/enforcement, there's no permit and confirmed that one is required for a roller door on a fence line. I went through similar process last year replacing my fence so already aware of the regulations. Permit required for fence over 2m. I had to change some of my plans/ideas to comply myself.

          • +95

            @SkMed: Just so we're clear:

            • You already know the proper council regs
            • You have no DA from the neighbour
            • You have every reason to complain to council

            So… complain to the council. We cannot help you further.

            Thankyou for using OzFencingComplaints.

          • @SkMed: What planning schemes is the area subject to?
            Also, is this gate part of a front fence? Then, you will need both a planning permit and a building permit.

          • @SkMed: They could've already had a gate/door in the same place in which case it might not need a permit as it's legacy.

            • @Drakesy: Its a rear gate/fence.

              Anything which is part of the fence has to be no taller than 2m, otherwise a permit is needed. Any other structure needs to be below 2.4m. I know this as I just replaced my own fence last year and had a small outdoor studio/pod built. I wanted the wall of my outdoor studio pod to form part of the fenceline but wasnt allowed to as its 2.4m high, so it had to sit within my propery instead with the 2m fence on the outside. This meant I had to sacrifice a bit of room within the studio to ensure it was compliant. I also wasnt allowed to add an extension to my fence and had to install a sliding gate rather than a swing gate etc.

      • Ask your council whether they need one.

        Or setup a post "anyone work for this council?" and ask them.

  • +3

    Just call your council and make an inquiry. If you chat to your neighbour and then he/she gets a notice, it is pretty obvious it is you. At least now, if he/she gets a notice now, it could be from anyone, of course most likely the left or right neighbour but it could be from some noisy neighbour.

  • +4

    Or just call Council enforcement?

    that

    • toothless tigers

      • +7

        Our local council forced a property owner to completely demolish a newly built house that was too close to the fence line.

        • Ouch.

          • @smartazz104: i was very surprised too…

            it was covered a bit in the local news… then after the decision, sure enough, a month later it was a vacant block again (and still is many years later…)

    • that

      that

      *FTFY

  • +8

    Report it to the council and get them to deal with it. The neighbour is not going to stop now unless they are forced to, given they have paid for it.

  • +2

    Best to try chat to him?

    Yes…. good neighbours are worth shit loads… pissed off and shit neighbours are a (profanity) nightmare.

    • +7

      Well considering he didn't bother to talk to me about it I don't think talking to him now is going to help tbh.

      • +6

        Your neighbour is not gonna stop constructions based on your feelings… dont bother.

        • +4

          Yeah exactly, might as well report and hopefully Council enforcement will have him move the gate more to the west to prevent blocking sunlight.

      • Then do nothing.

  • +3

    Wait for them to finish building it, let them marvel in its creation and the fact that they "got away with it" and THEN report them to council.

    Council will make them take it down at their expense.

    But be prepared to have a salty neighbour forever.

    • +4

      There's a house I drive past every day - a few years ago, he built this DIY trellis-looking thing over his double-wide driveway with some of the thinnest timber i've seen. Then a while later, he put a roof on it. Then almost immediately it developed a massive sag in the middle. Then he put some extra posts in to hold it up, but didn't fix the sag..

      Then a few weeks later, the whole lot was gone. I'm assuming council paid him a visit. Nothing else was rebuilt after that.

      • +3

        I'd like to imagine he was embarrassed at what he had done and took it down himself.

    • +2

      Council will make them take it down at their expense.

      Not always the case. A permit can be applied for retrospectively.

      • +1

        I wonder if such retrospective permits are granted more freely than an original application?

        Ie is it a case of better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission?

        • Depends how much time/money you’ve got to throw at them via legal requests etc but there would be no guarantees.

          Overall, I would suggest pre approval would fair much better.

    • +1

      Such a wasteful and shitty thing to do. The sooner the better

      • So is putting stuff up without council approval.

  • -4

    Let’s be real, this is ozbargain. You won’t talk to your neighbour to actually try and solve the issue, you’ll just whinge to council.

    • +10

      Ah yes, one of those people.

      Mate, the reason people "have a whinge" to council (or the police, or whoever else) is because people are ASS HOLES. You're acting like this neighbour is going to be absolutely gobsmacked that they have upset someone and embarrassed to the point of apologising profusely with gifts for years on end - when in reality they'll tell them to bugger off at best and at worst get into a fight.

      • Or they’ll come to a resolution that will benefit everyone

        • +5

          Just imagine for a minute that you're the neighbour; you can do it if you try. How would you react to OP telling you what he's told us? Would you:

          a) smile cheerfully and say "oh sorry about that, let me reverse everything I have done so far".
          b) tell OP to mind his own business and become bitter about the interaction.

  • +5

    Just call the council.

  • Looks like it was picked up from a demolition job like a small industrial shed.
    He might cut it down to suit or he might not or he could be thinking about it or maybe not.

    Either way it's going to look pretty plucking stupid having a free standing roller door off the street.
    3 meters high! Whats he turning the place into a bikie gang house or a massive crop harvest. That'll get councils attention.
    Or you could pop your head over the fence and say "Hey what's going on over here Sunshine".

  • +2

    What a piece of shit! Total eyesore as well. Definitely call council. Highlight the fact it’s 3m tall as front fences usually have height limits and say you think he might even be putting a roof on it (as soon as it sounds like a proper structure they get more curious).

    If they don’t do anything your best bet is to at least make sure he uses wd40 so it doesn’t squeak but you’re probably stuck with it…

    • +1

      WD40

      No. Grease. Better yet, can of petrol and a match so there's nothing left to squeak.

    • -3

      Look at those reno pics, the whole neighborhood is probably an eyesore. OP just as guilty for ugly structures

      • Lol, you're kidding right? When I bought the unit the fence was falling over and the outdoor space was full of broken and uneven concrete slabs, full of weeds a tree damaging the building foundations and completely pointless and unusable. Took weeks just to dig up all the roots which were stretching 15 meters to my neighbours courtyard and damaging her concrete too.

        I've turned it into a small usable space with a custom built studio pod, space for a hammock when using solo, or space for 2-3 friends to have a bbq with, replaced the fence, added external laneway access for a bike, and planted all native's and appropriate plantings for the space/sunlight, and added natural and permeable ground surfaces (granatic sand and bluestone pavers)…

        I'd hoped to put in decking, but its not permitted this close to a fence line.

        Suppose you prefer a completely concrete courtyard or something?

      • Mate, that’s just nasty. Doesn’t matter if you’re in the richest fanciest suburb or the poorest most pedestrian suburb. Everyone has the right in their HOME to peace and respect from their neighbours when it comes to noise or the building or monstrosity eyesores.

        • monstrosity eyesores

          haha that pod is the definition of a monstrosity eyesore.

  • Is it likely Council would simply fine him and allow him to continue?

    Depends on the council but many will make them rectify.

    I had a mate who bought a property that was about 5 years old, that had like 90% concrete in the front and back yards. Council did a drone survey, saw it, and contacted them saying that it wasn’t compliant with planning scheme (not enough permeable surface) and that they had to return it back to the way per the approved permit.

    • +1

      Councils have so much power. It's their land they should be able to do whatever they want unless they disturb a neighbour

      • I mean, in this case it’s actually a state provision in the Victorian planning scheme that requires a % of permeable land so that in the case of heavy rains, properties and roads don’t flood. It’s actually a really important clause.

        • Instead of improving their drainage systems they want people to use their land as drainage. Cool.

          • @DrScavenger: Well it’s actually pretty logical.

            In established areas in Melbourne, typical block sizes were 400-700m2. The house/other non permeable surfaces only usually took up maybe 200-300sqm of it, and many houses were also built on stumps, so below it is somewhat permeable.

            Now these blocks are being subdivided, so in the same 400-700 area, it’s no longer 1x200-300sqm house, it’s 2-6x100-200sqm houses, and they’re all on slabs (they’re also now being built double storey, when previously they were single storey, so you have less ground floor footprint).

            So houses/non-permeable surfaces were previously occupying 40-50% of the land but are now occupying 50-80% of the land.

            Multiply this across most middle-suburbs and you have a massive problem that drainage alone cannot solve.

            Roads are also part of this problem for sure, by taking away possible permeability, but in these middle suburbs, the road network hasn’t changed at all in 50+ years, but the density of non-permeable housing has.

            The earth is naturally permeable and should be able to cater for natural weather like rain, so to expect extra drains and pipes to have to solve these problems is a bit over engineered. Just make sure you don’t over build non permeable surfaces, and it’ll all be fine.

    • I’m amazed actually. You’d be rare to find a council here in Victoria prepared to take on that fight unless it was a very recent thing done.

      • I am in Victoria…

        • Wow. Totally shocked as have had a bit to do with local councils. Most I’ve dealt with won’t touch this stuff as too much drama. I guess if it’s a flood risk maybe that’s what drove them to take action.

  • +6

    I'd love to see a picture of this studio pod that has been mentioned half a dozen times. Sounds interesting.

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