Fined for Rear Passenger Not Wearing Seat Belt When Engine in Stop Condition

Lright195104 on 13/08/2023 - 20:35

Long time lurker and have always been benefited from this group, first time posting, so please go easy :)

I have faced a weird situation recently. Was asked to stop the car for random drug test near Melbourne CBD area. I moved to the testing lane and then stopped the car near the officer to participate in the drug test. My brother wearing a thick puffer jacket was sitting in the rear passenger seat. While the engine was in stop state, for 30secs he opened the seat belt to take the puffer jacket out, as it was hot inside.

The officer spotted and handed over 4 demerit points and $396 fine. I politely said, engine was in stop condition when seat belt was opened, but he did not listen.

Already requested a fine review and has been denied. Shall I contest at court or accept that at fault and pay the fine?

P.S. Financially doing difficult at the moment. Hence reaching out. Please help me with your opinion / suggestion.

Poll Options expired

  • 46
    Could have been given a warning.
  • 29
    At fault, pay the fine.
  • 568
    Contest at court and might be able to win.
Automotive

Comments

  • Protractor on 13/08/2023 - 20:56
    +10

    OP Is there any 'ethnicity' issue in this incident?

    • [Deactivated] on 13/08/2023 - 21:26
      +1

      Why would this be relevant?

      • kerfuffle on 13/08/2023 - 21:39
        +5

        It's a fair question. You can tell English isn't the OP's first language and sadly there are still racist people out there.

        • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 21:42

          I don't understand, how English is not my first language. But thanks for commenting. :)

          • kerfuffle on 14/08/2023 - 10:52
            +22

            @right195104: If English was indeed your first language, you would have said 'currently experiencing financial difficulties' instead of 'Financially doing difficult'. You unbuckle and buckle a seatbelt, not open a seatbelt. You wrote 'engine was in stop condition'; a fluent English speaker would have written 'I turned my engine off'. These examples made me assume English is at least your second language.

          • ak47wong on 14/08/2023 - 15:07
            +1

            @right195104: I think kerfuffle actually meant Australian English. Your first language may well have been English, but not of the local variety. There are telltale signs in just about every sentence in your post. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

        • [Deactivated] on 13/08/2023 - 22:02

          I'm surprised at the question considering the discussion thus far.

          Also, there is the propensity for some accounts on here to claim they are of a certain ethnicity/vocation/sex, etc that keeps ever-changing depending upon the thread.

      • Protractor on 13/08/2023 - 22:12

        Your naivety is kind of cute

      • coffeeinmyveins on 14/08/2023 - 10:16
        +1

        Because people have preconceived bias and cops are no exception to this?

        It's not too hard to admit that cops will treat people different based on their class, ethnicity etc.

        • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2023 - 11:31

          Funny you should mention this.

          I've been insulted by a number of accounts on here using sexist slurs. I've never encountered this crap elsewhere yet I consistently see exchanges on here between certain members who like pointing out the 'preconceived bias' that people have as if it's an excuse to go around making racist/sexist, etc attacks because 'you know, whadya gonna do …. it's inherent'. How about making a conscious effort to stop perpetuating the crappy behaviour?

    • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 21:42
      +1

      I am asian. Not sure if that makes any difference.

        • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 21:58

          What? care to explain?

          • [Deactivated] on 13/08/2023 - 22:03
            -4

            @right195104: Don't worry - you've confirmed my query.

            • Tomhaigh1 on 13/08/2023 - 22:18
              +6

              @[Deactivated]: Asian -> south asian -> indian :D

              • [Deactivated] on 13/08/2023 - 22:24
                -2

                @Tomhaigh1: Yes! That dude! Couldn't even google properly to get the region right to maintain the facade

                • Kenb0 on 14/08/2023 - 10:24

                  @[Deactivated]: I need to know the context behind this. Got a link?

                  • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2023 - 10:40
                    -2

                    @Kenb0: lol - no link.

              • capslock janitor on 14/08/2023 - 11:39
                +1

                @Tomhaigh1: deep" is common indian name

        • Empharand on 15/08/2023 - 16:36

          You losing the plot or something? I'm sure OP knows his own ethnicity..

          • [Deactivated] on 15/08/2023 - 16:43

            @Empharand: Have you lost your plot …. of land? The creatives like claiming a vast array of different ethnicities to spruik their work.

      • morse on 14/08/2023 - 02:16
        +13

        Unfortunately it likely does make a difference, impossible to say for sure but there is still a lot of racism around and the police officer may have a conscious or unconscious bias against Asian people and be more likely to impose a fine for something like this. He may also be an arsehole to everyone.

        A lot of people, including Asian people say to me that there’s not as much racism around these days, but as a white person I can assure you some other white people feel comfortable sharing their prejudices with me - and it’s really quite disgusting and unsettling.

        • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2023 - 10:51
          +1

          ….. some other white people feel comfortable sharing their prejudices with me - and it’s really quite disgusting and unsettling.

          Yes, the racist prejudices that are shared on here are quite disgusting and unsettling. It's amazing how the cloak of anonymity allows some folks to unleash their inner racist with wild abandon …. like ….a lot …. A LOT!

        • RockyRaccoon on 14/08/2023 - 12:03
          +1

          And many also confuse someone making a Racial comment is making a Racist comment.

          Saying someone from one race, using a word in one particular way doesn’t mean thats a racist observation. It’s a racial observation. Racism is indicating it a derogatory way.

          • Autonomic on 14/08/2023 - 19:13
            +3

            @RockyRaccoon:

            Racism is indicating it a derogatory way.

            If you're assuming something about someone because of their race, it's racist. Doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.

        • ssfps on 15/08/2023 - 02:15

          but as a white person I can assure you some other white people feel comfortable sharing their prejudices with me - and it’s really quite disgusting and unsettling.

          Morse, those jews and italians aren't white, okay?

          • morse on 17/08/2023 - 09:56

            @ssfps: Only commenting on my experiences @ssfps :)

      • Protractor on 14/08/2023 - 10:15

        If you'd answered "well I'm not Anglo".
        You'll have confused less ppl. Particularly those who want to preserve dominant paradigms.

      • Eeples on 15/08/2023 - 07:41

        I think what makes a difference is compliance.

        Did anyone in the car exhibit a sh!tty attitude for being stopped at any time including when the seat belt was mentioned by the police officer ?

  • Tomcruise on 13/08/2023 - 21:00

    Ask (OSR) for a copy of the penalty ie: Part "A" as it will have the officers notes of what he believes happened. Or ask them to verbally read them out.

    Then tell us what the officer said happened.

    As if you are parked ie: vehicle stationary (out of gear) and not in the line of traffic, technically you are PARKED.

    • DogGunn on 13/08/2023 - 21:30
      +1

      As if you are parked ie: vehicle stationary (out of gear) and not in the line of traffic, technically you are PARKED.

      Park is defined as: includes stop and allow the driver's vehicle to stay (whether or not the driver leaves the vehicle);

      I'm not sure that would work.

    • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 21:48

      Would you please clarify who is the OSR? I have no idea.

      • Grunntt on 13/08/2023 - 22:07
        +2

        From 31 July, the NSW Office of State Revenue (OSR) and the State Debt Recovery Office (SDRO) are called Revenue NSW.

        Seeing as you mentioned that it happened in Melbourne the equivalent is probably Fines Victoria.

  • bobbified on 13/08/2023 - 21:21
    +4

    While the engine was in stop state

    When you say "stop state", do you mean that the engine was off because of the engine start-stop functionality (ie, car still in gear and it'll start itself when you release the brake) or did you put the car in P and turn the engine off? If it was the earlier, then you can't really say you were 'parked' because you weren't. If it was the latter, then you might be able to argue that you were actually "parked".

    Also, would you happen to have failed the attitude test? lol

    • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 21:31
      +1

      Car in P and engine was shut down.

      I showed no attitude to the officer, just requested politely. He seemed to have a bad day with not many failing drug tests and was not ready to listen. :)

      • bobbified on 13/08/2023 - 21:43
        +12

        If it's worth your time, take it to court. I think any half-reasonable magistrate would toss out the fine. (Unlike a parking fine where it's just money, the 3 or 4 demerit points alone for me would be worth a day in court).

      • dojomojo on 14/08/2023 - 11:49
        +2

        (X) Doubt - who would turn their engine off when in line for a road side drug test?

      • Eeples on 15/08/2023 - 07:42
        +1

        What did you request ?

        • right195104 on 15/08/2023 - 08:33

          I requested the officer to give a warning and let us go. He was not willing to listen. :(

  • Bugs Bunny on 13/08/2023 - 21:27
    +11

    A similar situation happened to me about 12 years ago. Was pulled over for RBT, wife was in the back seat next to our baby who was crying. When we were pulled over, wife took off her seatbelt to get closer to comfort baby. [Female] police officer, who seemed to be on some sort of power trip, handed me a fine and demerits for her not wearing a seatbelt, despite explaining the situation to her. Sucked it up and paid as didn't want to chance it in court (obviously, my review request was denied as they almost always are).

    • Protractor on 13/08/2023 - 22:13
      +9

      Gee . Police on a power trip. Well I never

    • capslock janitor on 14/08/2023 - 11:42

      whats point of review request?

      whabbout 2nd opinion ?

  • right195104 on 13/08/2023 - 22:02
    +3

    H there - Does anyone know or point me to any earlier thread where I can get to know, how much does it cost to contest this fine in court? I have never faced this situation before or anyone in our family.

    Hence trying to take an informed decision.

    Much thanks.

    • JimmyF on 13/08/2023 - 22:15
      +6

      how much does it cost to contest this fine in court?

      It'll cost more than the fine if you have to pay someone to help you, thats for sure.

      Sure you can do it all yourself, but run a high risk of losing and getting court costs + the fine. Yes going to court might mean you pay court costs as well as the fine.

      Basically you can't go in and say it was unfair etc. Technically your passenger did break the law by removing the seat belt when the car wasn't parked. Parked is more than the engine off, it has to be within a parking area and hand brake on. aka you can't stop at traffic lights, put the car in park and claim you are 'parked' to play with your phone/remove your seatbelt.

      So as it seems this hasn't happened, it'll come down to the judge on the day if they think it was unfair or not to give you a warning. But if they play by the book, the fine sticks.

      As above, I do agree it was pretty low to be fined in this case if it happened as you said.

      • mhz on 14/08/2023 - 08:48
        +3

        High risk of losing?
        I reckon you have a high risk of it being thrown out or the police withdrawing it if you ask for it to be deal with by the courts.
        The court system is so backed up at the moment they might just drop it.
        I recently requested the court deal with a fine I got for supposedly running an amber light and in the end the police dropped it

        • JimmyF on 14/08/2023 - 09:46

          High risk of losing?

          If you get to the court stage, then yes you have a high risk of losing as legally the OP friend was in the wrong. It will depend on the judge on the day, if the cop shows up etc. Its 50/50. Is it worth it over a sub $400 fine?

          I recently requested the court deal with a fine I got for supposedly running an amber light and in the end the police dropped it

          Did you run an amber or a red? As running amber is technically legal.

          • gaosong2101 on 15/08/2023 - 20:02

            @JimmyF:

            Is it worth it over a sub $400 fine?

            It depends on whether OP wants to maintain a clean driving record. If he already has something on his record, his chance of winning or getting leniency is significantly lowered.

            If what OP said is true and he has a clear driving record, I think it's definitely worth to challenge in court. If he doesn't, it would be pretty difficult when he wants to challenge next time if something else minor (e.g. running a yellow light) happens.

    • capslock janitor on 14/08/2023 - 11:43

      go on judge judy
      or
      https://youtu.be/499HjMqsKNc

    • MorriJ on 14/08/2023 - 18:51

      Does anyone know or point me to any earlier thread where I can get to know, how much does it cost to contest this fine in court? I have never faced this situation before or anyone in our family.

      https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/failure-wear-seatbelt
      https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/penalty-units

      Challenging it in court opens you up to:
      - Criminal conviction of the offence
      - 10 penalty units (fine of $1923.10)
      - 3 demerit points

      Not suggesting you would lose the case, but there is a prospect of the above if you do lose the case. It is open to the judge for you to receive the above.

  • Grunntt on 13/08/2023 - 22:11
    +1

    Does anyone know or point me to any earlier thread where I can get to know, how much does it cost to contest this fine in court?

    Can't see anything about cost but this will give you an idea of how you go about it.

    https://online.fines.vic.gov.au/Your-options/Dispute-your-fi…

  • leiiv on 13/08/2023 - 23:57
    +1

    Are you (the driver) allowed to get out of the car while stopping at the testing lane? If you are, then it is technically parking.

    • Muzeeb on 14/08/2023 - 00:24
      +3

      No. You must remain in the vehicle with your seatbelt on.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 14/08/2023 - 00:23
    +2

    got to be in Victoria Pigs here will fine you for anything

    • Protractor on 14/08/2023 - 09:58
      -1

      How much do they fine neo nazis?

      • Phoenixzeus on 14/08/2023 - 11:51
        +2

        Why would they fine their own?

      • Jaxy on 14/08/2023 - 11:57
        +1

        NNs get police escort

        • Trying2SaveABuck on 14/08/2023 - 12:12

          NNs get police escort

          So does Dan Andrews and his wife who or may not have almost killed a cyclist

  • screensaver on 14/08/2023 - 00:58
    -2

    Someone stole my numberplate and instead of going straight to the office to get it replaced I still drove the car to do an errand. A cop pulled me over and when I explained someone stole my plate he wrote me two tickets, he said I never indicated when changing lanes, thats why he pulled me over. I knew that wasnt true but I had buckleys of defeating it as it was my word against his. He wanted to be sure to get his fine in. I paid those off with a payment plan.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2023 - 01:25
      -1

      Someone stole my numberplate …

      What about the other one?

    • Muzeeb on 14/08/2023 - 08:01
      +6

      Please start a new thread with the full story Pam. I will read it with a cup of tea.

  • try2bhelpful on 14/08/2023 - 07:20
    +9

    It is the law but I do think you were dudded. When we got pulled over for a breathalyser my Grandmother didn’t have her seatbelt on but they just told her to put it on.

  • djsweet on 14/08/2023 - 08:43
    +7

    If you take it to court I think you are unlikely to get a greater penalty. Have a good chance of getting off as well. Imho as an official ozbargain advise giver.

  • JafferMoney on 14/08/2023 - 09:21
    -1

    What an a**hole of a cop…no wonder they get called pigs.

  • Fredfloresjr on 14/08/2023 - 09:26
    +1

    Typical Sh***** cop. Greedy bastard. Do you have dashcam video? Post his face.

  • cnmarine on 14/08/2023 - 09:27
    +1

    Why did you switch off the car for a RBT? Don't you just stop/blow and go? It's less time than the red light.

    • askbargain on 14/08/2023 - 09:46
      +1

      he knew he wouldn't be going after the test

    • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2023 - 10:01

      ….. random drug test …..

      Maybe these take longer than a RBT

    • kerfuffle on 14/08/2023 - 10:53
      +2

      In NSW, you'd need to turn it off if you want to produce your Digital Driver Licence so they can't get you for using your phone while 'driving'

      • syousef on 15/08/2023 - 15:28

        Not true. You can't show it unless you're asked though.

        https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l…

        • kerfuffle on 15/08/2023 - 15:37

          Stationary and parked have different meanings. Stationary can mean stopped at the traffic lights. Parked is when your engine is off.

          • syousef on 15/08/2023 - 21:27
            -1

            @kerfuffle: Did you even bother to look at the link I provided? There's even a Youtube video linked. And it's the Service NSW website, not some 3rd party site.

  • drewbytes on 14/08/2023 - 09:43

    I think what’s more likely, is you pulled in to the site, the cop saw him putting on the seatbelt and thought/assumed he never had it on to begin with. There’s 3 sides to every story.

    • djsweet on 14/08/2023 - 09:58

      I doubt "thought/assumed" is an accepted legal basis for conviction.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 14/08/2023 - 10:17
        -1

        Cops are excempt from this, they can do whatever they want

        • Protractor on 14/08/2023 - 10:20

          That certainly appears to be the case.

  • pharkurnell on 14/08/2023 - 09:54

    How are you going to prove anything in court?

    Your word v the bacon? Who do you think wins 220398402934809% of the time?

    • Herbse on 14/08/2023 - 11:05

      Bodycam

  • trapper on 14/08/2023 - 10:06
    +3

    Has your brother offered to pay the $396?

  • Zapwap on 14/08/2023 - 10:13

    Wow this could be one of the best examples of wrong time, place and cop..

    On the spot handed fines usually have less a chance to get waived in the court. But, taking chance is the only thing that you can do now, so go for it.

    I don't think you need to pay anything if you're representing yourself in the court. Explain the situation and see if the judge sees the way you want to see it.

  • Drakesy on 14/08/2023 - 10:44
    +2

    Damn, that police officer was having a bad day, probably pissed they weren't picking up any drink drivers.

  • ozboygsl on 14/08/2023 - 10:48

    contest and get the other person to either be there or supply a stat dec. also would help to make a formal complaint { the scum investigate themselves, so while the investigation will be sabotaged before it begins, a lot of magistrates will take that into account}- always important to film interactions with these scum

  • squashedfrog on 14/08/2023 - 11:01
    +6

    I got pulled over for speeding, and parked my car legally (turned off engine on the side street).
    One of my kids in the back seat put her arms out of the child seat harness whilst waiting for the police officer to approach the car. The police officer noticed the arm outside the harness when speaking to me through the window and also ticketed me for "unrestrained passenger". Appealed but declined.

    • Breno785au on 15/08/2023 - 11:21

      Did you notice that before or after the officer arrived?

  • Herbse on 14/08/2023 - 11:05
    +3

    Cop should have his bodycam on. If it looks like the passenger was in the middle of taking a jacket off, then fine revoked. If he was sitting there doing nothing then it's up to the judge to decide based on your appeal and any relevant history.

  • Deals For Days on 14/08/2023 - 11:19
    +2

    Obviously I don't think you should be fined for that, sounds like a typical power trip cop.

    I assume, the argument in court would be, however, that when you're in an RBT lane you're still 'in traffic' and, say another vehicle were to rear end your car or the one behind you in the RBT lane, then your passengers would be far better off with their seat belts still on. Because of this argument, I think it's hard to say whether you'd win in court. If it was just momentary that your brother had his belt off, I think your chances would be good though?

    Regardless, very typical (profanity) cop move, doesn't surprise me lol

    • rave75 on 15/08/2023 - 15:51

      Then the cops would be in much higher risk because he is standing "in traffic".

      When I get asked to show my digital license in NSW, I put my car in P and turn off the engine before taking my mobile off the cradle. If by definiton I am still "in traffic", I would've gotten a fine for holding a mobile phone while in traffic?

      • Deals For Days on 15/08/2023 - 17:27

        I mean, yes, they are at risk, have you not seen the dozens of videos of traffic cops getting injured on roadside lol?

  • sauce2k on 14/08/2023 - 11:55
    -1

    FTP

  • Jaxy on 14/08/2023 - 11:57
    -1

    What an (profanity) pig, that was categorically unreasonable for them to ticket YOU because of something someone else did. I would argue my case before a judge out of principle.

    • Gdsamp on 14/08/2023 - 12:10
      +3

      driver is responsible for passenger seatbelts

    • Aureus on 14/08/2023 - 12:25

      Not liking a law isn't a viable defense.

  • simplerick on 14/08/2023 - 13:14

    Who here can explain the difference between parked and stationary, law talk?

    I would like to think the OP could argue that his vehicle was parked on the side of the main road, under the instruction of the police officer, as my understanding of a parked vehicle is "Parked vehicle means any vehicle which is not in motion and which is not under control of the driver"

    Read this interesting post from Whirlpool about someone "Parked" and greeted by an officer while on their mobile phone

    https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2022766

    Also, how about those situations where you need to pull over due to an accident, or emergency and you need to disembark your vehicle, that would require you to unbuckle your seatbelt, right?

    • xylarr on 15/08/2023 - 18:48

      I wonder what would happen with an electric car? My car can be "parked" with the airconditioning on - you might even hear the compressor going. The airconditioning can even run when I am not in the car to keep the cabin temp from going too high. The only way to properly turn off the car is to dive into the menus and select turn off. Then you leave the car and wait several minutes for it to disconnect the high voltage battery. But if you wait long enough, it will automatically turn its self on to check various things periodically - such as to recharge the 12 volt battery.

  • simplerick on 14/08/2023 - 13:25

    From a UK website, not sure if the definition of parked is considered the same here. https://thriftyfamily.co.uk/legal-definition-parked-car/

    What defines a car as parked?

    You’re deemed to be parked when you stop for longer than ‘necessary’ for say, unloading or unloading, or when setting down and picking up passengers.

    Also when you stop for 5 minutes or less for another reason, your vehicle is seen as ‘parked’ and not just ‘stopped’.

    Even when you pull over to answer a phone, check out your GPS or wait to let someone get in your vehicle, you’re seen as parked!

    The only time this rule won’t apply is when you’re stopped at a red light or waiting at a junction!

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