Engineered Stone Banned in Australia

Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:16
Last edited 14/12/2023 - 12:55 by 1 other user

So, the latest news is that engineered stone has been banned in Australia, as of next year.

Very sad for the workers, I really feel for them. But, it's not made clear in the article why the stone is dangerous, even with appropriate PPE. But it is what it is.

So we renovated the kitchen in our previous home and used this product, and it was absolutely stunning, just beautiful.
We have just bought a new place and it will require renovation. So I may need to find an alternative. Laminate: not an option, as I understand undermount sink does not work with laminate.

Timber: Not sure about undermount sink in this case. And how is hygiene? Timber chopping boards are out in our household, and they can be easily replaced every 6 months. Yes, you're not chopping on the bench top, but 10 years of use is a long time. Just looking at our dining table after 10 years, and that gets used no where near as much use as the bench top.

Natural stone: I think this stains very easily, and cost prohibitive.

Porcelain: looking online they seem to have a similar appearance to engineered stone. More expensive, but hard to find details on cost.

Stainless steel: I don't want my house looking like a prison or a commercial kitchen.

Any other ideas?

EDIT: And what are you experiences with them?

Home & Garden Engineered Stone

Comments

  • Muzeeb on 14/12/2023 - 08:21
    +50

    On a positive note I believe Caesarstone is owned by Harvey Norman 🎻

    Any other ideas?

    Don't undermount your sink.

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:27
      +1

      Yes, a great idea, but I wouldn't go back to an overmounted sink, after the convenience of the undermounted one.

      Also, we did explore the idea of laminate at our previous place, and the result would have been undesirable. Bunnings (Kaboodle), told us because we had a breakfast bar, one exposed edge would have to be non-factory to suit our dimensions, and so it would be a different edge shape, and we would need to finish it ourselves with a strip of laminate finisher. New kitchen will probably have similar issues.

      Edit: and great news about the HN part, but surprised, I would have assumed it was a USA owned company / product.

      • jellykingdom on 14/12/2023 - 08:52
        +9

        Don't go through Bunnings. Any kitchen wholesaler will get you a 900mm wide (or more) with machined edge on any sides you want

        • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 09:05

          So they can cut it to any specific dimension and finish it at the factory?

      • drprox on 14/12/2023 - 21:46
        +3

        Flush mounted sink. We over mounted but it is a Franke sink so not cheap and super fine. It's stunning.

    • KaTst3R on 14/12/2023 - 09:44
      +7

      HN doesn't own Caesarstone. They are just a distributor of the product but it will hurt them big time.

      • Muzeeb on 14/12/2023 - 09:48

        Ohh ok. My memory is failing me then.

      • jv on 14/12/2023 - 12:04
        -5

        HN doesn't own Caesarstone.

        proof ?

        • KaTst3R on 14/12/2023 - 15:00
          +9

          I don't need to prove a negative, so it is on you or whoever that makes that positive assertion to prove they are a shareholder. Enjoy…

            • KaTst3R on 14/12/2023 - 16:16
              +4

              @jv: Such a rare moment to see you put out some smiley / laughing emojis. I must have done something right today.

            • cameldownunder on 14/12/2023 - 22:20

              @jv: What Have you done to JV, where is he, who are you?

            • wgo on 15/12/2023 - 13:20
              +6

              @jv: Had to post to prove you wrong, because you're such a knob:

              https://www.harveynormancommercial.com.au/caesarstone. HN's site states "Caesarstone is a leading manufacturer of premium quality quartz surfaces.". If you look at the company referred to, ie Caesarstone, you'll see it's based in Israel (see it's Wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarstone). Thus, HN is merely an Au distributor of Caeserstone (the company who manufactures and owns the IP in Caesarstone) products. I assume you struggle with basic logic so I thought I'd facilitate inclusivity by aiding someone as challenged as yourself understand how simple manufacturer-wholesale-retail distribution relationships work.

              And OP above is correct - if you're making an assertion, you should prove it.

              • jv on 15/12/2023 - 13:23
                -7

                @wgo: Nope you're wrong.

                • wgo on 15/12/2023 - 13:24
                  +2

                  @jv: proof?

                  • jv on 15/12/2023 - 13:25
                    -6

                    @wgo:

                    proof?

                    I just did…

      • CocaKoala on 15/12/2023 - 08:39
        +1

        it will hurt them big time.

        ❤️

      • ajr5k on 15/12/2023 - 13:18
        +1

        Every cloud has a silver lining.

    • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 14/12/2023 - 12:09
      +34

      "But, it's not made clear in the article why the stone is dangerous, even with appropriate PPE."

      Summary:
      The current 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) workplace exposure standard (WES) (i.e. the current legal limit) for respirable crystalline silica (RCS) is 0.05 mg/m3. The limit of RCS you need to breathe in over an 8-hour day is about a match head of RCS. This equates roughly to some one asking you to find one pinch of salt in an office meeting room (~13 m3).

      A half-face P2 respirator will protect the person to 10x times the RCS TWA WES.
      A full-face P3 respirator will protect the person to 100x times the RCS TWA WES.

      You must have no facial hair for any close-fitting respirator to work. You must be fit tested for that respirator to ensure it works for your face. It's not just slapping on a mask and "she'll be right mate".

      Engineered stone workers can be exposed to levels over 400x times the RCS TWA WES if they are doing things like dry cutting or using dirty water to control dust generation. Why? Due to the bench top material being up to 95% RCS and the high energy process involved in cutting (remember the match head….). That means that even with correct PPE, there are still workers out there getting adverse health outcomes.

      What's the main issue here? The earth's crust is 90% SiO2 (silica). Most building materials will contain SiO2. When you cut cement, natural stone, mortar, tiles, bricks, fibre cement sheeting etc etc, you can create RCS in the process. It's about eliminating the risk. Where Victoria has made an early mistake was in their definition of "Engineered or artificial stone" being >40% RCS. So now there are "Safe" stone products with 40% RCS in them (still potentially going to cause harm).

      • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 12:53

        This is some interesting stuff, do you have a source where I can read more?

        • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 14/12/2023 - 23:17
          +39

          Yeah, um….. your lungs are not a small part of your health……. It's an incurable, relatively untreatable, progressive and often fatal disease.

          Workers in the artificial stone industry were being diagnosed with as little as one year in the industry.

          Put it this way. Take a straw, block your nose and breathe in and out normally for as long as you can handle it. That's what later-stage silicosis is like.

          The only options are lung transplants for a select few, and of those, a large number will die from complications from the transplant (you replace one chronic illness with another).

          The clincher is: It's 100% preventable.

        • Jolakot on 15/12/2023 - 11:38
          +3

          Retire 10 years earlier, die 30 years younger, sounds like a deal with the devil doesn't it?

        • scrambledeggs on 15/12/2023 - 12:55
          +1

          Would you say this same statement about asbestos?

          It's the same thing and the same adverse affect

          RCS is the asbestos of the 2020s

          • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 16/12/2023 - 17:14

            @scrambledeggs: No, its not the same as asbestos. The effects are different. They effect the body differently and as such, cause differing diseases.

      • Antikythera on 16/12/2023 - 00:39
        +1

        You must have no facial hair for any close-fitting respirator to work.

        TIL that Hitler apparently selected his broom moustache, trimming a wider moustache style he wore early in WW1, to better fit gas mask he had to wear later in WW1

      • DustyAfternoon on 16/12/2023 - 05:27

        Where did you see that Victoria has defined engineered stone to be >40% silica content?

        The WorkSafe definition looks to just define it as anything containing crystalline silica as a result of a combination process.

  • geekcohen on 14/12/2023 - 08:23
    +2

    Natural stone: I think this stains very easily, and cost prohibitive.

    If protected correctly, you can avoid stains. But it is something that requires regular "maintenance" so avoid it.

    Its like outdoor stone, tiles, concrete etc. All can be protected by require regular treatment.

  • Nugs on 14/12/2023 - 08:24
    +14

    Stainless steel: 100% most functional, 100% customisable
    .

    • Muzeeb on 14/12/2023 - 09:36
      +45

      Just like parking a cybertruck in your kitchen.

    • ihfree on 14/12/2023 - 14:32

      That's awesome - didn't realise this was an option. The main downside appears to be noise.

      I'd be curious to hear from someone who used stainless steel for a benchtop.

      • crentist on 14/12/2023 - 14:36
        +16

        you can fix the noise by putting some carpet on top

        • ihfree on 14/12/2023 - 14:38
          +1

          Nifty tip. From a quick read, wood underneath is generally suggested, but carpet on top would probably be better.

          • munecito on 15/12/2023 - 11:04
            +1

            @ihfree: The stainless benchtops are usually glued to a piece of ply wood so it doesn't flex under weight and warp around.

            They aren't noisy

      • Nugs on 14/12/2023 - 15:20
        +3

        at our last/first house we did a complete kitchen reno which included using stainless bench with integrated splashbacks. it may not be to everyone's tastes (but what is) but it was undeniably practical as a kitchen.
        yes, the undersides of the bench had a sheet of chipboard adhered (which formed part of the way it sat on the cabinets), the splashback section also had chipboard attached. getting the main 4.5m long bench into the kitchen did cause a couple of paint chips in the lounge wall though.
        I never thought the stainless was noisy. our current kitchen has granite and placing crockery down is quite noisy, even if careful.
        .

      • munecito on 15/12/2023 - 11:02
        +3

        We almost bought this house a few years ago.

        They had a stainless steel kitchen and it was the nicest kitchen I have seen.

        https://i2.au.reastatic.net/600x800-resize,extend,r=33,g=40,…

        We used the same idea and colour scheme for our camper

      • stanstho on 16/12/2023 - 22:16
        +1

        I have It in my apartment kitchen, looks great, works great, no complaints.

    • drprox on 14/12/2023 - 21:47

      100% and you can feel like a chef if that's your drive. I'd have no issues with a stainless kitchen if designed and integrated well.

    • Sensiekatie on 15/12/2023 - 13:17

      It's also good you ever rent the house out. They can put hot pits in it if whatever and there won't be damage.

  • boomramada on 14/12/2023 - 08:33
    +26

    In my understanding, people weren't using appropriate PPE or they were not curring in safer contained environments. Next, they will ban the concreat cutting. Banning is better than educating tradies.

    • jellykingdom on 14/12/2023 - 08:49
      +24

      I think if more tradies had to manually mix concrete from a bag, you would see the same issues. None of them wear a mask

      Concrete cutting is always done with water because i think they at least understand the risk of an exploding saw blade flying out. But if you see a landscaper cutting pavers with a grinder, they are inevitably not wearing any PPE

      Bang on re education. The number of tradies we have to pull up at my factory for not wearing earplugs. Its like 100dB out there, are you a f**king moron?

      The owners of the building companies have a lot of responsibility in this, but they've managed to shift the blame entirely to the product.

      • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:54
        +3

        This is what I don't get, especially with hearing protection!

        When I use power tools, it's a no brainer to me.

        Even if hearing damage wasn't a thing, to me the noise, although tolerable, it is unpleasant, a bit like nails on a chalkboard. I could tolerate it, but I'd rather avoid it. I just don't get it.

        On the other hand, I have likely damaged my hearing through listening to loud music, but at least that was doing something I loved. Not voluntarily enduring something unpleasant.

        • ihbh on 14/12/2023 - 09:30
          +10

          to me the noise, although tolerable, it is unpleasant

          The sad thing is, as your hearing goes, it becomes more and more tolerable and you can stand louder for longer, and it becomes a vicious circle.

      • Ghost47 on 16/12/2023 - 18:10
        +3

        Bang on re education. The number of tradies we have to pull up at my factory for not wearing earplugs. Its like 100dB out there, are you a f**king moron?

        I can see it now; training workshops full of tradies wearing high-vis slouched in their chairs with the arms and legs crossed staring blankly as someone educates them about wearing the right PPE to protect their own health, going in one ear and out the other.

    • AustriaBargain on 14/12/2023 - 09:45
      +5

      If you can be reasonably confident that x amount of people are going to die per year because of something, then is it really worth keeping it? Is OPs "stunning" bench tops worth a human life?

      • jellykingdom on 14/12/2023 - 09:58
        +17

        That argument makes sense until you consider cars, alcohol, cigarettes, flying by aeroplane

        • AustriaBargain on 14/12/2023 - 10:57
          +2

          If we invented a car that had near zero fatality rate, then we may ban regular cars one day too. When we have self driving cars maybe we will. Same with alcohol, if we invent an additive that makes alcohol impossible to overdose on or damage your liver with, maybe law will mandate it one day. And we are already on the way to banning cigarettes, didn't NZ just ban anyone born before 2003 or whatever from ever buying cigarettes?

          • illusion99 on 14/12/2023 - 20:23
            +9

            @AustriaBargain: NZ backflipped on the smoking ban because they realised they needed the money from taxing cigarettes. Money is always more important than lives.
            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/27/new-zealand-sc…

            • berry580 on 15/12/2023 - 00:42
              +3

              @illusion99: A bit of good old US style lobbying from the rich and powerful doesn't hurt either ;)

          • chrismelba on 15/12/2023 - 11:25
            +4

            @AustriaBargain: We could just set the speed limit to 20kmh right? Is it really worth so many lives just to let people get somewhere a bit faster?

            • Plug on 16/12/2023 - 14:45
              +1

              @chrismelba: Ask people living in Wales what that's like.

          • nobro25 on 15/12/2023 - 12:25
            +2

            @AustriaBargain: Instead of inventing a car to be safe. Conversely we just need to make ourselves indestructible and also regenerative. So if we cut off our limbs, as long as the brain is connected to the heart we can survive even if part of our spinal cord is gone.

            Just alter our DNA to have mad regenerative powers and high tolerance on pain. Yes… I know the whole point of pain is a survival thing so we can avoid danger.

            But who needs that if you have mad regenerative powers and your hands and chest have extremely rough skin that can absorb alot of impact.

            1. Regenerative powers ( can grow back a limb within a month), back in a few days with hyper care in the hospital)

            2. Increase pain tolerance.

            3. Have hardened skin on arms, legs and torso. (But still prone to cuts)

          • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 15:49
            +1

            @AustriaBargain: So we'll wait for a revolutionary alternative before banning tobacco or alcohol, but for engineered stone we won't even consider potential solutions and just ban it.

            Obviously the engineered stone industry needs a lobby group or a way to make governments dependant on them…. oh wait not governments, just one.

            • AustriaBargain on 15/12/2023 - 16:22
              +2

              @SlickMick: I've been seeing special son ABC about engineered stone killing people for years now. The industry obviously can't self regulate. It's a fancy bench top, it's not worth a single life. There are plenty of other materials people can use.

          • OzHoneyBadger on 16/12/2023 - 15:20

            @AustriaBargain: We already have, its called walking…

        • toomuchdogfur on 16/12/2023 - 14:06
          +1

          Surprised at the lack of empathy here for the tradies getting silicosis from engineered stone. Yes its safe to cut when all the proper PPE is worn properly… but do you really think all the dodgy building companies around Australia give a crap about providing the proper PPE, let alone educating them on how to do it properly? Take note that the majority of silicosis cases were found in people under 35, and even as young as 20s - if you were a young tradie and your boss told you to cut stone, would you honestly think you would have the knowledge and courage to push back on it?

          Comparisions to cigarettes, alcohol, driving, etc are facetious at best - these are all activities where an individual chose to do something and bears both the benefits and consequences of that choice. But some tradie cutting engineered stone in poor conditions is likely doing so because their boss or client demanded that product - the boss and/or client gets all the benefits and the tradie shoulders all the risk.

          The true solution of course is that every building company and tradie in Australia enforces proper PPE and procedures. Good luck.

          Until that utopia happens, we could at least avoid causing unnecessary suffering and death for a product that has many, many alternatives.

          • Ughhh on 16/12/2023 - 14:56
            +3

            @toomuchdogfur:

            but do you really think all the dodgy building companies around Australia give a crap about providing the proper PPE, let alone educating them on how to do it properly? Take note that the majority of silicosis cases were found in people under 35, and even as young as 20s

            I work in an industry where we deal with similar hazards. Proper PPE is provided, train why and how to fit the silicon dust respirator, yet 2 hours later when we go check on them, some of them have taken it off. Some of the older guys cant be bothered, they've gone through X years of working without proper PPE, so apparently means nothing will eventually happen to him. Younger guys dont think they need to and it's uncomfortable.
            We've had several guys fired on the spot when upper management came in for an audit. You would think thats enough to scare people.

            It's why administrative and PPE controls are the lowest in the hierarchy of controls. Not saying the company is never at fault/to blame. Safety is more than just PPE, it's culture too.

      • boomramada on 14/12/2023 - 11:24
        +10

        The issue is government is trying to think of cutting engineered stones same category as asbestos. Preparing engineered stones should be done in the same controlled environment just as painting a car instead of banning it.

        • AustriaBargain on 14/12/2023 - 11:41
          -1

          And 50 years from now when the home is demolished, how controlled will that environment be?

          • boomramada on 14/12/2023 - 11:47
            +6

            @AustriaBargain: Engineered stone are harmless, just as concrete, cutting is the issue. Tiny silica particles goes to your longs.

            • Nugs on 14/12/2023 - 11:51
              +16

              @boomramada: I don't want silica in my longs, or my shorts
              .

              • bdl on 14/12/2023 - 14:27
                +3

                @Nugs: dusty nugs

                • Nugs on 14/12/2023 - 15:09
                  +2

                  @bdl: could wear HEPA underwear?
                  .

              • zathras on 15/12/2023 - 00:23

                @Nugs: And especially not on your shlong.

              • boomramada on 15/12/2023 - 08:10

                @Nugs: No one does, maybe we all should go live in the woods :)

      • Devastator0 on 15/12/2023 - 09:29
        +1

        Yeah I've seen others across the net having a whinge about this and they want their "stunning" bench tops regardless of the cost to produce it. It's pretty disgusting of people to come out and be saying that they are against this ban because it means that they won't be able to furnish their house properly…completely dismissing the human cost of it.

        • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 15:53
          +1

          So every other government in the world is heartless?

          Should we ban everything dangerous?

          Somehow I don't think it's a road to utopia.

      • Thaal Sinestro on 16/12/2023 - 17:05

        Another product added to the huge list of things banned or massively regulated in the world's most invasive nanny state. Life is inherently risky. For instance, there is a small chance, that in a particular moment, a blood clot will for that will kill you or (worse) turn you into a vegetable. A cell in your body can, after accumulating successively mutations, go rogue, uncontrollably proliferate and spread and kill you. Most people don't worry about it, just like they don't worry about a car accident or their plane crashing.

        There are 8 billion people on our overpopulated planet. We shouldn't be going out of our way to save a small number of lives and artificially extend human lifespan. For an endangered species with a global population of 1000, a single death is a tragedy; but 1 in 8 billion is just a spec of sand on the beach.

    • Exorcist on 14/12/2023 - 18:40
      +1

      Talking like a tradie

    • Fysh on 15/12/2023 - 09:26
      +3

      Also cleaners and other trades were being exposed without it even being known

      • bargain huntress on 22/12/2023 - 01:26

        Yeah they should sue all those tradies who couldnt be bothered reading the safety precautions they had to follow

  • cashless on 14/12/2023 - 08:40
    +2

    Any other ideas?

    Granite

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:51
      +1

      Is that a different material to natural stone? Genuine question, as to a layman like myself, I thought it was the same thing.

      • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:06
        +4

        We looked into this stuff for a kitchen reno at work recently.

        Granite is 45% silica. Engineered stone & natural sandstone are typically 70-90% silica. The common bench top surfaces under 40% silica are marble (2-5%), limestone (2-10%), shale (20-25%) & slate (20-40%).

        Cost of engineered stone is around $800 per sqm, marble is $800 to $2200 per sqm, granite is $700 to $1700 per sqm, Stainless steel is $900 per sqm, polished concrete is $1000 to $1750, timber is $500 per sqm but so shit it's pointless even considering it, slightly less shitty laminate is about $250 to $450 per sqm. Porcelain was about $2000 per sqm as the installation costs were way higher than all the rest.

        Porcelain was by far the most durable and workable option, but it's cost could not be justified in a business case. So we ended up going stainless steel for the bench top and back. Looked a little "industrial kitchen" at first, but it's fantastic in it's practicality for it's use.

        • miicah on 15/12/2023 - 10:17

          timber is $500 per sqm but so shit it's pointless even considering it

          I'd love a timber benchtop. I've seen bamboo ones as well.

          Sure you probably need to sand it back and retreat with sealer every 10 years, but it's easily the best looking out of those options.

          • cashless on 15/12/2023 - 16:12
            +2

            @miicah: Trouble with timber is it absorbs water, stains and then it also dries out and shrinks.
            It looks great to begin with, but ends up looking terrible and becoming unhygienic.
            Unless you want that "old farmhouse" look, it's not worth it

            • Wort on 15/12/2023 - 20:57
              -1

              @cashless: A proper hardwood, oiled with a food safe oil like tung oil will develop a protective and water proof coating. The oil will polymizers into a resin when it cures. Ive had more stains (and harder to remove stains) on the engineered stone bench then on my hardwood bench!

        • selphie on 15/12/2023 - 14:18

          would a stainless steel bench top still be unstained where a slice of lemon for example is left on it overnight?

          • chriskq on 15/12/2023 - 21:49

            @selphie: i remember the rsl i worked at had new stainless steel benchtops added and some coke syrup somehow made its way onto the bench and it stained the stainless steel :/

        • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 15:58

          This issue has been known for years, and most manufacturers are making stone < 40% silica.

          Durability is an interesting concept. Porcelain is tough against stains and scratches, but fragile. It's more likely to crack that the quartz stones.

    • Nugs on 14/12/2023 - 11:54
      +3

      granite sucks
      we've got black with whiteish grain, hard to see where to clean until you touch it. full of chips, no raised lip on edge, sink siliconed in
      .

      • ssfps on 17/12/2023 - 04:58

        Interesting to hear you say this, most people seem to fully buy into the form over function when it comes to kitchens & bathrooms.

        Give me an all-stainless commercial kitchen with a proper double sink and proper splashback any day. (profanity) laminate, (profanity) stone, (profanity) single-sided sinks to avoid cutting into that pretty stone.

    • mroarsome on 16/12/2023 - 21:23
      +1

      Granite can contain up to 45% silica…. which is more than a lot of the engineered stone. We should ban all material containing silica to save the tradies. Time to get rid of all sand from the beaches in Australia.

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