Pentax Q thread - post your pics, thoughts, useful info, etc.

It seems like a bunch of us just bought a Pentax Q from Ted's during their sale so why not have a place to discuss all things related to the Pentax Q. Please post pics and any thoughts you might have regarding the Pentax Q. Feel free to ask questions if you need any help, I'm sure people would be more than willing to help if they know the answer to your questions.

In case you weren't aware, Ted's just got another 100 cameras so check out this post http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/84561 for more info and the link to purchase the camera if you're interested. EDIT: Now they're out of stock.

If you're looking to upgrade the firmware of your camera and lens, please check out the links below:
http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/q_s.html
http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/446/fi…

If anyone has any other useful information, please post it here.


Thanks to cornbeef for compiling these links that were posted on the original thread.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/6/23/pentaxqlenses
http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/category1184_1.htm
http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/pentax/q/steve…
http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/446/fi…
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3334791
http://m.bhphotovideo.com/mobile/search?Ntt=Pentax+q+lens&ta…
http://plazacameras.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darakero/6131874239/in/photostr…
http://www.teds.com.au/oz-bargain
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/09/27/the-pentax-q-digita…
http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/q_s.html
http://www.pentax.co.uk/en/digital-mirrorless/PENTAX-Q
http://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-q/review.html#Key…


Please check out the link below for my review of the Pentax Q.
http://danielpua.tumblr.com/post/36428919280/pentax-q-8-5mm-…

And please check out the links below for some of my pics taken using the Q.
http://danielpua.tumblr.com/post/35844093320/pentax-q-8-5mm-…
http://danielpua.tumblr.com/post/36427786204/pentax-q-8-5mm-…
http://danielpua.tumblr.com/post/36295804753/melbourne-sight…

If you bought one of these, please share your thoughts. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks about the Q. I do like calling it 'the Q' :)

Comments

  • Please upload some of your initial photos later on tonight.

  • They look better than I expected for such a small sensor, hopefully the settings can be tweaked to improve the sharpness. What were the shooting conditions? It looked like a pretty overcast/dreary kind of day…The colours/contrast look kinda flat.

    • No sun whatsoever over here, it's been cloudy all day. I was shooting in lower ISOs so I'll try it out tonight when it's darker. Hopefully the higher ISOs deliver. But yeah, so far so good for something with a compact camera sensor.

      • Still hard to gauge the size of the Q + 01 prime by the photos. So is it pocketable? say if you are wearing a pair of cargo shorts that have fairly large pockets.

        • Yeah it's really hard to get an idea of how small it is based on pics online. I don't smoke so I can't do a direct comparison at the moment but it's probably the size of a cigarette packet with a bit of a bulge for the lens. It actually easily fits in the front pocket of my office shirt but it looks silly. Should be fine with cargo shorts.

  • I guess it's the ozbargain lifestyle but I bought this on a whim because it was cheap, yet I know basically nothing about this level of photography, I have only ever used point and shoot cameras. Can anyone recommend a good resource to use for me to learn how to get this best out of the camera?

    Also, does anyone know a good case for it? I'm hoping for something that can protect it when it's chucked in my backpack?

    • +1

      Teds just uploaded a deal for a case (specifically designed for the Pentax Q) + a 8gb card for $25 + shipping. Apparently it's 50% off. Check out the main thread.

    • If you're unsure, you can always put it on auto for now and try to learn things little by little. Even on auto, it should produce better shots than most compact cameras (although the lens that comes with it doesn't allow zooming). The dial at the front of the camera is pretty useful for assigning different filters and things which you might find fun to play with.

      If you're just starting out, you should be able to look up general tutorials and things as opposed to anything camera specific. Try to get your head around the basics like aperture, shutter speed, ISO, etc. If you want something camera specific, maybe look through the Pentax Q forums.

      http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-q/

      If I come across any other useful info or if I stumble across any cool settings and features, I'll post it here. I remember when I first moved up to DSLRs, it was a little frustrating. But it's a hobby that'll reward you the more you learn about it.

      • Oh really it can't zoom? I guess it not much of a loss, normal compact cameras only do x3 optical zoom anyways right?

        I've actually never own a proper camera (compact or otherwise) before so this will be a first. Need to finish my exams before I can play with it though :(

        • The lens that is part of the deal is a prime lens so yeah it doesn't zoom but you can get a zoom lens for it.

          It's a pretty big change going from something that zooms to a prime lens but I actually prefer shooting with primes because they usually come with a wider aperture (better for indoor pics and low light situations) plus not being able to zoom forces me to think about my composition properly. For the most part, I'm able to find ways to zoom with my feet so to speak.

          And a lot of phone cameras don't really zoom (maybe digital zoom but that sort of doesn't count) so I think people are more used to it than they think.

          Also, why are you even posting here when you still have exams! :p

        • its an interesting camera system but i disagree with the size of the sensor and the crop factor

          basically your 8.5mm lens = 47mm equivalant which makes it too telephoto for my tastes

          i'm expecting a noisy image with poor high iso

          ask yourself how you shoot and i dont shoot 50mm too much and i dont want to purchase a lens that costs more than the camera itself to get 27mm…

          it is a good deal for $199 and the body and build quality will be miles ahead of anything for $199 but i'd imagine a $100 canon ixus would be pretty damn close

          note, i'm coming from a pentax and nikon slr background where my main lens is a 17-50mm f2.8 which is a 25mm equivalent

        • Seems to me that Pentax is targeting a specific group of people with this system otherwise they wouldn't bundle a prime lens with the Q. It's more for enthusiasts in my opinion especially taking into consideration the price they initially put the camera on. If I were a beginner I would look at something else despite Ted's putting a very good deal on the Q. It's a $190 loss if one just ends up getting disappointed with it.

          From the sample shots I've seen on the web jpgs are so-so and that's to be expected more or less (but sensor tech is massively growing day by day - just look at the m4/3 system). I plan to shoot raw for shots that I want to tweak but for snaps jpg is fine.

        • I almost exclusively shoot 50mm, and I don't feel the 50mm to be a telephoto. You could always get the fisheye, which is cheaper than the camera (150ish)

          note, I'm coming from a canon, sony and minolta slr background where my main lens is a 50mm f1.8 prime which is 50mm because I use full frame.

        • My first mirrorless camera was the GF1 and it came with the 20mm pancake. I brought it everywhere and I shot mostly with that for almost a year. I love the 35-40mm focal length. 47mm is a tiny bit longer than that but I've been shooting with it for a few hours and it doesn't feel restrictive at all. I guess it depends on each person's shooting style.

          Also, I think the JPGs from some of the more technical reviews look boring but I really like a lot of the pics I've seen taken using the Q. I pixel peep as much as the next guy but I also try to take into account the type of pictures that a camera and lens can take. Maybe a camera/lens isn't technically perfect but who knows, maybe something about it is allowing the user to take some interesting photos with it. Sometimes that can be enough for me.

  • +1

    I cant wait to whack a trigger on my Q and see how it goes with my lights..

  • Man, those Q zoom lenses are expensive… the Olympus M4/3 45mm Prime is only AUD355 after cash back… I think i will use my C and M42 Lenses for now on my Q… @@

    • Yeah I was mainly interested in the prime lens for the Q since I already have all sorts of M4/3 lenses. I would've been tempted though if the Q lenses were cheap. I might still keep an eye out for the fisheye lens, that seems like a fun lens.

      The Olympus 45mm f1.8 is a really nice lens. Really good value considering how good it performs.

      • Same, the fisheye is the only one i wanna get for the Q besides the standard prime…

        BJ, just wondering, are you familiar with the Fujifilm X-Pro1? Have you used it before?

        • I haven't shot with any of the Fuji mirrorless cams although I'd love to try them out. I've shot with some old Fuji lenses and they have a unique quality to them that I really like so part of me wants to jump ship to Fuji but the M4/3 system has been and continues to be good to me.

        • Also same here, I have a E-PL2 and mainly using manual lenses… It's been great!!! However, I love the color the X series produces and want to jump ship to Fuji as well… But they are not CHEAP…

        • I think if they were M4/3 prices, I would've jumped ship already or at least shoot with both. The lens prices are killer too but they seem like quality stuff.

          If you don't mind getting second hand, it's kinda neat that M4/3 camera prices depreciate massively which isn't the case with the Fuji system. If you keep an eye out for them, you can get some really good 2nd hand bargains on M4/3 gear.

          I bought an E-P2, 17mm pancake, 14-42mm, VF-1, VF-2 and 4/3 adapter for under $500. I sold everything but the body and made my money back so the body was essentially free. I've also bought an E-P1 and 17mm for under $300 and sold the 17mm for $275. They're not the latest and greatest but I'm still taking great looking pics from them so I'm happy.

        • Wow, those are good prices, from eBay? Wouldn't mind a OM-D…

        • Yeah all second hand. Prices for M4/3 camera bodies can get ridiculously cheap sometimes.

        • Lots of cheap gear on forums. Just scour.

      • You would probably be more impressed with an E-PM1+Rokinon FE combo. I used to own one and it was hellafun. From shots I've seen on the web the Q+FE is a bit lacking for me. 17.92mm equivalent against 15mm eq E-PM1+Rokinon. IQ was really good to boot. Of course it's no contest if one is going for the fun factor of the Q :)

        The 45mm 1.8 is really impressive (owned one). The only thing that put me off was the 1/4000 shutter speed limitation on the m4/3 system. Can't shoot wide open in bright daylight without needing an ND filter. That was so cumbersome.

    • With those zoom lens prices, I'll stick with just shooting the Q with the prime and using it like a compact. I don't think the IQ is sufficient enough to justify any additional outlay given the many alternatives out there (e.g. NEX 5N, GX1).

    • Could you tell me where to get Olympus with Cash back deal? Sounds good as I am searching for 4/3 lens for my Olympus

    • nice! have u found the short cut for manual controls? I thought it was very intuitive when i tested it out at Teds..easier than Canon.

      • Do you mean pressing the 'info' button to access a lot of the settings? If so, I thought it was very useful. You can also use the dial to change settings which is nice. I think once I've shot with it some more and have gotten used to how things are done, I should have an easier time.

        The dial at the front of the camera is pretty nice too. I've assigned different filters to it so it should be quick and easy to switch things up while shooting.

  • BJ! Love to get your thoughts of the camera on monday after shooting with it over the weekend.

    • No probs, I'm looking forward to shooting with it some more. I hope you guys get yours already :)

  • I was testing out my Q last night at a restaurant which was lower light than usual. The pics I took of the dishes we're less than ideal- too dark.
    I'm still learning my way around photography so I'm sure it was my fault and not the camera's ability.

    General settings used were aperture mode, f1.9, iso 800 or 1600, auto focus. I'm thinking I should use the exposure compensation button and set it to say +1 EV?

    Otherwise, quite happy with the street pics I took outside around 7-8pm. Took a snap of my girlfriend and camera seems to produce nice bokeh.

    • Please post pics if possible, really wanna see how capable it is with darker environment…

    • Yeah maybe bump up the exposure compensation a little. Or try changing the metering mode to center weighted and see how that goes.

      I'm kinda surprised that it's able to produce as much bokeh as it is considering that it has a tiny sensor. I can't say that it's gonna be for everyone but I really think it's a good camera for $190-200.

      • Bumped up the exposure compensation a bit tonight at another restaurant, seems to do the trick. Photos ok now :)

    • I'm suprised, side by side with my full frame slr my pentax q exposes +2/3 higher than the slr.
      I was thinking I'd be stopping down a little in situations, not the reverse like in your case

      • I'm finding that this is the case during night time scenes where I have to set it to -0.7 exposure comp (day time is fine though). I wonder if the cameras are set up differently. Or maybe it's the firmware? I've upgraded to the latest versions for body & lens.

        • yeah its the same for you yes? it exposes a bit brighter than other cameras.
          it was the same for me on both firmwares, exact conditions.
          exactly +2/3 stops exposed than a canon.

          no big deal though, I'd rather it be a little brighter than usual for casual shooting (as long as the highlights dont blow out too much)
          than having it darker than usual. that'd be a real pain in the ass.

        • Yeah it's no big deal for me. It's easy enough to change settings on it.

  • For those who aren't aware, there's a built in neutral density filter which should be useful for daytime shooting since the 8.5mm lens is at its best at f2.8. Useful too if you just want to be able to shoot at f1.9 without blowing highlights or if you just want to play with longer shutter speeds (like shooting moving water).

    • I'm just wondering, how do you change the f1.9 setting? I have learn't a lot about shutter speeds and ISO. However I can't seem to change the setting where it says f1.9.

      • You have to either be in 'A' (Aperture priority) or 'M' (manual) mode. And then it's as easy as turning the dial on the top right of the camera. If you're in M, you might have to press the 'Av +/-' button (above the green button) to switch from shutter to aperture.

  • +8

    Just wanted to say thanks to bargainjargon, after many months of viewing ozbargain without ever making an account, I have just joined to say how thankful I am for sharing this deal with us.
    I am a freelance photographer using many professional grade dslrs and studio equipment, and I have to say this little gem is AMAZING.
    I have been looking for a street camera or anything just portable and have been looking at olympus pens, sony nex's and the likes, but after grabbing this deal I can say that I am VERY impressed.

    as a "professional" I can say that image quality is the very BOTTOM of my list of priorities, nor do I look for any sweetspots so I won't be reviewing any of that.
    technology has improved vastly and almost any quality will do me fine for $190.
    I do understand if it is a concern for those who only own compacts or if this may be your only camera.
    but let me say if you are tossing up between whatever because of the small sensor size, just go for the pentax Q.
    the only downside I have yet to encounter with the Q is the depth of field that is an endless pit. you will get almost no bokeh unless conditions are ideal, even at f/1.9. do not purchase if bokeh is your main concern.

    However I am so impressed and in love with this camera because of its features (despite being a bokeh whore).
    BLOODY amazing.
    useful features include (in no particular order):

    -HDR (not like conventional point and shoot options, more like DSLR HDR modes with auto and manual hdr)
    -Manual focus assist (similar to magic lantern)
    -built in ND filter (my dslr doesnt even have this - although i do them manually at a cost of $200+ D:)
    -built in shake reduction (not as good as in-lens IS but in such a small form- has to be commended)
    -ability to shoot in jpeg - but in review can save as RAW. (jaws dropped, I didnt know that was possible, I only shoot raw in dslrs)
    -easy menu navigation
    -front dial is SO useful for switching from colour to B&W. (not really used for anything other than that though)
    -full HD film
    -quick zoom (again like magic lantern)
    -HDMI out (havent tried it out but useful if done properly)
    -af assist light (my dslr doesnt even have this, I had to buy a ttl trigger with focus assist)
    -amazing options with flash (you can set it to flash only when extended, hence leaving flash "ON" all the time without it flashing when retracted- makes life alot easier when you deal with alot of off camera flash)
    -built in intervalometer (again like magic lantern)
    -focus peaking (just did the firmware update - however peaking is grey in colour, not blue like in magic lantern and is less easy to use which is a bit of a shame)

    I dont want to start a flame war saying that I use canon over nikon majorly because of the creative options magic lantern (third party firmware- for those who don't know) gives me. the pentax Q features so many options that I am used to on my dlsrs and I am absolutely loving it.
    It seems like I paid in excess of $7000+ for the bokeh, speed and variable focal lengths the lenses give me haha

    ANYWAY so sorry for the long post, I hope it wasnt too boring haha

    • +1

      Hey no problem at all and good to hear you finally join :) Really good to hear your thoughts on the camera as well. I agree with what you said about the features. My faves are:

      • ND filter: I've owned a lot of cameras and I think only the Canon PowerShot G6 had an ND filter. I wish more cameras had it. So useful for shoot wide open during sunny days.
      • Ability to save RAW for the last JPG pic you took: More cameras should have this feature.
      • Intervalometer: Once again, more cameras should have this feature.

      It's crazy that all this and more can be had for $200. And in something that fits easily on your pockets.

      • exactly.
        -having the ability to save those keepers in RAW means that you can take those shots you know you're not going to bother post processing in JPEG and saving that memory space for the 20mb+ RAWS. saves memory on the card AND the hard drive.

        I have owned a Leica X1 and to be brutally honest I see myself picking up the Q instead of the x1 if given the choice.

        obviously the Leica produces AMAZING colour, AMAZING dynamic range, AMAZING sharpness and best of all crop sized sensor BOKEHLICIOUSNESS- stealing that from a particular somebody

        but has NONE of this creative options.

        if I want pure quality for something I would produce printed or sold, I take my professional gear.
        for everything else, theres pentax! -and a spare $2000

        • There you go. It's all about fun, at least for me. There's a time when I take the bigger gear along with me (mostly on holidays) but for every day shooting, give me something easy to carry around and fun to shoot with.

  • +1

    OOOH for those who didnt know, the flash syncs up to 1/2000th of a second. my canon couldnt do that until I bought a HSS flash/radio trigger…

    Geez pentax why dont you produce full frame slrs… I'd jump ship

  • if my Q was shipped friday, could I expect it to arrive on monday?

    • probably yes. I dont know about home delivery, but they emailed me on friday as well saying it was shipped and I got a call saturday morning saying I can pick up in store.
      exactly what I predicted would happen, retailers open on weekends whereas australia post dont. So I got to play with it over the weekend :D

    • Thanks for that, I've added it to the first post.

  • +5

    Just an observation - when bargainjargon originally posted the deal he wasn't sure if anyone would think it worthy. From humble beginnings he has spawned a whole photography sub-culture, (of which I am a proud member). I am an avid photographer, but had never heard of the 'q' before this deal. From the moment I read the post though a nerve was definitely tapped, and once I held it in my hands I was hooked. I just think that this is an amazing process, and there are obviously many others who are in a similar situation to me. Thanks to ozbargain and its newest community :)

  • I have a IXUS 100 IS with CHDK and I've always wanted a DSLR. Should I get this or a Canon DSLR?

    • The Q is not a DSLR alternative, you will be disappointed if you get one thinking that it is.

      My Q is a complementary camera to my Nikon D5100, great for everyday runabout camera, but I will always go back to my Nikon for nicer quality pics.

    • If you always wanted a DSLR then please buy a Canon.
      If you want a very portable camera then get this. But they are in different class as far as picture quality is concerned. Up to you what you really wanted.

    • Thanks for the help guys!

    • If you are after a compact system with IQ that is as good as a Canon DSLR, you can go with the Fujifilm X-Pro1 or X-E1. People claim that their IQ is as good as the Canon 5D MarkII. But be warned that the focus on these two cameras are quite slow compare to DSLR and there is EVF lag as well… plus one hefty price tag to compliment with it…

  • If anyone decides to sell theirs then I am interested (Melbourne) [email protected]

  • it's a great little camera - i will say however, thumbs up to whoever put the USB socket on the BOTTOM of the camera.

    • +2

      Not sure if that is sarcasm?

      • +1

        i thought the capitalisation conveyed it well enough sorry, yes it was sarcasm.

  • +2

    It seems like the general consensus so far is that the Q is a great little camera & definitely worth the $190-$200 outlay.

  • +1

    couple more links here for the Q Jargon. Looks like i'll be one of the first to order and last to receive. youngest in the family so pretty used to that type of thing.

    http://www.pentax.co.uk/en/digital-mirrorless/PENTAX-Q

    http://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-q/review.html#Key…

    • +2

      chin up mate!

  • The Q is impressive. I was doing a few product shots and they turned out far better than expected. ISO 800, jpg straight out of the Q. The high key feature was neat and the post processing effects that I would normally have to do on the computer is right there easily accessible on the Q. I've already ordered 3 c-mount lenses for it. Also gonna be buying a case for it. An E-PM1 is now a casualty lol

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/47814242@N08/8201187353/

    • Nice, how does the IQ stack up against the EPM1+kit or panny 20mm lens?

      • Based on just a few shots from the Q I'd say the E-PM1 has less smudging in higher ISO settings in jpg. There's also a difference in color processing particularly in artificial white balance, the Q being way warmer under tungsten light. Without using scientific tests (I will fail at it miserably anyway), and to my eyes the E-PM1 has better IQ. In real world use though it wouldn't matter because I don't make large prints. Photos never get bigger than 1024x768 after PP'ing them. In every other aspect the Q wins more so now at $190. I hope that makes sense :)

        • Yes, I get the gist of it, being a noob. The reason I asked was because I used to shoot with the EPM1 + panny 20 and it was a nice little setup, but wasn't the best when it came to handling. I'm looking forward to the Q.

        • I totally agree. I had that combo, too. It was great for walkarounds and quick snaps with a pop. My wife still has her E-PM1 and I can see myself using it time and again for landscape shots. I love the vivid colours

          E-PM1 + 12-50mm with a polariser
          http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8457/7914595234_129bb7597d_b.j…
          http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8030/7914887448_77be0a1d9f_b.j…

          Sadly I don't have the 20 anymore :(

        • Well given the EPM1 + P20 setup is almost 3 times the price of the Q, I'm happy to settle for the Q all things considered.

        • You get far less smudging if you're willing to shoot in RAW (although I understand that it's not for everyone). Pics are better in RAW (more noticeable in higher ISOs) but then there's the extra hassle of dealing with the RAW file. Maybe something to keep in mind if you have to make your shots count.

  • Love the focus peaking addition in the 1.10 firmware. Manual focusing so much easier now

  • Drove from Sydney to Erina to get one today. Tried it out this afternoon and very happy! Will need some hints on where to go for accessories though. Would like a little flash to go in the shoe that can point up, and also something to stick onto the lens cap with a tether so I don't lose it.

    • Have a look at the Metz 24 AF-1. Very small with tiltable head. Ted's in Chatswood has one but I didn't see if they had the Pentax variant. B&H has it for about US$90. As for the lens cap, eBay has lots if you don't mind waiting for a couple of weeks (sometimes longer). Ted's probably has one as well, but costs more for sure.

  • Received mine yesterday. First thing I want to try is multi-exposure. The multi-exposure setting in the menu is grayed out and no matter what I tried I cannot access the menu item. According to page 109 of the manual, I have set the Scene mode to Quick Macro, File format to Raw+, turned off Distortion Correction etc and still I cannot access multi-exposure.
    Any idea ?

    • It seems it will only work on jpg.

      • Yes, got it. The manual is wrong.

  • +2

    Took a few quick shots:

    http://thirdgear.com.au/product_images/uploaded_images/penq0…
    http://thirdgear.com.au/product_images/uploaded_images/penq0…
    http://thirdgear.com.au/product_images/uploaded_images/penq0…

    This is my cheap cafe racer that I keep in the shop to use for product photography when I get new stock. So glad I bought this camera and I have zero regrets on this purchase. Now I just have to learn how to take pictures. :D

    • What filters did you use for that effect. Really great shots.

    • There's never any regrets with anything bought via OzB. :)

  • I've just ordered a 0.45x wide angle screw on filter for mine. I order a 52mm thread version along with a 40.5-52mm step up ring. Totalled around $13 delivered which was cheaper than buying the 40.5mm version for ~$17. The 52mm version should theoretically be better quality as the glass is larger and should have less distortion/CA fringing towards the edge. It will probably decrease the wide angle effect though.

  • Is anyone else having trouble updating their lens firmware?

    I managed to update the camera's firmware, but no matter what I do, I can't get the camera to recognise the lens firmware.

    Any help would be appreciated!

  • +1

    is it advisable to get a screen protector for the LCD screen obv.

    • And no need to buy one specifically made for the Q, any old screen protector will do. My gf cut up one for a samsung galaxy S II phone. got 10 for $1 on ebay or some ridiculously low price, cheap as chips lol

      • I got that too (I used to have a Galaxy S II but I broke it, stuck with protective screens now) but I'm still using the iPad screen protector that my brother was throwing out. I've just been cutting it to size whenever I need one for one of my gadgets with an LCD.

  • Thanks to Ozbargain for getting me a new toy. I just received it from Ted's yesterday, and have some first impressions written up on my site here: http://ai-artificialimagination.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/pent…

    Some snapshot samples at the above link.

    • Nice! Thanks for sharing :) I just came back from a quick trip to Melbourne where I took the Q with me and I'm hoping to finish my write up. In short, I'm very impressed with it considering the price I paid for it.

  • I missed out on one of these :-( anyone willing to sell me theirs if they don't like it?

    • Give me a PM here and we can discuss.

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