Harvey Norman: Refusal of refund where purchased from another Harvey Norman

robotdad on 29/08/2013 - 19:15

So I was returning my non-working product to Hardly Normal (in SA) today and SalesGuy says 'Yes HN would pay a refund. When he looked at the receipt, he said 'You got it from another HN, we cant refund it here because we are a franchise -you have to go back to that store. The only time would be if you purchased it interstate'.

When I disagreed and said that it did not comply with Australian consumer law he said the phrase 'return it to your place of purchase'.

This franchise argument was a new one for me. I suspect SalesGuy is correct (given recent separate court actions http://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-re-institutes-lega… ), but you would have thought there would have been some sort of franchise arrangement at the back-end warranty support to support the uniform front-end.

Anyone with similar experience or helpful suggestions?

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Comments

  • Moots on 29/08/2013 - 19:18
    +7

    Hardly Normal, enough said. They have to be the worst franchise, if you go in looking under 25 9 times out of 10 you get told you can gain finance before getting past the vacuum section.

    • robotdad on 29/08/2013 - 19:21
      +5

      'Would you like fries, I mean extended warranty, with that?'

      • [Deactivated] on 31/08/2013 - 17:27
        +2

        I thought they were called store warranty, once you're out of the store you're out of warranty.

  • chillipaste on 29/08/2013 - 20:10
    +1

    Hang on, I had a laptop bought from a clive peters before it went broke. Clive Peters was then bought up by harvey norman. and I was able to claim a warranty on that laptop at one of their stores - albeit with terrible difficulty.

    so you should be able to too?

    • robotdad on 29/08/2013 - 20:26

      SalesGuy said that the ability to return to other HN's is different in other states. I don't know if this is due to HN franchise rules/structure or differing state consumer laws or incorrect.

      • [Deactivated] on 31/08/2013 - 08:21

        HN can make all the policies it likes, but the law will always have the priority.

        That said, to the OP, the argument will be wht that law means by "point of purchase". CHeck the relevant act in your state…

  • sauce2k6 on 29/08/2013 - 20:47
    +2

    why not return it to the original HN?

    • robotdad on 29/08/2013 - 20:51
      +2

      I will do so, the place of purchase just happens to be 35km from where I work. Meanwhile I work a 2 minute walk from another HN that is a different franchise -so I now know.

  • lakers1222 on 29/08/2013 - 20:55
    +2

    I have a similar story Harvey Norman 84 ORiordan St Alexandria (NSW) also refused to refund a faulty iPad. The iPad was only couple months old and I had the receipt showing proof of purchase at that same store. Even though the manager (Fadi Clear) acknowledged that it was faulty (Screen burn-in) he refused to refund it on grounds that 'I can't tell if it has been jailbroken or not and if it has been jailbroken that the warranty is gone'. He said come back on Monday when they have a technician (Edward, if I remember correctly) on side and I will get a refund when the iPad has been verified not to be jailbroken.

    Come Monday, I returned to the store and asked for a refund. The technician verified the iPad had not been jalibroken but I was still refused the refund. The said that I needed to get an Apple Genius to verify that it has a 'major fault' in order for Apple to issue a refund. Just wondering, if Harvey Norman and Apple followed the law, who should be issuing my refund ?

    Earlier that week I had already visited the Apple Store on George Street (NSW). They acknowledge their was a problem and were happy to swap it straight away. They brought out an iPad from one of the drawers and I noticed that it wasn't in a box so I questioned 'Is the replacement iPad new ?' to which the apple genius answered it was 'refurbished'. I refused to take the refurbished model as I expected a brand new replacement if my iPad became faulty under the warranty period. Am I expecting too much ?

    I would love to hear other peoples comments to what I they would have done after being bullied by these two stores. Yes, I'm naming the stores which pushed me around. They shouldn't get away with what they've done.

    • robotdad on 29/08/2013 - 21:45
      +2

      I think HN was trying hard to deprive you of your rights. My understanding of the current suite of legal action by the ACCC against HN franchisees revolves around HN-asserted limitations to statutory warranties.

      The Apple response of replacing your new but not fit for purpose ipad with a refurb, might be a creative interpretation of the 'replacement or repair' requirement.

    • RockyRaccoon on 30/08/2013 - 04:21
      +1

      I refused to take the refurbished model as I expected a brand new replacement if my iPad became faulty under the warranty period. Am I expecting too much ?

      Your expectations are based on what?

      Apple refurbished are like new, they have new cases etc but do reuse parts. Also manufacturers are not required to replace an old unit with a new unit, They do have to fix the existing unit.

      Problem is that you would also wait for it to be repaired. Hence the refurbished option saves you waiting. BTW change of mind returns could also be used as a replacement unit, these might still be "new" as it never been faulty so never needed repair.

      Many including Apple do replace the units early on. What the "cutoff" period for this is may depend on the individual companies policies.

      This is fairly well explained here

      http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/…

      One point I noticed is that HN should have handled the repair issue, not passed you over to the Apple store.

      The retailer who sold you the product or service cannot refuse to help you by sending you to the manufacturer or importer.

      • one man clan on 30/08/2013 - 09:03
        +4

        On that page:

        Replaced products must be of an identical type to the product originally supplied.

        It's grey but is a refurbished model an 'identical type'? I think you're within your rights to expect a new model.

    • pjcook on 30/08/2013 - 09:37
      +4

      HN cannot send you to the manufacturer, that would include an Apple Genius at the Apple store. They could request you leave the unit with them and they send it to Apple for them to check and if Apple confirm it is faulty then they must refund, replace, repair as per your choice.

      • lakers1222 on 30/08/2013 - 13:55

        Knowledge is power. Next time this happens I will demand that the store with the name above my receipt sorts out any replacements/repairs for me

    • netbies on 30/08/2013 - 20:07
      +1

      I see no problem with replacing with a refurbished model. As this is the same as they are fixing it up for you.

      I believe there is a limit on the period that you will get a one for one replacement for new. But once the period past, even under warranty, they will fix it for you for free. So what is the difference between keeping your ipad to fix or swap a refurbished for you?

      Take HDD for example. All my replacement HDD are marked as manufacturer refurbished. They are not giving a brand new one to unless you are with the enterprise grade.

      • tonyjzx on 31/08/2013 - 00:29
        +1

        why would you expect a new unit when yours is already 3 months old?

        • ncmx5 on 31/08/2013 - 18:55
          +1

          Agreed. If it's warranty, manufacturer should have a choice to repair or replace it for you, in which case, they replaced it. You have used the product, and technically who knows what you could've done with it.

          If this was a car, they would be fixing it for sure… they wouldn't give you a brand new car… (exceptional circumstances I have heard they have though i.e. safety etc)… but your life wouldn't be at risk have a refurbished ipad.

    • Kempe on 31/08/2013 - 11:00
      +2

      A major fault is any fault that would have stopped you buying the unit.
      Even the most minor of faults are major under the wording.
      I have the same ongoing issue with a TV with an intermittent faulty power switch that makes turning it on difficult sometimes 20 attempts.
      The retailer was saying it was just a switch and the TV did work so "minor" I was saying I wouldn't have paid $2.5k if I had known therefore it is "major"

      • lakers1222 on 31/08/2013 - 23:34

        Kempe is 100% right

        You may choose to get a refund, repair or exchange if the good you bought has a major fault. A good has a major fault if:
        - it is unsafe or faulty
        - it doesn’t do the job it’s supposed to do
        - it is different to the sample or description you saw
        - you wouldn’t have bought it if you knew about the problem.

        source: http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Indigenous/Shopping_an…

  • pjcook on 30/08/2013 - 09:36
  • Untameable on 30/08/2013 - 12:21
    +2

    I haven't seen anyone here mention what the law is. Has anyone contacted the ACCC to ask if franchisees are treated as one unified "place of purchase"?

    • ncmx5 on 31/08/2013 - 19:00
      +3

      They shouldn't. Just because it's under the same name… I work in a Pharmacy, and it's all independently owned but has the same banner for "buying power and advertising/brand recognition". It's a bit unfair for us to have to replace a product that was faulty and bought at another pharmacy. Technically, we would send the fault back to the manufacturer for a replacement product.. but that takes time/manpower etc. So if it was a product sold by us, and was deem faulty (and didn't cost us too much to buy), we would swap it straight over or refund it.. and sometimes wear the cost… and bin the faulty product… retailers shouldn't be treated as a manufacturer… there's already enough shit retailers have to deal with… businesses are there to make a living, support employment and provide services.. at least some do.

      • robotdad on 31/08/2013 - 21:34

        I expect that my contract of sale would be with the franchisee that sold me the goods, so what I have been told by SalesGuy appears to be in line with my understanding of contract law. I just never considered the issue before so it caught me by surprise, not to mention caused inconvenience, and make me think twice about shopping at HN.

  • tonyjzx on 30/08/2013 - 13:43
    +2

    i strongly dislike HN but look at it from their perspective… why should they clean up someone elses mess?

    Store A took the money, made the profit

    Store B have to do the cleanup work for Store A

    returns cost money to process, I doubt Store B will get any compensation for this

    you're expecting chains to work like one unified company, they dont

    • dealman on 31/08/2013 - 13:04
      +11

      Well,
      They try and use all the advantages when it comes to a chain store : branding, recognition, expectation of service, etc. So if they shouldn't shrink when it comes to the disadvantages , RMA, returns, warranty etc.

      As far as the customer is concerned : We buy from a "Harvey Norman" store Not from any particular single franchise. They don't even advertise whether the store is a franchise or a company owned store, so how should we know.

      I don't really care if Store B gets any compensation or not, it's HN internal policies / mess to sort out.

      No wonder more and more Aussies prefer buying online, the warranties / service is the single advantage chain stores have and they screw up like this.

      • tonyjzx on 31/08/2013 - 17:43

        i'm with you but you shouldnt be surprised when a store wants all the upsides of a franchise but none of the downsides…

        i personally never feel right about returning something to a store i didnt buy from because i've been on the other side and it sucks… as they say, once you seen how the puppets' strings are pulled you probably dont want anything to do with it

        i'd never buy from HN unless its simple stuff AND theres a way out with the manufacturer (eg. apple for example)

    • ESEMCE on 02/09/2013 - 15:43

      Ideally it would all even up over time..

      Store B is just as likely to sell you something while you're at work, then you try to return it to store A close to your home on the weekend.

      and if not, the backend should take care of the imbalance (ie the city store may experience higher returns from other stores due to people returning items during their Lunch break.

  • netbies on 30/08/2013 - 20:09

    On returning to a different store other the one bought with franchise, HN is the worst one. I have experience with Bing Lee, they are franchised too, the matter is being dealed between the shops. It takes a while to get that done. But they did it.

  • p1 ama on 30/08/2013 - 21:24

    Well, I can sort of see both the positives and negatives to this story, yeah, HN might have been complete assholes for not refunding you and making you take it back to the original HN, but you're only 35km away, so it's not as if it's a massive issue anyhow. So you probably aren't in the worst position. That's a positive.

    The negative would have to be the ones who bought from an interstate HN and are forced to go back interstate to return it, that would be quite ridiculous, but, thank god you're not one of them!

    • coolhand on 31/08/2013 - 18:51
      +1

      The sales guy seems to have suggested that if you do purchase things interstate you can return them to any store in another state.

      • robotdad on 31/08/2013 - 21:30
        +1

        You have it correct, coolhand (as far as SalesGuy informed me).

  • [Deactivated] on 31/08/2013 - 08:27

    This from Prof. Fels:
    http://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Administering%20the%20Fr…

    http://www.accc.gov.au/business/industry-codes/franchising-c…

    I haven't read it other than the Fels' address, but it seems mainly aimed at those entering franchising agreements, so it might clarify the rights of consumers.

  • lakers1222 on 31/08/2013 - 23:30
    +1

    To the people siding with HN, and saying that retailers shouldn't give a brand new replacement for a item that no longer works during warranty period.
    Fair trading makes it very clear that if a item has a "major fault" the CONSUMER can choose to have "repaid, refund or exchange"
    I chose to get a refund, after that, if I choose to buy a brand new version of that product again. That is within my rights.
    I cannot understand why the retailer should get away with giving out a referbished replacement.
    The reason why HN did not give me a refund was because the manager, Fadi Clear, used a loophole in the system. He said I needed a 'qualified apple technician' to verify the item had a 'major fault'. But according to fair trading

    You may choose to get a refund, repair or exchange if the good you bought has a major fault. A good has a major fault if:
    it is unsafe or faulty
    you (the customer) wouldn’t have bought it if you knew about the problem.

    As far as I can tell. This means that the customer gets the final say if its a major fault or not. Which means that if an item malfunctions under the warranty period, it is within the customers rights to recieve a refund.
    Harvey Norman and their dodgy tactics to avoid giving out refund is against the law.
    Information sourced from: http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Indigenous/Shopping_an…

    • voteoften on 01/09/2013 - 00:51
      +3

      yes

    • RockyRaccoon on 01/09/2013 - 07:14

      you (the customer) wouldn’t have bought it if you knew about the problem.

      Well I think that would really have to be tested.

      Does this really mean that

      If I buy a car, and a dial falls off say on the radio, that I claim that if I had known this before I bought it, that I wouldnt have bought the car.

      And this would not be me, being pedantic, as if I had known I would have chosen another car out of their inventory.

      Then the manufacturer must give me a new car!!

      Again I stress I am not being pedantic, realistically if you had the choice of 2 EXACT same cars, one with this problem and one without, which would you choose..

      BTW the link you provided is for indigenous people, which is a more compact version of the main page found here.

      http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Consumer_gua…?

      Now given that you have gone to all this trouble to quote your rights post here with concise details of discussions etc, have you contacted fair trading and got a resolution?

      What do they say?

      And can you enlighten us?

      Because without that we a just speculating on some words that seem to be extremely broad in interpretation.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/09/2013 - 07:38

    FYI, many aspects of returning goods are covered in this featured "The Checkout" clip:

    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/thecheckout/clips/?play=checkout_01…

  • netsurfer on 02/09/2013 - 07:39
    +2

    I used to think Harvey Norman is like OfficeWorks, BigW, DSE. However, Harvey Norman is definitely NOT like those stores.

    I had the same experience as the OP. Each Harvey Norman store is owned by a separate company, normally setup as a trust. So, if you want a full replacement OR refund, you must go back to the Harvey Norman store you purchased it from. If you want a warranty repair, then you could go to any store.

    Quite a lot of computer stores also operate like that. Even the online store is treated as a different store (i.e. full refund must contact online sales / accounts team).

    Basically, if a company is a franchise, then you normally have to go to the original store you purchased the item from to get brand new replacement or full refund within 7 days.

    Harvey Norman have good marketing - so a lot of people think they are like OfficeWorks, BigW, Target. Unfortunately, that's definitely not the case. If you want good after sales service, best to buy from Coles or Woolworth owned stores.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/09/2013 - 11:52

    If you bought a car from a Holden car yard, would you expect to take it back to another car yard?

    • RockyRaccoon on 02/09/2013 - 12:09

      actually you can.. as Holden covers the warranty service costs

    • lordsnipe on 02/09/2013 - 12:10

      For new cars, yes you can … the dealer will claim warranty costs from HO.

  • Big Test Icicles on 02/09/2013 - 12:56
    +1

    I worked for HN for 8 years and can explain why they may have done this.

    basically when HN franchise purchases a computer from a supplier the serial number for that computer is on the invoice.

    when the franchise then tries to do a return to the supplier it all has to be done via computer, logging into the suppliers data base and inputting the invoice number and serial number it was purchased on.

    each store has there own login and if the invoice for that machine isn't on there they cant get a return authorisation to the supplier.

    they can however still offer a refund and then get the original store to do a stock transfer and have that store do the claim for a return to the supplier.

    i was in charge of doing returns and believe me it is easier if the customer takes it back to the original store but it depends on the proprietor and how much he loves his/her customers,

    • one man clan on 02/09/2013 - 14:25

      It's clear why they do it (because it's a pain in the arse). Doesn't make it legal/fair for the consumer.

      • cloudy on 05/09/2013 - 16:13

        To be fair, its the individual person who was asked that made the call to not refund or assist, so i think it's not so clear why "they" do it. If you say they as in the individual, i'd be hesitant to say all individuals that work for HN are to be a pain in the arse.

        i think whats legal for the cusumer is written in the law, which i wont say im clear on, but appears not to be breached (someone correct me?)

        as for fair, its certainly inconvinent

    • juld0zer on 02/09/2013 - 15:56
      +1

      I used to work at HN in the returns/tech assistance counter. There's some information missing from the original story, such as what product was faulty.

      Sometimes a product may not be sold at all HN stores and therefore won't appear on the POS system. It takes a little fiddling to manually enter the product into the system but it's not a difficult task.

      What Big Test Icicles said is pretty much the way we handled situations like this, provided the customer has a valid proof of purchase (either original tax invoice or a legit copy of it; which we'd verify with the store printed at the top).

      At the end of the day, it's management discretion that determines the outcome. We happily did such returns. I'm not sure who wore the cost of freighting the dud item back to the original store but i imagine it would be the original store who pays for it.

      Although the SalesGuy's remark about interstate purchases being an exception - i think that's BS. The situation between a person returning an item purchased from another state or a person returning an item purchased from a HN store within the same state is hardly different.

      Management variances aside, manufacturers can often authorise a replacement to be shipped out fairly quickly. Again, we don't know what the faulty product was.

      Cheers

  • [Deactivated] on 02/09/2013 - 15:30
    +1

    Anyone with similar experience or helpful suggestions?

    My suggestion is to ask to speak to the Franchisee or 2IC. If they refuse, just go and speak to somebody else. The issue you are running into is this: salespeople are almost always paid based on sales performance. Some number (not all, not none) of staff do not want to deal with ANY customer service if they can avoid it and will use a variety of (almost always) technically correct tricks to do so. If you didn't have your receipt it's a different story, because the data is only stored locally at the store level.

    In all customer service matters, the only additional thing to note is this: Even if you're getting treated poorly, try not to snap back or act up as tempting as it is. If you're reasonable you will ALWAYS get a resolution from a franchisee, 2IC or area mananger if the franchisee is unavailable. If somehow you're unable to get a resolution on the first visit (which I would suggest if you've followed this advice is EXTREMELY rare) then I would contact Harvey Norman through social media, in my time there they were heavily invested in addressing complaints.

    Source: I do not work for Harvey Norman, but in the past I have.

    • cloudy on 05/09/2013 - 16:09

      Sounds like very wise advice to approach any store in such a situation.

  • GreatWhiteHunter on 02/09/2013 - 16:33

    I am surprised you have gone straight to OzBargain rather than first call Harvey Norman head office.
    Its a little like the guy who dropped his PC and then blamed CPL for it - and ended up getting a free replacement because he used the power of the angry Ozbargain mob to exert pressure on them.

    Given you like this approach, why not use that store's Facebook site?
    http://harveynorman.findnearest.com.au/?OriginState=NSW&subm…

    HN's return policy is here but it only applies to online purchases - http://www.harveynorman.com.au/customer-service/refund-polic…

    It includes the statement:
    If you wish to view the refund, return or repair policies of any Harvey Norman store, please contact or visit the relevant Harvey Norman store for details. As Harvey Norman stores are operated by independent franchisees, these policies may vary between Harvey Norman stores.

    Have you asked the store to view their refund policy??

    HN advertise "Easy returns". Clearly this situation makes a mockery of that claim. I suspect one call to Harvey Norman head office and their "Customer First" team will quickly sort it out - you'll then be able to return your faulty product to whichever store you choose.

    • robotdad on 02/09/2013 - 22:34
      +1

      Hi GreatWhiteHunter,
      Thanks for your contribution to my request for 'Anyone with similar experience or helpful suggestions?'.
      And thanks for the Facebook info. I was not aware of the Facebook site as a means of addressing a warranty issue. In any event I would have hoped that the physical store would naturally have been the first port of call since I did purchase it from a brick and mortar store and a warranty claim usually involves transfer of the physical goods back to the store.

      Allow me to address your other comments and concerns:
      It was not my intent, expectation, or even consideration to use the 'power of the angry Ozbargain mob to exert pressure on them'. I kept my comments neutral, because I was not sure if anything was that occurred, or that was stated, was incorrect. I merely relayed my experience and surprise and consequently was interested if my experience was shared by fellow OzBargainers.

      As a secondary consideration, I thought my experience would be of interest to those on OzB who consider themselves careful shoppers. Careful shoppers would most definitely find the consequence of franchise structure on ease of return under warranty, to be of interest -even to the point where it would be an important consideration during a prospective purchase. As I said "This franchise argument was a new one for me" and I presumed it may be new to others on OzB.

      I did ask to talk to SalesGuy's supervisor, but he was busy, SalesGuy restated his position and my 30 minute lunch break was up (having enjoyed the HN buzzing surrounds, instead of a walk in the sunshine) so I left the store. I have not made any prior returns to HN (given my rare HN purchase rate), nor have I seen their 'Easy returns' marketing material.

      As for going 'straight to OzB', well I had to kill some time till I could fit in the 35km drive to the original 'place of purchase'.

      Thanks again,
      Robotdad

      • GreatWhiteHunter on 06/09/2013 - 23:49

        So Robotdad what happened in the end?

        I suspect gwhse1, from Harvey Norman HQ, sorted you out??

        Don't be like the guy who dropped his PC and just leave the negative story without an ending. He's still got his complaints all over the place and he hasn't updated most of them to say the problem was fully resolved…

        If gwhse1 does fix the problem for you, it proves my point that just calling HQ in the first place (after the return was refused at the different franchise) would have been the most efficient approach…

        It would also be worth asking the store who refused to accept the return for a copy of their returns policy. My bet is it will be very similar or the same as the online policy already provided - which means they actually should have accepted your return in the first place…

  • Associatedgwhse1 @ Harvey Norman on 02/09/2013 - 19:49

    Hi Robotdad you are correct - Harvey Norman stores are owned and operated by independent franchisees. However we will always assist customers who have any issue with a product regardless of what store they purchased from. If you give us the details here http://www.harveynorman.com.au/contact-us/ online at Contact Us we will sort this out for you quickly. Apologies for the delay - as soon as you get the confirmation let me know here.
    Thanks
    Gary

    • robotdad on 03/09/2013 - 21:19

      Are you suggesting I don't need to go back to the place of purchase, if I have your assistance? Otherwise what could you offer that would change what I have to do in order to resolve a warranty issue?

  • jazzcomp on 03/09/2013 - 10:36

    Got the same treatment, had to return to original store for refund.

  • robotdad on 08/09/2013 - 16:32

    So I made the 35km treck to the original place of purchase. The item was swapped for a new item, without fuss, in all of five minutes. I did not avail myself of the Facebook page, or gwhese1, because I wanted to be sure that my refund experience was not affected by any escalation. Other than the initial surprise, this has been a smooth experience.

    This post was always about the unexpected (to me) impact of franchise arrangement on the operation of warranty arrangements. I remain convinced that such information regarding the specific need to return it to the store of purchase, ought to be more widely known, and further, perhaps be more explicitedly stated on receipts etc.

    Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

    Regards,
    Robotdad

  • Blackapple on 21/03/2018 - 11:58

    i got same issue with phone. i bought nokia 6 and within 3 month it start having trobule. i return to harvey norman . they give me a looooooooong story. whole intention was not to give me money back. to fix my phone they take one month….i am still waiting …haven't heard from them.

    i am sock from the beheviour of HN .....
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