Harvey Norman refusing refund on defective product (under warranty, discontinued product) Need Help!

tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 14:42

Just went to return a kettle (Morphy Richards $118). Leaked on to electronics. Had returned 6 months ago, same problem. Harveys informed us that they no longer stock the item, & that we could have a store credit. Not interested in the other rubbish they had, we said we will just take a refund as per Aus Consumer Law & go buy a kettle elsewhere. They refused, citing no manager on site to authorize a refund and further "that we were being unreasonable" not accepting the credit, and we can just come back another time. What do you do in this situation. Clearly no value of our time, or rights. The store is down playing their legal responsibility based on no manager? Police would have no interest?? How do we make these Cowboys who think they are above the law accountable?

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  • Adz81 on 03/01/2015 - 14:48
    +25

    Or, and just throwing it out there… There may not have been a manager present and perhaps try again Monday before escalating? I'd certainly hope that the Police would not have an interest.

    As for accountability, the easiest voice is with your wallet. Simply don't shop there.

    • inittobinit on 04/01/2015 - 10:46
      +15

      I'm sorry but no manager on site? What?

      I've worked in low-end and high-end retail for a few years now and have never seen this before.

      Without putting the consumer on the pedestal, a retail shop is a body with a set of resources at its disposal to undertake its one and only purpose of serving the customer.

      What kind of retail shop would let its scope of function deminish by not having a manager on duty? To me that sounds like retail suicide, because a manager while not all that active in operational duties on the floor will still need to be there to authorize and be accountable for situations/escalations like the one in OP.

      To let a such a high-traffic store operate on such low functionality to the point they couldnt even authorise a refund is absolute tripe, and I highly doubt someone like Harvey Norman would let something like that happen.

      I can almost guarantee there was a manager on duty but he just couldn't be arsed (believe me there are some absolute shockers who slither into retail management positions).

      Contacting the police is a dumb idea, they have nothing to do with this sort of issue.

      There are plenty of other avenues to explore to have this issue rectified, ACCC etc.

      • samboread on 04/01/2015 - 15:11
        +4

        most computer systems do not allow certain staff access certain parts of the system, what are the staff expected to do, just open the till and hand them the refund? it is very possible that only the manager has access the the refund system. there is DEFINITELY times that there is no manager to help.
        although you are right about about the people that manage to get into those manager positions.

        The staff probably handled it wrong, the staff could have taken down all the customers details and have the manager contact the OP next time they were at work.

        on the other hand the staff could have just been lazy staff that couldn't be bothered lol

        • inittobinit on 05/01/2015 - 00:35

          Ive worked in retail where 18 year olds are authorized to do refunds and I personally have always been able to do them at my own discretion.

          Refunds/exchange are one of the most crucial functions of a retail store, to only have 1 person able to facilitate it is just plain stupid and is asking for trouble.

          Retails stores are required to adhere to all laws and regulations ALL the time. NOT when it suits.

      • scrimshaw on 04/01/2015 - 20:35
        +4

        I work in retail, and yes, sometimes we have to work a day with a skeleton crew, reasons being the manager may be sick, is working at another branch due to staffing issues or had to take the day off because something important came up.

        • anthonyaaa on 05/01/2015 - 00:23
          +17

          @tunzafun001: I am gona have a rant here because people like you cause my eye to twitch when reading your comments
          1. you clearly have never owned your own business before(or have run a business as a manager) and are one of those who will always complain and demand the law back you up when you pay the least in tax, work the bare minimal, demand higher wages from government and seek every entitlement known to welfare when you get get caught doing something illegal/naughty and fired from work…

          1. A multinational?? Harvey Norman are part of a franchise and are independently owned stores by regular mums and dads… why should they hire more staff? the business is already running smoothly except for the 1 refund which the manager normally performs(who is unavailable)…

          2. staff are humans… obviously manager was called away/ sick/ late/ car broke/ had to leave early/ wifes having a baby had to bolt… whatever the reason is… The manager was obviously unavailable.. this has nothing to do with hiring more staff like you who play clash of the clans in the store room getting double pay on Sunday cause they got nothing to do… (dont forget mum and dads g2 pay his wage out of their own pockets… they are not billionaires like BHP or apple computers who can afford 50 staff in 1 store… Harvey Norman are independent stores selling ovens and toasters not $1100 iphones with big margins… just relax)

          3. Again staff are humans not machines… they dont know/ cant access/ never had to deal with refunds before/dumb whatever the reasons is… they couldn't perform the task on the day… doesn't mean they are ACCC law breaking criminals who wana screw everyone who gets a faulty item and keep all the $7.50 profit on a kettle for themselves…. and waste your precious valuable time on purpose to get a buzz… they are humans who couldn't do what you needed… by all means YOU ARE entitled to a refund… but lets ring the police? what? maby have these teenagers and mother of three working behind the Waterloo Harvey Norman counter what? arrested? fingerprinted? charged? I dont understand what you want to have happen here.. have the cops walk behind the counter take physical cash out and give it to you? have ACCC raid them? take them to court? sue them?? shut them down?? what destroy them because they couldn't help you on the day??.. like they explained come back another day when the manager is on duty because obviously they didn't know how/ aren't allowed to perform cash refunds because again they are not the manager…

          p.s Nothing in this world is perfect.. Cars, tv's, t-shirts, computers, iphone's even kettles sometimes have a faulty one here and there… So you are inconvenienced, Harvey Norman (example the ryde store owners) is inconvenienced, the kettle wholesaler is inconvenienced and the manufacturer is inconvenienced. This is life and as you can see you aren't the only one in the world who is inconvenienced… If you do not like living in a human world then by all means go to another planet where the whole world is run by robots and has 0% chance for error… living on this planet called Earth things are made by humans and therefore we make simple innocent mistakes so please bare with us if things cant be fixed instantly give some time and we will sort it out together as human beings… :)

        • inittobinit on 05/01/2015 - 00:41
          -3

          delete

        • inittobinit on 05/01/2015 - 00:42
          +3

          Regardless of any unforeseen circumstances, staffing should be adequate enough to cover any situation.

          You simply can't just have cogs and wheels missing out of a machine that pumps out service to hundreds even thousands of people a day.

        • tunzafun001 on 05/01/2015 - 09:57
          -1

          @anthonyaaa:
          First of all you have two point 1's (this did make me chuckle, & that's a good thing).
          1. I do have a business & don't look for handouts.
          1. (again :-) I would hope they hire enough staff to be able to conduct a lawful retail operation.
          2.The management at this Franchise are aware of what they are doing, and are quiet arrogant (see my earlier post). This isn't a one off, it is a repeat offender…and they do sell iphones???
          3. Staff members should all be trained in consumer law. I have no grudge against the staff (except for the arrogant, dismissive one).
          PS. Not about being perfect. Its about being able to walk in, return the kettle, they say sorry for your inconvenience, I get my refund & get the product from someone who has it. Sometimes it will work the other way in their favor. Not a huge smoke n mirrors saga for the most basic appliances!

        • spritz on 05/01/2015 - 12:38
          +1

          Agreed. Employ more people if your ridiculous store policy means a person can't be given the refund they're entitled to.
          Alternatively, change that rule and employ the same amount of people.

        • anthonyaaa on 05/01/2015 - 12:46
          +1

          @ptenkae:
          There is no clog… again you can buy any item you want… wait 3 minutes in maby a long line then purchase your item… Efficient, easy and running smoothly… again throwing money at it is not the problem. You cant go hire 5 more people which cost you another $5000 a week out of your pocket just so customers can feel like they are shopping Gucci or Prada where you have 1 staff for every customer…
          You are being ridiculous.. Manager was not on duty was away for whatever reason come back tomorrow or we can process a gift card if you really want right then and there…
          Giving regular staff powers to complete a cash refund opens Pandora's box ! example… I had a chat with cashier working at 2nds world neutral bay… some cashier lady processed $175,000 worth of cash refunds over a year and no item's were ever returned… she was just a regular cashier…. who realised how easy it was to steal… All that happens is you can call the police to have her charged but in the end of the day you will never get a penny back and she's already quit the minute u got a sniff and she felt watched…
          in conclusion again Manager was away for whatever reason… Very sorry… but no… not many retailers are gona give cash refund powers to all their staff your only gona have the manager doing that thank you very much…

        • anthonyaaa on 05/01/2015 - 13:40
          +6

          @tunzafun001: thanks … it was clearly a wrong 1. at the top (chuckle to my human mistake)

          1. you have a business? your either making millions and can afford to hire 10 more staff at $10,000 a week and it wont affect you or… your just someone who shops on ozbargain trying to build up your reputation to counter my points…

          2. again… conduct a "lawful retail operation" please stop with this bs… you buy a product you pay for the product in under 3 minute… emergency exit signs are well illuminated… fire extinguishers are allocated effectively around the entire store, ASIC registration is displayed behind store main counter, everyone is payed with PAYG and no one is dodgy cash in hand illegal visa workers… Harvey Norman bondi junction is ABN and ACN registered collects 10% GST on every transactions and pays all its taxes… list goes on and on… untill finally young teenager employee cannot access cash refund without managers store i.d login.. Da Da Dummm….
            lets call a swat team raid them kick down the windows cause why? un-"lawful retail operation"….
            lolol please stop stop you are killing me… jeez wait because for a sick/ car crash/ pregnant wife/ broke his thumb/ whatever reason manager couldn't be there today to come back tomorrow

          3. they sell iphones?? some do yes… many dont … ARE they making big margins like apple?? Iphone's cost roughly $250~ to build in Apple factory… they sell for $1189… APPLE makes that BIG BIG profit margin… Harvey Norman buys the exact same iphone at $1149 from apple and sell the exact same one for $1189… they make it $5 or $10 cheaper in store if you ask nicely as an incentive to keep people like you and me happy… Apple will never discount an iphone cause you asked nicely.. never ever ever… ever…

          4. "staff members should all be trained in consumer law" yes they probably are… if they arnt then they are humans who didnt listen… they get trained to process a sale, cash handling, eft transactions, customer service, uniform respectability, opening procedures, closing procedures, product knowledge in a variety of alot alot of products, cleaning, consumer laws, store policies and the list goes on and on and on.
            Guess what the funny thing is.. this should take a month to have the staff all fully trained and ready to go. they do this all in a maby a few days or most likely thrown straight in and learn as you go…

          why not u ask??? have 10 new young teenagers training for a month ! at $1000 each a week = $40,000 month just to train them… after a couple months they end up quitting.. are you serious… ! so not practical… and if they wernt listing in the 1-2 day training period or they weren't listening for 10 minutes when your having them learn as they go during your consumer law bit or product knowledge bit..(daydreaming about the party tonight, so he blanks out for 10 minutes) then what? call the police? have him arrested cause he doesnt know or cannot perform a cash refund?? or create a threads on ozbargin and bag them and tell everyone never to shop at harvey norman as to destroy their business on your bad experience…

          "citing no manager on site to authorize a refund and further "that we were being unreasonable"

          I bet you were abusing them carrying on about your almighty Aus Conumer law calling them all criminals… how precious your time is etc etc… poor kid already told you he cant authorize a refund cause HIS NOT A MANAGER…thats why they called you unreasonable and if you cant come another day, have a store credit there and then !… but his not allowed to take cash out of the till and hand it over the counter to you cause his login I.D is not a MANAGERS I.D and physically cant do it .. the poor teenage kid already attempted to help you… very simple solution to this thread that has already wasted a 100's of peoples time… Wait for it… wait… come back tomorrow like they said cause… wait for it… the manager is not here today again his sick, car crashed, wife is pregnant in hospital and left 20 minutes earlier FOR WHATEVER reason he already answered your question, come back tomorrow or whenever your precious time allows you to come back~

          p.s I hope my rant has answered all your questions because unimportant threads about this causes my eye to twitch.

          pp.s(irrelevant to my original rant) I just read [@nikey2k27] comment… they might have a store policy again for all staff only to do store credit/gift cards refunds… and anything else required to get the store Manager in regards to your Aus Consumer Law to deal with… just like how every bar, restaurant, nightclub, cafe, pub, hotel etc. the police and olgr all deals with a Licensee(NSW) or Nominee(QLD) known as the 'store manager' very simple.. police don't harass regular staff with sophisticated liquor law questions..

        • pkl111 on 05/01/2015 - 17:33
          +6

          @anthonyaaa: mate your a joke. If the item is faulty they should refund it end of story. No ifs buts or anything. Why should the person in this case waste there time to go back again for the refund. Harvey Norman makes millions so don't give an excuse of no managers on. They should have a manager on at all times and In my experience they have a manager in each area and then there's another manager above them so if ones sick there are plenty of others that can do it. Otherwise train the staff so that if a manager is sick a Normal worker can do it.

          Why should the consumer be inconcinved because of them. When I had something refunded the manager didn't need to come over the worker did it so I think it's an excuse to buy time.

          And the thing about hiring teenagers. I'm 21 had 2 jobs and stayed in each one for roughly 4 years so don't throw us all in the same boat. There are plenty of people looking for work don't hire teenagers hire older workers.

        • anthonyaaa on 05/01/2015 - 20:56
          -1

          @pkl111: ok so based on everything you just said your a hard working 21 year old… Also your stating its a must for all staff who are managers to be on duty or find one instantly and if not all regular staff must have manager powers and be able to do manager tasks if the manager is not there… ?

          ok let me point a few things out because your policy involves " No ifs buts or anything"…
          What if trains and all roads are heavily delayed.. http://media.smh.com.au/video-news/video-nsw-news/commuter-c… for example this morning….
          Manager is delayed… area manager is delayed and no manager is able to get onto work on time… According to your "No ifs buts or anything" a regular worker must perform manager tasks… okay great..
          according to you we are having regular unqualified staff undertake Manager tasks and duties… for all businesses? or your policy only apples to Harvey Norman stores? ..

          So we are having ANZ bank tellers approving $1 Million home loans on the spot because the loans manager was sick or stuck in traffic or god forbid a terrorist holds up martins place and the half the CBD is in lockdown…? Do you live on planet earth? have you never been late/sick held up going to work? Are we having junior stock traders approve of $10million share buys because the senior/manager trader is sick or late…?

          so now your going to say for some jobs you can but some jobs you cant? like I wrote above… the cashier told me at 2nds world neutral bay some staff could process cash refunds on the spot… some cashier lady processed $175,000 worth of cash refunds over a year and no item's were ever returned… she was just a regular cashier…. who realised how easy it was to steal… All that happens is you can call the police to have her charged but in the end of the day you will never get a penny back and she's already quit the minute u got a sniff when she felt watched….

          Again like ive written 3 times now… Harvey Norman are PRIVATELY owned retail stores ! by regular people like mums and dads !… The only company who is making millions like you said is the Harvey Norman franchise owner(mr Gerry Harvey)… He lends his name out and supplies the stock to that store.. charcoal chicken are privately owned… no one owns all the charcoal chickens in Australia. Woolworth are company owned, apple is company owned, dick-smiths is company owned yes they own all the stores with their name on it but not Harvey Norman… omg please dont let me write another essay and educate people like you about how a franchise operates…

          last example Harvey Norman cannot have the ryde manager walk into burwood and start running things there… and hang on a sec… based on your logic… its impossible for that to even happen because it would mean there's no manager on duty! because there's no teleporting machine. he would need an hour or so to drive there meanwhile the store is mamagerless. so again your statement involves "ifs" and "buts or anything" like that and has contradicted yourself… WE ARE HUMANS… we make mistakes we get sick, late and we are not 100% perfect… why do you want robots running earth? your more than welcome to change planets if we are not perfect enough for you…

        • inittobinit on 06/01/2015 - 01:32
          -2

          @anthonyaaa:

          I said cog, not clog. Read my comment again.

        • pkl111 on 06/01/2015 - 05:28

          @anthonyaaa: you have made some valid arguments which even I agree with.

          With the ifs and buts statement. The customer is entitled to a refund. If the manager isn't there at the time they could have taken down there details so that they could pass it on to the manager when they arrived so they could fulfill the refund without the customer having to come back again.

          How come the staff member had the power to offer a store creidt but not a refund.

        • GaryQ on 06/01/2015 - 07:38

          Any business that allows $175k worth of refunds to accumulate on 1 staff member's login over as year deserves to go broke. Whoever is doing the book-keeping in that shop should have spotted the pattern in 2 weeks or less.

          Did you see the story late last year about employees being sacked for using their own Flybuys card whenever a customer didnt have one? Same thing. (Although, the cashiers should have been smarter and used multiple cards to avoid a pattern)

        • tunzafun001 on 06/01/2015 - 13:07

          @anthonyaaa:
          Well a lot of anger and assumption here. Take some magnesium for your eye twitch and relax. The assumption I was ranting ACL was way off. I know my rights and simply asked to speak to a superior regarding the code.

          1. Successful business is built from quality and respect. If you think purely in $ then you might end up like this post.

          Point 2 & 4. Staff member was a great kid. I would employ him in seconds. He did as he should and directed me to his team leader (hopefully one day this kid becomes the manager). From their they directed me to the manager out the back. This is the person who didnt know the ACL. This is the person who got all flustered and angry. Let's just say for a second this out the back office manager can't give refunds, then HN (franchise) have set them up for failure & customer conflict. Phones make contacting anyone stuck in traffic accessible these days. I don't believe this manager (not staff member) couldn't offer the refund, therefore I reported them, and let the Ozbargain community know.

          I have been contacted by HN Aus and let's see if we can make a change, as this enforced store credit method is popping up from franchises all over Australia & basically hurting the brand.

          I will get back to the store next time in town, will check / apologise to the kid (but we got on fine) …hopefully he gets promoted. Hopefully said manager reciprocates the apology.

        • anthonyaaa on 06/01/2015 - 17:44

          @tunzafun001:

          Yes I am currently back on my daily vitamins and omega 3's, thanks for asking.. :)

          1.You now have totally confused me…. you now have conflicting statements

          your original post stated:
          "They refused, citing no manager on site to authorize a refund and further "that we were being unreasonable" not accepting the credit, and we can just come back another time"

          now your saying:
          "the manager out the back. This is the person who didnt know the ACL. This is the person who got all flustered and angry."

          so if you clearly explain what happened instead of whinging about murder murder ACL(Australian consumer law for any1 reading) breach ACL breach shut them down… I cant come back tomorrow my times too precious… maby I wouldnt need my daily multi V and magnesium :p

          2.if the manager was a scum bag looking criminals or was abusive.. or extremely rude, asked you to leave and not going to help you, whatever and you were polite and didnt carry on also please state this clearly… because now with your conflicting statements I am totally confused as to what happened with your experience

          shut this harvey norman down shut that dicksmiths down shut that myers down… stop trying to shut business's down!
          @GaryQ: after reading your above comment I am disappointed in you…you mean to say'they should go broke cause they got robbed' …it's their fault ? every store in the world gets robber. Every Woolworths gets robbed, every newsagent, every Jb-hi-fi, every big w, every post shop, bar, restaurant, even hot dollar $2 plastic forks packs gets robbed… if not by customers then by staff (cash aswell)..

          2ndly please dont ever assume…
          you are not sherlock Holmes :p have you solved the whole case? why would u assume she used her own login every time?

          here's something I came up within 3seconds I look over your shoulder as you process a sale… and guess what … I… now… have… your… Password and login … Gary123….. Brand new top of the range released tv/bbq/fridges cost anything up to $9000 lets say… I refund 20 of these through a variety of different staffs logins as to make it look like we had a bad batch of faulty ones … manager rings up supplier and whinges… supplier whinges at distributor… distributor wingers at manufacturer… by the time you try and work it out, she said she sent the faulty ones back and have already been picked up by star-track. Supplier said they got nothing except those fault toasters last month….. now supplier is thinking maby his workers already sent them to distributor automatically as to not take up space?? so his ringing the distributor who's going through all the faulty stuff trying to find the pallat or crate with the company supplier name on it… who knows wtf is happening and supplier/distributor are now still trying to find these tv's that the store said they already sent to them weeks ago…(p.s same in wholesale-retail "the customers always right") by the time they do work out its not at the distributors… its not at the suppliers… star track didn't steal them its all too late…your looking at your current staff cause she's quit months ago!! finally if you do ever work it out it was your old staff cause she put refunds under everyone's name (cause she looked over not 1 staff's shoulder)… police need weeks and months before they even start doing anything and get the shitz cause probably now most likely need a forensic accountant just to prove this all in court otherwise no 0 chance of a conviction…

          see how messy and how easy it was for one smart individual staff member with half an imagination and who knows the system alot better than me, im just guessing and making this all up…
          p.s (I made this up in 3 seconds! [I dont condone or believe you will get away with this].. dont whine and start poking holes at my fictitious guess of what happened and say why did distributor/supplier ask his workers if they moved it bla bla… Gigantic warehouses.. even suitcases on qantas go missing or misplaced)

          Most small business's like Harvey Norman, Australian Post shops, IGA all of which are independent stores… are not making millions like you would think… alot are just earning abit more than you or I in wages… trying to just pay themselves a higher wage for the extra 1000's of hours they put working… remember these people dont work 9-5 with a 30 min lunch break go home stress free… these guys work crazy hours like 7-12… 7 days a week sometimes… ripping their hair out trying to pay the ridiculous rip off Westfield rent every week..

        • tunzafun001 on 06/01/2015 - 23:10

          @anthonyaaa:
          Well, I'll just respond to my bit. All my statements are correct. Yes I was speaking to an alleged "manager", but this manager couldn't do refunds, plus felt I wasn't entitled to a refund, just a store credit. So it was "come back another day and speak to some other mystery manager to see if you are entitled to a refund, or just be reasonable and take the store credit". Was this person an actual manager, who knows. Was there a manager on deck to comply with ACL, still dont know…Smoke/ mirrors/ deception/ illegal.

          Did I scream & yell? No (but the manager got pretty close to an old fashion spray) Was I polite? to the floor staff, definitely. To the manager,no unpleasantries were spoken. Was I stern, firm & not accepting their naivety?..absolutely!

        • askme69 on 07/01/2015 - 19:56
          +2

          @anthonyaaa:
          He paid a premium for a kettle so he would not be inconvenienced. Hell $10 kettle from kmart etc and take back whenever no questions asked.

          If the manager is not present, someone else should be delegated the authority.

          Come back another day, Do you know what a pain in the arse this can be.

          NOT GOOD ENOUGH HARVEY.

        • anthonyaaa on 08/01/2015 - 00:49
          -5

          @hrb93:

          no thank you not delegating manager authority to regular staff…

          ive already answered this several times….. but im gona copy and paste a part from above.. again for people like you

          there's a reason why they are called managers and not regular staff…"just like how every bar, restaurant, nightclub, cafe, pub, hotel etc. the police and olgr all deals with a Licensee(NSW) or Nominee(QLD) known as the 'store manager' very simple.. police don't harass regular staff with sophisticated liquor law questions.." just like how a bank teller doesn't approve any $1 million mortgages over his counter and junior stock brokers don't make $10 Million share trades… its gona be the loans manager and senior/managing stock trader that make these decisions…

          again read above comments before you just jump in…. all these questions have been already been answered several times… please don't ever scroll half way read a comment you disagree with and then jump in…

          @anthonyaaa:

          @anthonyaaa:

          @anthonyaaa:

          cbf trying to find the codes for my previous threads just scroll up for the rest of them… it's quiet the essay

    • nikey2k27 on 04/01/2015 - 23:28
      -2

      Store policy we did it all time at Dicksmith most customer would take it.

      • John Dough on 06/01/2015 - 08:53

        Store policy is not consumer law under the fair trading act.
        If a product is clearly faulty, under warranty and customer has receipt then the store needs to issue a refund on the spot. NO ifs buts or maybes.
        The store should not be trading if there is no person available that can issue refunds. Who opened the store that morning?

        OP - go and report to the Office of fair trading (both refund refusal, and report that you were told no staff member could issue refunds was working that day) They will sort it out I assure you, just be patient with them. They will let you know your rights as a consumer and you can print them out and go back into HN and show them you are serious.

        Make sure these arse clowns refund your hard earned money, and research kettles a bit better next time eh? ;)

      • tunzafun001 on 06/01/2015 - 23:22
        +1

        @Nikey2k27
        Did you offer them a refund as a lawful option? If you said "would you like a store credit or refund?" Then that is fine. If you say, "we can give you a store credit" then we have a problem. If you say "we can only offer you a store credit" then you are probably working at my local Harvey Norman.

        @greydaniel
        I have reported the incident to every authority I can find. Next step is local media etc. Then I will go back in and pick up my refund and record the conversation (believe i need to let the manager know its being recorded). Already bought the replacement elsewhere for $40 less. The difference can go to the bushfire appeal.

        • nikey2k27 on 08/01/2015 - 17:56

          We go for store credit then Wish Gift card before refunding only if customer keep ask for it a few time. no i am not happy with store credit i want refund. not say it law but it what has happen in retail for years. if you want refund keep ask for it. It is the law.

    • pointless martyr on 05/01/2015 - 13:44

      Who pays $100 for a kettle? I think i paid $5 a few years ago, use it everyday and still good. If you got a cheaper kettle, you could have bought a bunch of eneloops, chromecasts and slazenger tees and shorts etc etc.

      • String name on 08/01/2015 - 05:09

        Is yours internet enabled?

        • pointless martyr on 08/01/2015 - 14:35
          +1

          For $100 id want it to have a built in AV entertainment system too!

  • TheAviator on 03/01/2015 - 14:57

    does the law entitle to a refund? I thought it was up to the retailer to decide.

    • Settero on 03/01/2015 - 15:00
      +6

      it depends on the fault , major faults you are entitled to a refund no questions asked, minor faults the merchant has the right to choose to repair/replace/refund the item

    • [Deactivated] on 03/01/2015 - 20:28
      +6

      If the item is not working due to a fault with the product and not a user fault, then the customer is entitled to a refund.

      • sunarde on 04/01/2015 - 16:37
        -1

        True. But how does the sales representative know that?

        He probably did what he or she thought was best under circumstances.. It may be obvious to consumer what is at fault but for rep who listened to your issue and probably has no technical knowledge or tool to diagnose problem not so much.

        What I mean by consumer fault is that these 2 possible scenarios could have happened.

        1/ product is faulty where if filled with water said item would leak.

        2/ improper use like attaching the kettle to power dock when wet under. (so many people do it at my work it's unbelievable.. Kettle gets replaced every 4 months)

    • paulojr on 03/01/2015 - 20:36
      +5

      its pretty clear cut here, they offered a store credit, they have no right to do that, if they can't repair it or replace it they must legally offera refund not a store credit as a store credit is not one of the available options.

    • garetz on 04/01/2015 - 22:25
      +4

      If the retailer cannot replace the item with an identical working item, they must provide a refund.

    • pkl111 on 05/01/2015 - 17:39
      +1

      According to law they have to fix it / replace it. If that cannot be done then the consumer is entitled to a refund.

    • [Deactivated] on 03/01/2015 - 15:01
      +65

      Considered making a massive scene so the police would be called and see what happens.

      I can tell you what happens: much embarrassment. For you.

      P.S. I hope you're joking about that, too. People who actually need emergency services end up waiting longer than they need to because of dumb crap like that.

      • pkl111 on 05/01/2015 - 17:40

        Police would most likely not come. It's a matter for the ACCC or just ring harvey Norman head office if they don't want to comply

        • Ughhh on 05/01/2015 - 17:51
          +1

          If OP was to make a massive scene, the Police or at least security would most definitely come, not to sort out OPs refund, they wouldn't give a shit, but to get rid of the OP from the store. ACCC wouldn't care if OP ended up in jail.

        • pkl111 on 05/01/2015 - 18:07

          @JLove: yeah I agree but they would have to make a pretty big scene for that to happen. If they refuse the best path would be head office then accc

        • Tal_Shiar on 06/01/2015 - 05:39

          the police would come. to remove tunzafun001 from the store…

    • Settero on 03/01/2015 - 15:02
      +11

      why would not having a manager available be illegal ? they dont just sit around waiting to be called you know , they have other responsibilities which may very well keep them from being able to help you, even if they are on premises.

    • [Deactivated] on 03/01/2015 - 16:57
      +8

      So they didn't refuse to give you a refund, just said they weren't allowed without management on-site and invited you to come back another time. They have met their legal rights, they will offer a refund, just were unable to at that time (probably due to store policy).
      You going in spouting off about consumer law will just get you nowhere, and if you actually considered the making a scene situation it gives insight into how reasonable you were probably being to the staff members.

    • Davo1111 on 03/01/2015 - 18:06
      +13

      you do realise that if the police came, you'd get removed and nothing else would happen?

      • Sammy2000 on 04/01/2015 - 16:21
        +5

        He wouldn't be allowed back in to the store to get a refund.

    • allyemil on 05/01/2015 - 11:18
      +2

      See, it is people like you why I'm glad I'm not in retail and never will be because quite frankly i don't know if i would be able to restrain myself from knocking you down on your a$$.
      I'm not justifying HN and/or their staff but your attitude and your "principal" is downright bullying.

  • c64 on 03/01/2015 - 15:16
    +8

    the accc would probably be interested. they have previously prosecuted harvey norman franchises: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/nine-harvey-norman-fra…

    the text of the article suggests that you are entitled to a refund

    "For goods purchased on or after 1 January 2011, where a good develops a major fault, consumers have a right to a replacement or refund from the supplier of the good. "

    but determine what your actual rights for your situation are from the accc site first.

    • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:26
      +1

      Cheers for the link. This is exactly what I will be following up on.

      • samboread on 04/01/2015 - 15:13

        how about instead of making a complaint ring the store and talk to a manager when they are in, I'm sure they will be happy to help

        • tunzafun001 on 04/01/2015 - 21:37
          +1

          Did this last year, and they are still trying to get away with it. Next step time. The manager is actually very arrogant and is probably the source of the problem. But fair call in any other instance.

        • Tal_Shiar on 06/01/2015 - 05:41
          +1

          @tunzafun001:

          tunzafun001 on 04/01/2015 - 20:37
          Did this last year, and they are still trying to get away with it

          …

          tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 13:59
          I don't shop there, never will. It was a gift. Want HN accountable on prinicipal.

          So do you shop there or do you not?

        • tunzafun001 on 06/01/2015 - 12:07

          @Tal_Shiar:
          After the incident last year I'm never shopping there again. This was a gift?? ..not sure of your angle here??
          I want HN accountable so others who don't read this post dont experience the same run around..

  • Ughhh on 03/01/2015 - 15:17
    +9

    Not interested in the other rubbish they had

    Im a little confused, dont they stock the same "rubbish" as other stores like JB Hifi, TGG etc., unless its a house brand.

  • chumlee on 03/01/2015 - 15:18

    Australian Consumer Law doesn't state that a manager needs to be present for a refund so yes HN is in breach.

    I would go back and tell them you want it repaired or a full refund or you will contact the ACCC

    • Ughhh on 03/01/2015 - 15:29
      +10

      Does the Australian consumer law also state that any staff at any rank should have the authorisation to proceed with a refund without prior consent?

      This sounds like a store policy which imo is reasonable. They're not saying they cant refund no matter what, they're saying they just cant at that moment without authorisation.

      • chumlee on 03/01/2015 - 15:37
        +20

        ACL says OP is entitled to a refund. HN with its internal policy of needing a manager on duty is in breach for not refunding OP. A retail operation like HN would have a 2IC or even a 3IC that could authorise it. I find it impossible to believe there was no manager on duty.

        • Almost Banned on 03/01/2015 - 15:59
          +7

          I don't understand who is down voting you Chum.
          The law is pretty straight-forward on this issue.
          Apparently the good = is a kettle. It is pretty fundamental to its function that it actually hold water.
          Therefore a refund is required.
          There is no requirement that the customer must comply with any random 'store policy'. HN must provide a refund, not excuses. Not having the correct staff available is not an excuse under the ACL.

        • stringbean402 on 03/01/2015 - 19:15
          +2

          @blaircam:

          Agreed

        • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:29
          +3

          Basically word for word what I said to them! But they're just playing games.

        • This Guy on 04/01/2015 - 00:47
          +2

          When the staff member said manager they meant franchisee.

          Warranty claims often take months. Is that 'in breach'? Like JLove said, the staff member just said they can't refund an item at that moment.

        • tunzafun001 on 04/01/2015 - 01:15
          -1

          Can't agree with this enough. I'm amazed that anyone would except the no qualified staff available line..from a national retailer!! This model also implies Gerry is happy to waste customers time to save on employee costs. "Come back when its convenient for us, at your cost & hopefully you will just go away".

        • GaryQ on 04/01/2015 - 14:16
          +1

          Pick up a $1000 Coffee machine and tell them you have decided to accept this substitute instead. Begin to walk towards exit. Count on one hand how many seconds it takes for a Manager to MAGIC into appearance

        • Ughhh on 05/01/2015 - 16:50

          ACL says OP is entitled to a refund.

          Never said OP wasn't entitled to a refund, no one said he wasn't. OP seems to have assumed the worse scenario without giving it a chance.

          OP, why dont you just go behind the register and grab the $118 cash + $time + $travel +$bonus for doing their work from the till, and if anyone questions you, just quote the ACL and your entitlements.

        • anthonyaaa on 07/01/2015 - 13:12

          @GaryQ: u walk out those front doors you will be charged and arrested…. its called theft… technically larceny. Carry's a 1 year maximum sentence and a criminal record.

        • GaryQ on 08/01/2015 - 08:39

          @anthonyaaa:

          Since you are the defender of all things Harvey Norman on this thread, ask yourself how I would be charged with theft? A staff member is not authorised to detain me. If a Manager attempts to do so, then… VOILA = a Manager exists and can authorise my refund.

          Success!

        • Ughhh on 08/01/2015 - 10:43

          @GaryQ:

          You're right, staff member can't and wouldn't detain you, they would just wait for you too exit the doors while having the police on speed dial. See who has more time. Plenty of evidence to prosecute you and your your refund story wouldn't be relevant to your arrest. Most stupid tactic imo that can easily backfire.

        • anthonyaaa on 08/01/2015 - 14:02

          @GaryQ: alot of coles's, jb-hi-fi's even harvey norman hire security at the front doors checking bags and receipts… otherwise also westfields security can detain you when the buzzers go off cause staff didnt scan the items security features, they are all pointing at you and shouting for u to stop. because you carrying a $1000 coffee machine is very easy to spot while the buzzer is screaming beep beep beep beep.. trust me if the harvey norman security didnt catch you one of the 150 cameras inside Westfield security team will pick you

          p.s no not really just harvey norman… I defend any small business who has done nothing seriously illegal or wrong except for… example if manager was sick couldn't come in and half of this website are gona crucify them and all say no one shop there anymore lets destroy their business which took that mum and dad years and years to build die die die ra ra ra… come on…(might not be in those exact words but, ACL breaking criminals.. everyone lets report them to ACCC… call the police….dont shop their again…everyone lets start stealing $1000 coffee machines… come onnnnnnnnnn)

          it really upsets me… again like I said do what u like to Woolworths… apple… major corporations but leave small family owned business who are run by mums and dads alone cause they are not perfect cant afford to hire 50 people in their 500 square metre apple shop. scary thing is they end up paying a higher percentage in tax than apple, google, facebook, amazon, wetfields, qantas(they loose money every year fair enough), twitter etc etc… go attack those ones… they sholud be close to perfect posting Billions in profits probably have 100's layers of hierarchy so im pretty sure apple can afford to have a state manager, regional manager, district managers,area manager, senior store manager, junior store manager, duty managers, main supervisor, shift supervisor, senior technician, junior technician,store room manager, senior sales staff, junior sales staff, trainee, work experience year10 kid! all possible to be in the 1 shop any time!

        • McFly on 08/01/2015 - 21:55
          +1

          @anthonyaaa: If a business - no matter the size - can't fulfil their obligations according to law then they have no… business… being in business.

        • anthonyaaa on 09/01/2015 - 10:05

          @McFly:

          @anthonyaaa:

          @anthonyaaa:

          again you simply just jumped in without reading any of my above posts like I already told you… please read above posts…

          manager was unavailable… was sick late held up whatever… are you to tell me you are perfect and have never been sick? late? if your partner is giving pregnant in hospital are you not going to leave your almighty "legal obligation" as a cop and run straight to hospital?? as a store manager ?? as a courier?? if that's not convincing enough how about a bad car accident and your partner is on the verge of death?? or your child or loved one?? would not even a Supreme Court Judge just walk out of his almighty ! god demanding legal obligation to listen to the court case and walk out halfway through??????? stop please stop !!!! I am no longer going to listen to your pety demands of society when you as a person can sit here and say you have never been late… taken time off work… sick…. forgot… had an unforeseeable issue or problem.. if that is the case then we are robots… who are infallible and will never let you down…

          please read my above 2 posts before replying to me otherwise you are just going to waste your and my time… saying they should hire someone else again… like I said several times… for example if there are major traffic delays in Sydney like a couple days ago and all the managers are stuck in traffic…(Yes many places regular staff have keys to open and lock up) or a terrorists holding up half of the cbd…. please dont bring up any further arguments that I have already mentioned in my several essays above… bring up something I have not mentioned and I will happily reply … again to find all my posts if you dont already know on this thread type CTRL+F and type name and all will be highlighted and easy for you do search using up and down arrow

      • GaryQ on 05/01/2015 - 07:51

        HN always has a floor manager on deck regardless of where the Franchisee or actual manager is. And if the Floor Manager is not available, it will pass to someone like the guy behind the Tech counter, so that staff know where to go to ask questions / call in sick / have a whinge about uppity customers.

        You're dreaming if you don't think HN has a hierachy

    • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:34
      +9

      Who said I didnt have a receipt? It was a gift, the purchaser gave me the receipt. A bit quick to assume & shoot down.

      • stringbean402 on 04/01/2015 - 12:09
        +2

        Yep. There is absolutely no justifiable excuse for their games. Please do make a report to the ACCC. Hopefully if enough people do it the franchisee will be dragged through court for the non-compliance.

    • TassieJones14 on 06/01/2015 - 00:05

      Feel bad about yourself for making a"stupid" post. People here are judgmental as hell - time to get euthanised, I guess.

      keyboardwarriors

    • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:35
      +5

      I do have the receipt??

  • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:18
    +29

    1. I didn't make a scene, nor seek police assistance as they have enough BS to deal with.

    2. I Do have the receipt & the product is in warranty, and would be happy with a replacement as its part of a set. They no longer have them, Target down the road do.

    3. Living in a rural area, Harveys is a significant drive away. To be asked to repeat the journey two days later because they can't be bothered putting on a staff member who can do a refund is not fair. Clearly they are using this an an excuse not to give me a refund. Fair chance I'll rock up Monday, and be told exactly what the same.

    Guess I'm being an unreasonable consumer. Neg away. Thanks to those who provided constructive feedback.

    • Daabido on 03/01/2015 - 19:41
      +5

      I would ring to confirm a Manager was on site before making the trip again. Let your fingers do the walking.

      And depending on the outcome after visiting the store, you can escalate further if necessary.

      • tunzafun001 on 03/01/2015 - 19:53
        +3

        Just thought it would be a legal requirement to have a person on site who can uphold their Australian Consumer Law obligations (ie issue refunds)?

        • Daabido on 03/01/2015 - 19:59

          It probably is for all I know. I haven't looked into it. I was just saying, if you find out a Manager is available, make the trip and still get the run around, your case will be stronger than turning up again and getting the "no Manager" available line.

          You are entitled to a refund. It is just unfortunate that they are playing ridiculous games.

        • [Deactivated] on 04/01/2015 - 01:46
          +3

          I wouldn't be overly surprised if there actually was someone there authorised to process the refund, mentioning consumer law to sales staff is a surefire way of getting stonewalled.
          I know a bunch of people who work as salespeople and they will do as little to help as possible when people start mentioning ACL and the ACCC.

        • whooah1979 on 04/01/2015 - 08:22
          +2

          @bercilak:

          like bercilak said. referring to acl or legal blah blah should be the last resort. some shops will often refer the customer to their legal or complaints department when confronted with legal issues.

    • This Guy on 04/01/2015 - 01:00
      -1

      It's a Saturday. Shouldn't the franchisee be allowed to take the day off to spend some time with their family?

      • [Deactivated] on 04/01/2015 - 11:19
        +2

        What does the franchisee have to do with a store making a refund? Managers / acting managers can make refunds themselves.

        • This Guy on 04/01/2015 - 23:27
          -3

          Many franchisee's I know are the managers. The store is run the way they want it and they don't have to worry about management fraud.

          Retail attracts incompetence. Good staff leave for better roles. Expecting an acting manager to be competent is hoping just a little too much.

        • [Deactivated] on 05/01/2015 - 12:29
          +1

          @This Guy:

          Dont make incompetent staff acting managers?

        • This Guy on 06/01/2015 - 12:25

          @Drew22:

          Not always that easy.

        • TassieJones14 on 06/01/2015 - 17:55

          @This Guy: No. The franchisee is not allowed to take a day off if they are the manager and only person competent enough to make a warranty claim/process.

        • This Guy on 09/01/2015 - 02:41

          Nope. Read page 26 of the ACCC's Warranties and refunds: a guide for consumers and business

          http://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Warranties%20and%20refun…

          OP is demanding a full refund. Full refunds are generally only for goods faulty out of box. A store credit for the full amount after over 6 months of use is fairly generous:

          "A consumer is entitled to receive a full refund
          when they cancel (or ‘rescind’) their contract of
          sale with the seller.

          The right under the Act to cancel a contract and
          get a refund is generally limited to a reasonable
          time after a consumer receives a good – this is
          usually before the consumer has used the goods
          a lot.          "

          (Page 7/8)

        • [Deactivated] on 09/01/2015 - 12:00

          @This Guy: I must be dreaming because I could have sworn the OP made it clear that he was initially after a replacement but as HN apparently doesn't stock them the only two options are repair (hardly) or refund so he can try to buy elsewhere. Simple matter to inspect the kettle to see if it's been abused and hence might fit your scenario.

          "Fairly generous"? Your standards are obviously lower than mine and many others, including Morphy Richards Au if my reading of their website is accurate. I've returned our Breville smart kettle twice for replacements (one lasted about 15 months, the other 9) and TGG replaced it both times without fuss. The last time they offered either a refund or replacement with the new pricier model.

      • valour on 05/01/2015 - 18:02
        +2

        Yeah, he wants to take time off to spend with his family and fair enough. Other people would like to do the same as well, but I see a push by the employers to employ others on a Sunday with no penalty rates so the owners can take their time off. Meanwhile the workers at the coal face, have to come in because with the rising unemployment in Australia it is don't want to come in, fine we will get someone else who will.

        • This Guy on 06/01/2015 - 12:22

          Mate I agree with you

  • [Deactivated] on 03/01/2015 - 20:22
    +5

    Cool down mate,
    I guess people are mad cos of the way you put it down into words not actual story.
    They should provide a refund if this was the case as it does not make any scenes not having a 2IC! but probably this story has their end too?
    I bet none of the neggers would do what they suggest! Not on Ozbargain
    Contact ACCC for the inconvenience, they need the lesson, I dont want it happen to me next time I am there if at all.

    • tunzafun001 on 04/01/2015 - 00:20
      +4

      Yep fair call. Was a bit steamed when writing as Harvey's have tried this same move on me before. Didn't have much pleasantries left in me.

  • PJC on 03/01/2015 - 20:37
    +1

    OP does not mention a receipt in the initial description, then later informs it was a gift and assures us of never shopping at HN. On that basis, store credit seemed a reasonable result. Especially if the travel costs are discouraging. No offence was intended.

  • whooah1979 on 03/01/2015 - 21:00

    Was this item paid for with cash or cc?

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