Acting Respectfully (Friendly Reminder)

hamza23 on 09/06/2015 - 14:25
Last edited 11/06/2015 - 02:55 by 1 other user

Acting Respectfully

OzBargain members are quick to jump on a good deal but are not easily fooled by those deals that aren't. Certain posts may call for negativity or scrutiny, however there is a proper way to express yourself and we wanted this to act as a general reminder.

We don't want to create an environment where certain members, old or new, are scared to contribute due to the prospect of ridicule or hostility. Comments don't need to be sugar-coated, but lets act respectfully, properly and keep this community great - we all make mistakes.

We want to continue to build and shape the culture here on OzBargain, so let us all THINK before commenting on all occasions (is your comment/reply True, Helpful, Inspiring, Necessary and Kind).

As Neil stated last year in a similar post (R U OK OzBargainers?): Comments have consequences. People don't come here to be attacked and bullied. It's not us trying to censor you, it's us responding to complaints. While some may say 'suck it up' and that 'people should not be so sensitive', you should be aware that we don't truly know the people behind these accounts. Some are younger, some may come to here to escape a tough reality, be mentally unbalanced, or they possibly could have thick skin (we just don't know). Maybe in 2015 we all can treat each other respectfully, we are professionals after all. ;)

Sound off in the comments if you have any opinions or suggestions. Should you wish to discuss anything with moderators directly/privately please do so via TWAM.

Thanks for reading,
The OzBargain team.

Site Discussion

Comments

  • Moderatorneil on 11/06/2015 - 12:13

    There are some varying opinions here but I'll just make a couple of points.

    • The purpose of this thread is to stop for a second and think about what you are posting and the effect is has on others.

    • If there is a comment you think doesn't meet the community commenting guidelines, then report the comment using the report link. Even if you are unsure, doesn't matter, just click report.

    This point is so important, I'll repeat it again in big font.

    Hit the report link if there is a issue with comment or post.

    Of course, you can have private conversations with a moderator in the Talk with a Moderator forum.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 14:57
    +1

    i keep getting to be told to be nice.
    im always nice

    • Lukian on 11/06/2015 - 16:22
      +1

      I think you are nice tuzii!

      • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 16:24

        naww <3 thanks you too Lukian

  • Penalty boxer on 11/06/2015 - 15:41

    I wish I could upvote this post

  • Clear on 11/06/2015 - 16:55
    +7

    As a Store Rep myself it really sucks when people neg your comments when you're trying to help people that are having issues.

  • arcticmonkey on 11/06/2015 - 19:02

    If you want people to be nice, you should make it so people can only give an individual a negative vote with a comment.

    There are a lot of juvenile/gutless people on here that neg a comment without giving a rebuttal. These gutless people need to go.

    • This Guy on 12/06/2015 - 05:46
      +1

      A neg vote is a rebuttal. It's just a no, I disagree with something in this comment. Nothing more. Nothing less.

      I don't expect a stranger in the street to write me an essay every time they disagree with me. Why should it be any different on the internet?

      • arcticmonkey on 12/06/2015 - 07:30
        -1

        I disagree - a neg without a comment is a gutless and cowardly act and offers no rebuttal. It spreads the negativity the OP talks about.

        • This Guy on 13/06/2015 - 05:38

          Name calling strangers "juvenile," "gutless" and "cowardly" because you disagree with them is both negative and a form of bullying.

          Subtracting one point from a comment's popularity score because you disagree with the content or the way it was expressed is not. Everything a person writes is not solid gold. The world dosne't revolve around myself or anyone I disagree with. Why are we enabling this way of thinking in our society?

      • iridiumstem on 12/06/2015 - 22:25
        +2

        I think the problem is, everyone is on different page in terms of how they take a "neg". You may think it as, just saying "no", whereas other people might find it insulting. Some people just might see it as a quota you need to spend. So while I don't disagree that your argument in real life is reasonable, it may not be the case online. Especially since being online does get rid of a lot of parts of communication (i.e. tones, gestures etc), giving a lot of rooms for misinterpretations.

        • This Guy on 13/06/2015 - 05:40

          A frowny face doesn’t mean a person is worthless. Why would a neg?

        • iridiumstem on 13/06/2015 - 08:55

          @This Guy: Yes, but not everyone sees a neg as a "frowny face", that's the problem. If I go in deeper, technically speaking, how somone sees/reacts to a frowny face would differ between individuals as well, but that's slightly going off tangent.

        • This Guy on 14/06/2015 - 02:18

          @AznMitch:

          It seems that neg's are poorly defined for comments. Why don't we define what a neg on a comment is on Ozbargin. Like use 'Plus' to quickly state you agree with a comment. Use 'Minus' to quickly state you have a different point of view. That way when someone's feelings get hurt (which happens way too often) we can say sorry, the neg's are not personal, a few other people have a different point of view to you. (I am sure there could be a better definition that this proposal).

          Another way to change neg's would be to give a drop down menu like when reporting a comment, but with only constructive options.

          Another way we might remove the issue is give neg's a constructive name and an uplifting colour instead of red.

          When a user is logged in neg's could be hidden. Or we could have a limit on visible neg's (only show a few when there are many and truncate the upvote list to hide this behaviour).

          Another idea is to have a newbie section which is more highly moderated with a stricter code of conduct for comments to ease them into this site.

          The issue is people thinking of a neg as a personal attack. If it's not too hard to implement, why don't we change neg's so that they can never be seen as one.

          Sorry for the wall of text mate. I just like how you're attacking this issue.

        • iridiumstem on 14/06/2015 - 18:07
          +1

          @This Guy: TL;DR: I think we need to make sure that people read guidelines and negs should be less ambiguous.

          Meh, it was a good read. I personally like where you are coming from, though I think the issue of that would be, there are no reinforcements on reading rules or guidelines. Not saying that it's easy or anything like that, but some of the new posts I see have errors that are clearly avoidable if you pay attention to the rules (i.e. + Shipping, price in title, store in title etc). So I am getting the feeling that there are people who join and not read the guidelines carefully.

          So I think along with what you've said, I think Ozbargain should force the newcomers to read the rules and guidelines. If they mentioned something like "neg is not there to insult blah blah" it may help or make people feel less insulted about the negs. If people don't read the guidelines, what's the point in changing the guidelines and reinforcing it?

          Though that being said, I think the underlying problem with people getting offended by neg is actually due to the ambiguity. Negs are used a tool for self-moderation by the community, an unfair -'ve vote, insults, etc gets negged to oblivion (more than often). While it has its flaws (i.e. people negging because others have negged, majority doesn't mean it's right etc), I think it's a solid option for this community. That being said, it does give negs a sense of strong negativity. It almost gives it a vibe of "This should not be on this website". Of course, whether you'd think that would depend on person, but I think it's a possibility. I personally like your idea of changes to negs so that the negs that are given out as a "moderation tool by the community" and simple "I don't agree with your opinion" would reduce people getting insulted by the negs.

          Just my opinion.

      • natsumezoku on 14/06/2015 - 21:18
        +1

        No, negging is for comments that are not adding to the discussion or for people who are outright being unjustifiably offensive.

        Simply having a different opinion to what is posted is not what negging is for.

        Heck it is totally possible for 2 opposing opinions to simultaneously be valid and co-exist because everyone has their own subjective lens through which they see things. Eg. some like simplicity while others like being in control (ios vs android)

        Because all that does is either create flame-wars or stifle any discussion and discourages people from commenting because why would anyone bother speaking their opinion when they know they're opinion is not the generally accepted one.

        Then all you get is a bunch of yes-men who only comment when they know their opinion is already the popular one, what is even the point of a forum like that? No discussion, just people circle-jerking the popular opinion. And the people who are not with the popular 'in' crowd feel left out because anything they say will get down-voted so they simply don't bother participating.

        Most forums generally have something along those lines written into their posting guide faqs. But as usual no one actually reads the faqs (for the other sites) and do whatever they want and the vast majority just neg whatever opinion they disagree with.

        And while there is no formal entry in the faq on this site on comment negging, I think there should be and in my opinion it most definitely should mention that negging is not for people who have a different opinion.

        • This Guy on 15/06/2015 - 01:44

          I got -70 on one comment. I understood that most people didn't agree with me on that point and moved on. Most of my favourite posters will get massive neg's regularly too.

          I generally only neg people abusing helpers. The faq clearly defines negs for deals, but is more ambiguous for comments. And we have awards for most negs and what not.

          This community is extremely laid back except for the few people who consider a single neg bullying and the few kids who join to ask google-able questions.

          Don't get me wrong, I like the current system, but if discussions like this are making front page then the mod's might or might not want to tweak something

        • natsumezoku on 15/06/2015 - 11:33

          @This Guy:

          The thing is there are a ton of people who can brush it off such as yourself and keep on trucking and commenting.

          But the unseen result is a lot of shyer people literally stop commenting because they get massively negged on a single comment, and subsequently participate less or don't at all and just stick to lurking. We don't see the metrics on those people because they're not the ones commenting.

          It's not really fair to someone to neg them just for having an opinion solely because you have a different opinion.

          As much as people who actively comment like to say 'it's only meaningless points,' but to a lot of people having a highly or poorly rated comment can significantly impact their self-esteem and mood from the feeling of being accepted. And no surprise people who feel that way wont comment with an opposing opinion, because surprise surprise they're worried about getting negged for having a dissenting opinion.

          I generally only neg people abusing helpers.

          Exactly, that's what negs should be for. But the comment of yours I was replying to was advocating a completely different use for it. And I really hope this thread gets the mods to ratify that position in the faq.

        • This Guy on 15/06/2015 - 13:22

          @natsumezoku:

          The problem seems to be neg's for comment's could use a definition that would take the sting out of them.

          The OP in this chain said negging is bulling then name called a few hundred people they disagreed with. My personal opinion name calling is worse than negging someone. This is where my comments are comming from.

        • natsumezoku on 15/06/2015 - 16:28

          @This Guy:

          I agree with you that comment negs could do with a guideline in the faq.

          I do not agree with you as to what that guideline would be. As per reasons I went over in my previous message.

          And I do not think the OP of this chain was really name calling. Since they were pointing out something that they truly believe is juvenile and gutless. Bullying isn't exactly a mature thing to do.

          I'm not sure how they could express those feelings without the use of those adjectives.

        • Moderatorneil on 15/06/2015 - 16:34

          @natsumezoku:

          Guidelines are useful if they are enforceable. Unfortunately, we don't know the reasons why each user positive and negative vote comments. Just to add, negative voting a comment from a user who places a negative deal vote, will revoke the vote once enough votes are garnered.

          Voting Guidelines

          EDIT: I should add that for users not logged into the site, negative voted comments under a certain threshold will not show.

          EDIT2: In my personal experience of looking at 1000s of negatively voted comments, the majority of them are very useless comments. The exception are when a rep gets negatively voted comments when there is an issue with a deal. In a situation like this, where the comment contains important information, we bypass the hiding of comments despite the vote.

        • natsumezoku on 17/06/2015 - 23:41
          +1

          @neil:

          Yes I completely understand that it's not really 'enforceable' in a strict sense.

          And yes I agree the vast majority of people on this site aren't down-vote happy and use it responsibly. Even user 'This Guy' stated he uses down-votes in the way I suggest as opposed to his own suggestion of simply an 'I don't agree' button.

          Please keep in mind that my response was directly in relation to use 'This Guy's comment in saying that a down-vote button is simply an 'I don't agree button' and not a reflection of the OzBargain community.

          However simply ratifying it in the faq alone will encourage people to perhaps down-vote less or at least so members have something to point to whenever the topic ever comes up.

          And for those who don't bother reading the faq's, I believe down-voting on comments would do well to have a drop down box similar to reporting a bargain.

          Click down-vote then have a drop down box of suggested valid reasons for a down-vote, and also a box to enter your own reason if it isn't on the list (and perhaps a 'not agreeing with an opinion is not a valid reason to down-vote' if that is the path you wish to choose for the site.

          It wont stop everyone but it will at least stop accidental down-votes and also make others stop a think for a second if a comment really is worthy of a down-vote.

          Above this line is my main reply below is just an extra added on food for thought kind of thing.

          I wouldn't even mind a voting system like Slashdots website uses if that were an option. Basically most users only get a handful of moderation points a week (I think it's about 5, more depending on your standing in the community). Post can be rated as informative, funny, interesting etc. And those comments that are voted up have the highest visibility while others that are redundant etc have click to shows (and if you're logged in you can set what threshold a comment must be to be automatically expanded).

          http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/06/11/037213/reddit-remove… Here is Slashdot's take on the whole reddit thing that brought up this post too and if you compare it to reddit's own comments on the topic the difference is night and day.

          http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=7533811&cid=4988888… This particular comment chain demonstrates well why I dislike reddit's voting system of simply basic easy to digest (although not exactly accurate) answers get the most votes simply because how quickly a post gets votes in the first few minutes has a drastic impact on how much visibility it gets. So dumbed down, easily digested things like memepics get huge amounts of visibility whilst more thought provoking things that take longer to read are at a disadvantage.

          Of course Reddit, Slashdot and OzBargain are all different sites with different types of comments for the discussion and the vast differences in membership size mean that something that works for one site wont work for another.

          And I'm completely aware a change like that is extremely drastic and probably not worth the effort.

  • Wallyt99 on 11/06/2015 - 19:27
    +2

    Crap thread.

    • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 19:52
      +2

      Yes. Truly pointless.

    • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 22:39
      -2

      :)

  • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 19:52
    +2

    Just allow people to view the names of neggers just like we can for the up voters. See the number of negs reduce in no time. Hopefully people will show more respect once the cloak of anonymity is removed.

    • Moderatorneil on 11/06/2015 - 20:02

      They were visible in the past and it caused a huge increase in users fighting unfortunately.

      • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 20:10
        +1

        OK. Wasn't aware that this used to be the case before.

        How about weekly stats like who's the most prolific negger or allowing only one neg per day. For me, a neg without a reason is akin to hit and run.

        • RockyRaccoon on 11/06/2015 - 20:20
          +3

          Well sometimes some of us neg AND comment. Problem is that you wont know that.

          Then sometimes we make a "negative" comment but the neg vote was someone else, and it's assumed that it was you voting negative…

          But as Neil says public neg voting in many instances created more negative back.

          Maybe neg/pos voting should be for deals and comments are "agreed" with, or "Disagreed" with as thats a little more friendly term

      • arcticmonkey on 12/06/2015 - 07:33
        +1

        So you censor people instead? I didn't ask OzB to be my government or protector. I'd prefer this is transparent. It is still only a username after all.

      • muncan on 12/06/2015 - 09:15

        Why not have no negs?
        If you can't say something nice, then you shouldn't say anything at all.

  • Ughhh on 11/06/2015 - 21:13
    +3

    The word 'negative' and the red minus sign does give a negative vibe and may agitate some people imo, causing them to take it more personal and to heart. Sort of like a punch in the face. What if the green (+) and firey red (-) were replaced with something more friendly, like emojis or 'yeh! and meh'. So instead of a punch in the face, it'll be like a poke in the face, which is more friendly.

  • gimli on 11/06/2015 - 21:16
    +4

    I think there have been quite a few recent examples when people have posted in the forums when they were in a tough situation (often due to their own mistakes) and have had very harsh responses. (e.g. the posts on speeding)

    I think the people making these posts are already under stress and the crap we give them is uncalled for and makes them feel worse. We really should be mindful of how we are going to make them feel.

    Also I wonder how JV feels. I think he collectively gets bullied lol.

    • jdf on 11/06/2015 - 21:25
      +1

      ^ I agree with everything you said except the part about JV, JV bullies more than he is bullied.

      • momov3 on 11/06/2015 - 21:29
        +1

        Now in order to find out who's correct, I have to sneeky peak at JV's posts to see what this debate is about. But isn't this also a personal attack - personal naming of the forum's members being bullies. It is a subjective thing too, someone may see him as being a bully, another perceives him as the victim. I feel names should be left out.

        • gimli on 11/06/2015 - 21:40

          point taken I agree
          I should have left that out.

    • Moderatorneil on 11/06/2015 - 22:37

      Yes, that's a good point Jubba and especially the threads that acquire enough comments to be featured on the front page. If anyone sees threads like those getting a bit crazy, then please let us know.

    • This Guy on 12/06/2015 - 06:02
      +1

      The hardest part is trying to support these people in a way that won't be down voted to oblivion.

      It's often not one person, but the wall of people giving just a slight negative comment. You can't really reply to one person because by themselves they are often doing nothing wrong.

      Even when you do genuinely support the op, they often turn on you anyway. Or someone else will ignore your whole reply and pick up something irrelevant and change the conversation. But this is a public forum, not a private conversation…

      The current thread locking solution sacrifices the OP for an interesting conversation, but I can't think of a better solution.

      • PlagueistheCheap on 24/06/2015 - 19:39
        +1

        It's the same person doing the bullying there. The exact same some that complained about bullying.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2015 - 22:40

    very well done m8 10/10

  • String name on 12/06/2015 - 01:40

    I think a good metric is to see how outsiders to the community see OzBargain. I was playing GTA (with the OzBargain tag, of course) and heard quite the insult at how Ozbargain is portrayed as a toxic and stingy group of people.

    • [Deactivated] on 12/06/2015 - 01:41

      What did we pollute? What does toxic even mean?

        • [Deactivated] on 12/06/2015 - 01:47

          We share a common aspect of greed but are bound with love as we understand economies of scale and maximsing bargaining power. Now OzBargain is a national bargaining syndicate to be reckoned with it, we musn't forget our roots, every deal needs to be scrutinised and peer reviewed if we wish to prosper.

        • momov3 on 12/06/2015 - 11:46

          @Davo93:

          We share a common aspect of 'greed'

          Hey I would have thought a kinder word to be 'resourcefulness'!

  • Ramrunner on 12/06/2015 - 07:59

    I for one fully agree. Not just on the actual bargain posts though! I'm sick responding to all these "What's your opinion?", "What should I do?", "What would you do?" posts when I have something to contribute from experience.

    I always remain polite and reasonable, but then the OP or others don't agree with what I say the post gets negged. Doesn't happen very often, but bugs me when my post has a -1 on it.

    You should only ever neg a post if the opinion/advise is WRONG, RUDE, or in other way negative, not just because it's not what you want to hear or what you would do.

    Remember, myself or whoever took time out to actually responds and try to answer your question. Help was asked for and attempted to be given.

    I for one have stopped bothering on a lot of occasions and if everybody did that, the site would be useless.

    My 2c. Same goes for bargains. I only ever neg if it's OBVIOUSLY spam. I never neg if I don't think it's a bargain. That's my opinion. Doesn't mean others think different.

    • andy19363 on 12/06/2015 - 09:02

      I only ever neg if it's OBVIOUSLY spam.

      Why?

      Inappropriate uses of negative vote
      Any negative vote that falls into any of these reasons will be revoked by a moderator.
      No explanation of the vote
      “Not a bargain.”
      “Agree”
      “SPAM”

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/wiki/help:voting_guidelines

      The Report button is an additional tool provided to all members to assist in quickly identifying inappropriate posts and comments.
      The Report button can be found underneath each deal, forum post and comment. You will find a number of reasons that you can choose such as:
      Duplicate
      Sold Out
      Expired
      Affiliate/Referral
      Illegal/Inappropriate
      Insufficient Quantity
      Not Available to Australia
      NSFW
      Sockpuppeting
      Spam

      There are only 3 reasons for a neg vote

      Appropriate uses of negative vote

      Cheaper price elsewhere
      Mention store or URL and price making sure to include shipping.

      Defective product
      The product has been recalled
      Major issue with product in that it doesn't work the way it should.

      Major issue with retailer
      Didn't receive previous purchase.
      Shipping time exceeding expected wait.

      of course, these days, the guidelines are largely ignored….

      • andy19363 on 12/06/2015 - 14:10

        Mob negging

        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/198089

        Not one valid neg…. Reported hours ago, but no action taken

        of course, these days, the guidelines are largely ignored….

        I should have clarified…. ignored by members and moderators

  • dinkyfish on 12/06/2015 - 22:13
    +2

    My first and last post received a negative comment and point- just for asking people not to be harsh on a newbie… never posted again.

    • dd721411 on 13/06/2015 - 02:36
      +4

      Don't worry about those a*****es. They're not worth a cent. Keep posting deals that you think are good enough to share and let Mods do their job. :)

    • rodinthink on 14/06/2015 - 13:24
      +1

      Either am I. First post was going allright, then 2nd post I mistakenly think that the price is bargain, then I got rape-neg.
      Regret to post bargain again and will never do , there is no encouragement for user to post bargain.

      • dd721411 on 15/06/2015 - 01:37

        Cheer up my friend! Some people just don't understand that, being Territorians (and our Tassie fellas as well), it is very hard for us to find good deals. Even though sometimes we see a good one and want to share on OZB, we are pretty much afraid to post because the fear of being humiliated or voted down by other users.

        Not to mention newbies' posts, as some users have shared their disappointment above, got negged for some mistakes or their comments got voted down for silly reasons (and, most of the time, for NO REASON AT ALL). 1 neg, "it's OK, let's try another post". 2 negs, "what is/are wrong with my post(s)? Why don't people tell me anything?". 3 or more negs, "I'm done! Bye!". We're much appreciated that you leave some constructive and useful comments on how we can improve our future posts rather than "cherry pick" some mistakes and play the voting game. What's the point of leaving bad marks without saying anything? If you can click your mouse then you can definitely use your keyboard, right?

        And for those of "professional trolls", find something useful to contribute to the community. Don't waste your energy and people's time to read your pointless, irrelevant crap. For haters or mental-unbalanced-keyboard-and-mice @$$#0!3 heroes, please seek for treatment before it's too late.

        Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it!

      • dd721411 on 15/06/2015 - 02:25

        I read your "inappropriate-labeled" post before it was deleted by Mods and, man, just calm down. You went a little too far. I'm (Southeast) Asian and I felt a bit offended when you talked about us that way. :( But don't worry, I feel for your frustration so no hate from me :)

        And please understand Mods have to do their job that is to maintain "cleanliness" throughout this huge site. There are rules that we users need to follow. Your comment was censored because it breached one or more rules. Even though you got some good points, Mods had to delete it in the majority's favor.

        Keep your voice neutral or a bit funny may attract more positive votes and comments from other users. But if you react like the way you did before, haters are happy because they know where to use their negs for and you also become their daily target. (Though other users who felt offended by your comment and reported it to Mods were legit too!)

        BTW, why did soldiers have to masturbate on rocks? They could just use hands. Or they needed their hands always on guns. Sorry, it's not funny!

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