Just wondering what peoples opinion on the topic is?
Would it change your shopping habits?
At the moment halal certified products usually will have something at the bottom of the packet stating it's certified. You almost have to go out of your way to read it.
Yep we need a poll. But not just a "yes, no , maybe?" one. Would love to know if people are more likely to buy or not buy a product if it is clearly advertised as halal.
What about Kosher?
or vegan or nut-free… :)
But what is it you have an issue with - the animal slaughtering procedure? (I see you linked the RSPCA document below which makes me think that might be what concerns you)
@waterlogged turnip:Being bled to death sounds cruel to me. I would prefer the animal slaughtering to be pain-free for said animal. Personal choice.
Edit:
AFIC has strict rules with regards to Islamic slaughter. These rules state:
The slaughterer must be a sane adult Muslim.
The slaughterer must say the name of God before making the cut.
The name of God is said in order to emphasise the sanctity of life and that the animal is being killed for food with God's consent.
The animal must be killed by cutting the throat with one continuous motion of a sharp knife.
The cut must sever at least three of the trachea, oesophagus, and the two blood vessels on either side of the throat.
The spinal cord must not be cut.
Animals must be well treated before being killed.
Animals must not see other animals being killed.
The knife must not be sharpened in the animal's presence.
The knife blade must be free of blemishes that might tear the wound.
The animal must not be in an uncomfortable position.
The animal must be allowed to bleed out and be completely dead before further processing.
@tee123: As someone who has attended one of those 'halal' slaughtering for a Bakr-Eid, I can tell you that it was horrific! The animal was clearly in distress and semi-conscious for what felt like an eternity. Every time it tried to moo, more blood would come gushing out of its slashed throat. I don't eat meat anymore.
Halal vid warning : graphic
Linking to a random post on quora is hardly reputable.
The rspca doc linked below outlines in Australian abbatoirs they are mostly the same for the animal - stunned in both. Except the halal stunning is "reversible" - so on some occasions they wake up.
Knowing that would make me less likely to buy a product marked halal.
For anybody who missed last week's 4 Corners (or the '7-Eleven' expose the week before) -
www.abc.net.au/4corners
Mainly concerned with the general controversy, and also the business-side murk that exists below the surface of Halal Certification.
@Jar Jar Binks
The original 'Halal related' scandal (also on 4 Corners and in other disturbing reports, since) involving the truly horrific (base, and inhumane) treatment of cattle in Indonesia, related in part, to the differing interpretation between individuals overseeing slaughter (and in much of the Muslim World) over whether stunning of animals - to any level prior to slaughter - somehow interfered with Halal.
Along with various others, that issue has, supposedly, been attended to, if only in abattoirs where our particular cattle are sent.
Given the 'other disturbing reports, since' mentioned above, that is not to be believed, least from the willfully blind.
Certainly as it relates to animal slaughtering techniques and tradition, I share your concerns.
The slaughterer must be a sane adult Muslim.
lol
Sane
Be religious
I'm prepared for the downvotes.
@Jar Jar Binks: >The animal must not be in an uncomfortable position.
Other than the throat being cut lel.
@tee123: I find it bizarre that you regard cutting an animals throat while it's alive as humane and infer that it is more humane than stunning.
Your ideas about disturbing the meat and inferring that it is unclean also seem bizaare and irrational.
Is this a mainstream thing for Muslims?
Hence why I said its hard to swallow the idea of killing to eat. Obviously both methods end the life of an animal. That's a total different argument, I think the vegan people got caught up in the post.
@Jar Jar Binks:
"Allowing to bleed out" means not to start skinning or doing anything to the animal before bleeding stops on its own. The animal usually dies within seconds if the cut is done right.
must say the name of God before making the cut.
That sounds wrong. God has many names (traditionally 99) but they normally don't use any and just say "the god", ie Allah.
are you muslim?
why would u attend such an event..
Do u still eat/drink dairy or fully vegan?
@samBee: That seems to be more of a problem with Halal in that the abattoirs have less checks and balances to make sure the cuts are done right, time and time again not all the Halal principles are being followed. With Halal being such a large market (lots of Muslims to feed) there are probably a lot of market pressure to get more animals done faster, cheaper, so they take shortcuts. There have also been cases of Kosher abattoirs doing the same, but much less common because they have external oversight that take it very seriously.
@Jar Jar Binks: Must be a sane adult SUNNI MALE. I cant imagine the outcry if any other group had a whole industry reserve its jobs specifically for a particular religious male.
I don't eat anything that casts a shadow
@Jar Jar Binks:
You left out the bit that makes it the most inhumane aspect of it, that the animal must be fully conscious.
@tyler.durden: Bakr-Eid is more commonly known as Eid al-Adha in Australia. It is a joyous celebration for muslims. I was invited by a neighbour/close friend of my in-laws to join in the festivities.
And they didn't mention that they would be slaughtering live animals?
And after witnessing that event, you became fully vegan?
So you don't eat Vegemite??
Or Four n’ Twenty pies, Byron Bay Cookies, Nescafe, Colgate or Coopers beer?
Water is halal. Doesn't stop me consuming it, why would it?
I think you have to go searching for a lot of information on packaging such as nutritional content, its origin etc. why should the prominence of halal certification be more important than those things?
The issue isn't if something is 'halal', it's if a product has been altered to comply with halal or is paying for halal certification.
I wouldn't boycott these companies who need halal certification to export their products but I also think it's unnecessary that products which are obviously halal, such as water, need to be certified to reach the overseas Muslim market.
The halal part doesn't bother me, I just dislike the political correctness behind it. But like you said, there are more important things to consider when purchasing a product :)
True, as with everything its being made a money making machine. I am a Muslim and have to eat Halal, but seeing "Halal water" and thinking someone got paid to certify this is a very sad thing.
On the other hand I appreciate those who certify the cheese resin as Halal. So as with everything you have to take the good with the bad
Halal just means allowed, halal certified is just a scam. Just look at the ingredients list like everyone else and buy animal free rennet but no cheese is made with pork or alcohol rennet anyway. I don't want to pay for your religion thanks. I don't buy Sanitorium products or Kosher either. At least Kosher certification isn't on random products, there seems to be a push in Australia to label absolutely everything halal even if it's not actually halal, such as halal certified Hot Cross Buns (as the Cross is to a muslim like garlic is to a vampire) Also why should the majority have to eat halal certified meat when the meat itself is halal or allowed. Either slaughter your own meat or join the 21st century. When muslims were invading and colonising other countries they had dispensation to eat anything. Muhamamd (if he actually existed) said the food of the people of the book is halal.
Companies are hiding their halal certification, this should be illegal. We have the right to not buy halal certified foods. If the companies that are doing so had a massive muslim market to sell to,they would be open about their certification, there are some companies who have complained that they are pressured into paying for halal certification scam or their products won't be sold in Australia even though the market is in fact non muslim.
@Nynaeve: LOL @ "(as the Cross is to a muslim like garlic is to a vampire) ". A cross is a cross. I dont think any Muslim is gonna burn in hell for touching it. Things are empowered by our belief in them and we are empowered in turn by believing in them. If I think a cross is significant, it becomes significant but if I think its just a cross, then its just a cross and remains so. I quite like hot cross buns, work pretty good with a cup of tea/coffee
@sn809: Dude, you never heard the story that Issa is gonna come back and break the cross and kill the swine etc? The Pact of Umar forbade churches to display crosses. Recently we have seen crosses torn off churches in Malaysia and other places where the churches were entered and all crosses removed from inside. Ask your imam and he will tell you that the cross is a symbol of a crucifixion that muslims believe never happened and you are supporting a lie against Allah when you eat those buns and yeah you might go to Hell for it - because Allah is capricious.
yes it has changed my shopping habits
I don't think stuff needs to be labeled as halal, it's more of a marketing thing for companies isn't it? Like, it costs almost nothing to get stuff halal certified (providing it is), but then opens up your product to a bigger group of consumers. If a company is hiding their halal certification they're either really worried about losing the bogan market, or they haven't thought about how it affects consumers looking for religiously acceptable products.
they're either really worried about losing the bogan market
Because only bogans care about animal cruelty? o.O
yeap, all the halal money goes to ISIS
Halal certification is all about the insinuation of Islamic Sharia law into western societies.
Islam is about submission - and it seems all to many westerners - are all to ready to submit.
Because only bogans care (to complain) about Halal or Muslims.
I've seen plenty of bogan Muslims :D
Meat processors paying up to $50 000 per processing plant is almost nothing? Who do you think ends up paying for it? The buyer does, who in the majority of cases is non muslim. If they are hiding their halal certification then obviously they are not looking to market to a religious market, so why are they doing it? I find your mentality to be bogan like as you are simply regurgitating idiot opinion without thinking.
That doesn't make any financial sense. The people who run companies aren't stupid - they would only pay for Halal certification if it increased their profits (by expanding their market and selling more product). If it meant they would lose money, why would they bother? More profit would mean the capacity to lower prices, not increase them. Do you seriously think we live in a world where a company would pay $50000 and not expect to get anything back for it?
yes, the companies are complaining about it and many companies are dropping halal certification as the cost outweighs the benefit. They don't LOSE money as the consumer pays for it. However they are finding that their products are more expensive and people may be less likely to buy them.
For a company which is making greater profit because of halal certification, there is not extra costs for the consumer. By definition, revenue has increased more than enough to compensate for the added cost, so there is no need to pass it on to the consumer.
If companies are losing money because of halal certification, they'll stop it. Then there'll be no extra costs for the consumer. The only situation where the consumer is burdened with extra costs is where a company is acting against its own interest, which is rare.
They would be paying for the Halal certification, to allow them to market/sell it overseas in countries which require it.
They would keep the certification hidden locally, to appease the bogans.
@dazweeja: Nonsense, all costs are passed on to the consumer in one way or another. Many companies don't have massive muslim markets and they ARE stopping it. Muslims are a minority in Australia, it is not worth the extra expense for halal certification for the domestic market. Why is meat for the domestic market halal given that the market for such is under 1 million people? Can you answer me that?
I get the argument. I suppose some people may not want their food butchered with a bit more suffering. Anyone that actually cares can find the label behind the packaging. Honestly people should not be buying food without looking at the nutritional information which is usually at the back anyway. If they don't care about that, they probably don't care whether it is halal or not (unless they are a lazy racist or something; and to those people you have to commit if you want to discriminate! no one is going to spoon-feed opportunities to discriminate to you.)
Amen to that (sic)
Method of labelling is less important compared to having complete and honest information, or disclosure of the supply chain.
The onus should be on the consumer or believer of respective religions to make the correct choices. It's a personal choice, and what's important is that FULL information is made available for consumers to come to that decision.
The better question is, "Will you buy Halal-certified products?" (Does it really support "extremists"?)
Does it really matter? Those people who'd want their things halal would look out for those signs, those people who feel strong about halal would also look out for those signs. If you don't care, you'd not look out for those signs.
Stunning is more humane than halal. So since it's not my beliefs, I'll go the more humane. It probably was the more humane before stunning. I havnt read the holy book, but maybe it was the specified way back in the day as it was the most humane way, but if today it would specify stunning. The rest of the ritual, including the sanctity of life, can still be observed. Like tattoos and Christians, as I understand it, it was more because tatoos had pagan gods rather than tattoos themselves.
Actually what turns me off is the 'gluten-free' tagline that some companies now use to sell food that is, in it's original state, supposed to be gluten free. And doing so actually misleads some consumers into thinking that gluten free food is actually some kind of health food. I spoke to a few customrs today. This young, hip trendy family is entirely convinced that going paleo also means cutting out gluten. To put it in Mr T's words — I pity the fools.
I don't mind halal certified stuff. Is it cheap? Is it edible? Does it taste alright? I'll buy it.
Don't really care TBH, halal or not I'll still eat it.
So is the Halal way of slaughtering animals any better or worse than the standard way? I mean, the actual method in real life practice, not just the "theory" or the "guidelines". The biggest issue seems to be the lack of stunning the animal. And I hope that during the process where the blood is bled out, the animal is already dead.
If Halal animal slaughter is objectively worse than the standard ways (in terms of animal suffering) then F it, it needs to be banned. It's currently banned in the following countries: Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.
The animal is brain dead within minutes, as the Carotids are cut which results in no O2 to brain. Keep in mind the brain has no pain sensation of its own and once the animal is brain dead, does not feel pain. The only pain felt is the throat cutting, which is why the knife needs to be very sharp and the slaughtering action very fast. Neural reflexes are present which is due to intact spinal cord, these detect lack of O2 to brain causing increased heart beat and the jerky movement seen as body reflexes try and restore blood flow to brain. This results in blood being drained out as much as possible. The lack of Lactic Acid build up leads yo healthier meet for Human consumption.
The above is an attempt to explain the thing via medical knowledge.
PS I am a Muslim so there may be an inherent bias towards this way of sacrifice. So take from it what you will.
So is the Halal way of slaughtering animals any better or worse than the standard way?
worse
not only from a cruelty perspective but a quality aspect its also worse.
http://www.grass-fed-solutions.com/cattle-stress.html
Cattle stress can completely undo all the hard work of finishing cattle for slaughter.
While the microscopic fat cells in meat are responsible for tenderness and flavor (Rules 1, 2, and 3) of the Seven Rules of Producing Great Beef, meat can also become tough and flavorless through the effects of stress. Stress causes muscle fibers to tense up and triggers a cascade of changes in the body chemistry of the beef animal.
Cattle stress raises adrenaline in the body. Adrenaline production is the natural response to stress that prepares the body for a fight-or-flight response to a perceived threat. Cattle are no different from us in this regard. However, it is worth looking at what this stress response actually does to the beef animal and how it affects the meat…
just because mentally disturbed people believe there are people living in the clouds its no reason to impose harm on another species for no benefit to our own species
"The animal is brain dead within minutes"
"The only pain felt is the throat cutting"
VS Stunning, within seconds.
VS Stunning, instantly
fixed that for you
with bolt stunning the animal is moved into a "race", someone pops up and puts the gun to its head and its instantly dead.
versus cutting its throat where the animal gets confronted and man handled by someone it dosnt know into position to "face some arbitrary direction" which scares the shit out it, then it goes through the terror of having its throat cut and slowly dying…. only to end up with a worse product in the end…
@nosdan: Actually the blood which contains the lactic acid etc flows out of the body leading to a healthier product. The stress hormones released during halal process empty out the stores of the chemicals from cells into the blood stream which then exit the body due to the Carotids being cut. In case of stunning, this process does not happen and the chemicals and the blood is left inside the meat leading to a poorer end product.
Again keep in mind the Muslim bias.
@sn809: Lactic acid builds up in the tissue during anaerobic respiration and does not "flow out of the body leading to a healthier product".
I have no particular preference and would probably disregard it's Halal certification. I haven't found it to be a factor in quality for good or bad in my experience really.
Want pure halal start farming animal mate . Nothing 100% can sure u got halal meat even u read label. either way they will cut throat 1 will be already dead.
I've been visiting Ozbargain for over 3 years now. This thread is what has finally has made me join up, and only so I can tell you this is the most mentally deficient, pinnacle of dumb a*s crud I've ever seen surface this site.
The halal process or the topic itself? You're happy paying extra for halal certified even if its not your beliefs?
There's no extra cost. No company would pay for halal certification unless it would make them more money than if they didn't have it.
I personally don't mind either way. Since I don't care, then I won't specifically search for the label, so I won't know.
From my understanding though, the halal method of slaughtering was actually the most humane way to kill the animal - back in the day! All based on good principles, ie treat the animal with respect, don't let it see other animals being killed, then say a little prayer and cut its throat quickly with a sharp knife so it bleeds out within seconds.
These days though, now that we have stunning available - I think surely the 'rules' of halal need to be revised to INCLUDE stunning, since the whole premise is about reducing pain for the animal! Yes it didn't exist before, but now that it does, I believe stunning is surely more humane and it would only support their cause. Rather than being stuck in the past.
Aside from that, I do also hate random stuff being labelled as halal or gluten-free or sugar-free, eg water? fruit cups? Gah.
" fruit cups"
They may often contain gelatine, from pigs.
I understand that the differences between Halal and Kosher are the direction, the prayer, the need to face a certain direction, and Halal allows for and mandates stunning, whereas I am unsure that Kosher does.
The anti-halal furore started when a certain branch of politics needed a dog-whistle. had the same started against Kosher products, the [justified] howls would have risen to the moon.
Unlike many commenting, I have worked in slaughter houses. The bolt method is not necessarily cleaner that the older methods of slaughter. There can be no comparison with pig slaughter [ and if you have to ask, you shouldn't be commenting :-p ] but they, too, were completely bled out on slaughter.
I have every sympathy for the animal rights argument, and object strongly to the live shipment arrangements where Oz jobs are exported and conditions governed by a "fox watching the hen house" arrangement, but the majority of stop the evilterrsit' cruel slaughter' protests I see are by those who would be bemused by their difficulty in finding a beef, bacon and cheese pie anywhere between Singapore and Athens.
Halal doesn't 'allow for and mandates stunning' it is the government that mandates stunning, there is no stunning in traditional halal methods. There are many differences between Kosher and Halal, beyond methods.
The anti halal furor began when people found out about the push to make every food in Australia halal certified even though the vast majority are not muslim. Also certain companies let it be known that they were being told to take up this certification or their products would not be bought. Its a scam
Kosher predates halal which is a pale imitation of Kosher, but both practices are outdated today.
I do not buy Halal products because my religion is to practice kindness to animals.
Does your kindness involve eating them?
CryssieJade must clearly be Buddhist, Jain or Pastafarian!
Im definitely Pastafarian :p
But only if the pasta dough was rolled humanely, none of that 'bashing it over the head with a rolling pin' stuff!!
then no KFC, Nandoes, Oporto, McDonalds Chicken… nearly all chicken in Supermarkets + restaurants (including ducks from Asian stores/restaurants) + 60% of Cattle which are halal but don't mention it +…..
Nope, I don't eat any of that stuff!!
Not only for their animal practices, but I'm allergic to preservatives :)
Don't really care. I buy the product because of the ingredients and final price.
Like a true OZBargainer
I can't see an halal certified label anywhere on my Aylesbury Duck vodka bottle.
Blowed if I can see a gluten-free label, either.
Maybe I should just ignore that, sip a glass or two (too damn good for shots), and wonder why this thread was ever started.
Seems to me this thread has gone a tad off topic which was … whether or not or to ignore the purchase of halal certified products.
Far more important is the hidden agenda behind halal certification. Perhaps reading at the following link would offer very useful clarity to Ozbargainers …
Goto: http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/09/02/halal-certification-fo…
You're absolutely right. Topic was not meant to be about the process of halal at all. More so about why should we be forced into purchasing halal products as more and more products become halal certified.
Who is forcing you to eat Halal? It's a simple yes or no for (profanity)'s sakes; if a company wants to certify to cover a segment of the market, you can freely choose to chomp on someone else's sausage…
As you may or may not be aware the market is pretty well monopolised. How many large meat companies are there? You should be able to choose freely and not have to pay extra for someone else's beliefs. The problem is we are not getting a choice and companies are bending over for minority groups.
While I respect other people choices and religious belief, I personally wouldn't buy a product with a 'halal' stamp on it. The bigger the stamp, the more likely I would see it and not buy it.