Need a Macintosh for software development, but have a tightass budget

scrimshaw on 31/07/2016 - 19:46
Last edited 31/07/2016 - 19:47

Hi guys,

I'm a windows person but due to a set of circumstances I need Xcode for Swift development. Thanks to Apple's tradition of keeping everything tightly locked in their walled garden, Xcode only runs on a Mac and there is no proper Windows alternative development environment that does the job just as well.

In short, I need a iMac / Mac Mini / Hackintosh / Macbook. Problem number 1: I'm a tightass and would like it as cheap as possible, without the hardware being too old to run xCode Beta 8. I'm targeting at least a Core i3, 4GB DDR3 memory and SSD. It would also need to be a mobile laptop, as that means I can bring it with me to classes and ask for coding help.

I thought about building a Hackintosh, however many guides online noted that in order to build a Hackintosh you need a mac to create the installation media. However, I don't have a laptop that's compatible. And I need a laptop anyhow…

Any suggestions?

Computing

Comments

  • fruit on 31/07/2016 - 19:53
    +4

    Hackintosh you need a mac to create the installation media

    People usually find a torrent.

    Have a look around Google for virtual machines with OS X in them.

    VMware Player is free
    So is VirtualBox.

    • scrimshaw on 31/07/2016 - 19:54
      +1

      I'd want to avoid using a VM if possible, for performance reasons. But interesting info on the torrents. Any…uh… keywords, I should search for?

      edit: NVM, found this site

      • elusive on 31/07/2016 - 21:00

        What's your current host system? Performance loss in VMs is negligible for all but gaming these days. The biggest issues are usually RAM (should be 1-2 GB for host + what you need for VM + any apps you run in host) and disk (HDDs can thrash when you run two OSes off one at the same time).

        That said, I'm not really familiar with how OS X performs in a VM, and that's probably not supported at all :\

        • atj on 31/07/2016 - 21:04

          Last I looked there was no graphics acceleration which made OS X a very sluggish guest.

        • scrimshaw on 31/07/2016 - 21:33

          Core i5 3470 @ 3.3ghz
          12GB DDR3
          Z77 motherboard
          GTX 1060

          But of course, this is a desktop. I need a laptop. I can't lug my desktop into classes :(

          And what is the financial outlay for a OSX license? I know for Windoze, you have to use a product key, but Win licenses are very cheap $25 via Reddit, but I'm not sure if you can even purchase an El Capitan license, for e.g

        • mskeggs on 31/07/2016 - 22:40

          @scrimshaw:

          I'm not sure if you can even purchase…

          Is this a prime concern for your purposes? I assume you would ensure license compliance in a production environment, but for an educational course things are usually less strict, and this times a thousand for student supplied devices.

        • Diji1 on 31/07/2016 - 23:15
          +1

          Performance loss in VMs is negligible for all but gaming these days.

          Simply untrue but the performance loss for compilation, coding and most probably testing the application likely wouldn't be an issue (if that's what's desired).

          However it's a terrible solution for developing on OSX because it's not Apple hardware IMO.

        • elusive on 01/08/2016 - 01:16

          @scrimshaw:

          And what is the financial outlay for a OSX license?

          Unfortunately, Apple does not sell their licences independently of the hardware - in the same vein, a Hackintosh is against ToS.

        • elusive on 01/08/2016 - 01:25

          @Diji1:

          Performance has always been a tricky question, and I was definitely simplifying there. If I wanted to be more accurate, I'd say that full load on a CPU is rare (even for a dev, unless you're constantly building massive projects) - and as atj mentioned GPU/graphics virtualisation is still underdeveloped. Most problems usually come from disk I/O.

          You do have a point in testing on real Apple hardware, though how much that matters depends on the course (also, if the end goal is an iOS app, perhaps @scrimshaw has that hardware). They'll have to decide whether it's worth the extra $.

        • Abaddon on 01/08/2016 - 09:58

          @scrimshaw: Just consider whether you really need a laptop.

          I've had multiple laptops for work for years now, most of them being big heavy beasts for running multiple vm's. They were so heavy I'd often leave them at work or home and then remote connect to them.

          Could be an option if you have a good internet connection at home. Means you can also have a cheap laptop you use while away (or remote in from a uni laptop etc).

        • scrimshaw on 01/08/2016 - 20:51

          @Abaddon:

          A laptop is more flexible in my current set of circumstances. While Remote desktop is a possibility because I have NBN at home, the bandwith required to "phone home" is fairly heavy and the Tafe campus I attend has fairly spotty wifi connections.

          The only laptop I have currently is a 11 inch Pendo convertible with Bay Trail. It has a really shitty keyboard.

        • fruit on 02/08/2016 - 10:49

          @atj: Which host?

        • fruit on 02/08/2016 - 15:03

          @Diji1: You realise x64 on x64 is done in hardware?

        • filmoscope on 02/08/2016 - 15:54

          @atj:
          use Ubuntu or other linux as host system.
          VirtualBox supports 3d for VM and VM performance is reasonably good under linux host

        • atj on 02/08/2016 - 16:08

          @filmoscope: VirtualBox doesn't seem to offer guest additions or graphics drivers for OS X guests.

        • filmoscope on 02/08/2016 - 16:47

          @atj:
          Indeed, there are a lot of limitations I was not aware of.

          It seems to be much easier with vmplayer , though
          http://www.sysprobs.com/easily-run-mac-os-x-10-8-mountain-li…

        • atj on 02/08/2016 - 17:17

          @filmoscope: VMware doesn't offer graphics acceleration either as far as I know.

          @fruit: I've used VirtualBox and VMware Fusion as hosts for 10.6~10.9 guests. I've not revisited virtualising OS X for a while but as far as I'm aware there's no graphics acceleration available and while that's true I don't think OS X is usable interactively for anything non-trivial.

      • netsurfer on 01/08/2016 - 17:28
        +1

        You only need a VM to create the boot USB stick. Once that's done, you don't actually need that VM.
        Alternatively, have a friend with Mac to help you create that USB stick.

        Creating that USB stick is actually the easy part. Getting every device working under Mac OS, can be a bit tricky sometimes. Also, the power management part can also be quite tricky. You also need to decide how you intend to dual boot (or you are going to dedicate a PC to just use Mac) - whether you use split partitions or you have multiple SSDs/Hard drives and one is for Hackintosh. Make sure you create a boot USB disk for booting into Mac.

        I suggest you get a new SSD or hard drive to try it out first. Leave your main SSD/hard drive as is for now until you are quite comfortable with it.

        OSX is free for a Mac owner:
        https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/os-x-el-capitan/id1018109117…

  • holoz0r on 31/07/2016 - 20:02
    +1

    Check the hackintosh subreddit, too.

  • verio on 31/07/2016 - 20:19

    Well, either it is going to be a hackintosh or a used macbook.

    Because the cheapest option from Apple is $1179:
    http://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/FJVE2X/A/refurbished-13…

    • holdenmg on 31/07/2016 - 20:34

      The lowest end refurb I can see is a
      Apple MacBook Pro 13 inch - i5 2.4GHz CPU, 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD, DVD-RW/CD-RW, El Capitan OS
      @ $849+P&H

      http://www.megabuy.com.au/apple-macbook-pro-13-inch-i5-24ghz…

      • affable on 01/08/2016 - 10:52
        +1

        Thanks holdenmg, I have a similar situation to the OP and this fits the bill perfectly. Hopefully I'll only lose $250 or so when I no longer need it in a couple of months… what do you think is the best way to sell, as ebay+paypal fees are going to take $100+ of the sale?

        • holdenmg on 01/08/2016 - 11:05

          Hi,

          Given the brand new Macs are just around the corner (at a price $$$) all used "current" model Macs will take a bit of a hit when these are released.

          That said, if you can find a well discounted refurb (with some warranty) with good Specs (prefer SSD and adequate RAM and Current OS, I think you would be on safe ground. Check the Battery Count isn't too high and that the Charger is in good order.

          As far as selling goes, although eBay fees are high, their marketplace and reach is good too. I'd be looking to sell via eBay to a local buyer.

        • affable on 01/08/2016 - 11:25

          @holdenmg: Thanks, I assume the battery count comment wasn't about the Megabuy as I won't see that until I receive it?
          I've asked Megabuy about warranty, refurb is not by Apple but some other company.

    • [Deactivated] on 04/08/2016 - 01:23

      I would like to confirm that refurbished MB can do TRS right?

  • ozhunter on 31/07/2016 - 20:41

    Great site for hackintosh http://www.tonymacx86.com/

  • atj on 31/07/2016 - 20:42

    4GB is not going to be fun for development. A second-hand 13-inch MBP MD101 or if you're prepared to Hackintosh (I wouldn't, there's enough jank already), a Lenovo X220 with an external monitor, 16GB and an SSD would be the minimum I'd go for. Swift's available on Linux too if you just need glibc and CoreFoundation.

    • sourdawg on 31/07/2016 - 23:53

      I was running El Capitan on my x220 tablet and it was much faster and smoother than Windows and had better battery life to boot. You'll want to change your wifi card and flash a hacked bios though

  • mskeggs on 31/07/2016 - 21:04
    +1

    Can you use one of the online dev environments? They charge monthly or by the hour, and would likely give the cheapest for a semester long course.
    Otherwise, is it possible to buy a secondhand machine and sell it again at the end?

    Oh. I notice you said you don't have a laptop at all. I think you are going to cause yourself trouble if you are trying to run a beta dev environment on an unsupported OS that you aren't familiar with.
    Buy a MacBook and sell it again when you are done, if you are canny it will cost you next to nothing.

    • scrimshaw on 31/07/2016 - 21:35
      +1

      Would you recommend RebootIT? They are a 3rd party refurbisher and only provide 3 months of warranty.

      http://www.reboot-it.com.au/apple-c-69/apple-macbook-c-69-84…

      3 months is really stingy IMO but they are offering a Sandy Bride model for $639. Sigh. Apple premiums.

      On the other hand, someone on OCAU is selling:

      Apple Macbook Air 13" Early 2014

      Works perfectly, used as a spare laptop
      In good condition, scuff marks on the top lid
      Comes with box, charger, power cable, power plug, and documentations
      Selling due to no longer needed

      Core i5 1.4GHz CPU - 4GB RAM - 128GB SSD

      http://imgur.com/a/LQCVZ
      Res/Ins: $700

      • mskeggs on 31/07/2016 - 22:35

        I'm not a fan of buying secondhand from dealers unless it is a great price, which is only once in a while. I agree all the systems they list in your link are a lot of money for what you get.
        I just looked at your username and realised who it was, sorry for the generic answer before.
        Let me reassess my previous comment.
        I think you would be fine running hackintosh if that worked for you, on the grounds that you have plenty of familiarity with Android and command line.
        I would be inclined to consider very strongly a VM solution.
        I know you dismissed it for performance, but consider, you are likely to have a desktop at home with enough grunt to deliver more power to a VM than you would get out of a secondhand system. Couple it with a windows laptop you can take to class that you can run a VM for the xCode in class. Its not like you will be doing repeated builds in class, just reviewing code, right? And in the type of class where you are reasonably a beginner, you aren't compiling scads of code, so even a low power laptop with a VM will likely handle it.

        I would suggest you could ahem look to certain sections of the Internet to find the software required to build a VM image (or, you know, "find" one) that would work with VMware or similar.

  • pais on 31/07/2016 - 21:33

    Hackintosh is actually surprisingly easy to setup, but updating it can be pretty time consuming. Mac Mini is definitely the cheapest way to go; I bought a Mini and then upgraded after 6 months or so to a MBP when I realised I wanted to continue development.

  • [Deactivated] on 31/07/2016 - 21:43
    +1

    I set up an i5 Skylake NUC with OSX 10.10. In fact, I'm typing on it right now. Works brilliantly. I do loads of dev work on it in various languages, and it performs more than adequately.

    • aim54x on 01/08/2016 - 07:37

      This I am interested in hearing more about. Last time I looked there was little/no success with the Broadwell NUC's but that was a few mnonths ago.

  • resisting the urge on 31/07/2016 - 22:21
    +3

    Get a used Mac Mini, they are super-reliable, can be easily upgraded with cheap fast SSDs and extra memory. Or just buy a used MBP, cheap ones come up all the time on gumtree. Make sure it has HDMI output and thunderbolt, or just stump up for a >2012 model to ensure you get USB3 too.

    • daewoo on 03/08/2016 - 11:59

      This. My late-2012 model which I bought new for roughly $750 has been upgraded to 16GB RAM and has both a SSD and the original 1TB 2.5" drive. Plug it into a HDTV!

    • Momoni on 03/08/2016 - 13:31

      A Mac Mini is great. Use it as a server or media player after a couple of years as a desktop.

  • micemeat on 31/07/2016 - 22:41

    hackinttosh

  • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2016 - 01:19
    -7

    Stop being tight and just buy a new Macbook Air. It will last you forever and you will not regret the extra initial outlay. They are great little computers. You are eligible for the educational discount, but the usual JB 10% is usually a better deal.

    • Abaddon on 01/08/2016 - 10:05

      I totally disagree. Buy what you want, don't let one companies bad practices and backwards ways dictate to you what you purchase.

      Once you've finished your studies you may be lucky enough never to have to develop for Mac again. I'm happy to say I've avoided it pretty well over the years, and even though we have Macs at work for builds etc they largely go unused.

      More organisations are looking to do as much cross platform development as possible which often means web development is where it is at in the front end. And for that you can pretty easily get away with not having any Apple products, especially if you throw in something like Browserstack when needed.

    • deanylev on 01/08/2016 - 23:15

      MacBook Airs are pretty terrible value, even for Apple. The only great thing about them is their battery life.

  • altomic on 01/08/2016 - 07:19

    Hackintosh. Definitely.

    What I love about them is that you can swap the HDD from one machine to another with out the poo-ness of win-doh's.

    I'm in the middle of retrofitting a G3 case to take a more modern dual core Intel MB,

  • tap on 01/08/2016 - 08:50
    -2

    Stop being a tight arse and buy a Macbook on interest free. Think about it as an investment. You're making money from it? Claim it on tax.

    Or buy a second hand 2012 Macbook on Ebay for $500 and put an SSD in it. Then from there build a Hackintosh if the power isn't sufficient.

    • Abaddon on 01/08/2016 - 10:06

      I'm not sure there is money being made here. As mentioned this is for a course of study.

      If anything the training provider should be providing everything necessary. Nobody should be forced into a purchase.

      • scrimshaw on 01/08/2016 - 10:57

        It's Tafe so no. They aren't that generous

      • tap on 01/08/2016 - 16:37

        He could make money from it.. It's a small investment if you think about the potential returns from the app store.

        I know it's hard if you're at Uni or TAFE though.. so I'd probably Hackintosh. Surely you know someone with a Mac for setup?

  • CandyMan on 01/08/2016 - 09:13

    Try graysonline. They might have some second hand or refurbished MacBook's on sale.
    If you live in Sydney (rather than right behind me lol) you could pickup from their warehouse to avoid delivery charges.

  • zedman on 01/08/2016 - 09:15
    +4

    I had almost this exact problem. What I did was buy an old Mac Mini off of eBay for $250 and upgraded it to 8gb ram. I also had an SSD already which I used to upgrade the HDD. It was only a Core 2 Duo but I was only using it as a build server so to speak for some third party development software. Worked well.

  • cDNA on 01/08/2016 - 10:12

    You're a lucky individual. I only realised I needed a macbook for one small part of my work after I spent $2000 on a Windows laptop.

    Hackintosh is the way to go. :)

  • thierry on 01/08/2016 - 10:31
    +1

    you can get online mac VMs.. for a monthly fee..

    I tried going down the Hackintosh route for developement - definitely not recommended. Eventually you'll have to upgrade Xcode, which will need an upgrade of OSx and yr stuffed after that.

  • c0balt on 01/08/2016 - 13:58

    2nd hand 27" iMacs are relatively cheap on eBay and a pleasure to use for coding/designing.

    Core i5, 8+GB DDR3, AMD 5750/5770 GPU, 1TB WB black, 27" IPS 2560x1440, great design for around ~$600 I've seen them go for.

    I use one for that and as a monitor for my gaming PC. Even though I also have Bootcamp on the iMac, it's great to know that I can use it as a monitor for any device well after it gets superseded - if I needed more powerful computing for OSX, I could get another Mac Mini in how ever many years time and use my iMac as a display for it.

    I won't upgrade until 34" ultrawide IPS/OLED 144hz has a palatable price.

    • Daabido on 01/08/2016 - 20:08

      Since when can you use an iMac as an monitor for an external device? Never as far as I know.

      • c0balt on 01/08/2016 - 20:12
        +1

        The 2009-2011 iMacs with displayport (not thunderbolt) can be used as a monitor in what Apple call 'target display mode' for almost all GPUs with displayport or mDP out. The newer thunderbolt iMacs still be be used as a monitor, but only with thunderbolt Mac devices AFAIK. It effectively becomes one of their 27" Cinema Displays without the use of the webcam or USB ports on the iMac, but the speakers work well over the mDP cable that carries video with it. I've kept mine in use everyday, mostly as a display for my gaming PC but also to use OSX if I'm just surfing the web.

        However after reading that the OP needs it as a 'mobile laptop', I would recommend not getting a 27" slab of circuity and glass clad in a thick aluminium shell.

  • Gmetal on 01/08/2016 - 18:53

    You can get a Mac OSX image for VMware on the internet (you know where to look), and install it on VMWare workstation, which is free. Works really well, ive succesfully run Xcode and an iOS emulator on it with excellent performance.

    • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2016 - 21:30

      beware xcode won't run on anything older than 10.10

    • Aneurism on 02/08/2016 - 12:22

      Free, but technically illegal. Is vmware workstation free ? Not sure about that.

      • Gmetal on 02/08/2016 - 16:13

        There is Vmware Workstation Player, which is 100% free

        • Aneurism on 02/08/2016 - 16:50

          Ah yeah thats right. Even so, OSX in a vm on non apple hardware is still against the EULA and can be acted on legally by Apple. (whether or not they would actually do so is a different matter).

  • antler on 01/08/2016 - 22:45

    You know that you can learn Swift on Linux, right? Apple release Swift as open-source and provide binaries for Ubuntu: https://swift.org/download/#releases

    • scrimshaw on 01/08/2016 - 22:51

      I need Xcode. I can write Swift on Windows too, but part of the learning experience requires that I use xcode playgrounds.

      • Momoni on 03/08/2016 - 19:55

        You can consider Xamarin Studio for cross platform development. That way you can cover iOS and Android if you want to. Uses C# and IDE is free on both Windows and Mac.

  • tyb1987 on 02/08/2016 - 01:32

    I have below MBP for sales. How much would you offer me?

    MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2012)
    2.3 GHz Intel Core i7
    16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 1536 MB
    OS X EL CAPITAN
    2x SanDisk 256GB SSD

  • Aneurism on 02/08/2016 - 12:32

    OP could buy a mac, and boot camp to windows.. I'm assuming he prefers to use Windows and only switch to mac on a per need basis.. Which is what I do. Although there are still plenty of annoyances going down this path, it kills two birds with one stone.. (and works legally too)..

  • MrMcHairyHead on 02/08/2016 - 13:29

    Thanks to Apple's tradition of keeping everything tightly locked in their walled garden, Xcode only runs on a Mac

    Why would you expect it to be on anything else? You know Visual Studio only runs on Windows, right?

    • Aneurism on 02/08/2016 - 16:38

      Why would you expect it to be on anything else? You know Visual Studio only runs on Windows, right?

      Well you could still legally run VS within a Windows VM (or bootcamp) whilst on a Mac..

      However, doing the same the other way around ..eg a Mac VM on non Mac hardware (Windows or otherwise based) is against the Apple EULA..I think the reference to the walled garden is the explicit prohibition of running xcode in a non Apple hardware based environment.

  • 50cent on 02/08/2016 - 17:00

    Can I install the Macintosh software on an old PC computer like eight years old?

    • [Deactivated] on 03/08/2016 - 02:02

      Depending on the cpu and motherboard, most Intel cpus and many gigabytes motherboards are supported by MacOS so you can do hackintosh.

    • scrimshaw on 03/08/2016 - 02:05

      from what I've read, it's a lot of work getting hackintosh to work on motherboards older than 2010 era. and the same goes for processors. Best to have one that is 2010 or newer

      You can try though, but there is a lot of reading to do.

      • altomic on 03/08/2016 - 21:46

        i've got an ancient intel MB running OS 10.5.6. - uses a IDE HDD - Acer Veriton 2800 circa 2004 or 5.

        it's not too difficult to set up. it's about knowing what components your system has - e.g. GPU etc.

        certainly it can be trial and error, but in my experience it mostly works.

        my hackintosh can't utilise the onboard sound card but with one of those $1 USB sound cards works flawlessly.

        what I did find was that you could take the hackintosh HDD out of one PC and swap it in to another - see this thread

        I even put the hackintosh HDD into a server 18 months ago (couldn't tell you for the life of me what type except it was a flat/wide/deep box with 16gb ram). it worked fine.

  • sillyguy on 02/08/2016 - 21:42

    If you are really serious about coding, get a Retina MBP, it helps :)

  • smpantsonfire on 02/08/2016 - 22:11

    2011 i5 mbp, probably under $600 now. Chuck an ssd in and it's still a very well performing machine.more than enough to code ios apps

  • PVA on 03/08/2016 - 21:54

    for how long, is a rental a better an option?

    • scrimshaw on 04/08/2016 - 14:45

      I want to keep that macbook quite a few years actually, since I need a laptop for long term usage.

  • littleDealFish on 09/08/2016 - 16:26

    If you're interested in a hackintosh - http://www.tonymacx86.com/ active forums for troubleshooting and hardware guides. I've built a few hackintoshes, my latest one works great! (i7 4770, gigabyte z87x-ud3h, gtx 980)

  • GadgetGirl on 17/09/2016 - 09:45

    I have an old iMac G4

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G4

    Are you in Melbourne…. Or is that model too old?

    • atj on 17/09/2016 - 11:11

      It's too old for the current Mac stack. The G4/G5 CPUs are interesting to programmers after a cheap big endian architecture to play with (which is a niche use) but otherwise models like this are mainly of interest to retro computing enthusiasts.

    • scrimshaw on 17/09/2016 - 19:04

      I spent about 350 and i bought a second hand HP Elitebook Folio 940m (1040).

      i7 4200U, 8GB DDR3, 1600 * 900 tn and 180GB M.2 SSD.

      It's pretty good, but at the moment waiting for Sierra to come out and then I will play with it later on.

  • geoffellis on 17/09/2016 - 13:35

    Do you need Xcode? Or do you need Swift?

    Because Swift is cross platform now and runs on Linux. I think they even have an official Ubuntu port iirc.

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