Hi, just wondering what Oz Bargains thoughts are on this.
[edit] Seems this post has pissed a lot of people off.
I was asking for peoples thoughts on weather taking your exact amount of paid sick leave every year is milking the system, weather you are sick or not.
I was not asking for "help" on what I should do, what the employees situation is, or the reasons my job requires me to look into this.
Whatever oz-bargain, have fun.
for those who are sick of bosses its ok for sick leave….
agreed!
I'm a little shocked at how many people are saying it's your entitlement to take 10 days sick leave. You are only entitled to take those days if you are sick!
Having said that, to the OP even if the employee is milking the system there is nothing you can really do about it. Ask for med certs and if he supplies them you can't do anything more. Accusing them without being able to prove they weren't sick would not make things better.
I have a few colleagues I wish would take their full entitlement…I'd even donate a few of my unused days to spend less time with them! :P
Its not an entitlement unlike annual leave. sick leave should only be taken when you are sick. It maybe used in the form of carers leave if they have someone who they look after. This may cause the days to tally up quickly.
Anyway, it is hard to start to dispute medical certificate. Unless you are a doctor and they have fully disclosed their medical history to you.
See, you're streamlining the OP's HR dept already…just take down a few photos & you're all over this shit! ;)
I was going to quote the word "entitlement" to highlight the gag, but I honestly thought that most people would be sharp enough to get it…then along comes you.
I suppose it's not like an "entitlement" to white-ant your bosses job whilst you're temporarily seconded into her position though, that's fully legit, right???
For the record, semantically speaking it absolutely is an entitlement, from the dictionary:
noun: entitlement; the fact of having a right to something.
synonyms: allowance, allocation, allotment, quota, ration, grant, limit
Stick to your day job, for the next 5 weeks anyway…
Probably another reason why companies are moving overseas.
EDIT: OP changed the context - at the end of the day you're entitled to take your entire entitlement every year as long as you provide evidence and notice, as required.
Your employer is allowed to meet with you if your absences form a pattern or indicate you may be unsafe, or unfit for work on an ongoing basis.
They are taking the sick leave that their employment entitles them too. They are not going over that so there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. It is people like you that creates problems for people where there are none. Would you be saying the same if someone took all their annual leave every year as well? Of course not.
Did you ever consider they maxed their sick days, and came to work before they had fully recovered because they could not afford to lose pay? There is also the possibility they use it for recovery from minor operations/procedures that are none of your business. They may also feel some sort of entitlement to those days. Sick or not, do you really want to go to that big brother type place this looks, sounds and smells like?
If you want your employees not to take all their sick leave, offer them an incentive not too - like x% of personal leave hours are payed out when they leave the job.
At the end of the day a lot of people "pull a sickie" to use up what they see as an entitlement.
By legal definition - no one is entitled to just 'use it' if not legitimately sick. Those that do like you said look very suspicious. It all comes down to work ethic. As a graduate my manager who I respected as a soft spoken but highly skilled in accounting/finance mentioned how obvious it was on those who always milk their sick days.
At the end of the day your work ethic and habits will shine through your long term drive and job. People will subconsciously judge you versus the hard working, only takes legitimate sickies worker. You can be that 9-5'er content, or you can work to a work ethic which is likely to be upheld more. It's your choice. I know as a management next time which worker I would place more faith in, and would gravitate towards if I had to make an employment or skills related decision.
Exactly, those who take the p*ss are shooting themselves in the foot. You don't think others in the office talk? It's not just MGMT judging you.
Ever wonder if they don't feel like coming into work because of the toxic team mates constantly judging/talking about them for using their entitlements?
Sick leave is the cheapest form of income protection insurance that I know, why would you waste it on trivial illnesses or minor conditions?
@OP - Have you promoted or appreciated the hard work of other employees who didn't use their full sick leave allowance?
The fact that the employee is with the company for six long years must mean something to you/your company.
…with the company for six long years must mean something to you/your company.
Nowadays, the "bean counters" are in charge and loyalty to a company means nothing.
All you are is a number on a list alongside your total cost to the company.
That "Thank you for your 5/10/15/20 years of service" certificate also means nothing.
True, which is why I don't work long enough in a company to be disappointed…
so? that is their right mate!
whether and weather are two completely different things… just saying.
"Employee Has Used Their Exact Sick Leave Allowance for The Last 6 Years. Your Thoughts?"
Promote him/her!
they are probably milking it but the law doesnt allow you to anything.
IMO one you have 4 weeks of sick leave you should be allowed to convert it to annual leave or at least get paid a part amount if you chose too it would stop the needless sickies in australia
Sick leave is now called Carers/Personal Leave. If you take Carers Leave to care for a family member who has an extended illness - is this the employer allowed to ask for the family members medical certificate detailing such illness?
In relation to OP - no, you have no recourse. The employee is entitled to the entitlements /the end.
To answer your question, yeah, the specialist / GP usually has to give a copy of the patient's medical certificate to the carer in order for the carer to claim Carers Leave - happened to my partner when I had a day surgery procedure recently
If you are sick then yes use it, the problem is that alot of people just take the p*ss and game the system. To me the biggest issue with this is the impact on the team, as opposed to the company (i'm thinking big company not small).
I work in a team and we have someone who takes alot of sick leave, mostly Fridays and Mondays.
Why is the OP a disabled user? It's almost like he's taken a sickie from this thread
As you can see by the edits/revisions, they had a Cartman-esque dummy spit and quit.
My sister rarely takes leave without pay although all her paid sick leave has been legitimate. Just recently she had to take some time off due to a nasty bug and went back to work earlier than she should have, despite still recovering. I'm hoping you're not her manager.
Doesn't have to be gaming or milking the system to use all his sick days for the year.
He could even have been sick more days than he is allowed but once it runs out he just sucks it up and STILL comes to work even though he shouldn't!
Too little info to judge anything, and as long as he meets requirements (certs, etc) , you have absolutely no business questioning any of it.
how is this worth discussing? what about the stupid shit regarding companies and rich people not paying their taxes? housing affordability? negative gearing to let people speculate on property? government wasting money on funding a fradulent NBN program to resell the same technology opportunities to it's citizens by force?
sick days aren't just for when a person is sick, it can and should be used as mental health days when a person is on the verge of burnout or anxiety attacks from working. people tend to forget that as workers, we get taxed twice, first after we get our pay cheque and again when we pay for goods and services. people who seriously believe that sick days are righteously days for 'genuine' sick days are spineless sheep. jesus christ, the serfdom is real.
Just ask for a doctor's note each time easy
In reality, the person may even be sick for more days than your sick leave quota allows for, yet they only claim the sick day quota limit because they can't afford (literally) to miss unpaid days.
The scenario I describe sounds plausible for anyone who has a chronic health condition or mental health concerns.
I am a contractor and take sick leave. Thankfully nobody gives a crap because I don't get paid for it. I take a LOT of sick leave though. I pick up a bad flu once a year for 2-4 days, food poisoning or other debilitating diarrhoea once or twice a year, and suffer from extremely awful depression where some days I don't get out of bed, and not in a fun way but in a, "I don't want to kill myself" way. Then there's looking after my partner when she's sick. And general fatigue from a night where you just can't sleep (some workplaces care about you being fit for work).
It's probably ten days or more a year. If you never take sick leave then good for you but for the rest of us that's what's allowed and it's fair.
I did work for 5 years or so with no sick leave and had nothing to show for it, when the time came I was shown the door like everyone else. What was I sacrificing so hard for? Nothing. I won't run myself into the ground for anyone anymore.
I feel that if you run a business that this is calculated into your costs and you forget about it otherwise you'll just make your life and someone else's life miserable. They work for you but you don't own them. They have their own things going on. Don't make them explain, "I wanted to die that day so I stayed at home for my own protection." It's private.
Judge them by the work they do all the other times - literally 46 weeks of the year. Not on the 2 weeks they aren't there!!!!
I did work for 5 years or so with no sick leave and had nothing to show for it, when the time came I was shown the door like everyone else. What was I sacrificing so hard for? Nothing. I won't run myself into the ground for anyone anymore.
more or less the same for me, me and another guy started the same job at around the same time, while I only took sick leave when I were not able to get out of bed, this guy made sure he used up every single one day, every year.
5 years down the track, I took 5 days off, and he took 50, when redundancy came around, we both got the same payout, except I had worked an extra 45 days, that's like 9 extra weeks of work………….
I had worked an extra 45 days, that's like 9 extra weeks of work……….
That's my wife's argument too. But just because others are taking advantage of the system, doesn't mean you/I have to also.
while I agree with you, and still would only take sick days when I absolutely had to, some days, I wonder why do I even bother
let me tell you another story, which is at the job after the above mentioned one
I did my job to my best of abilities, always went above and beyond the call of duty, and only take sick days when I was truly sick.
then there was this guy, who in addition to taking every single sickie available during the year, he was also well known throughout the business for bringing in his sleeping bag and slept for 8 hours straight during his 12 hours night shifts, more then often missing critical alerts etc.
when redundancy time came (again), this time 50% of the team had to go, I lost my job and sleepy got to stay, I was like, W.T.F?
Dunno how he got away with it, he wasn't particularly well qualified or hard working, could barely string a sentence together in English, and he is not the "social butterfly" type either, never talk to anyone or attend after work drinks/functions etc, but yet he got away with it time after time.
Ever heard of a 'mental health day' - sometimes sickness doesn't mean going to the doctor anyhow, it means being at home away from everyone and everything because being out in society, for some of us, is actually a difficult and tiring thing.
Sorry but difficult and tiring is not an excuse to use sick leave. Otherwise If I stayed up all night binge watching Battlestar Galactica on Bluray that I Ozbargained I would be entitled to stay at home the next day because it would be tiring and difficult to go to work. If you genuinely have a mental health issue that causes you anxiety when you see people and it is flaring up then you can get a medical certificate for that as you fit the definition of sick on that day. Or if it just one day and your company allows for no med cert then ethically there is nothing wrong with you having that day off as a sick day.
If you don't have a mental health issue and you just don't feel like seeing anyone that day, then it's not acceptable.
It can come back to bite them. I know of a couple of examples of guys that have used all their sickies, then become genuinely sick and had to take leave without pay for several weeks. One of whom broke an elbow and wasn't allowed to come back to work until it had fully healed, about 6 weeks.
Happened to my daughter last year, she tripped about using her sick days for leave, then ended up with meningitis and nearly went broke.
Take your wins where you can because believe me if you're an employee you're losing. The idea that adults need to bring in a doctor's certificate after taking a day off is just sad. It's like a note from a parent saying you can skip gym. If employees shared the wins and losses of the company you wouldn't need to treat them like children. But hey that sounds like communism and we all know what were supposed to think about that.
Best way to stop sickies. Is to offer incentives at the end of year like bonuses etc if minimum sickies are taken. Whether he/she is milking the system or not? They are there and can be legally taken if they provide a doctors certificate in most cases. If it is costing you production then just sit and talk with them and ask what can you do to help?
I worked at a place that used to offer a sick leave bonus. No sickies taken and you got $300, one sickie - $150 or similar. Most of the guys that they wanted to target with that figured it was worth more to them to take the sickies. Two sickies paid for the bonus as if you didn't use the sickies you lost them.
I left that company and effectively lost around 40 days pay in unused sickies after receiving the bonus a couple of times over the years. The company was miles ahead.
Least in my organisation sick leave doesn't just mean you're physically il. You can have a mental health day.
I think it also goes both way, old boss hated anyone taking sick leave so I ended up having so many hours backed up, new boss doesn't really care so long as it's not excessive.
If you have the leave you should be able to use it as leave.
I've taken about 30 sick days last year, although I was genuinely sick.
All of them were paid as my employer understands that the constant colds are fairly common given I travel around so much.
I get shit from some people at work for it, but they lack the understanding. They just think it's a big holiday.
"We have an employee working in an air-conditioned office, desk job, on salary, and it has come to light that they have used the exact number of paid sick leave days every year (10 days) for the last 6 years they have been employed here. Never a day less or a day over."
Is this for real? Do employers really look at this now? As the good ol' Derryn Hinch would say: "shame, shame, shame". I mean really???? I find this very disgraceful. Surely HR managers can spend their time on better things than this. IT IS AN ENTITLEMENT!!! GET OVER IT!!! If you don't want people to take it, either take it away or offer an incentive to people that don't take it. With management like this, there is no wonder Aussie businesses are falling like dominoes.
I worked for 20 years as a permanent employee. Dedicated most of my working life to this company only to be shown the door like I only started there. After this, the only regret I have is that I did not take my sick leave. I left the company with over 6 months of sick leave. You live and learn I guess.
workers attitude like yours is why it is hard to have good employees. if your sick, 100% go for it. but if your not - you are taking the piss. this person is providing a living to this individual.
Sick leave is there to be used. Use it or loose it. I chose to loose it and I will regret it for the rest of my life. That's how the system is designed. Instead of wasting time looking at "who did it and who didn't", use that time for brainstorming and come up with an innovating system that will benefit both parties.
You seem like you might be a young chap, so here's a tip for you. "Good employees" as you call them, are created by "good employers". They both go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.
A post like yours in here it only deserves to be hammered. There are many hard working people on this site. A business will not be a business without its workers.
Sick leave is there to be used if you're sick… Not otherwise.
I somewhat agree with the rest of your post but not completely. You could be a good employer but may still have terrible employees who try to take advantage. Vice versa.
Can relate to the being walked out the door bit..
This will make you feel better. I was genuinely pretty headachy so was gonna take a day off, but my misses arced up as she had an rdo and wanted the day to her self. So I went in. I was back home in 1 hour being made redundant, one day shy of 7.5 years. They tried to do it before paying out lsl.
Wish I had certainly blazed through some sick leave before hand
i never ask for a medical certificate as my employees only take sick leave if they really are sick. however in this case i would ask for one every single time to make them get to the dr and get one.
Getting to the doctor when you should be in bed resting. It really makes no sense
Often it's not even possible to get an appointment to see the doctor on the same day!
Would you then be okay for the employee to take another day off to go to the doctor's office purely to get the med cert?
I was a Payroll Officer for more than 40 years and there are all types of employees. Those that used all their sick leave every year and those that took none. At one nursing home I was asked by an employee "how many sick holidays do I have left". At another we didn't put the sick leave credit balance on their payslips as they always took "sick holdays". Management wanted stats done each month so they could see who took sickies, but it made no difference to how much leave was taken.
So get over it employers, you screw the staff on wages, they screw you on sickies.
So get over it employers, you screw the staff on wages, they screw you on sickies.
That's a different way to look at it! haha Maybe it's like batsmen not walking; you win some you lose some?
But I guess it's a catch 22…
they screw you on sickies
The value of the sickies is included in the surplus of value generated by all the employees and most of it goes towards large management salaries, profit, expensive rents and profitable long term interest expenses on the loans given to the company. Ofcourse from the company perspective, any money that goes towards wages and employee expenses need to be reduced to the most allowable and workable lower limit possible.
You are quite correct. Managers fiddle the staff wages by changing the mix of casuals and part timers so they reach their targets. HR are told to employ more casual and less Full/Part timers so that leave balances are reduced. Then the Executive says that wages have gone up, reduce staff numbers. Then sales drop off because of less staff, employ more staff. And it goes on and on just so that management meet their targets and get bonuses.
What is 'sick'?? Use sick leave so you don't get sick. Use it so you don't burn out. If you are wasting your sick leave, then you are wasting your sick leave
Not taking sickies is bad for the company
Can you explain this further?
It means workers are either coming to work sick, not being allowed sick leave or fear management. Sick leave doesn't mean you're physically injured or sick with a cold.
You can use sick leave to have a mental health day.
Personally i feel if you have excess sick leave you should be able to use it as part of annual leave if you want.
I don't argue this, but mnermner said "sickies" not sick leave. I define a sickie as a day off work (that should be annual leave), and had nothing to do with being physically and/or mentally sick.
I misread what he said, thought he said being sick. Yeah I view the word sickies same way as you but perhaps John Kimble meant it differently.
this
The place I work caps sick leaves at 10 days per calendar year. And you can't accumulate sick leaves, i.e. no carry over unused sick leaves to the next year. Is it legal ?
Don't think so, check previous comments or the relevant authority.
for the record if you get sick whilst on holiday you can claim as sick
I always wondered that… Eg if you scheduled/submitted annual for a day and then ended up being sick on that day.
Here's a controversial question: is being hungover considered "sick"?
I think since it self inflicted sick is not, but hard to argue. But then again ppl with hangovers just call in sick and say they have the trots.
I am sure if you went to India and got a the trots you could get a gp certificate , think it would be cheeky though
Interesting question. I don't know the legal answer but ethically the answer is obviously no. You should take it as an annual leave day if you can't get into work.
At one of my previous workplaces, everyone knew you could get as drunk as you wanted at the work Xmas party, so long as you turned up to work the next day. You could hardly do and work or sleep at your desk if you had to, but you had to show up at least.
I think I was still drunk till at least lunchtime and hardly did any work that day…
When you only get 10 days and lose them if you don't use them then there is a fair bit of incentive to use them whether you are sick or not. I have worked as a professional for over 20 years and never worked for anywhere that allowed sick days to be carried over.
Please read previous comments you cannot legally lose them if you do not use them.
Do what I do come in sick anyway and get blasted a week later for making the whole office sick. Never questioned for a doctors cert again.
When I am sick I am still able to perform my job its more me protecting other workers. I am just one of those people that doesnt get too impacted by most illnesses.
However I guess my issue is is that I get hayfever so sometimes I cant tell if I am contagious or not so take the day off then a few hours later when it passes I am like whoops should have gone in.
I have never taken a sick day in 4 years at my current job, but do you think they've noticed or appreciated it? Not a chance. So I wouldn't blame anyone from taking them all, whether sick or not honestly.
Who is they? How do you know "they" don't notice or appreciate it?
Just because they don't throw you a "never taken sick leave in 4 years party" doesn't mean anything. It would be weird for management to go around acknowledging/praising staff that don't take sick leave…
Having said this, you are probably right. :p
Yeah I know, it's just a feeling ..
That's crazy, I'm pretty sure one would have grounds for wrongful dismissal if one was fired for one instance of a sick day on a Monday…
I know at my previous workplace, it was common knowledge (though I don't think official), that if you took a sick day on a Monday or Friday then you would be expected to provide a doctor's certificate. Not exactly the same, but along the same lines.
Totally understand that feeling.
With you on this my friend. I didnt have a sick day in about 3 years and average maybe 1 a year since I started. Think anyone has even noticed? Im positive they have not. Thankfully I only need to accrue about 1 more sick day then I will have the 600 hours needed to enable 80% of my sick leave to be paid out when I leave.
It's not about being appreciated for it, it's about doing the right thing.
Your immediate manager and 1 above know.
The guy at my work years back who took sickies, was also slack in other areas…. part and parcel I guess.
It reflects on his work and effort made.
Its part of a whole, do I want to promote that person/sack that person.
Get that person onto project I know they can manage and in turn reflects back on them as a good manager… etc
Sick leave should go into a fund transferable between employers to some extent.
Tough luck if you change jobs leaving behind 50 days, then one week into you new job, break a leg, and need two weeks off.
FYI : in the uk sick leave has no limit…..outcome is less sick leave used.
Generally your just paid out any excess sick leave when you resign.
Incorrect (at least in my experience). I had 60 odd days when I left a previous job. Didn't get anything for it. I did get my annual leave paid out though.
I've seen others paid out for theirs, that's really odd.
this is the exception. i would be certain 99/100 companies do not.
I have anxiety & depression, I generally don't disclose this to my employers unless I believe it is going to have a major impact on my work (ie. personal circumstances cause symptoms to increase). I generally end up utilising my sick leave every year too because I know that some days I wake up and I just need to recharge. I then can return to work with a clear mind and be much more productive than if I had just powered through.
I return the next day with no discernible symptoms so I bet my employers struggle with these thoughts too - that I'm just milking the system. The fact is that I need those days just as much as any other sick employee with a physical illness and I'm legally entitled to them. If your employees return to work healthier, happier and more productive after taking time that they're legally entitled to then why would you worry? Keep in mind that you may not have all the circumstances and having a breather from work for some people can be just as important to avoid long term sickness. Unless their output is suffering, I don't see there being an issue.
Yep, I don't have a problem with that or people in your situation. My problem with people (who have no physical or mental conditions) who see the weather forecast is 40C and decide they don't want to work and would prefer to go to the beach (or similar scenario). i.e. the traditional "sickie".
My point still loosely stands though. If they are a good worker (if they're not then you probably already know from their output), while they may not have an explicit illness they're obviously run down enough mentally to risk employers and co-workers opinions of them, in some cases even compromise their career (missing crucial meetings, etc) so maybe they need the day? I have a diagnosis I can point to if questioned but others (employers especially) really tend to underestimate the importance of mental health and how it will affect every other area of a person's life.
A 40 degree day at the beach now and then, with no questions asked might mean your employee may say 'no' to their friend that offers for them to jump ship to a similar job; it may mean that come pay review time, they're so happy with the environment that they will be willing to compromise on their figures; that when a new employee starts, they're happy to help with the on-boarding and provide a positive team vibe.
People know businesses exist to make money and when corporations say they care, in the best case they only mean that as far as the bottom line. You're legally bound to give them at least 10 days so being charitable with that is a very small step for you that goes a long way for your employees.
In your case you are genuinely sick. It may look suspicious but you are doing nothing wrong by taking those sick days. It's the "sickies" that people take when they are not sick that are the problem. Genuinely many people on this thread seem to think it is their right to do this which is incorrect.
Sick leave is an entitlement, there should be no rules on how one uses it with regards to frequency or volume..
If your policy dictates a medical certificate, then so be it.
If you "milk the system" then it's at your own peril for if you land yourself in hospital, etc.. and your balance is low, you will need to take unpaid sick leave.
Employers don't have the right to challenge or infer misappropriation on someone who takes sick leave (provided it fits within the relevant hr policy)- remember, there are many illnesses you can't see.
I agree that employers have no right to challenge if appropriate policies have been followed (med cert if required). However that doesn't mean the employee has the 'right' to milk the system. Practically they can do it because it is impossible to prove and they cannot be challenge but they are not technically entitled to have 'sickies' when they are not sick.
It's simple really.
You have allocated amount of days for sick leave, whether it's legitimate or not, it's there when you need it if you can't work.
However, you will find people using it up if they're about to leave their job.
Whether that's ethical or not, I think people start to justify their reasoning depending on if they feel a company owes them. Maybe they always worked back late, maybe never got a pay rise or promotion etc. People respond positively if they're happy, if they're not, well, what does the company expect?
Ive worked for the same company for 16 years and do not get sick leave or any sort of leave. I do have long service leave but have only taken 8 days of it.
Sucks to be me.
I cant complain about it because that's the award rate I am on as I am casual, but work full time hours.
I agree with above.
The person is using what they are entitled to and it maybe worthwhile just having a direct conversation just asking them whether they are OK given that they have utilized a much higher number of sick days than others. Are their mental health issues, are they caring for a family member etc.? put it from the angle that whilst they do not need to divulge specific details that it is better for management to be aware. If it is not in policy already, you may wish to require medical certificates/adequate explanation of sickness etc. and use the potential change of policy to initiate conversation with the said employee.
In saying that, I actually feel that taking a "sickie" or as we used to call them in a previous role, a "mental health day" is necessarily bad now and then and can actually be beneficial for staff morale overall. Previous boss just used to tell us on specific days when we were not busy to take them if we wanted (although most of us hardly took any sick leave at all). It is also worthwhile to save them for a rainy day as mentioned above.
Is her apartment immediately above a communal laundry?
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/285403