Hi, just wondering what Oz Bargains thoughts are on this.
[edit] Seems this post has pissed a lot of people off.
I was asking for peoples thoughts on weather taking your exact amount of paid sick leave every year is milking the system, weather you are sick or not.
I was not asking for "help" on what I should do, what the employees situation is, or the reasons my job requires me to look into this.
Whatever oz-bargain, have fun.
Yeah, for better or worse it certainly seems to be. Our company informally acknowledges this by offering employees a 'Well Day' - each year, if you have >8 days of sick leave accrued, you can take a day off and have it deducted from your sick leave allowance.
This should be a thing in all companies
Or pay out the sick days at the end of the year in cash.
@cashews: Re cashews' comment: This is what should happen, and used to happen. We employees PAY for our own sick leave; it is ours. It is one of the differences between permanent and casual wages. Unclaimed sick leave is the company profiting from our unpaid wages.
@poohduck: yup my dad got two year of sick pay he work at same come his whole life why should they get it all.
.. And also encourage sick people to come to work. Nothing I hate more than someone with 100 sick days coughing there guts up. If your sick, stay home. We dont want it.
@cashews: Not even legal https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid… is the minimum standard there is no legal avenue to trade/remove these minimum requirements should the employer pay out these sick days he would still be liable to pay sick pay when the employee is sick.
@coin saver: What do you mean it's not legal? It's just not included in a lot of Awards. However, there are a number of Enterprise Agreements that allow a payout of sick leave on termination or at year end.
@heatseeker424: Payout at termination yes, year end no unless employee still has 4 weeks sick pay left after the payout. Even if the employees agreement allows it the employer can only implement it by agreement with the employee (it is the employees decision not the employers)
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/cashing-out-a…
"Cashing out annual leave under a registered agreement
If you're covered by a registered agreement, check it for information on whether leave can be cashed out. To find a registered agreement, go to the Fair Work Commission website external-icon.png.
Certain rules apply when cashing out annual leave:
an employee needs to have at least 4 weeks annual leave leftover
a written agreement needs to be made each time annual leave is cashed out
an employer can't force or pressure an employee to cash out annual leave
the payment for cashed out annual leave has to be the same as what the employee would have been paid if they took the leave.
Source reference: Fair Work Act 2009 (Cth) sections 92, 93 and 94 external-icon.png
@coin saver:
I cash out my sickies every year as per our agreement (as long as i keep some in the bank in case i am sick)
maybe he is sick alot and comes in sick once he has used up his entitlement….
or… if there is no reason for him not to take them… why wouldnt he….so many employers are the least bit loyal now days…. a factory I know of had 10 people sacked a few days ago (some who had worked 30+ years) with no warning…to save some $$ they were told on the day, they are no longer required…
@coin saver: Not sure if you actually read the content, but this page says otherwise. Conditions to be satisfied but it can certainly be done.
@coin saver: Traditionally, employees were paid out any unused sick leave when they left the job. This seems only fair and right. You're getting back what you've paid for.
Re westernculture's comment that it encourages people to come to work sick: when I was young that was mostly true. Not because of accrueing sick days with the possibility of getting them paid back if or when they left work. It was the culture.
Things have changed now. It is not regarded well turning up to work coughing and spluttering. I only get sick from work despite this change. My work place is where I am in contact with many people, and most colds and flus seem to be contagious before the symptoms really set in. I only ever have to see the doctor for a certificate for a work related illness.
@sabracad:
those are the base awards for only those three areas…… if an EBA has been made and agreed, you arent ruled by those rules
@siresteelhell: All I said was that it was possible. The OP of thread said it wasn't possible despite his own link leading to content that indicated otherwise. If you're indicating employees covered by those awards can have eligibility taken away by an EBA that is possibly correct, but it is not only employees covered by those awards who can be eligible.
Copious sickies are generally taken if:
Totally agree with your comment, Most sick leaves that I took were because of reason 2 and 3.
Mine would be no 2. Same circus, different clowns.
Yep. Plan to do more sickies. Thanks
This kind of thing doesn't really give Australian workers a good reputation internationally.
But then you tell them government takes a third of our pay for the same hours they work, and they understand.
Australia has one of the lowest tax-to-GDP ratios in the OECD.
Source: Treasury. http://www.treasury.gov.au/Policy-Topics/Taxation/Pocket-Gui…
1/3 of income tax. Then GST, then fuel excise/ rego, then stamp duty, then CGT.. Sadly working from January to May is going to the government. I guess 2 months worth towards hospitals, roads, 1 month defence. The others. Well just turn on the news.
@tunzafun001: Ok, so the marginal tax rate from 37-80k (now more than 80k) was 32.5%. But because income below 37k is taxed at less than that, the /effective/ take rate is actually 9-23%. The median taxpayer pays about 15% of their income in tax, equivalent to 57 days - not exactly 5 months.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/grogonomics/2015/…
But as you point out, it isn't going to 'the government' as such - it's going towards hospitals, roads, education, childcare, the arts.
@drillvoice: Why is that though? We have so many natural resources that we can cut down or dig up and sell with relatively small outlay. What would be the tax to gdp ratios of Saudi Arabia or Dubai be?
@tunzafun001: I think if you're earning enough that 40% of your income is spent on tax then the $120,000+ that you have left over is probably going to be enough! :p
@poohduck: Simply because it's given away to corporations. They dig it all up, process and sell it, typically without paying bugger all tax.
It's why we needed a better mining tax.
Want this to change? Stop voting liberal. Support organisations trying to get money out of politics.
Does your company have a policy of supplying medical certificates for all sick leave?
I worked in the public service and if your leave pattern was suspicious you had a supply medical certificates for ALL sick leave.
We don't have a strict policy. Either way, Medical certs can easily be faked or purchased online.
pretty please let us know where we can buy it online….
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=medical+certificate+onlin…
$20 for an 'online consultation' and you're done.
Plenty of pharmacies do them in certain cases these days too.
http://www.chemmart.com.au/healthservices/in-store-health-se…
By saying that anything can be fake include the person claiming it is sick.
I think asking for medical certs can deter people in someway as they might need to visit the doctor on the sick day or pay money to obtain the cert.
If you trust the employee then don't judge or get rib of him if you don't trust him.
You can verify them with the doctor who wrote them. They don't have to disclose the illness but they can confirm the name and the date, as they have to keep a record of the consultation.
I can confirm that this is not true. Admission of a patient being at a surgery at a certain time is breach of confidentiality unless otherwise consented by the patient.
@realpotatoguy: Nope.
"The employer may, in certain circumstances, seek further information from the medical practitioner who issued the certificate. Reasonable circumstances may include occupational health and safety considerations as part of the employer’s implied duty of care for his or her employees. Other circumstances may include employer contacting the doctor to verify the veracity of a medical certificate, eg to determine if it’s fraudulent in any way."
Look at 'additional information'. http://workplaceinfo.com.au/resources/employment-topics-a-z/…
The employer can contact the Doctor to verify the veracity of a certificate only, not confirm if the patient was there at a certain date. This is NOT the same thing.
If a person is a patient of a practice, and that patient gave their employer a medical certificate. Confidentiality dictates that the doctor cannot disclose whether the patient was present, only whether they issued; to best their knowledge; a medical certificate. The catch 22 is, if a certificate is stated to be verifiable or unverifiable, that in turn discloses that the patient was or was not present and therefore breaches confidentiality. As such, most Doctors will not disclose.
If that person is not a patient, then this does not apply.
You're looking at it from the employer, but not the Doctor's point of view.
@realpotatoguy: I'm not an employer, I'm a doctor. If a patient hands their employer a piece of paper saying they were at a practice at a certain date and time, there is nothing confidential about those facts because they have already been disclosed. The employer is well within their rights to call the practice and say they've been given a medical certificate with a date and time on it, for patient x, and can they confirm that this certificate was issued. And they can and they do, this happens a fair bit.
What remains confidential is the reason the for the visit, that must absolutely not be disclosed. If the employer feels that the illness is impacting on the persons work, they can request a return to work certificate stating that the person can now do work, or do work with modified duties. I feel a bit cynical about return to work certificates.
As for the OP's original post, that person using up their ten days of sick leave could be having near-monthly appointments with some kind of health professional, i.e. physio/psychologist/doctor and if it's not impacting on their work and the medical certificates are legit, then it's their entitlement and shouldn't be used as a reason for discrimination.
Well I stand corrected. On consideration of your points and further discussion with peers, the consensus is that if a copy or the original of the certificate is provided; the veracity of the certificate can be confirmed.
Never mind. Just realized this is over a year old.
just go see Dr How Long
We have an employee working in an air-conditioned office, desk job, on salary, and it has come to light that they have used the exact number of paid sick leave days every year (10 days) for the last 6 years they have been employed here. Never a day less or a day over.
Additionally, does your company have a history of going over an employee's payroll history and discussing this information?
What about bulky bill GP, no has to be pretending sick or faking cert
not a lot of bulk bill GP around anymore
I literally go to my GP for med cert sometimes, I know I have a bad cold or something I'd recovery from in a few days, and all they are going to say is "drink more water, plenty of rest".
I also work for public service and we've been told that med certs are not necessary if you do a stat dec.
That's covered by medicare. Is it that hard to tell your doctor that you have a stomache bug? (Assuming that you indeed do)
=)
Don't people bank up their sick days and go on a long paid holiday every few years eventually anyway? Or is paid leave seperate?
Not where I work. It will accumulate if you don't take them.
Same. Mine is piling up.
Accumulation of sick leave is useful because I know a colleague who was hit with a misfortune (other half got cancer) and literally took all their accumulated 10 years plus worth of sick leave to sort the family out in addition to annual leave and whatever they could get their hands on.
The way I see it, It's a bit of an insurance policy.
@SeVeN11: I have a co-worker like that as well. Unfortunately got cancer and is almost through 11 years worth of accrued personal leave due to treatments/operations and unwell days.
I was unwell for 2 weeks last year and was very happy to have personal leave to take.
Insurance policy is a good way of looking at it.
My employer used to cap sick pay at 999hrs but now it is uncapped. When you leave by agreement with the company you can also cash in 228hrs.I have never in my life heard of an employer capping sick leave at 10 days i very much doubt that it would even be legal.No enterprise agreement or award would allow this.
I think it's capped at 10 days per calendar year, but carry over if not used. At least that is what I've experienced. I think it's Australian Legislation though?
the fair work act changed it so sick leave accumulates
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid…
@terminal2k: Please also note that this is the minimum standard "A registered agreement can set out different entitlements to paid sick and carer's leave, but it can't be less than the minimum above."
10 days is pretty standard in most companies
Cash in SL? That's awesome.
Not everyone is on an enterprise agreement or award. There are plenty of companies that cap sick leave and also don't allow you to cash in any sick leave when you leave
@hayne: They cannot cap your sick leave by law they must allow it to accumulate https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid… "How does paid sick and carer's leave accumulate?
Full-time and part-time employees accumulate sick and carer's leave during a year of work. It starts to build up from an employee's first day of work and is based on the number of hours they work.
The balance at the end of each year carries over to the next year." The link above is the minimum standard an employer of full time and part time employees must adhere to, these rights cannot be negotiated away in any private or enterprise agreement only improved upon.
After discovering I had over 3 months days sick leave I decided to plan some surgery that will require a large amount of time off work before changing jobs. Incidentally in the planning/prep time this will take it will also push me in to the range where long service leave is payable pro-rata, and by that point we've probably got another round of redundancies coming ;)
What a dream employee you must be
I got a knee arthriscoscy for the sake of it. I did need it but not that bad
Two weeks off work watching the ashes, siting on a couch with room service from the misses all for 1k outlay
@unclesnake: Joke's on you. Studies have shown no benefit over placebo for knee arthroscopy. In fact medium to long term outcome (pain-wise) is worse with arthroscopy. Yes, they faked surgery on some people to study this.
Are you talking about this study?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1305189#t=article
A sample size of 146 is hardly conclusive. They claim "the number of arthroscopic partial meniscectomies performed has concurrently increased by 50%.4 Approximately 700,000 arthroscopic partial meniscectomies are performed annually in the United States alone"
Definitely worth further study but nowhere near conclusive.
where is this study.
for the record my knee surgery has done wonders, it was 15 years ago. and no pain since.
and you cant fake doing surgery on some one unless they consent to possibly being selected to a placebo group as aopposed to the surgery, and who would pay for this?.
was this study u talk about double blind? triple blind?
@unclesnake: I didn't believe it until I googled it either.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023042449045792784…
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/06June/Pages/Knee-surgery-waste-…
http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2015/03/25/420…
I don't think it's conclusive and accepted medical practice but there's certainly a growing body of evidence.
@hayne: interesting, couldnt read the first article, 2nd article had to follow, 3rd article is looking at those with arthritis . I can only go on experience and my knee is great.
id do it again, just for the 2 weeks off.
not where I work, I have more than 1000 hours.
I've been with my current employer for almost 8 years and have 74 days of sick leave. It seems like a giant waste as I seldom take any sick leave, leaving it pile up…
I have 77 sick leave days at the moment. >.>
Showoff :p
That would be long service leave.
10 days isn't that much. They may have health issues you are unaware of.
10 days is a fairly large wedge of time to take sick, year after year.
I've taken something like 2 days a year every year except a decade ago where I had 5 or 6 thanks to a broken ankle.
I think it is quite reasonable to take a day off if you are unwell, and I support people staying home rather than spreading germs.
Similarly, I support people with chronic illnesses who need to take more time than might be allotted, whether it be from annual of unpaid leave..
But hitting the exact paid leave days on the dot, year after year is somebody who isn't using the system genuinely. They aren't doing the right thing by their employer, their team members, or other workers who might have genuine illnesses.
" or other workers who might have genuine illnesses." and therein lies the problem who in the office or here on Ozbargain is qualified to judge if they are genuine? I get sick of hearing at work and in other situations that someone who is on light duties or taking days off is faking it from process workers and forklift drivers.I just cant believe they gave away their careers to do these jobs.
I will put up my hand, and say I judge somebody who takes precisely their annual quota of sick days, never more or less, year after year, as somebody who is not taking sick days only when they are genuinely ill.
If somebody is regularly taking days when they are not genuinely ill, there is incentive for management to add rules and obstacles to make it harder to do this - so increased need to doctors certs etc.
This directly penalises everyone doing the right thing, making their lives harder when they are unwell.
Spot on, taking your exact sick leave each year = taking the piss.
IMO employers have every right to be suspicious.
@mskeggs: Someone needs to visit physio, psych, doctor, etc. for some underlying medical condition every 2 weeks, appointments generally take 2.5-3 hrs including travel. Over 52 weeks, that is almost exactly the 10 day sick leave allotment.
Is their visiting a therapist at a consistent booking every fortnight not a legitimate sick leave reason? That's not really even a far-fetched schedule for visits. Some people may need that, and it's not a short term thing.
You can't say the employee is/isn't taking the piss when you don't know the terms of the sick leave, which OP cannot give without breaching privacy laws.
@Rum:
Right, so in your example that person takes precisely 10 sick days every year, but for years and years has never had an extra day off due to being unwell? Come on.
My judgement is if somebody sometimes or occasionally takes their full allotment exactly, that is fine, and if someone takes more because they are unwell (taking unpaid sick leave or using annual leave) that is fine, and if somebody takes less than their allotment because they weren't sick much, lucky them.
But if an individual is precisely using their allotment each year for years on end with no additional days, and no years when they were luckily more healthy, it is pretty clear they are targeting using the whole allowance. This behaviour is bad for everyone using the system legitimately, because it puts the genuinely ill under suspicion or encourages management to implement additional burdens for taking leave.
@mskeggs: Any extra sick days would have been taken as Annual Leave if the employee couldn't afford unpaid leave. Not that far-fetched (I know a lot of people that would take annual leave over unpaid here). OP would not have factored that in at all.
@Rum:
I guess we'll never know, but I took the "exact" amount of sick leave and "whether you are sick or not" in the original post to mean they had taken that into consideration.
I think you will agree with me it is dubious to take precisely and only your paid sick leave for years on end, because I will certainly agree with you that it is entirely reasonable to take all your paid sick leave, plus extra from your annual or unpaid leave if you are genuinely ill and require this amount of time off.
@Rum: Or even flexitime, rostered days off or LSL most of the people on this site have made a judgment based on assumptions just like the op with no information evidence or qualifications to back themselves up.
Work for a major company, HR generally talks to people who take a lot of sickies.
They can't immediately sack you, but they'll find a away. ie your performance maybe sub par, they might of ignored this previously but now.
Or as someone at my work recently they just made the position obsolete, department restructure. She wasn't a sickie, they just didn't feel she did her job well.
Putting people onto continual projects like they're a promotion weeds people out to. After a few projects you can't go back to your old role, and there are no projects that want you.
sickies are an aussie tradition