Hi all, title explains the gist of it. What I'd like to find out are peoples' experiences with such fines and how to go about it; know my options.. because obviously I'm not here on ozb for shits n gigs. I'm here because money is a tight issue for me.
Thanks in advance!
Edit: here are some photos of Liara
http://imgur.com/qqdmlOY
http://imgur.com/95CGaYb
http://imgur.com/SGbmHgK
here is a vid too
https://www.facebook.com/100005836920639/videos/772198916317…
never adopted a cat before. and she's an inside cat. thanks for your input.
Where did you adopt her it from? Surely from a reputable place (eg. RSPCA) they would have given you information regarding what you were required to do?
I didn't realise cats needed registration.
Thankfully mine has never been pulled over…
north melbourne's lost dog's home. they gave me a new adoption packet but none of the paperwork specified anything about another registration
RSPCA reputable haha you're funny.
That is really odd. We have adopted 2 cats from there and both times the person who was handling the paperwork made it very clear that by law they have to notify the local council within 24 hours of all adoptions and that you need to register your cat within 30 days or get fined.
To be fair, registering a car is a rather well know idea, but registering a cat? I didn't even know this was required and I've had cats all my life (which is a looooooong time)
You speak as if it's a given and everyone should know. What about a bird? What about a lizard? What about mice and guinea pigs?
Honestly, I think it's unreasonable to just assume it's common knowledge, because it's not.
@jv: Huh?
Well, you see, you're wrong.
I live in SA and it is not required by most councils: http://goodcatsa.com/cat-by-laws
So, next time you buy any new item, you best go check if there is some unknown law you're supposed to abide by… Obviously you're not going to do that - it's not a practical expectation.
And even if you didn't know, it's no excuse for breaking the law.
What nonsense. How can someone be expected to abide by a law they don't know exists? That's nonsensical.. Do you think before you type? Making others feel bad is a sport for you, I can see that. But really, you're just being a douche.
@jv:
Like many I also was unaware of the need to register cats… iDroids comment below says that in SA it is not compulsory with most councils.
I am not surprised that this law exists in vic though :-(
Like many I also was unaware of the need to register cats…
The law imputes knowledge of all laws to all persons within the jurisdiction no matter how transiently…
@jv: have always known cats and dogs need to be registered.
You've known things that were not true then. Registration of cats is a recent phenomenon. I doubt it was required anywhere in Australia prior to 1990. It wasn't introduced in WA until 2011, and was recently abolished in parts of Qld.
@iDroid: > How can someone be expected to abide by a law they don't know exists? That's nonsensical..
Yeah I killed that man, but, like, I didn't know that was illegal, so no need to lock me up. Won't happen again.
@abb:
Yeah I killed that man, but, like, I didn't know that was illegal, so no need to lock me up. Won't happen again.
Yeah but normal rational thinking will indicate that this is illegal (or at least not the right thing to do) and directly effects other people. But the requirement to register a cat does not have the same ideological basis.
There is no immediately obvious consequence to others if I don't register my cat - why would I think there is a law governing it?
@iDroid: Oh, I agree with it being unexpected, I had no idea either. It's just that "I didn't know" is not a valid legal defense.
@jv: It's not a vote. The AEC has no part in this.
What you meant to write was
My choice in the non-binding, non-compulsory survey will be No.
Would have to agree. Never had a pet before so never even knew you had to register. I think the OP deserves some sympathy. Would be pretty shitty to get a $311 fine for something like that.
@jv:
I will be voting NO
Nobody cares for your continual off-topic political commentary. Go back to burying your head in the sand.
How can someone be expected to abide by a law they don't know exists?
What?
Ignorantia juris non excusat - Ignorance of the law is no excuse - has been a legal principle since ancient times. We inherited it from the English legal system and it has been upheld by the Australian courts.
@iDroid: Huh? So you're saying ignorance is an excuse??? He was arguing against that. For all it's worth, ignorance is NEVER an excuse and you'd have to be stupid to think that.
@jv:
It depends on who you are before ignorance of the law kicks in.
Police can be ignorant of the law, for example meta data laws and being ignorant that the police need a warrant to access the meta data of a journalist.
An investigator with the Australian Federal Police (AFP) sought and acquired the call records of a journalist without a warrant
He said "human error" was responsible
The Commissioner said the material, which has since been destroyed, could not be "unseen" by officers investigating the leak.
No disciplinary action has been taken against the investigator behind the breach, with Commissioner Colvin saying he did not believe there was any "ill will or bad intent".
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-28/afp-officer-accessed-j…
Try using that excuse next time you get caught speeding or running a red light and see how far it gets you…
Non-sequitur.
Oh, try that analog with bicycle.
Huh? So you're saying ignorance is an excuse??? He was arguing against that. For all it's worth, ignorance is NEVER an excuse and you'd have to be stupid to think that.
Ignorantia juris non excusat(en.wikipedia.org) - Ignorance of the law is no excuse - has been a legal principle since ancient times. We inherited it from the English legal system and it has been upheld by the Australian courts.
The idea of "ignorance not being an excuse" is obviously required in criminal law otherwise the system would not function.
But the concept that someone can be "unaware of a law", is obviously not a crazy one, I feel quite sane believing that. I'd imagine there's a far number of laws we're all not aware of.
Some laws are obscure, some are outright crazy - most of these are not actively enforced. For the most part, we're not aware they exist, but many do. It would be unfair for them to be enforced even though they could be.
Most laws are not obscure and IMO they're obvious since we're brought up and educated with a predefined/socially acceptable set of norms. That means that for most laws the underlying rationale for the law is inherent in our society and social norms.
This gives basis to the idea that "ignorance is no excuse" and that makes good sense. If this was a law that fell into the socially expected behaviour category then I'd be arguing very strongly that ignorance is no excuse.
But this fails on things like by-laws and obscure laws since they are not obvious. The expectation that one should know them is absurd unless they are routinely "advertised" or properly administered at the point of sale or similar.
By-laws are especially bad in this respect as they're often defined and administered by non law enforcing bodies. They are laws that are typically not associated with protecting the interest of people and society. Required registration of a cat is a by-law. In reality, we all know that this registration is nothing more than a revenue raising exercise. Still valid, since revenue must be raised some-how. It's a tax, one I'm fine with.
But I certainly can not agree with the notion that you are expected to naturally be aware of an arbitrary law imposed by a non law enforcing body that doesn't have an obvious social purpose.
What the law enforces in a court does not always relate to common sense, IMO this is one example. It's there because the system requires it or criminals will get away with what ever they like.
We're not a court. Here in OzBargain land the idea that someone may not be aware of a particular by-law is not so amazing and is IMO totally believable - a valid excuse even (by my understanding of socially acceptable behaviour).
As for being "stupid" for thinking that "ignorance" can be an excuse, well…. what can I say. I base my thinking on common sense, not some concept that's required to make law work in a court. Call me crazy, but feels rational to me.
I really hope you don't treat your friends and family with such disdain for situations where they may show ignorance. Just because something has the letters 'law' in them doesn't mean you should toss common sense and understanding out the window.
@jv:
Shut up Salim, no one cares.
OP: you are easy picking.. that's why you got fine. If you ask your council to check on puppy farms and all that and they will required you to submit 10 years of evidence, not having a little kitten registered and they will jump up and down like you have killed the POTUS.
@RalX: No-one (and you've probably significantly underestimated the volume of case law you'd need to review as well). It's a bug/feature of our legal system that almost no-one knows the rules and hence probably breaks some. Then the police/government get to pick who to prosecute.
The registration is for the pets welfare as well. Once my cat went on a long trip (as cats do) and got lost. Thankfully, a person found him, identified me as the owner through the embeded tag and my contact detail through the council registration and brought him back to my house!!!
Bottom line - if you love your pets - tag and register them :)
Chips are separate from Registration. Registration is just the council collecting money for nothing.
money for.. paying for on-call staff to drive out and collect/manage lost/stray cats, check on owner compliance, run education programs etc..?
It's an indoor cat. Yeah, maybe it could escape if he leaves the door open by mistake or something but it's pretty unlikely.
Paying a fee for dogs makes a little more sense because they escape more, can bite people if they run loose etc but a cat?! I immigrated from the States some years ago. When I heard that Aussie councils make you register cats I thought it was a piss take. My point is most first world countries are serious about requiring dog registration but cat registration still sounds like a joke.
As for checking owner compliance and running education programs… when would they have time to do that inbetween all their smokos?
and desex them!
is chipped & tagged the same as register, or is the council designed by incompetent people that want two processes, just to keep their cousins/mates in a job.
I could automate 99% of the councils operations using computers - then sack em.
@SteveOh: Sorry but thats just wrong. That money actualy goes into managing pet welfare efforts. Those services cost lots to run. When your pet ends up in a pound, its your registration fees that partially pays for the cost.
The council also records owner details via registration. In my case the council had an updated contact details ( i had change houses) which allowed my cat to find its way home.
Bottom line - dont get a pet if you cannot accept the responsibilities that cone with it.
Have you lived in Australia all your life?
If you've only recently joined us, you probably have a somewhat valid excuse; but otherwise it's very, very common knowledge.
Australia is a big place and the rules are not universal or well known: : http://goodcatsa.com/cat-by-laws
but otherwise it's very, very common knowledge
Err, no.. maybe in your circles, but you know, some people live very different lives than you. It's probably not a great idea to expect everyone to have been exposed to the same as you have, you'll likely put your foot in your mouth too often.
You can see that it's not "very very common knowledge" just by the number of posters here that were not aware..
Sorry, didn't think my comment was that harsh - "very, very common knowledge" is just plain wrong and I was just pointing out that it's not and that you're being closed minded.
The site you linked states that only a handful of SA local government areas require cat registration and that the state-wide requirement started in July this year.
@Boshait: ?? Not sure what you mean?
It states that compulsory microchipping and desexing is coming in July 2018. Nothing about compulsory registration that I can see there.
I have lived in Australia all my life and have no idea that you need to register a cat.
Not all of us live in the countryside with ACA on every night.
It is ridiculous that you need to register you cat; and furthermore it is ridiculous all the carnivorous (profanity) on here who use the term "animal welfare".
😂 inside 🙀.. Lol 😂
Sorry 🙏 lol 😂
Must be a full moon, or people didn't get a screw lately. I don't know what's all this bashing about.
$311 seems really excessive for not registering a cat. But i can't help you, try to google it up.
how did you get caught anyway?
I mean she's an inside cat so… just curious!
EDIT: i see my qn has already been asked!
Once upon a time we purchased a cat from a breeder, the breeder said they would organise all relevant paperwork, 8 months later the council setup traps in our area before midday (cats can be outside during the day) and our cat got caught. We received a fine for the cat not being registered with the council but it did have a microchip.
This made me laugh. I wish my council would set up traps. I think anyone whose pet is caught wandering the streets unsupervised deserves a fine.
Would be interesting to read your councils pet management plan to see how they deal with feral cats. Trapping is about the only way to deal with cats in an urban environment.
Perhaps he's a normal human being who isn't aware of every single law and regulation. He may have adopted the cat from any number of places without knowing that it requires registration.
Enforcing a fine against this guy serves absolutely no purpose. They obvious weren't trying to avoid registering their cat, and if they had known it was required they would've done it. Fining them is not a positive thing for the OP or for society.
We have the fine as a way of ensuring people register their cat, if someone doesn't know, first you tell them "hey, you have to register your cat otherwise you will get a fine". It's ridiculous and foolish to have a policy to try to enforce fines like this that don't serve a positive purpose. It's like there's some sort of weird mental cloud in Australia where everything thinks that the second a fine is applied it's 100% justified and should never be questioned or argued against.
Every post on ozbargain about fines the responses are "Just pay it". This needs to be adjusted.
The responses are probably to "just pay it" because the effort of trying to fight it (and invariably failing) is not worth it.
Having said that, I agree with you. The toll roads, for example, have a system where if you fail to pay you get a notice with a $14 (?) admin fee. $14 is a reasonable penalty for a minor oversight, $311 is not.
It's interesting this happened to me before.
They offer you when you get the cat to microchip it for you so if it gets lost it'll be easier to "track"
Little did I know they then send the information to the council who then bend you over a barrel.
You missing step 4: complain in OzBargain
Hmmm, my experiences with fines that are just is to pay them, move on and not make the same mistake again.
Every dog and cat three months of age and over must be registered with your local council. (link)
Is the new cat over 3 months old? How did you get caught anyway?
i don't really know. she's an inside cat. i got her from the lost dogs home at 3 months 3 weeks and a month in i received the fine with no warning before hand or any information that i needed to register it with the council.
Just wait untill they put the cat up for adoption and pretend you want to adopt it. Lol
Normally they send a letter first telling you how to register them. Thats what happened when i got my cat from RSPCA. Recently got a cat from Lost Nogs too and no letter yet, but i wont be paying a cat fee.
tell them the cat is a refugee from syria and is only visiting.
They sent the details of your address at the adoption centre to the local council, informing them about your new pet.
Some adoption shelters are more efficient and some less about it.
It seems they then did some cross check internally at the council and then issued you the fine for not registering the cat in time.
The adoption home probably sent an alert to the council.
Wouldn't that be a breach of privacy?
The agency are required to send the microchip number to the central hub (there are a couple of agencies in Melbourne at least that have this info) which has the adopters address on it. The council checks these records against their registrations, and if your animal is unregistered you're sprung.
If an animal is microchipped the adoption centre has to report on where that animal went if it is no longer with them.
The vet will rat you out - happened to a mate recently too.
they probly get a finders 40% fee
The adoption centre are required to send microchip information to the microchip repository which has the adopter's address and council on the paperwork. It's the adopter's responsibility to register the animal with the council in a timely manner. Nobody needs to report or see the cat. The paperwork tells the council it's there.
I personally don't believe OP that the adoption centre didn't give them this information. Either that or they weren't listening. I adopted a cat from Lort Smith and they were very firm in checking we understood the process
I'm here because money is a tight issue for me.
Never owned a pet, but you might be able to pay the fine by installments maybe? Might make it easier.
Cat must have pissed off the neighbors or something - enough for them to report it.
Just pay the fine. It's unlikely you'll have it waived. If money's tight, maybe ask them for payment plan?
Btw: I think registering only costs $25 if the cat is desexed and another $100 if it isn't.
Curious how an indoor cat would piss off the neighbours. Gave them filthies from the window?
Whoops! Missed that. OK, replace the word cat with OP
Best way to go about it would be:
Turn over the fine, read payment options
Choose best one, proceed to pay
Done.
Drop pants.
Bend over.
Wait for council to insert.
Some of us prefer to fight.
Money is tight.
Gets a cat.
Dafuq.
had free food where i was staying and it helped my mental health.
she's a kitten and idk what else to tell you. im an idiot with lots of issues and a cat seemed to have helped more than harmed? im not looking for trouble with you.
Don't worry too much about comments here that can make you feel crap. You will get a mix of politically correct, negative Nancies that pretend that they have never made a mistake before in their life.
We all stuff up!
If a cat helps you with your mental health, then good for you!
You had good intentions of adopting this cat.
Do some research of how to love and take care of the animal, and also what the Council can do for you to provide you with any assistance (good luck on this one).
In relation to the fine, unfortunately, that's all they really care about. Money!
You can beg & plea, do cartwheels … etc with them … but you will only get an extension to pay the fine.
They will not withdraw the fine. I guarantee you 100% Please prove me wrong!
Learn from your mistake and move on.
Wishing you the best of luck with your beloved Cat.
Cheers
They won't withdrawl it but their laziness can work to your benefit if you refuse to pay. They can't just fine you. They have to provide some evidence in local court.
@Shepard: go down to council and explain the shelter did not inform you of your need to register and would appreciate the chance to do the right thing and ask for a reduced fine.
If your nice maybe the counter lady can suggest ways to get it reduced. If she does though you better take her back some flowers.
I guess it's up to the OP to contest this and if he has the emotional stamina & capability to go through all of this farce. David vs Goliath scenario again.
Many debt collecting agencies use some sort of emotional bullying to claw back monies…
Look at CityLink. How the f&&&! can you rack up a $40K fine over a certain period of not paying the initial fine of ~ $300?
That is "highway" robbery! … on top of that, they are doing roadworks @ 40Kph!!! So basically, you are not even getting a proper service!
If it was a telco, they would compensate you if you don't achieve anywhere near your bandwidth.
Going by the OP's reported emotional state, he is just better off mentally to organise a payment plan rather going through the mental-draining exercise of contesting.
Cheers
Food, litter… Vet once a year. There are other things that cost way more. Having a cat has done wonders for me, cheaper than my psych sessions.
what are you expecting?
end of story