My wife recently joined an aged care in rural WA as a registered nurse. The employer is paying her award wages. Last week she had to work overtime for 2 hours. The CEO is refusing to pay her over time saying that it is her problem not being able to finish her job by the end of the shift. She has tried her maximum to finish her job in time and has not taken lunch or tea breaks during the shift. Is an employer legally allowed to refuse payment for overtime work? What to do about it?
Employer Refusing to Pay Overtime. What to Do?
Beven2008 on 16/01/2018 - 14:07
Comments
I work 10 hours a day, 2 of them being overtime.
I do not get paid an overtime rate however I just get paid 10 hours normal rate.Is what your saying is your wife is not getting paid at all for those two extra hours or is she not getting an overtime rate for those two hours?
Yes she is not getting paid at all for the extra work
Unfortunately it's pretty common in the corporate world, they try to pass it off as 'reasonable overtime' which you always have the right to refuse.
But since it's unfortunately the norm, you may end up locking yourself out of advancement positions / promotions etc if you actually do refuse.
For overtime it usually needs to be approved in advance by means of the supervisor asking staff to extend their shift or coming in on a day off on an overtime shift to cover sick leave/etc.
I do not know whether it is possible in an aged care setting. She has to give medication to all the residents and do documentation of what she did. And if any resident get suddenly ill she has to manage that as well. There are enquiries from the family members she needs to answer. Being work so unpredictable, I feel it is unfair to ask staff to finish on exact shift timings.
Maybe read the fairwork stuff then call them if it doesn't solve your issue
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-w…
Why she go straight to the CEO? Were there not a few Managers to contact on the way up to that?
There are no Managers in between. She emailed the PA, but the CEO replied to that mail saying all queries should be directed to her.
If there are no managers in between and the CEO did not instruct/approve her to do overtime, who did?
The CEO did not mention anything about overtime, my wife just gave a heads up to the PA about the overtime work she did last week. It is only then we are told that we are not supposed to do overtime without prior permission
Your wife should ask for premission and seek for reimbrust next time if OT is required. If not approved then she need to go home and not work OT.
Lesson learnt, you can't just go and claim extra wages from your employer, these things need to be agreed.
If the supervisor told her to stay and work extra 2 hours, then it is implied she will be paid.
If she stayed later to finisht he work and then claimed it I think they are within rights to reject it.
We had similar thing, we were told we cannot do double shift anymore as we are legally required to get overtime for every hour over 8 hours. You think they backpaid us?
call ur union
nurses are part of a very strong union, let them handle itLol, gunna go out on a limb here and assume you posting “call the ANF” didn’t resonate with the audience, OR the audience didn’t know the ANF was a nurse Union, whereas this post clearly states “union” making it explicitly clear for readers leading to many many positive votes
Don’t worry bro, you don’t need those + votes to justify your post and it’s merits vs this one, unless of course you are engaged in some bet as to who can receive the most + votes, it which case I wish you good luck and have suitable scrolled up to deliver you one more + vote. Good luck
Also it's not called the ANF anymore, it's the ANMF.
@MissG: Interesting. Its still the ANF here in WA - where the OP is from (technically the ANFIUWP, but generally just ANF).
And three morons actually DOWNVOTED my comment. Why would someone downvote advice to call the union??? Because some Ozbargainers are arseholes.@blaircam: No idea, I thought it was a nationwide name change.
As for downvoting, just ignore, I don't know why it even exists as an option as there's a 'report' button as well. The way I see it, if someone downvotes me it means they've read what I've written.
/r/karmacourt
I'd still give AMF a call tho.
"Can my cousin and I go bowling?"
Not sure why you're getting downvoted more for asking a question.
See my reply to original15
Yeah i can explain.
You wrote ANF, i "read" IMF and started thinking about mission impossible. To which my thought was it has nothing to do with nurses. But then i remembered he was married to a nurse i think, who used a power point to bring him back to life. Then i remember how funny tom cruise looks when he runs. By that time, i had scrolled down too far and forgot to +1 your post. But ill do it now.
haha that train of thought was funny!
we have a new JV
Does she have a union she can go to, to clarify?
My wife's an RN at a major Vic hospital and sometimes she'll get OT paid and sometimes she'll stay a few hours back to help out. I'm assuming that the OT needs to be approved beforehand?
I'm not entirely certain on the conditions - but I know some roles have OT and some don't (mates a cop and he mentioned he doesn't get paid OT) and there are some that stay back because they genuinely care about their patients or their colleagues (wife)She is a member of the union. The problem is that she is on probation and if the employer says she is not competent, i think it won't come under unfair dismissal
Maybe don't mention it to the boss again until probation ends. Then bring in the union.
While it can be wise to let some signs go during probation, employees pushing against industry agreed awards while not atypical can be a sign of a detrimental work environment that may show further problems later down the track.
Employees will more often push for workers to give up rights but they (almost) never say here have more.
On a side note I started Uni as a paid up Young liberal, begin working life as disliking unions (for still valid reasons). I eventually changed careers and after a short period was relieved that it was unionised. I have been a paid member for over decade including a stint as a union rep at my place of work.
Don’t worry. Make an adverse action claim instead then.
quit
The aged care sector stinks to high heaven. I hope I never end up in one of those hell holes. Everyone penny pinches, including the Government. The staff are exploited and the clients get terrible food and conditions and are pinged for every expense they can be; they even ration adult nappies FFS.
If I had a nursing degree I would be looking for work in a different place.
If it were me I would do this:
- As end of shift approaches, make note of all tasks that still need doing
- Pass the list on to someone still on shift, and go home
You can't expect someone to work for free. As long as no tasks are left hanging (i.e. not done and nobody was told they needed to be done so they got missed) I can't see how anybody could get you in trouble.
She works in the evening shift and there is no registered nurse in night shift. And in nursing if you have not documented it you have not done it. Moreover it is people's lives at stake so can't take that chances.
It's on the employer's head. They can either pay her overtime or take responsibility for the patients.
Edit: She should find out what the procedure is for who to pass tasks to if there is nobody of her level remaining on staff when she goes home. For example, calling a manager/the CEO so they can call in someone who is on call.
It negatively affects her good standing as a nurse if the employer accuses her of negligence for her clients. Somebody may lose their life if she just go home on time shaking off all responsibilities and leaving everything to the management.
@Beven2008: are you saying it is reasonable for the employer to employ (lol) guilt to make her work without being paid?
The employer is paying her award wages.
so she gets paid hourly?
Yes
is that common for a rn?
I am not sure.. that's why I started OP
It is the only way RNs get paid
you need to actually look and see what the working contract stipulates in regards to overtime
The contract says that you will be paid overtime if it is required by the management. It says nothing about taking prior approval.
So was the overtime required by management. E.g did the employer request your partner to stay back or did your partner take the initiative and continued to work pass their shift?
The employer did not make any request to do overtime. She felt responsible to finish off the work assigned to her rather than leaving on time. Maybe as she just started at this facility, she was not familiar with the residents and took time to verify each resident and their medications. And some residents had particular requirements about how they choose to be administered. Not knowing all these resulted in taking more time than an experienced nurse in that particular facility.
She directly reports to the CEO and there are no managers in between. The CEO has flat out refused to pay overtime. As a small aged care facility with only 40 residents, I am not sure whether they have an HR department. The job offer and rosters are given to us by the PA of the CEO
@Beven2008: The contract you have outlined doesn't require employees to be paid for overtime in that instance. It's like that because otherwise employees just work slower so they need overtime and get paid more, it's otherwise frequently exploited.
In this case, the employer is very clearly right.
That's what that means. Required by the management means they asked you to do it. If they did not ask you to do it, it's not required by management. As an employee, you might feel it's required by the job, but that's the manager's call to make, not the employees. The manager might find someone else to cover it who was more lightly loaded, or might decide the work actually doesn't need to be done that day / week, or might instead offer TOIL another day.
Can you name and shame the employer please?
I won't do that because it against ethics to do so while being employed by them.
Why name and shame the employer? We've only one side of the story. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Doing this may prevent future employment as future employers may concern that you may do the same if you have issues regarding your potential workplace and that may lower their reputation
Why? The Employer is following the standard procedure for overtime, it needs to be approved in advance.
Make sure she keeps a record of the hours worked, something that is time stamped. If you are worried that they will just fire her then wait until the 6 month mark before going to the union for help (probation period for unfair dismissal is 6 months if the company has more than 15 employees, regardless of what her contract might say).
The other option is to raise the issue now and take the risk. Weigh up what is more important. You could look at the media though to be honest this is nothing compared to other situations out there… Not to say it's not important to your wife though.
Your wife is still covered by general protections laws - such as unlawful action like firing someone because they exercised a workplace right. It's not as straight forward as unfair dismissal though and more difficult to prove. Check out the fair work commission website for more details.
Make sure she is also documenting the discussions with the CEO.
Thank you.. Anyway she has decided that she won't be staying there for long.. and has started to actively look for jobs. So she is going to let it slide
I'm sure you'll find the same in any job, the employer has probably already started looking for a replacement given the attitude.
I always thought that overtime had to be approved and agreed by both parties (employer and employee) (at least when paid hourly), otherwise, everyone could just slack off to gain overtime and get more money.
The employment contract says that you should work overtime if required by the management. There is no mention of requiring prior approval. We were under the impression that finishing the duties are also a "requirement by the management". She was not intending to slack off and get extra money but was genuinely working hard to get it done within time. It is unreasonable to expect a new staff to perform like a long term employee does. When she was refused payment for the over time she did she felt under appreciated and let down. Had they let us known about it before hand this disappointment would have been avoided.
Research what your rights are, a contract can NOT override Fair work laws.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-w…
She should look for another job in all seriousness, that place is crap.
If she stays, well… suck it up till probation ends then either:
- Leave on time with the job incomplete.
- Cut corners to finish on time.
But seriously, she should be job searching elsewhere.
Sorry but 2 hours of extra work in a week because you're still coming up to speed is going to be regarded as reasonable by fairwork.
Basically, in this case, they could have asked for the overtime and it would have still been fair to get the work for free. But even worse for the employee, the employer didn't even ask, which means there isn't even any basis for declaring it to be unreasonable.
Most jobs are like this, I'd be searching elsewhere at this stage though because the employer will be looking for a replacement already. Maybe next time don't stuff up by having unreasonable expectations.
@Bargs: I Realised that it is a standard practice in aged care not to pay staff if they are not able finish their work within the shift timings. And majority of nurses do not finish on time. All she did was seeking clarification from the employer and was not at all showing any bad attitude. I came here to know about the options she has. And from the answers it is clear that she doesn't have many.
The CEO has made it clear that there will not be overtime pay.
Yes, employees have rights etc, but realistically, it you're new and you try to stir the pot, they'll be able come up with a million reasons to get rid of you without any chance of you being able to sue for unfair dismissal.
Just remember the three month probation period goes both ways.
I think this job is pretty much going to be a case of "take it or leave it".
Union
Gone. - Western Force got cut.
I'd suggest arranging to speak with the CEO, apologising for the misunderstanding regarding overtime, but asking to clarify how to proceed in future when it becomes apparent that the RN workload can't be completed within the allocated time. Either the workload is too high, or your wife may just be completing it a bit slower than normal, perhaps due to it being a new environment or because she's performing duties which the manager doesn't consider are hers to perform.
Asking colleagues for advice isn't unreasonable either. "Hey do you know whether the previous RN on this shift managed to complete their work within their allocated hours? Am I doing something that I shouldn't be doing?"
Personally I think it's reasonable to put in a bit of extra time up front. I appreciate having a job and every job adds to my future employment prospects so a few extra hours of my own time while I come up to speed seems a small price to pay.
This!!!!
Communication is keyYeah, basically this. If it's just a problem because she's new, it will go away soon. Then it won't be an issue. Repeatedly jumping jobs because you will find this everywhere when just starting out will make long-term employment prospects much worse.
I don't know why people treat having what is presumably a reasonably salaried job the same as they would a casual job. If you're employed on a per-hour basis, then by all means, get paid per hour. Even then I've written off hours when coming up to speed (though I have been sure to note them on timesheets/invoices regardless, because you at least want that recognition).
Her job is not a salaried job and she gets paid award wages per hour. That's why I thought she might be entitled to get overtime payment
Oh, then that sucks. Basically then her option is to not work that overtime in the future, get permission in advance or quit. :(
Also Nurse in a regional area should really be making more than award :/
If an employee decides to work overtime and expects to be paid it then they are spending the employer's money without giving the employer a say in the decision. That's not right by any standards. If the workload is too high then discuss it with the employer or get out. In this case, the employer is not going to pay more money. No doubt, they have a budget and are sticking with it. If the budget gets destroyed by extra spending then the CEO may get the chop.
The choices are don't work the extra time and get the sack, suck it up and work the extra time for free, or get out. None of these are very good choices. However, sometimes we get into situations like these and we have to make decisions. I think I read that your wife has probably made the best decision to get another job. If she only ever wants to work straight hours then get a job in a public hospital and keep your phone number private or don't answer phone calls showing as private number. Even in a private hospital as a nurse she is likely to be in the position to need to work extra time sometimes and they may not want to pay for it.
The choices are don't work the extra time and get the sack, suck it up and work the extra time for free, or get out.
Or, actually, you know, have a discussion with the employer and find out what the expectations are. Unless the employer is actually evil, it is probably what Zambuck said, and she is doing a task she isn't meant to be doing, and that's why she finds she can't finish on time. Or else, the employer will tell her what the procedure is if there are tasks left unfinished at home time.
People might want to read the exposes The Age did on the aged care facilities. Exploitation of workers in those places is quite common. You don't have to "get out" if you are not being treated according to employment rules, you should get what you are entitled to. This is a lesson that Dominos, 711 etc, are all learning.
Domino's / 711 employ workers on a casual basis at a minimum wage. This isn't the same thing. Higher paid jobs come with higher expectations.
By all means if you're having to work 20 extra hours just so patients don't get neglected, blow the whistle or leave. But this isn't that, this is TWO more hours in a WEEK while coming up to speed. To me, that sounds like it's very well staffed, most of the time it's much worse. TLDR; Employee has found a winner of a job, but is obviously too inexperienced to reaslise it, and is going to have to work some places much much worse before they do.
@Bargs: TL:DR you have no idea what the person who is doing the job is experiencing and you are making a judgement call without tbe relevant knowledge; how the hell do you know this is a "winner of a job" - personally I wouldn't be touching it with a barge poll given what a nurse would be expected to do in an aged care facility. Two hours in a difficult stressful job can be worse than much more than that in a low stress easy environment.
The issue is around exploitation and if you read The Age articles you would see that exploitation of workers and patients in these situations is not uncommon. The rise in the pay levels of management is majorly outstripping the pay of the average workers. Most wage increases require a "productivity" increase, so in real terms the workers are going backwards.
@try2bhelpful: I'm going based on what the OP has said in this thread. And apologies, my comment was in reference to other nursing jobs, rather than jobs in general. Also, you make my point precisely, exploitation of workers is not uncommon, but in this case, the OP has said that 2 hours was 'seen to be required' to be worked, over a WEEK, while still coming up to speed, and that the employer didn't request this.
So yeah, there could be other issues, but we can only go off the 'non-issue' that was the reason for the post.
Trust me, 2 hours in a stressful job is worse than a lifetime in a non-stressful job. Fortunately, they pay better or no one would do them. I realise not all nursing jobs do, which is why I'm friends with several ex-RN's who all quit from being overworked and underpaid. They had it a million times worse than this.
@Bargs: Yeah, 2 hours may not seem like much to start with, and I have certainly done a lot more than that in my time in the IT industry, but when you are new into a job the question becomes "will this become scope creep?" and, unfortunately, places like age care homes are rife for this sort of thing. I couldn't think of anything worse than working in a place like that; I think this would be one of the most depressing jobs going - surrounded by decline, dementia and death. I don't think this is a "non-issue" just an amber light to see if it becomes a red one. To paraphrase a saying - "the price of not being exploited is eternal vigilance".
@try2bhelpful: the advantage of a probationary period is you can quit with less notice too. I’d be looking at how longer term staff were treated as a guide, if they’re worked senseless get out.
if she is in a union then seek their advice and act on it. on probation you may have few rights. get with the govt dept overseeing this labour dispute [dept of industrial relations?] and seek their advice. Be prepared for a lot of stress going down this path.
sometimes it would be better to leave. or apply elsewhere and resign. and have good answers to interview questions around this. you can't be seen to be attacking fascist employers!
Might be worthwhile having an interview with an agency.
Excellent casual rates and none of the BS she currently getting.
Is there a government body that regulates nursing homes? You may be able to use them to your advantage.
As a general rule, if you haven't been asked to stay back, you don't get paid.
If the tasks set are impossible in the time frame that is an unrelated issue.
We have decided to let go the issue. The only problem is that they did not tell us beforehand about the conditions for getting overtime and was disappointed when they denied payment when we asked for it.
It's arguably in the contract, but just that you didn't realise it.
Probably yes.. But I cannot believe almost all nurses there are working extra hours ,even without taking their breaks for nothing
I have had jobs that didn't pay overtime (or didn't pay for all overtime). It's almost an accepted part of the job.
Those who can find a better job will leave and those who can't will just bite their tongue. The condition will only change if the employer can't find anyone who needs the job enough to replace them.
I used to work in casual in banks and retail long time ago, if I had to stay back longer to make the books balance or clean up the store there was no entitlement to extra pay.
The fact you're wife has complained to the CEO while still on probation.. about not being paid for less than half an hour a shift whilie she comes up to speed, well I don't want to pass judgement but she sounds like a PITA.
- Most of the floor staff in these places are A.I.N's ie. Assistant in Nursing Cert 3. Short course -"supervised"by an R.N.
- They are mostly Private Facilities stated up and run for a profit, so management will get bonuses when the budget is under spent
3.Union membership is not a compulsory thing , and they are hardly the BLF .
This is so typical a story.
I would suck it up for 3 months and see if she can just become more efficient nurse practitioner/bedmaker/bottom washer
Or go get a job in a govt. Hospital where the shit/blood ratio is a bit betterIt is common for RN’s to work more hours, skip breaks etc. approval is always required and rarely given.
Take the breaks otherwise there an increased risk of human error.
Don’t do extra hours. document what is not done and why.
I have found TOIL to be offered more often than overtime in nursing.
I worked in a job where I needed to travel 1100-1400 km a week through the district. My boss refused to give permission For TOIL so most of the travel which was done in my time. If you have to start education at 9am in a town 3 hours away, you just had to suck it up. I might be required in 3 towns on 3 consecutive days for orientation - each orientation day a full working day. 3 hours between day 1 and day 2 and 2 hours to the next day.
Little wonder I only stayed a year.
i always look at this is two ways, genuine emergencies will happen, things break, need changing etc that are not plannable, in this case, i dont mind.
a lack of resources though, is not an emergency, you are propping up their profits with your lack of renumeration.
TLDR: a lack of resources on your part does not make emergency on my part
Doesn't sound like this was that though, sounds like a normally experienced person could have achieved what was required in the time. In my experience, a lack of resources shows as many many people regularly working 5-10 hours + of over time, even though they are as quick as could be reasonably expected. And this happens in many jobs.
yes, could be the case, however you would think that this would be addressed and training provided so it can be rectified.
Here in Qld a nurse can claim "toil" which is unpaid overtime in the form of "time off in lieu". So when private time is needed, with approval of the employees supervisor, time-off can be taken, for things like Doctors/dentist appointments, or special/extra days leave. The nursing job nearly ALWAYS requires one to work through meal times and shifts rarely end on time. It is the nature of the job. It is always busy.
If you voted for the coalition then feel the pain of aged care cut. Even applied to public hospitals. Less staff on the floor.
dont blame the coalition for the actions of one bastard making a lot of people's lives hell.
It's pretty sad but the only way to change this is to go home on time. Patients will complain to employer and they will either leave that care facility (unfortunately unlikely if rural) or the employer will improve staffing levels.