Home Theatre Room

Albtal on 26/01/2018 - 18:16
Last edited 26/01/2018 - 18:53 by 1 other user

Hi All,

I have a room that i want to turn into the theatre room.

The budget is up to 15k.

I will be installing them all.

The room size 3.3m by 3.1m

Projector Sony - $7,999.00

AV-Receiver Yamaha - $2,499.16 with 20% off

Ceiling speakers Sonance VP62R In-Wall Speakers x 2 - $1,298.00

4K BluRay Player Sony - $580.00

Sony - HTRT5 - 5.1CH HOME CINEMA SYSTEM WITH WI-FI/BLUETOOTH - 550W - $999.00

Total cost will be $13,375.16

What do you think and a size of that room would that be too much? if so can you guys let me know other options.

Electrical & Electronics

Comments

  • Brainwhacker on 27/01/2018 - 12:35

    We are doing a new house with a 4.1 x 3.6m media. Will use the existing Yamaha 7.1 setup and upgrade to a larger wall mounted TV and Xbone. The room will be too small for a projector. I need to do some research on getting the wiring before the builder does the walls and also consider the insulation. Some very good tips above.

  • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2018 - 12:47
    +7

    First I think your budget allocation isn't ideal. From your set up, I guess you're prioritizing video over audio.

    So before you start, let's assume your room is internal dry wall without any insulation. I'm going to assume your orientation is 3.3 for distance, so that means your realistic distance from screen is 2.5m.

    Using popular screen reference (CNet and avsforum) you'll be looking at at 65-80 inch screen size. This precludes the need for a projector. You should consider a 65 inch OLED.
    ~$4,000.

    Sound proofing (not sound treatment) would be worth your while. Assuming ceiling height is 2.4m, and excluding door, you have 28m2 of wall insulation to do. 10m2 of ceiling (just layover from ceiling cavity). Assuming DIY capable - ~$1,000.

    Now comes your sound treatment. Assuming aesthetics isn't a factor (if it is, you budget will go leaps and bounds beyond), decent looking high quality foam and traps will set you back ~$1,000.

    The room size you have isn't large. 5.1 without Atmos is sufficient. Inclusive of an amp and player, you should be spending ~$3,000.

    Don't forget accessories like cables, mounts and cabinetry. $500 of you don't get designer cabinets.

    This set up would allow you to put the volume up a fair bit higher without excessive external noise and internal reverberation. Yes, your screen size may be smaller than you hoped for but 65' at 2.5m isn't too small.

    That brings your total cost to ~$9,500. Happy to discuss details of exact products and specs.

    PS. My closest set up to yours is 5m x 3.5m. seated at 3.5m from screen. 60' used. 7.2 surround. I wouldn't go second sub, and screen size wasn't disappointing. Total set up cost was $4k albeit not 4k OLED.

    • jeeg on 27/01/2018 - 22:48

      Hi mate, I am keen to know more about the sound proofing of the room. There is a double sliding door to my living room connecting to the patio and i would like to sound proof the room so my music listening is not a nuisance to the neighbour. What kind of materials should I look into?

      • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2018 - 08:44

        Are your sliders concealed? (Ie slides into the wall cavity?)

        • jeeg on 28/01/2018 - 10:17

          Sorry mate. Made a mistake. It is double glass door but one leaf is fixed and the other is the slider. But it does not slide into cavity. It slides to be in line with the other fixed leaf.

        • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2018 - 10:29
          +2

          @jeeg:
          Ah okay. Gotcha.

          The walls and ceiling will be done the same way. Sound proofing works on dissipating the vibration (sound proofing) within the materials of the wall as opposed to preventing reflection (sound treatment).

          To sound proof, you'd want mass and air cells. The cheapest way is fibreglass and honestly does a good enough job in casual settings. I use SoundBlock as a reference product but I can often find similar material composition for less.

          You can do high density sprayed insulation but I think it's overkill. If you've done the fibreglass hand packed insulation diligently, most of your sound leak would be through sliders and windows.

          You cannot treat the sliders and windows themselves, unless you want to go double paned. They make heavy "sound proof" curtains (Google will give you all the options) that you can use to shield the door. This will act both to reduce echoing (glass is horrible for sound) and will reduce the sound leak from sliders and windows by a noticeable amount.

          The heavier the curtain the better. Just make sure you use big screws/lugs to keep them up cause a roll for a small window can be up to 5 kilos.

        • jeeg on 28/01/2018 - 13:59

          @tshow: Thanks mate. Very helpful advice. Just so I don't get ahead of myself….will sound proofing the room make the music sound better, worse or the same.

          Interested in the curtain method. Now googling for more information

        • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2018 - 16:50

          @jeeg:
          Sound proofing will not make music better. Sound treatment does.

        • jeeg on 28/01/2018 - 22:02

          @tshow: Thanks. Is it therefore advisable if I do sound proofing of the room first and once that is achieved, do some treatment works to improve the sound?

        • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2018 - 23:09
          +1

          @jeeg:
          Yes because sound proofing requires you to take down the plaster boards and stuff those hollow spaces with insulation material and resealing the walls.

          Sound treatment can be done with some nails, screws and glue. It's all surface treatment.

          Corner bass traps are an absolute game changer.

        • jeeg on 28/01/2018 - 23:39

          @tshow: cheers mate. Great stuff.

  • Chris12345 on 27/01/2018 - 12:49

    You can go the other way if you like and still have a really nice setup far better then a TV. I paid about 1100 for a benq w1080, 250 or so for a decent screen, and maybe a couple hundred for a sound bar. 1500 - 1600 bucks in total! Cheaper then many TV's.

  • ego22 on 27/01/2018 - 12:59
    +6

    ive been in hundreds of homes with cinemas. and they get used about twice a year, because the other room with the big tv is easier to watch on and less hassle. eventually they are either storage or kids rooms.

    • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2018 - 13:07

      I did that once. Overly complicated start up sequence and the very fact it is a dedicated room made it less used.

      Now I have an integrated room (much harder to set up well) but sees a lot more use. Single button startup (via smart remote). Work in progress.

      • pasey25 on 27/01/2018 - 13:13
        +1

        My answer to the complicated start up was a harmony hub and remote. Has easily doubled my use of the room

        • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2018 - 13:24

          Precisely what I'm using.

        • KLoNe on 27/01/2018 - 17:14

          @tshow: Can't believe how well the harmony hub works when setup meticulously.

    • Dave Id on 29/01/2018 - 17:03

      Highly unlikely story.

      No more difficult to start up a PJ.

  • Wallyt99 on 27/01/2018 - 13:18

    Definately get a 70" TV in a room that size. Also your sound system shouldnt be too big.

  • Albtal on 27/01/2018 - 15:30
    -4

    Thanks everyone.

    Went to the Bigpicturepeople.

    The guy gives me an offer of HOLLYWOOD PACK 7 for 17k installed.

    Worth it?

    https://www.bigpicturepeople.com.au/packages/hollywood-packs…

    • Dave Id on 27/01/2018 - 17:37

      Just make sure it all fits in the room.
      Will the front speakers fit under the screen? Prolly not!

    • SBOB on 27/01/2018 - 19:28

      140" screen… in a 3m room

      While good job on looking at better audio systems that size screen is just not going to work in that space unless you like sitting front row at the cinema

      • Dave Id on 27/01/2018 - 20:30
        +1

        My bedroom is about that size.
        120" picture on a beige wall at the foot of my bed is perfect.
        Have the AVR and speakers,however use AKG K712 headphones.Keeps the neighbors happy.

        Full catastrophe in the living room.
        Floor standing peakers galore,AVR with 7 HDMI in,several PVRs,laptop,Bluray,Xbone S.
        Cut that back from 7.1 to 5.1. Just takes up to much room.

    • Efendy on 27/01/2018 - 21:12
      +5

      Yeah, get this kit and spend another 20K for a house extension. I wonder if you actually read the suggestions above?

    • DiscoJango on 27/01/2018 - 22:09
      +2

      how about you go the hollywood pack 9000 and get an imax screen installed with some $19 speakers from the local weekend swap meet.

    • Cusack on 28/01/2018 - 21:29
      +2

      I think it's OTT for that room size

    • vinni9284 on 29/01/2018 - 07:08
      +2

      Good setup however 120" for your room is suffice.

      What I would do is this:

      • Negotiate for a smaller screen 120" from 140" and claim some cash.
      • For that room a 5.2.2 setup is suffice so see if you can tell them to delete the 2 x surround sides and keep the surround rears. Claim some cash.
      • With the savings on the above 2 points aim for a better speaker package. The Paradigms are good, but they are entry level.
      • Get a better Subwoofer. You don't have to buy from them. Look at other retailers. I would aim for a Klipsch R112SW.
      • Aim for at least the RXA2070 if you can. The lesser model receivers are gutless IMO.
      • SONY VPLVW-260ES is an entry level 4K projector and its HDMI would be less than 12Gbps input bandwidth hence 4K gaming will not be recommend. The mighty SONY VPLVW-760ES accepts 18Gbps 4K 60p 4:2:2
      • If gaming is on your agenda, I would opt for the Epson 9300 E-Shift 4K enhancement Projector. You would save $3K from this change. I have the predecessor 9200W and use it for a TV everyday for 2 years. It is awesome! The projector AND lamp has a 3 year warranty.
      • I guess the downside to these HT packages as that they might not be flexible with hardware.

      Nothing beats a HT room when the Subwoofer starts vibrating walls!

      If you are located in Melbourne, there are many stores you can visit.

      • Clef Hifi
      • Audiotrends Ringwood.
      • Klapp hifi
      • Stereophonic.

      I have been to Big Picture People and they are pretty helpful.
      Also Sean from Klapp Hifi is very helpful.

      Cheers

    • ItsMeAgro on 29/01/2018 - 10:17
      +2

      OK, so you're happy to spend a few extra grand to get someone to choose everything for you rather than researching for an hour or two on the internet.

      But why are you going over your original budget when "Hollywood pack" 6, 5 and even 4 are cheaper and all still overkill for your room size…?

    • Ryballs on 30/01/2018 - 13:08

      Translated:

      Thanks everyone. However rather than using any of your suggestions or doing some of my own research, I have instead opted to ask a commission-based salesperson for his opinion. The salesperson recommends I buy a $17k package that is complete overkill for my room size and the opposite of the advice you gave me. I'd already know I shouldn't be buying this if I had read anything you said, but as I haven't, do you think it's worth it?

  • Foxtail on 27/01/2018 - 17:47
    +1

    Have a chat with guys at eastwoodhifi.com.au they sure know HT and always have many specials on offer.

    • freddofrog42 on 28/01/2018 - 18:49

      I would agree 100% with this comment except the OP seems to be in Melbourne….

      • Foxtail on 02/02/2018 - 09:56

        sure, they ship allover OZ I thnk.

  • LUTSlit on 27/01/2018 - 19:40
    -4

    Sony Mu-te-ki

    • Dave Id on 27/01/2018 - 20:21
      +3

      is Japanese for junk.

      • jace88 on 28/01/2018 - 14:44

        It's a different target market. There was a time when I thought the Muteki system was 'fully sick' (sad to say I actually used those words in JB many years ago)..

        • Dave Id on 28/01/2018 - 18:19

          Reckon a lot of newbies look at Mutekis (and Kogan TVs).
          Salespeople know they or another will be making a second sale :)

        • BartholemewH on 29/01/2018 - 22:24

          If you mean it's for an uneducated market, then yes.

        • jace88 on 30/01/2018 - 22:38

          @BartholemewH: I think it's not that they're uneducated, they just have different priorities.

    • vinni9284 on 30/01/2018 - 13:41

      This system is OK for an entry level starters.

      If you can score one from Gumtree Second Hand then it is worth it until you decide what you really want. Sometimes buying a "filler" until you research and figure what you like is worth it.

      On a good day, I have seen one of the later models for $350.

      Cheers

      • LUTSlit on 30/01/2018 - 19:25

        I got a Minto silver muteki 7.2 from gummie for 150 ke$ha. Once I got it home and set it up I was like, what have I done! Luckily a bogan mate was happy to take it off my hands for sale price.

        • vinni9284 on 30/01/2018 - 19:52

          Wow! That's a bargain price!

          Good for you!

          Cheers

  • casho on 27/01/2018 - 20:06
    +6

    Spend a lot more on your speakers. Speakers are lifetime purchases. They don't care about 720p, 1080p, 4k, HDMI2.1. They just connect with simple speaker cables and will keep working for the next 20 years. Spend a heap on those and be done with them for your lifetime!

    • Wallyt99 on 27/01/2018 - 20:13

      I dont fully agree with this - whilst good soeakers generally pass the test of time - speaker needs change. E.g what if the OP moves to an apartment.

      I think sound and vision should be appropriately matched and a really good set of seperates will be overkill for this room size. For home theatre - often small speakers like Klipsch, Bose or the B&W home theatre range with matched sub are the most ideal solution.

      • casho on 27/01/2018 - 20:32
        +2

        I live in an apartment. I don't see the relevance. My speaker choices would still be the same

        • Wallyt99 on 27/01/2018 - 20:44

          E.g - he no longer has a theatre room as one example.

        • casho on 28/01/2018 - 07:58

          @Wallyt99: I see. My setup is in the lounge.

    • diasaha on 29/01/2018 - 09:23
      +2

      It's always better to spend more on speakers, about 50%-60% of total budget on speakers. Remaining split equally on amplifier and tv/projector. I bought my home theater system 10 years ago. Planning on upgrading sometime later this year and I'll just change the amplifier and tv. :-)

      If you happen to move into a smaller place, system can be setup in the lounge room.
      Small speaker can be good, but done have the oomph of floor standing speakers. You cannot feel the music on small speakers :-P

      Good speakers last a lifetime.

  • Wallyt99 on 27/01/2018 - 20:17

    The other point which not many have picked up is that often you get the same amplifier curcuit in lower and amps… Its the other features that you pay more for - e.g 3d, 7.1 , wifi, apple airplay etc.

    I would get a $1000 amp, $2000 speakers, a $4-5000 TV, and whatever player you need - e.g blu ray, chromecast ultra etc. The shop who quoted you the stuff above had NFI to be honest.

  • sraymond on 27/01/2018 - 20:49
    +1

    OP seems to have his heart set on a projector and screen no matter how many posters try to point him towards a tv.

    • ItsMeAgro on 29/01/2018 - 10:18
      +3

      Those posters have probably never owned a projector. Simple fact is, size matters, and his room is not to small for 120 inches. Very obvious to anyone who owns one.

      • vinni9284 on 29/01/2018 - 11:00
        +3

        Totally Agree!

        I have a 4.5 x 4m room with the BenQ W1070 projector with ~ 115" screen and it is fantastic.
        I have Dulux Natural White coloured walls and it works fantastic straight on the wall hence no screen required for me.

        Cheers

    • Zondor on 30/01/2018 - 17:12

      I used to have my home theatre in a room of that size with a 100" Screen and it was superb, although I thin 120 would have been better I would need a short throw projector.

  • YungDaggerDick on 27/01/2018 - 23:24

    Do PS4 pros (or whatever their 4k system is) play 4k Blu-ray?

    • MrFunSocks on 27/01/2018 - 23:54
      +1

      No.

    • jace88 on 28/01/2018 - 14:44
      +2

      Nope. Only Xbox One X and S do out of the mid-life refreshes of the current gen consoles.

  • OzzyOzbourne on 28/01/2018 - 00:07

    The room seems a bit small

    • ItsMeAgro on 29/01/2018 - 10:20
      +3

      A) Not really, mine is smaller and it's fine, just can't fit much more than my own family members in it

      B) What's he supposed to do about it? Spend and extra half mil on a bigger house to satisfy OzBargainers?

  • Sinful on 28/01/2018 - 00:33
    +3

    Good quality reclining seats/chairs? with cup holders?
    My friend has them, I think they are the best things to put in a cinema room.

  • Lancerx on 28/01/2018 - 02:04

    Hate to break it to you, but your room just a little too small for that budget …I had one 4x4 room still think it's too small

    • ItsMeAgro on 29/01/2018 - 10:21
      +1

      Yeah, he should change the room and not the budget /s

  • frozenkuku on 28/01/2018 - 02:09
    +1

    Sony - HTRT5 - 5.1CH HOME CINEMA SYSTEM WITH WI-FI/BLUETOOTH - 550W - is bad
    get a proper floor standing speakers and subs
    do atmos 7.1.4 or 5.1.2

    i prefer Denon AVR-X4400H, same price, but up to u.

    • odc on 28/01/2018 - 04:36
      +1

      Pair the receiver with svs ultras speakers front/centre/rears + svs sb13 ultra sub, wait for another sale on the Panasonic EZ1000 65"(plenty big for 3m viewing distance or move couch TV cabinet closer https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/338234) xbox s or x for multimedia. So many options for $15k budget.

      • frozenkuku on 28/01/2018 - 19:51
        +2

        nah don't get 65'', once move to projector you will never want to go back to TV
        I have 70' TV upstairs never watch it after having 182' inch HT downstairs,

        • frozenkuku on 28/01/2018 - 19:52
          +2

          what i don't really get about op is he is willing to spend good amount of money of projector
          but bought a shit under $1000 soundbar system.

        • odc on 28/01/2018 - 21:17

          How does the image quality of a projector compare to oled? You want to be able to view the image comfortably assuming sitting position would be more like 2.7m with recliner seats/TV cabinet. Projector at that distance might be over doing it for many.
          I got similar room set up for the last 4 years as suggested with 3m viewing on a Panasonic Plasma 60" along with Yamaha receiver, Svs prime 5.1 set up bought second hand from eBay. Approx. cost just a little over $4k all up and is used daily. I suggest if you're going to have kids don't buy piano gloss speakers due to fingerprints, scuff marks. My kids regularly use the sub as a stool, play table but it's one of the beter purchases I've made.

  • snajper on 28/01/2018 - 07:56
    +2

    With second kid on the way, you are wasting your money mate as it will be well out of warranty before you get to use it. I was in the same boat years ago… bought surround sound system big TV etc….with one of the kids sleeping every time I wanted to watch A movie… i ended up selling it few years down the track used twice… with massive loss…ended up getting 1k yamaha sound system and 3k projector that was excellent for the money and more that i needed.

  • windrc on 28/01/2018 - 08:04

    You can also consider an ultra short throw laser projector

    Dell

    • BartholemewH on 29/01/2018 - 22:28

      That Xiaomi UST for $2080 on here the other day seemed good.

      • windrc on 29/01/2018 - 23:37

        Yaa. The xiaomi one is full hd. The Dell is 4k.

    • EnALup on 30/01/2018 - 11:40

      That is on US side. Price will be much more in AU.

  • NuclearWessels on 28/01/2018 - 09:01
    +3

    I don't get why there is a $2500 AV receiver in the budget and a $1000 5.1 sound bar?

  • O15 on 28/01/2018 - 09:11
    +13

    This is the worst list I have ever seen, for anything. $8,000 projector and a $1,000 sound bar??
    Did you throw darts at a catalogue, to come up with this? Whilst drunk?

  • cooni on 28/01/2018 - 09:49

    You have all this nice stuff and then a Sony HTIB? I don't understand. You have budgeted a Bluray player, receiver/amp and speakers. Why have you included a HTIB?

  • UFO on 28/01/2018 - 10:14
    +2

    Small room, forget the $8k projector.

    Actually, these days… forget the projector regardless of room size.
    4K big screens now available that kick the crap of projectors, and don't require a pitch black room to achieve maximum specs.

    Since you have $8k just for visuals get the largest OLED screen you can find, and with the spare change put it towards a huge upgrade in sound quality.
    The SOUND and SPEAKER combo proposed is quite frankly terrible with a $15k overall budget.

  • usmanyousaf on 28/01/2018 - 11:50
    +1

    why not consider Xiaomi Mi Projector…..
    It doesn't look cheap but considering the specs…it is really a bargain.

  • oztite on 28/01/2018 - 11:52
    +2

    I'm just amazed at how many ppl on ozbargain have a home theatre/ extensive knowledge on home theatre. I have a Samsung 40" 10 y.o. LCD TV and I've been pretty happy with it… Feel a bit sorry for myself now haha…

    • diasaha on 29/01/2018 - 09:28
      -1

      Get a THX certified logitech speakers. You will thank me later :-D
      https://www.logitech.com/en-au/articles/7913

      • Zondor on 30/01/2018 - 17:13

        I have this system and it is quite great if you have brick walls.

    • BartholemewH on 29/01/2018 - 22:32

      Remember OzB was originally frequented by tight arsed web dwellers. I had to take a break from trying to shove a 4 player TMNT arcade cab into my office just to type this.

  • Dabbler68 on 28/01/2018 - 12:04

    Tshow made some comments on sound insulation and I agree that is where you should start first. Do you have close neighbours who may get annoyed by the thump of your subwoofer? In that case, insulate the room to reduce the sound escaping. Your kids will sleep better as well.

    Within the room, sound reflects off hard surfaces causing a confused sound. Heavy curtains are a good compromise between price, effectiveness and visual appeal. Cover the walls as well. Even a narrow bookcase along a wall will help a little. If you want to do the job better, do a google search for sound absorbing room images for ideas. Think how noisy a restaurant with hard floors and glass is. You want the opposite.

    Then for equipment I suggest focusing on speakers first with the highest spend from your budget going there. 5.1 is plenty for that size room. I would choose a subwoofer with a 10" driver or bigger and 3 front speakers with minimum 6" drivers.

  • scperfume on 28/01/2018 - 12:10
    +3

    Jus a quick question… I've seen a few people recommend getting a big TV for movies… I've just ditched my PJ setup for a 75" and it is absoloutly terrible for movies…

    Has anyone shifted from PJ to 4kTV and actually been pleased with the results? For Movies?

    Cause right now I'm on the cusp of returning the 75" Bauhn - moives look so so so so so shit. I went around to my friends last night - he had a better Sony 4K HDR tv (lastt years runnout model — sorry didn't get the exact model number) and whilst the issue wasn't as bad, it still was a bit NQR.

    What TV will actually compete with a PJ for the correct movie experience???

    Cheers,
    James

    • birdhouse on 28/01/2018 - 12:30

      This is why I still have my Samsung 59inch plasma in my theatre room. I feel they are still the best for motion and movies. I have heard oled has bridged that gap for bigger screens though. My brother in law got the 65 lg oled so will be interesting to compare to plasma.

      I do have a panasonic 42 and lg 49 4k led lcd in my house and they arent too bad for movies but I would assume a 1080p 75inch lcd would be different due to the size.

      Have you tried turning off every picture enhancement setting on the tv. It's the first thing I do and improves LCDs a lot.

    • Dave Id on 28/01/2018 - 12:49

      TVs are OK as PC monitors on days like today when a black out will damage a PJ's globe.
      PJs also do heat up a room on a day like today. Great in winter though. 220W fan heater.

    • ItsMeAgro on 29/01/2018 - 10:26
      +2

      I don't think there's any doubt that all the TV recommendations in here are a simple reflection of how many people have never owned a projector and have only ever looked at TVs because they simply don't realise how much better (and cheaper!) a projector setup is.

    • Foxtail on 02/02/2018 - 09:57

      We have a Panasonic 65" even FTA looks good.

  • stinkydog on 28/01/2018 - 12:24
    +1

    Highly recommend acoustic panels, bought a box of 20 40cm on eBay for about $60 and music just sounds so much better!

    • birdhouse on 28/01/2018 - 12:30

      Do you have a link. Very interested.

    • pformag on 29/01/2018 - 19:31

      WAF is low with acoustic panels.

      • stinkydog on 30/01/2018 - 01:30

        Hahaha :P
        Convinced my wife to glue fabrics over ours, now we have bling panels with all sorts of designs on them. The fabric cost more than the panels though…
        Superglue does the trick when sticking the fabric to the panels! Because the standard fabric is wide enough to cut down the middle with room to glue to a panel when dealing with 40cm width, you only need to measure one dimension and there is minimal waste.

  • causeimbatman on 28/01/2018 - 13:20
    +2

    On top of everything that have been said, the proper room correction software can work wonders to your room.

    I have been a big fan of Audyssey since I got my first Marantz receiver almost a decade ago.
    Changed to a Yamaha and was not a big fan of their YPAO software.
    Have just upgraded to a Marantz SR6012 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32, and I’m in audio heaven again.

    Not recommending Marantz per se (although I do love their sound), but definitely recommending an Audyssey-equipped receiver.

  • ChaLuo on 28/01/2018 - 13:33
    +7

    Aldi 65" UHD $799
    Logitech Z906 $333
    Laser BD3000 Blu-ray player $99
    Xiaomi mi box $90

    I bet most families with young kids would be satisfied.

    You'll be amazed how awesome these are.. unless you start comparing with what your neighbour or friend has.

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