Lawyers here charge from $300/hr (junior lawyer) to $700/hr (partner) then charge per page to fax, and per minute on the phone etc.
They don’t study as long as doctors but charge much more.
How will people with problems be able to afford that?
In Australia, people have no hope if they are not millionaires or not on Centrelink.
Why Are Lawyers in a Australia So Expensive?
Stephanie360 on 15/05/2018 - 11:46
Last edited 22/05/2018 - 22:14 by 2 other users
Last edited 22/05/2018 - 22:14 by 2 other users
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Basically OP: People charging for professional services when they should be free.
If the problems were simple you would have solved them yourself.
Lawyers get paid to sort out the crap that people could not do on their own.
Unsurprisingly they expect to be paid to do it - and what they earn is generally commensurate with the level of crap they have to deal with.Lots of arm chair lawyers on OzBargain. You should hire one of them.
OzBargain armchair lawyers would have comfortably outperformed the attorney general, solicitor general, shadow attorney general and further legal advice in the 44.1 citizenship palaver. It's an interesting question of who is Australia's highest ranking law officer to give accurate legal advice there.
I'm glad you raised this. The single most important constitutional issue to occur in recent times, the Government relied upon this advice and got burnt big time. I haven't heard whether an investigation occurred into this, but with all the other inquiries called for, surely this actually warrants one? Government solicitors who provided "very strong advice" that the Government had nothing to worry about should no longer be government solicitors.
In regards to the actual post, they do not work in the law, they work in the legal industry, there are way too many of them (law is the new arts degree) and it is highly competitive (cutthroat).
If a matter goes to court, your solicitor will engage an external barrister at your expense, because the court system is a procedural nightmare and barristers specialise in the procedure rather than the law and/or are the better spruikers.
The majority if not all judges are former practicing lawyers. It's just one big grease mill.
There is a need for lawyers, just not so many of them and the system needs to be simplified.
One of the biggest overheads in a law firm, is its marketing budget - says it all really.
barristers specialise in the procedure rather than the law
No, no they dont.
Nah, lets just get the AFP to investigate who 'hacked' Christopher Pyne's twitter account and 'made him' like a gay porn tweet.
(the results came back recently, no evidence of a hack found)
Doctors, at least specialists charge more than most lawyers but the difference is that most of this cost is absorbed by Medicare or private health insurance so people don't notice it.
Most lawyers make something like $120,000, which is not crazy. Although the charge out rates are $300+ per hour it is difficult to capture that.
Some people charge through the nose, and there are areas of law that only companies can afford but for most people as an expense that they are not constantly incurring,it is expensive but accessible as long as you are reasonable.
I just don't think that's true at all - if only because there is such a huge pay gap across the different specialties and levels of seniority. The old boy private specialists I would agree, but there's not that many of them. Most doctors would be on something like $120,000, because most doctors are GP's (and GP's haven't had an increase in the Medicare rebate in years) or junior doctors who are on less than that.
I could be wrong but I'm quite sure I remember reading/hearing that Primary Healthcare was offering fresh GPs $500k upfront + 50/50% split of billings to sign a 5 year contract.
For Primary Healthcare to break-even, that would mean the GP is at least earning $200k per year - and most likely more as no company is aiming to just break-even?
that was years ago when primary was aggressively expanding whilst taking advantage of ATO loopholes which now has been closed. it's like your officework pricematch guarantee. take out the small operators and when you have marketshare and scale that's when you make money.
i'd say the average non-owner gp would be around the 200k mark, bearing in mind there is no superannuation, annual leave, sick leave, LSL maternity leave and indemnity cost etc which is equivalent to ~30% of total pay package
The OP makes a valid point. Lawyers are expensive. More expensive than many other university qualified professionals. And when legal advice and services are so expensive there will be some people who cannot afford it, which in some respects could equal justice denied. The questions I would ask is 1. Why is it so expensive and 2. How can we make it cheaper? I don't think the answer is mandating lower fees or using government subsidies. I believe the answer lies in making changes to the system and removing some of the unnecessary complexity. We could start by looking at
Moving from our current 9 different legal systems to having one national set of laws
Moving from an adversarial system to an inquisitorial one
Having differing state laws is ridiculous. Allot has been down to make laws uniform across states but unfortunately it would require very significant changes to the constitution which would be difficult to achieve. Western Australia is particular have been resistant to joining national schemes, the best example of this is the family law jurisdiction which every other state agreed to vest in the Commonwealth meaning that all family law matters fall with the jurisdiction of federal courts, except for western Australia, they do their own thing over there.
I agree some areas of law would be better as inquisitorial, but that again would require huge changes to the legal system which we inherited from the United Kingdom.
Western Australia and Queensland
Moving from an adversarial system to an inquisitorial one
Not always the best solution.
Well you go to uni for 5 years then practice as a junior lawyer for how long then take office in town at super high rents and lets see how much you would need to charge to get a payback.
Lawyers rates vary quite a lot so best to shop around. The ones in the suburbs are cheaperThat is most professions
Tradies can start getting paid from 16, don’t have to spend 60k on a degree and I’ve never met a tradie who works past 5. It used to be the case that lawyers were paid more but because there are so many immigrant kids who think they have to study, there is a supply/demand of graduates shift.
For those that haven't worked it out yet, Stephanie360 is a troll.
He/she joined just to wind us all up with a post about doctors and now this one about lawyers.
Don't be sucked in and waste your time. Life is too short.I disagree. I think she's raised a valid point.
I expect that there will be many lawyers that would like to dismiss her and attempt to justify high fees.
This post is much better read than those [AMA] posts in Ozb or news.com.au about royal wedding. Bring us more questions Stephanie360 :)
I wanted to my telstra phone cable put underground at my house. I had put in the underground pipe, so all they needed to do was:
1. run the cable ($1/m) for 90m.
2. Dig 1m from their pit to my conduit in sandy soil.
3. Connect the cable to a box ($100)If it wasn't for Telstra forbidding me from doing the work I could have it completed for $200 and maybe 4 hours work.
Telstra Quote: Over $3,000.
I can get lawyers to do the work cheaper at $300/hr.
Reason why it is expensive: because:
1. You need a certificate to do anything these days.
2. Getting a certificate takes time and eliminates competitionLawyers are cheap compared to tradies. I think lawyers should charge more.
Um, you can do all that except for connect to the pit. Or you can use a third party for a quarter of the cost. Telstra (or NBN as they probably own the assets now) purposely have exorbitant prices to deter doing the work themselves.
Can confirm this! what happened in your case skyva?
I'm in VIC, we did underground pipe and coaxial cabling through our nature strip and front yard.
Only Telco/NBN team member did the actual connections at our house and the pit, using our existing cable and piping.
All worked fine with Optus Cable and later Aussie BB NBN (using Telstra infrastructure)
As far as I'm aware, you can't legally roll out any permanent cable which is going to be connected to the power or telephone networks. Some cablers will let you do it yourself and they will connect and certify it, but it's a pretty grey area.
Of course you can, you just can't do the last step - connect\terminate it.
Or maybe tradies shouldn't charge as much …compared to professions where people are actually required to go to school/uni and get a formal education.
So OP previously starts a disgruntled post about doctors being too expensive, now a post about lawyers being too expensive.
We should start a poll to guess what profession OP will be targetting next, let's see…
"Why is breast augmentation in Australia so expensive? They're cheaper in SE Asia"
"Why is my hip replacement so expensive in Australia? Aren't Orthopods just glorified carpenters?"
"Why are strippers in Australia so expensive? They're cheaper everywhere else"
"Why are glasses so expensive in Australia? $200 for two pieces of glass and a cheap frame!?"
Should have gone to specsavers…
am waiting for the OP for why Ozbargain is so expensive
I work at a sole practitioner's office in Sydney CBD, and as a paralegal part of my job is to do the accounting stuff when it's my rostered day and I obeserve how clients are charged and fees calculated, so I just want to clear up a few confusions in case there are any.
Lawyers don't charge for every minute they think about or work on the client's matter. For example, drafting letters and emails to and on behalf of clients is charged, telephoning clients is charged, drafting legal documents is charged. However, if a lawyer spends some time contemplating how best to proceed with your matter, it's usually not charged because it's difficult to quantify and very easy to dispute. In fact, lawyers usually spend more time (though not considerably more) actually working on a matter but only charge for his time when it's easily quantifiable and verifiable by the clients. Invoices will be itemised to list down all details including the date and time and a brief description of the work done.
If you are employing a sole practitioner or a small solicitor's office, the fee you are charged is not indisputable. In fact, where I work at, the lawyer is quite happy to reduce your fees within reason, if it indeed seems a tad bit high for the job done. A payment plan can be set up as well, and it's all negotiable. Remember, if you can't pay, the lawyer loses money. It is in his or her interest to at least recover part of the fee than to lose it all, or having to go to court for a few thousand dollars. Lawyers are humans too, and no human likes to go to court to have a matter resolved. Proceedings and litigation is and should always be the last resort, when a dispute arises.
For general or not-so-complicated legal matters, one could seek help from a range of places and you don't always have to go to an expensive lawyer to resolve your problem. For students there are on-campus free legal counsel, for people from a particular segment of society you could probably find free legal services for that group, for example juveniles, wives being domestically abused, tenants, those being sexually assaulted, the homeless, etc. If you don't belong to any of the groups it's fine too. You could always go to a local community legal centre. I know for a fact that the solicitor at Redfern Legal Centre works closely with University of Sydney's free on-campus legal counsel to solve problems for students, especially international students.
One only needs to go to a solicitor if they have a really complicated matter that can't be easily resolved and lots of stake is involved. Usually, when such matters are concerned, lawyer fees will generally be the least of worries for clients. When people pay such a high fee to lawyers they also expect a high level of professional knowledge and conduct, and they place a lot of trust in their legal counsel to be able to solve their problems satisfactorily. For this, legal practitioners including people like myself who's only a paralegal and working part time when doing my law degree experience high levels of stress and anxiety when working because I understand the implications of making mistakes. I guess that is part of the reason why lawyers charge a high fee for their services.
thanks for this detailed insight! glad to learn something worthwhile after clicking this troll post :)
So what the OP is saying is that plumbers are more expensive than lawyers and doctors?
Would be good for the doctors and lawyers to set up some kind of reciprocal agreement
Neither charges the other fees
Blame ambulance chasers. They have to charge extra for losing those "no win no fee" cases which still cost them money. Allowing lawyers to advertise their services has led to an explosion in insurance premiums and therefore the cancellation of many fetes and festivals who cannot afford the insurance. We've now become a litigious society as no-one will except that shit happens and wants to blame someone, encouraged by lawyers advertising "Have you been injured in an accident?"
I believe you're mistaken.
Lawyers rarely "lose" those "no win, no fee" cases. Why would a law firm pick up a case that they are not confident on getting a higher expected return on their "investment (time spent dealing with the case)"? A lot of those no-win, no-fee litigation cases settle out of court because it is not beneficial for the defendant to continue the case in court (ie, the cost of lawyers for the defendant is going to be more than what the agreed out of court settlement will be). The "no-win, no-fee" law firms often continue until the out-of-court settlement amount for the plaintiff is a certain % of what the no-win-no-fee law firm wants, of which the plaintiff's lawyers will recommend (ie, force) the plaintiff to accept; should the plaintiff wish to continue, then the no-win-no-fee law firm will no longer provide the no-win-no-fee guarantee, and the plaintiff will risk losing out if they continue. The no-win-no-fee law firm then takes a whopping % of the winnings (I've heard of 50% or even greater).
The only true winners out of these litigation cases are the law firms.
Unlike doctors, who theoretically are meant to abide by the Hippocratic oath, lawyers don't have such an equivalent (to my knowledge).
Based on my understanding above, I believe high lawyer costs are just simply greed.Source - I'm not a lawyer nor in the law industry, I could be wrong - the above is merely my experiences in a public hospital system hearing about litigations against hospitals.
Though I'm adding fuel to the troll OP by raising more issues/opinions with this post :(
Unlike doctors, who theoretically are meant to abide by the Hippocratic oath, lawyers don't have such an equivalent (to my knowledge).
Overarching obligations in Vic.
Zeggie's statement is so wrong it hurts.
But they are just fighting for what's fair… :(
Just a correction - undergrad law degrees are as long as med degrees, 5-6 years.
At least in Sydney, undergrad Med school can be 5 years (WSU) or 6 years (UNSW). 4 years if it's a post grad degree (USYD etc, +at least 3 years undergrad).
I think JD law programs are 3-4 years, with part time options too (Not possible in med) .Sibling who is a lawyer and works very long hours with NO overtime pay, starting work at 8-9 am, and sometimes home by midnight (international clients calling in for meetings late in the night, but still have regular day time local clients in the morning too). Suddenly a regular day becomes 14hrs…
So like an engineering job, but 6x the pay.
hhaah not x6 pay.
Engineers - go into IT!
Not everyone in IT makes $100k+. It's a myth. Check how many struggle to even find a job. Most IT jobs are contractual anyway.
"Why Are Lawyers in a Australia So Expensive?". It's not just lawyers, everything in Australia is expensive except for Chinese imports. If it cannot be outsouced to China, you will be ripped off big time whenever you have to pay an Australian to do anything. One example: The Queensland government whacks a 47% 'stealth tax' on the electricity it sells to retailers.
If you have ever watched any dull of the American real-estate shows, the first thing you notice that larger & better houses on larger blocks of land are available for much lower prices than in AU (Californication excluded). Money just goes much further in the US. Americans own more 'stuff' and newer stuff than people in Australia or Western Europe.
There is a lot of hidden cost in everything these days.
I think Stephanie should make a post on the Government - we could actually see all the programs we are subsidizing (fuel subsidies to mining companies, etc, etc, ad infinity) - I think we would all be gobsmacked.
In fact lets not do it…
what you need is a Chinese imported lawyer. Will charge you 10 bucks an hour with a guaranteed win even though you wont be able understand a word he says.
Americans own more 'stuff' and newer stuff than people in Australia or Western Europe.
So true. Why is that do you reckon?
Americans pay less tax and believe in low regulation to decrease company costs. It’s clear that the closer Australia verges to socialism, the worse off everyone who works is.
When everything is expensive, why do you expect lawyer to be not? Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
Your argument is baseless. If everything is expensive, why does a pizza delivery person get only $10-$12 an hour? Shouldn't they be expensive too? Why does a graduate position offer only $35k-$40k/ year? Shouldn't every profession be expensive in the same proportion? Why only doctors and lawyers?
Stephanie360 was going to sue her doctor for keeping her in the waiting room too long, until she realised how expensive it was…
hahahaha.
As much as private obstreticians !!
Legal service is expensive because it is worth it!
However, there should be a split between legal advice/service and not-so-legal ones (taking phone call, attending to email, filing this, copy that etc..)
I guess the key is to build a relationship with the lawyer and negotiate a combo deal for the whole matter (instead of PAYG).I've been mocking around with Migration Law for the last 2 years and it costed me a brand new Golf GTI already :(
Ouch….
I guess its hard to quantify an outcome, so they make up for it by billing calls, etc.
If anyone here is every unhappy about their bill, request an itemised bill (within 30 days).
It will detail out why they set the cost to that much, and what they did to substantiate it. Note that they can then increase their bill if it turns out the itemised bill is higher than their previous estimate [If stated in their cost agreement/disclosure statement].
This is an example of an itemised bill http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/40224…
If you are every unhappy, the Cost Agreement and Disclosure Statement will tell you the initial steps you can take to dispute anything about your retainer.
Always put it to a cost assessor.
That link is NOT an itemised bill. It's a bill of costs which a completely different thing. Your lawyer will not give you something that looks like this.
These are generally drafted in federal or fed circuit court proceedings to substantiate costs incurred and ensure the most efficient\cheapest method was implemented for various works throughout the matter.
Notification of rights attached to your invoice will explain your rights. You can request an itemised bill, and if still unsatisfied have your bill assessed (in VIC at least) before the Supreme Court or the VLSC.
And to add insult to injury, if you email or call them about THEIR mistakes they will still charge YOU!
It's an industry where the all involved benefit from longer more complecated laws and procedures. So given enough time the process gets larger, more time consuming and more expensive. It benefits all involved.
The big dogs who nake the processes more conplecated and costly prob benefit the most.
Better call Saul
Why is anything in the world set at the price it is. Supply and demand. If you don't like it don't buy it.
Nothing like being charged hundreds of dollars for a pro forma document that they've used for decades…
You crazy. You were fighting against doctors last week, now you trying to defend them with the cost of a lawyer.
Next week: Why are psychologists so expensive…
Admittedly I cannot afford a lawyer. So had I were in serious grieving, I would rely on the most primitive way to resolve problem. Anyone with me?
Most primitive way… Fap?
Where do I sign up?
Wait… Nvm… :-)
I don't think lawyers bulk bill…
I’m sure lawyers would love for the government to start paying them so you could see them as many times as you want and get sub par service.
If majority of citizens feel that lawyers are too expensive in the country, why don't the authorities just increase the number of seats for law degrees in universities to some extent? Not saying that they should increase the seats by 30 times though.
there was a massive expansion of Law Degree places from the 1980s - where there were more law students than practising Lawyers - having lots of lawyers really makes the world a better place with more regulation and more litigation…..
The massive expansion/ supply that you're referring to doesn't seem to have helped affordability crisis for law services though. Have they got any cheaper?
Lawyers know what a zerosum game its in their mutual interests to keep costs high…if they are community minded they do legal aid and pro-bono work
The vast majority of law graduates never end up working as lawyers because there are far too many university places.
Stephanie360 why don't you cut to the chase and just ask why Australia is so expensive
- answer Australia is one of the richest countries in the world - it has a massive Trade Surplus with China $180 Billion last year - Investing in Australia is used as a proxy for investing in China but substantially lower risk- Credit Suisse Research Institute states Australia has the highest median wealth in the world and the second-highest average wealth per adult in 2013.
Petrol is a lot cheaper than Europe though…
Higher wealth in form of real estate doesn't help, particularly when it is concentrated within only some portion of the society. What about disposable income? What about access to/affordability for luxury, better lifestyle, better/ bigger houses, expensive gadgets/ cars and expensive holidays? The US wins hands down on all those aspects as someone else has mentioned above too.
You are describing the US prior to the Global Financial Crisis
In my humble opinion, the US did some important things fundamentally right and that alone won't let them down ever irrespective of other issues like politics, recession, etc. We have something to learn from them and of course we've done better in some aspects. I think that we failed to invest (or use wisely) the mining money from boom days in the right way though. You should read about how Norway used their money from the good days to secure the future of citizens.
Anyway, the US excelled very early on in these two areas and that has helped them tremendously and continues to do so. Their policies in these areas run in auto-pilot mode. Their unis continue to produce the best quality output in all areas - be it research, entrepreneurship, jobs creation, etc.
1) Strong focus on quality innovation, research, education, attracting top quality global talent and tech entrepreneurship
2) Infrastructure - public infra, tech infra, business/economic infra, etc.Its economy is doing extremely well despite the housing bubble/ recession that it faced. It's still the largest economy in the world. Most of the fortune 500 companies are still based there. Lifestyle of people haven't worsened. Inflation is still pretty low and affordability is still very high. I don't understand what makes you believe that 2010 recession has changed people's lifestyle or income in the US.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/news/economy/recession-anniv…
According to the above report there has been a recovery but household wealth in the US is around 40% down from pre GFC.
The Chinese and the South Koreans have the same playbook and in lots of sectors are world leaders e.g. south korea consumer electricals, semi-conductors - china solar energy - high speed rail - electric buses - commercial drones
95% of the wealth is held by 5% of the people.
$300 to $700? Where are you finding these lawyers? It's easy to find an experienced lawyer who will do work for 'only $250'
I have to say it is entertaining to watch all the lawyers on here trying to either divert attention or justify their fees, which are frequently too high, knowing full well that the average Australian has no choice but to engage with the legal profession on the lawyers terms and none other.
And I’m sure you’re one of these average Australians, an underdog going up against the big mean lawyers. Please, you’re probably a tradie who in any other country wouldn’t be able to afford a bed.
Doctors just seem less 'expensive' because Medicare is much more freely available than Legal Aid.
The money you pay overwhelmingly ends up with the partners. Many lawyers never break 100k p.a and I'd imagine the average graduate these days enters the profession with about 6 years of tertiary education on average (by necessity, usually having undertaken another undergraduate degree, masters and/or honours).
Lawyers provide more charitable (probono) work than any other profession by a significant margin.
The average solicitor in AU earns slightly over half of what the average GP earns. The latter can usually earn more in rural areas whereas the former can expect sizeably less.
If you're not brilliant enough to find relevant paid work during your degree to build up experience and secure a graduate role, you usually need to settle for volunteer roles, unpaid placements and pay for the 6-12 months of the graduate diploma that is necessary for admission out of your own pocket.
Unlike in medicine, where university spots much more closely align with the available jobs, only the very brightest law students will ever find a paid, FT job as a lawyer. Many lawyers outside the mid- and large-size firms where the cream of the crop tend to settle never break 100k pa.
The gruelling work hours, intense competition, fact that you're paid to look for and ward against worst possible outcomes, that your work if not transactional is constantly oppositional, and the low hourly pay mean that an estimated 2/3 of the profession feature major depressive symptoms.
If you want to find a worker who is overpaid given education, experience and hours worked, find a construction site, strip club or escort agency.
Here is something very ridiculous! …
I engaged in a lawyer, and on his fee disclosure statement it listed things like
Senior Lawyer $550
Junior Lawyer $350
Other admin $80
blah blah blahI signed his retainer, he was senior lawyer, fair enough. Then guess what .. he was charging me $550 for admin, document prep basically everything was $550. So when I questioned it, I realized he was a one man show! Now the case is with Legal Commissioner!~
you think lawyers are expensive? try not using one, and see how much it costs you :P
my wife's a property & commercial lawyer, i've seen some horrible shit-shows (on the other side, obviously) where people have used bad lawyers or conveyancers who don't know what they're doing and lost their house deposit as a result. $1000 to do all the legals on a house is a cheap price to pay when you've got a $100k deposit on the line, is it not?
if you really want to get your rant on about professions that charge an arm & a leg and do sweet FA… go have a look at real estate agent commissions.
I used a IP lawyer a few years ago (he owned his own small business).
$400 a hour… Was worth it… Couldn't really afford it but it fixed the problem.
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If you became a lawyer we could kill two birds.. cheaper legal advice and you might be able to afford a non-bulk billing GP.