Hi,
My wife had a tooth ache so we got it checked ($50) and were told that since it requires one more xray ($50) she'd have to make another visit.
However, based on the current visit she was provided an "Initial Estimate" of $4000+ for root canal.
Compared to the country we're from, its an absolutely horrific figure! So just thought i'd ask the ozbargain community how they save on dental issues. Is 4k a realistic amount for a root canal?
I'm based in East Melbourne.
Thanks!
How much is your insurance if you don't mind disclosing that?
That will be an extra with PHI and not standard cover
I had a root canal done a few weeks ago for $1k all up (don't have PHI).
Wow, that's a good price!!
Are you happy with the job?
Cheers
Yes and no.
I'll start with no. After an initial consultation I was offered an extraction (~$150 then and could do an implant later for a few thousand!) or a root canal treatment for around ~1k. Previously I had a root canal done with them with PHI and got a crown where I was out of pocket only a few hundred for the root canal + crown. When emailing the receptionist a few days later I got in writing that I would get the root canal + crown for $1k all up. I jumped on it as I was aware that it was a very reasonable price.
After the 2nd treatment it was obvious that I wasn't going to be getting a crown for that price. I didn't want to bring it up with the dentist before it was all done (insert a Curb Your Enthusiasm like reason here) so I asked at the end when the metal band would be taken off and the crown put on. He informed me that there must have been a miscommunication between himself and the receptionist as I had in writing that I would get the crown included in the price.
Now that it's about a month later, I really don't care that I didn't get the crown as the tooth is so far back that even when I put the cheesiest fake grin on my face to expose every tooth - it's barely noticeable. It's not noticeable at all with a normal smile. I did have to go back after a week to get the metal band ground down a little as it was cutting into the back of my tongue, but once that was sorted I have no idea it's there now and no pain. Which is all I could have asked for.
Sorry for the wall of text!
Compared to the country we're from, its an absolutely horrific figure!
Are you earning a similarly horrific amount here in Australia compared to your home country?
No, but I don't pay the same tax there either. Anyway, I didn't want to get into my country vs australia debate. I love Australia. I just mentioned it for comparison's sake.
yikes
Logged in just to neg you.
JIMB0 was mentioning something for "comparison's sake" as well. You can't choose to compare what you like, and not compare what you don't like. That's called hypocrisy.
Maybe, maybe not.
Many countries, for example in the EU, have not persued the USA neo-Liberal agenda of privatising everything because the wealthiest entities on the globe pays the government to do this so that they become wealthier at the expense of the countries population.
For some reason Americans complain about socialism whilst maintaining that socialist Europe is a really nice place where everything works and people are happier than in the USA.
Some of the strongest economies in the world such as Germany operate under socialist regimes. One example of this is legislation requiring every business larger than 2 million Euros to have 50% WORKER representation on the board. German workers are paid very, very well and their economy is booming.
This is occurring while our own Government is systematically stamping out mere Unions, let alone socialist economic policies, and there has not been pay increases in real terms for over two decades because we followed the USA ideology of screwing everyone to make a few wealthiest entities even wealthier.
To be clear this is occurring because votes are going to the Liberal and Labour parties.
So who should we vote for next? :P
Me:)
Sustainable Australia
Clive palmer
"For some reason Americans complain about socialism whilst maintaining that socialist Europe is a really nice place where everything works and people are happier than in the USA"
broad brush approach, simply not true.
Socialism? Last I checked all those European countries are capitalist democracies with social safety nets (same as Australia). FFS Angela Merkel is even a moderate 'conservative' in the same way that Malcom Turnbull is (I don't believe either are conservative though, their parties are just conservative in name only).
Diji needs to look to Venezula if he wants to see actual socialism. Yeah, Polio has come back because the country can't even pay for vaccines (or be seen as accepting foreign aid to make the governemtn look bad) let alone their workforce.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-polio-comeback-venezu…
It reminds me of the time Diji piped up in a thread I made about a water company ripping me off and blaming Lib/Lab for selling off state assets - not realising that South East Water is a Victorian State owed and run company.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/376839
The guy is off his rocker and often has no idea what he talks about (just wants to rile up people that are not educated), a perfect example of the type of person who advocates for socialism.
@c0balt: off the top of my head extreme poverty is around 90% and there's 36 million people in Venezuela. Socialism has killed over 100 million people on this Earth, it's pure evil.
It's what has happened everytime when you put socialist victim enablers into power rather than those who advocate for personal responsibility. That is, everyone in actual socialism becomes a victim of the state and won't even have the opportunity to better themselves as they don't exist (meritocracy is incompatible with socialism).
Socialist regimes are authoritarian (they all rely on secret police). Facism and Socialism are both totalitarian, you ever heard of the National Socialist Party?
Freedom is the ethos in contrast to socialism or fascism totalitarianism, have you never played Civ5 :P
@thevofa: An extremely misguided comment vofa. Socialism is destructive, controlling and corrupt and has never worked and will never work.
The "socialist" republics that guide your opinion on what socialism is were/are about as socialist as the current Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic. They're just names with no meaning used by totalitarian regimes.
If you want to critique socialism that's fine, but how about critiquing actual socialist thought/theory/praxis rather than pointing your finger at some maniac who would use any available political edge to realise his violent ends. Ie: know WTF you're actually critiquing before you do.
"but how about critiquing actual socialist thought/theory/praxis"
I'd rather look at the 100 million people that were killed by socialism so we never make the mistake again. Having said that let's take a quick look at Karl 'spread the wealth' Marx who died with copious amounts of money. He also and massive anger issues and an utter hatred for most people. Oh, i almost forgot, he had an illegitimate child with his maid and then cast them out on the streets.
Just a gentle reminder, there is no need to swear in a debate, it's rather rude.
You have just ranted insubstantively again, and then pointed the finger at someone again - you really have no idea how to critique socialism itself. Maybe read a book or even Wikipedia article about it. Ciao.
@thevofa: I'm stating facts that have verified by hundreds of qualified professionals, perhaps they were ranting as well? I've read plenty of documentation over the years and continue to do so. Socialism is a filthy disgusting disease and we need a cure. We also need a extra large vessel to catch all the liberal tears.
Can you point to anywhere in history to prove that socialism has worked?
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: Socialism is a great idea until it's put into practice. Unfortunately, humans in general aren't wired for it. The tenets of Christianity are a great idea. Has anyone ever done a head count on how many people have died or suffered at the hands of 'devoted' Christians? BTW, I'm not anti-Christian :-)
@Ozpit: It would be interesting to do a head count for all religions, not just Christians. perhaps then a breakdown of each denomination of all religions to really get to the bottom of it.
@c0balt: I don't even know what socialism MEANS anymore - Americans think we are commie af for our universal healthcare. I really like Medicare but I couldn't tell you the name of a single socialist theorist.
This is as good a place as any other to start:
Most often socialism is seen here through post WW2 Western blinkers and hearsay - as evidenced above by comments which speak nothing of socialism but of the deeds of authoritarian regimes. (socialism vs capitalism) is perpendicular to (authoritarianism vs libertarianism/anarchism) - see this
Do this if you want to learn about yourself - you can compare yourself with Gandhi / Hitler / Thacher / Stalin.
but how about critiquing actual socialist thought/theory/praxis
That's all hypothetical. I can give you hypotheticals about ideal worlds filled with unicorns and rainbows too. Practically, all socialist governments have become (if not started out as) authoritarian regimes which have led to the deaths of millions through either mismanagement or deliberate killings of dissidents and the opposition.
Uhh, Venezuela isn't socialist… That government likes to parrot that line for populist reasons, but capital accumulation drives their economic activity, the majority of businesses/enterprises are privately-owned & profit-driven, and the country still operates under a wage-labor relationship. The country is undeniably a mixed economy.
I've never understood why so many people (on both sides of the debate) sprout this sort of rubbish when they clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's embarrassing to read this chain of comments - so much ignorance on both sides…
@c0balt: The "socialism" in National Socialism is not what is referred to by common usage of "socialism" or analogue of a Socialist State.
National Socialism (the organising & economic principles of Hitler) were to bend finance & capital to national needs. To have markets & private enterprises serving them but not allow finance & greed to take over the economy. Doing so enabled the German people to have the highest standard of living and the greatest improvement in standard of living during a time of global poverty.
It produced the national highway network in Germany, some of the first universal healthcare in the world & mandated worker holidays.. all without unions.
Socialism is a system that abhors private markets, private enterprise and private capital. They are not analogues in any way.
You may hate National Socialism but do so based on what it was, not a propagandised and mistaken version of it.
@Tyrx: While Venezuela may not be text book socialist (such a thing is not possible in reality anyway) it was doing its best to be as socialist as possible. Its becoming more socialist tanked its economy just as it has in every other nation that has taken on the "process" of becoming socialist.
Note China under Mao and the devastation wrought vs its moves to a more National Socialist/Mercantilist/Capitalist system (not Communist/Socialist) and the boom it has experienced since.
@c0balt: Ah, Venezuela, the gift to socialism-bashers that keeps on giving. Unlike Bolivia:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/…
No are missing the context within American politics. "Socialism" isn't communism, its basically anything that isn't pure market forces, at least when American talk about it.
The poster is correct, you are just missing the context.
You are mistaking communism with socialism.
Many different types of socialism are possible, just only the crappy communism has been used.
You are incorrect. Venezuela isn't communist, it's full on socialist and it's become a totalitarian dictatorship. Absolutely insane to see people here argue that it's not a socialist country when the leftist dictatorship that runs the country calls themselves The United Socialist Party of Venezuela.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Venezuela
Just like every single far left government with socialist grassroots, it's ended up as a ruthless dictatorship where a small elite political class rules over the majority populace. There is no such thing as a socialist utopia. It's been tried many times and has always ended tragically the same way. The destruction of the wealth for everyone but the elite, and a funelling to the extreme top. If people think it's been bad in Western Capitalist societies, the inequality in places like Venezuela where you can compare the political elite to the middle class who don't even have cars or food. Humans will always fallible regardless of the merits of an idea. The merits of socialism will always be at the mercy of human greed.
"Originally allowed to be shown in the Soviet Union in 1948 because of its depiction of the plight of people under capitalism, it was subsequently withdrawn because audiences were noticing that, as shown in the film, even the poorest Americans could afford a car.[15]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath_%28film%29
In socialism, everyone becomes worse. It's why it's only attractive to people that are not well off, and those who are very well off but want to virtue signal to those around them that they are aware of the struggles of the lowest in their societies.
It's why Lefist Socialism has never worked, never will, but continues to be attractive to those who lack personal responsibility and education/skills to better their own life. It's attractive to those who feel they lack something that they themselves can't/don't want to fix, and always will be attractive to people who want others to fix their problems rather than being proactive in fixing their own problems.
No countries in Western Europe "operate under Socialist Regime". At most they are democratic republics, with capitalist economies, which just happen to have strong social welfare policies.
Also using Germany as an example is just cherry-picking. Look at France, Greece, Portugal, etc. All same Western European countries with similar social welfare policies… and all three of these are struggling economically. In fact, France is struggling so badly they're currently in the process of weakening employee rights laws.
Maybe they need to weaken their employee rights laws when they work 35 hour weeks and go on strike half the year…
Welfare states work well in small homogenous, high IQ countries with strong work ethic. What is the % of Germans with an IQ sub 90? What about America? This is relevant because modern economies have very little use for low IQ individuals yet these people do exist. (This is not controversial in academic research, link between IQ and income within countries and between countries is well established).
Note: the German government, Sweden and the UK (& its vaunted NHS) are all facing massive financial trouble with a huge welfare burden increase owing to immigration policies that drop the homogeneity (& mean IQ) of their nations.
The trouble with socialism is somebody has to pay for everything. When tough times come & taxes are raised, & when the welfare state necessarily increases this causes capital flight which leaves a devastated & impoverished people.
Also note that owing to progressive policies Germany faces future civil war, exists as a repressive and tyrannical state to suppress dissent (anybody who objects to their demographic replacement is jailed) and is already experiencing mass rape & crime and will not exist as a cohesive state if progressive policies are maintained.
TLDR Before you crow about the benefits of socialist states (which Germany isn't, it is a capitalist regime with a welfare system, not socialist) and its applicability to non-homogenous countries pay greater attention to the trajectory of the welfare systems you mention and how they are transforming with a changing population.
Margaret Thatcher once said that “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
Margaret Thatcher is the last person anyone should be quoting for policy advice.
Talking about wealth the CFMEU are quite wealthy. Is the ALP going after their own I think not!
Liberals/Nationals look after their own interests as much as the ALP. The only difference is that under the coalition those getting a break usually pay taxes where unions pay no tax (so no contribution to the ABC, infrastructure, education or health the things that Labor hold so dear to their hearts).
lol @ socialist Europe. Firstly you're wrong, secondly, it has been proven time and time again that socialism does NOT work on a large/modern populations.
what's the meaning of this comment? I'm thinking you're implying that OP makes so much more money in OZ than their home country so they should pay a horrific amount for dental work. ? pointless.
Getting quality dental work in Thailand is about 25% of the cost in Australia. The average Australia makes more than 4 times the average Thai person.
A meal at a restaurant in Thailand costs $2, one in Australia costs $12, is a $12 meal horrifically expensive?
But yes I accept dentists are much more expensive than they need to be but you cannot get cheap dental work if the average dentist salary is north of $250,000p.a., the weekly rent on their clinic into the thousands and their staff also on good wages. You could get cheaper dentistry if we graduated more, there was increased competition & less dental/doctor association control & input and their salary range was more appropriately in the $90,000~150,000 bracket.
Note subsidising fees and still keeping those costs mean that you are still paying the same price even if it is coming out of your (now higher) taxes rather than on the day.
If the OP makes so much more money in OZ, then OP's dentist should make so much money as well, wouldn't you think? Or would you think everyone else should earn less than the OP. Also, what is a "horrific amount"? The amount that was quoted to the OP sounds about right. He has an option to ring around and get quotes to go with the cheapest option, but there's nothing horrific about charging $4K for a dental surgery.
There's also the more reasonable option of having an extras insurance which might have brought down the out of pocket to something like $1.5K, but of course that seemed to not have struck the OP either and it's somehow collectively Australia's fault as things are horrifically expensive here to people like the OP.
Back here in the normal world, immigrants like me find this to be a beautiful country where everyone gets to earn and live reasonably well.
Very sad how you're being lynch voted for asking a very valid question. As an immigrant myself, I think this question is deeply meaningful. I mean, I don't quite get the mentality behind migrating to a new place and not adapting to the culture. If I am not going to whine about a higher pay, and label it as a "horrific figure", then I surely am adopting double standards by complaining about cost of living.
I'm consider Australia my home now, and I will earn and spend with the norms that are applicable to this land. I just want to put it out here just so it's clear that educated people who immigrate into this country (and/or other countries) are not all hypocritical like the one who's started this thread. To hell with politically correct people, mate.
Now, bring on the negative votes.
I paid $1000 in Sydney - dentist with 25 years experience.
25 years experience
Was it really 25 years of experience or 1 year experience repeated 25 times. Lol, just kidding!
Hi mate, do you mind sharing the dentist's details? Thanks
Roots always cost you
Esp. if you are are the one getting rooted!
This is 'Straya mate!
Where we should all have been dentists/doctors or lawyers cos if we sucked at any of those we'd still be able to make it big as a politician (and continue to get away w repeated failures)
Grab a Cebu Pacific flight, have it done in Manila and enjoy a mini holiday.
Hello,
Can you recommend any dentists in Manila?
Pm sent
I've done that to my daughter…. Saved me about $2500 Aussie dollars
Is taking a trip back home an option? you could get a holiday and also get the teeth fixed in that one trip. You may have friends or family who would know a reputable dentist. Dental work can be quite expensive - unfortunately that is what the market is like. Like others have suggested, having private health limits some of the damage. You would still be out of pockets as it may not cover everything.
I would shop around. That price does seem high. Although I had mine does ages ago. Still inflation couldn't mean its gone that high. Could it be that you dont have health insurance so they ramped up price.
Requiring a root canal usually means that the tooth infection has been left for a while and painfully ignored. I have done this myslef when I was young and the expensive root canal treatment was a wakeup call. It never gets better by itself.
So 20 20 hindsight is to have regular checkups which are reasonably well covered by private if you go to their preferred locations. Get toothaches checked out asap as a filling is cheap. Get an electric toothbrush too.
Some places will do payment plans.
Not necessarily true. I needed a root canal and there was no dental pain I was ignoring.
It was a shit tooth tho - previously had a crappy dentist do a filling on it and left the nerve exposed. Had to go back to get that fixed and then it was fine for ~10 years.
I dispute that too. I had a root canal and I saw the dentist as soon as I was experiencing any pain at all.
Not always. Some people like myself who have poorly formed enamel develop cavities very fast, and despite going to the dentist very regularly and whenever I have pain, I'm already up to my second root canal at the ripe old age of 30.
I got mine done in Darwin about 4 years ago. Cost me 1.5k including X-rays. 4k seems quite high.
I'm based in East Melbourne.
Do you mean 3002, or just Melbourne East in general? Treatment in that particular postcode will certainly be above average in costs, as rent in the area is astronomical.
As a dentist, I'm limited to how much advice I can provide here on a general forum so I'll keep it brief and general in nature.
Front teeth are usually cheaper to treat than "back teeth" as there are (usually) fewer nerves per tooth. Check if your quote includes a final "filling" or "crown" as a full crown alone can range from $1500+.
Depending on whether or not you have a health fund membership and which particular health fund , that will also determine whether the clinic will apply certain preferential rates. One of my clinics (west side) has arrangement with 8 health funds, the other clinic (east side) only 2. I often get asked "Why don't you apply to be a preferred provider for xxxx health fund" - the standard answer is nowadays health funds are not accepting any more clinics into any preferred provider arrangements. Topic for another time.
Finally, root canal treatment is very difficult to quote costs on. There are many expected complications which can't be factored into an initial quote, but can only be discussed in the initial consultation to obtain informed consent.
Good luck! :)
Why aren’t health funds accepting any more preferred clinics?
4K! That's nearing the cost of an extraction followed by an implant. It better be some artisanal crown being made.
I had one recently done for $1k in South Melbourne that required 2 treatments. I didn't get a crown on that one as it was the tooth infront of the wisdom in the upper back, so I have a metal band around it instead.
I don't have PHI, so I negotiated the price with the clinic beforehand (have been going there for many years). I had a root canal and crown previously done with them (tooth was closer to the front so wanted a nice crown) with PHI and was out of pocket only a few hundred from memory (was a long time ago).
Go to a different dentist for a second opinion. I just went to a new dentist who told me I needed a simple filling, then after about 30 minutes of grinding into my tooth said I would need a root canal costing thousands of dollars. I had no issues with my teeth before that and felt like he was extorting me! I went back to my old dentist who fixed up the damage done by my first dentist for $40 out of pocket (I have Bupa private health).
was the new dentist a "BUPA" one?
Root Canal itself will cost around $1500 - $2000
The crown afterwards depending on the material, can cost from $1000 - $2500
So 4k+ is most likely root canal plus the crown.
But do some research, some orthodontists do root canal plus crown for less than $3000. There is also options to go with laser root canal which can be done in one visit instead of the traditional 3 - 4 visits. and its painless.
I've never paid more than a few hundred for a root canal…and I've had a few. Surely these people saying $1000 must have had a crown as well?
Or put it this way for comparison, my dentist is currently into me for about 5K, that is for a transplant and includes the extraction and all other costs except for a CT scan to check bone density. So 4K (or even 1K) to simply do a root canal and fill it is way OTT IMO.
Like any procedure, if it is done correctly and has a survival rate that is within your expectation, it is worth it. You know what youre going to be billed and if you get what you've signed up for, it's all good.
If it isnt done correctly and fails a few years later, it isn't worth it even if it was free.
Go to Dandeonog and a house dentist. Will do it for $200. Kidding. You might find all your other teeth gone as well. Sounds like 4k is about right for East Melb prices. if with crown. Might be worth checking out the burbs for a dentist that does it.
If you are from one of the South Asian countries thrn best bet is to get it done there. unless you get some thing done for less than 1k which is your travel cost.
I paid around $1K for a root canal a few years back. It was considered a failure after a few months, so the tooth was pulled. At least the dentist didn't charge extra for the extraction.
I have no idea what the failure rate is for root canal work. And I guess that, as with most professionals, whether it be a mechanic or a dentist, some are better than others and simply do a better job. But if the root canal fails, you don't get your money back.
Mate, as you have seen from other posts, the average going rate for a root canal is around $1K. I would get at least one other quote. Note that there may be exceptional circumstances in your wife's case, necessitating additional costs above the norm.
Thanks. I didn't know about it, but after researching I can say that's it's a bunch of holistic crap.
You may as well be pushing the anti-vaccine tripe.
Kool-Aid Denial.
Unless you know the cause of all degenerative diseases? Cancers? Cardiovascular disease? The bacteria present that multiply and reabsorbed are linked to those conditions. There's no debating that unless you place zero value in scientific research.
Denial? I didn't even know it was a thing until you brought it up, then after 10 mins of researching I found it to have all the same merits of the anti-vaccine movement that pushes natural therapies over actual medicine.
Provide the research, I'd be happy to change my mind but it's all looking like quackery.
You're not much of a researcher then.
The only proven, safe "alternative" to pulp necrosis is extraction.
I see that you also, after quite a bit of time trying to find the research journal articles to support the claim, gave up.
Don't worry. It's OK. You belong to a growing collective of individuals who promote 'natural' medicine over things like vaccinations and when prompted for the scientific data to collaborate alternative therapies, you resort to calling the person asking - a bad researcher or unscientific. Very weird!
There's an incentive for you to provide the research, if you don't want to provide it because you think I'm beneath you (lol btw), and I can't find it looking through pubmed and other scientific journals, then the onus is on you to provide it. As I said, I'm happy to change my mind if there's something of substance.
Until then, I prefer to be able to chew food and have a presentable smile, so I'll always opt for a root canal and keeping the tooth than an extraction as I don't have a spare $50k for a set of implants right now.
lol whole volumes have been dedicated to the subject. I'm not bestowing anything upon you. Your body, your research.
Or not.
so I'll always opt for a root canal
Enjoy your overpriced disease incubator!
@c0balt: I was talking to a friend last week who was having some weird health issues she tracked it back to a root canal that she had done (time wise)and got the dentist to pull the tooth out. Lo and behold there was bacteria still in the tooth and in her case it was getting in to her system through a tiny hole left after the root canal was performed. Did she have them do a double-blind placebo controlled study to show to the sceptics who wouldn't believe it anyway? No she didn't.
(FTR I've also read about people who have had all their root canalled teeth removed in an attempt to rectify other health issues but it had no effect. I had one pulled out last week (for other reasons) so I'll let you know if I notice any improvements. :) )
Then it's a root canal that wasn't completed properly, not that all root canals cause disease.
Please don't go down the anti-vaccine argument that 'because my friend had x happen to them' that a treatment causes a disease. If this was true, there would be a big financial incentive for researchers over the years to get further grants to research why so many people with root canals are getting cardiovascular/neural/whatever diseases, but there wasn't.
Root canal toxicity is looking to quackery, and like all good quackery, it makes a little sense. Hence why the anti vaccination movement is so popular.
@c0balt: Yep, that's sounds fair enough. I thought the other guy's point was that root canals 'can' be a source of problems and not that every root canal was? :)
His point is that all root canals are bad and will cause further health problems. He used a term called 'root canal toxicity' that when searched for, results in many alternative medicine pushing websites and people who write books on the subject matter. I've tried finding actual research into it, but I haven't been able to find any despite having access to scientific/medical journals online.
I've said I would change my opinion if I could find the research showing it, but have a look at the responses he wrote.
He wrote that even successful root canals cause problems in his first post, and that extraction is the only thing people should be doing when they have an abscess - to never even consider a root canal.
@c0balt: You are the only one mentioning the anti-vax movement. Yes I understand that it is merely a tactic to undermine the other person's position by association (you notice how all those flat-Earth believers also question the official 9/11 account? :) )but you would get more mileage by discussing the topic at hand, which is the potential hazards of root canals. I'm sure you'd get plenty of takers if you wanted to start up your own vaccination thread.
Because it's the exact same argument.
There's 'experts' who say that vaccines cause disease, yet there is no scientific research showing this. In fact there's a lot of primary research articles that show there isn't a connection.
As a result, people think they are getting great information by not vaccinating or not getting a root canal and opting for an extraction - when in reality the research they believed isn't real and doesn't hold water in the scientific community.
It's not meant to undermine a root canal by bringing up vaccinations, it's meant to draw a very relevant parallel to the types of people who would actively shun medicine for alternative medicine or not getting treatment at all.
It's clear by your upvoting of his posts that you on the side of saying that root canals cause disease. That's just dandy of you to do so. Maybe you could find the research then?
Are you an anti-vaxxer also? Ohhhh I found you are a bit of a recognised quack when it comes to these issues: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/365520
Seems like you have a real axe to grind against the field of medicine. Why?
@c0balt: From personal experience there are TONS of scientific articles showing the dangers of vaccines. I know this because our son had a bad turn when he got his 2-year old MMR shots (and no, it wasn't just a sore arm). It scared us so badly that we have spent the last 15 years looking into the issue and the 'antivaxxers' (lols at the pejorative label) are right to be concerned. The evidence, both scientific and anecdotal about the dangers of vaccines is too overwhelming to be ignored. If 'YOU' cannot find it then I'd suggest you haven't even tried. Also, there is a pretty fierce censorship campaign against the vaccine regime going on atm. To the point that , on the weekend the pro-vaxxers were completely apoplectic over the fact that someone dared to put up a billboard merely asking the question 'Do you know what's in your vaccine?'. Public manipulation is not hard to spot and when I read about doctor after doctor after scientist after scientist who are being threatened, attacked and ridiculed and dismissed by the 'machine' and it's mindless followers I am simply reminded of all the other dangerous and ignorant witch-hunts that have plagued us throughout all of history. Nothing changes.
I won't be continuing this debate (vaccines) because it is way off topic and way too contentious, all of the info is out there for those who care to look. Even youtube is full of vaccine damaged people just trying to be heard.
(p.s as regards to your claim that you couldn't find any studies on the root canal issues, I did a quick search. You might need to be a subscriber to get the conclusions?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11307468
Or this one
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4601489/
"The oral microbiota lives in harmony with the host, until an induced micro-environmental change causes disturbances in this symbiotic relationship. This change may result in selective overgrowth of opportunistic pathogens, or in an insufficient capacity of the host to respond to otherwise commensal microorganisms. Hence, either a certain bacterial community may become now more virulent, or the host mounts an immune response that is not sufficient to eliminate its unbalanced growth, eventually resulting in a dysbiotic relationship between the two.75 This view perceives the development of oral infectious disease as an "ecological catastrophe" resulting from an imbalanced cross-talk between the resident oral microbiota and the host response."
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.…
Granted I didn't read through all of those studies because I am not that invested in the idea that root canals can be a source of ongoing problems (and I don't speaky sciency that well). But you said there were NO studies out there and clearly that is not the case. But then you also claim there are NO studies about the dangers of vaccines and that is clearly not true either.
I think I'll let other people finish this conversation. All the best. :) )
Until Speckled Jim fronts up with some peer-reviewed articles on PubMed, the anti-vaxxer comparison seems apt to me.
Edit: I see you've done it for him.
@dazweeja: Fair enough (lols). Here's a couple more until he get's back then I'm off to play some Witcher for a bit. :)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17949345
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25227214
https://www.ericdavisdental.com/services/why-there-are-some-…
https://www.ericdavisdental.com/services/why-there-are-some-…
https://www.ericdavisdental.com/services/why-there-are-some-…
https://www.ericdavisdental.com/services/why-there-are-some-…
As I said, it's no biggy either way to me, I have had root canals done and have had no problems that I have noticed but other people do.
(And for Cobalt, stalking me around the forums looking to drag up information from other threads is pretty low-brow dude. I have no problem with medicine as you imply but I do have problems with medicine that doesn't work or causes more problems than the actual complaint. And there is no shortage of examples on that score. Western medicine has it's place for sure, if I had a heart attack or a car accident or some other acute problem then I would consult a trained GP or surgeon. For ongoing general health and chronic conditions then going to the GP these days is a bit of a crap-shoot. You might get a good one, you might just get a head-scratching pill-pusher. This is my conclusion over decades of personal experience and not merely a belief. )
Does your wife have private insurance?
I paid approx $1k with insurance (3 visits in total).