So there's a couple of recent threads on here talking about employers who have had trouble with employees, or employees who have had trouble with their employers.
It got me wondering… anyone here happy to admit that, at one point in their life, they were a sucky employee and felt the consequences of it? If so, how did you recover from being let go and/or receiving a bad reference?
not yet anyway
My cat's breath smells like catfood
I sleep in a drawer
I'm sure that the person you are choosing to give a reference will give you a good one.
Unless you have only one boss and no other subordinates to select from.
I was wondering how many people out there have crappy relationships with their bosses and selects another for a reference?
Most would-be employers are going to want you to give your most recent boss/supervisor though, I'd imagine. Unless you mess up at your most recent job and don't even list it on your CV..?
Doesn't have to be your direct superior, and the prospective employer won't know if they're a direct superior or not anyway unless the reference says something. So find someone senior who likes you, give them a heads up.
I was talking to a work colleague one day and she got this phone call out of the blue. One of her previous subordinates had nominated her as a reference for him without even asking her if she wanted to do it. Her answers were fairly diplomatic but anyone with half a brain could see she wasn't really recommending him for the job. I thought it was hilarious and she pointed out to me, after the call, that his leaving the team was not exactly a great loss.
answers were fairly diplomatic
Hahaha. That's the society we're in now!
We have to be very careful/mindful what we say due to any ramifications.
You would at least inform the person their expectations of a phone call regarding a reference.
However, I think going by your story, the "indirect" answers would have not been any different .. regardless of notice!
:P
Diplomacy is always a good career skill. If I get upset about something at work I write the reply on "notepad" and file it for a day; I've never sent one but it gets it out of my system. I also work on the principle of put the receiver down and then call someone an idiot. Give the other person their head and let them get it out of their system, then discuss the issue calmly. Of course some people are just dicks, but you can't win them all.
I also work on the principle of put the receiver down and then call someone an idiot.
Hahaha, we have a lot of internal calls - I feel like if I did this, sooner or later (more likely sooner), I'll put the receiver down, and call someone an idiot who's sitting just a few meters away.
@HighAndDry: If they are within hearing distance then someone needs to take the walk rather than ring on the phone.
@try2bhelpful: They should, definitely, but the irony is you can't whinge about that haha… because they're in earshot.
@rompastompa: Yeah, nah very unlikely to get a written warning for just saying "idiot"; unless you have done something else and this is the last straw. I don't think any company is going down that road.
Give the other person their head and let them get it out of their system
So, ahh, where do you work exactly? Asking for a friend…
@djkelly69: In IT.
Many years ago I had this senior manager go ballistic about an issue we had one day. I let him have his head and get it out of his system then, calmly, explained what the issue was, how we were going to fix it and what testing we had done. In the end he said "and I, presume, it doesn't help with idiots like me ringing you up and interrupting". The worst thing I could've done at that point was to try and defend myself or diminish our responsibility; by being straight forward and de-escalating the situation he came onboard.
If I get upset about something at work I write the reply on "notepad" and file it for a day; I've never sent one but it gets it out of my system.
You should see some of the comments I haven't posted on OzBargain…
Great plan, right up until someone reads what you've written over your shoulder.
I wouldn't put anything in writing in any form that I wouldn't want seen. Easy enough to write it in "BrainPad".
Ouch. Yeah no, putting someone as a reference without letting them know is already a faux pas. Putting someone who doesn't even like you without letting them know is a great way to never get calls back from job applications.
had a team leader stand up while receiving a call, that was obviously about a reference. the things he said were horrible and straight forward, and he was looking at us while giving an incredulous and condemning reference.
'fairly diplomatic' would have been nice. It was very intimidating for the rest of us. I sent the person a text and said not to use them again.
I work in a recruitment and from from time to time take bad references…. a real lack of self awareness
It happens a lot. Job politics, etc. especially if the employee is going to a much better place.
i might wrong. My understanding is reference isn't allow to give a bad review on you.
Yeah, your understanding is wrong.
I've given a bad reference before.
Did that employee get hired despite your bad reference? What was the would-be future employer's reaction?
No. They were on the fence about the employee. They weren't unhappy.
Isn't it considered unethical to give a bad reference for someone? If someone asks you to give a reference for them I thought you're supposed to deny them if you're going to give one that's more negative than it is positive. Unethical may not be the right word, I don't know the difference between ethics and morals and that sort of thing.
Super awkward for them to have to hear back via their prospective employer (if they even do) that their previous one actually didn't think they were any good to work with.
@hetzjagd: What why? Unless you're lying about them, how could it possibly be immoral or unethical to give a bad, but accurate reference?
I don't think there's an issue at all. It's a (very sight, but real and for no benefit) legal risk, but that's the extent of why you wouldn't give one.
Legal liability aside - I believe the candidate should know more or less the kind of reference you would give them based on performance feedback prior to their asking you for it. The expectation is that if you ask someone for a reference you are needing one that is at least more positive than negative. No-one has any use for a negative reference and it's a waste of everyones time.
To just say "ok I'll give you a reference" and lead them to find out through another party that it's a bad one…well…how cruel do you want to be?
@hetzjagd: You have a completely different way of looking at things than I do.
Giving a reference isn't supposed to be doing anyone a favor - unless you like the person in which case you'd be giving them a good reference anyway.
Of course everyone wants a good reference - I also want free coffee but still end up paying for it every morning (yes yes, take my OzBargain badge). It's up to the person wanting the reference to 1. give the referee a heads up, 2. know whether they'd get a good or bad one (and obviously they'd be an idiot to use a referee who'd give a bad reference), and 3. ask if they don't know.
None of these things are the responsibility - ethical, moral, or legal - of the referee themselves so long as they aren't lying. You seem to think that people are somehow entitled to a good reference no matter what. If they were a good worker, then sure, but if not, then…. no.
I know what a reference is for. I don't believe it's meant to be done as a 'favour'. I don't think there's anything else much to discuss, just different approaches
And I certainly don't think people are entitled to a good reference no matter what. Where's your logic in thinking I said that? That would be madness. I'm saying someone who was not able to secure a DESERVED good reference, would have to apply sans references and explain that to their prospective employer however they see fit. And for the applicants with references, an employer still needs to call the referees to confirm they are 1 legit and 2 actually any good and/or what are their strengths and weaknesses.
@hetzjagd: I feel like it's unethical to lie to the party that has called you and made enquiries about someone.
Of course it is! How are you guys misreading what I'm saying? I didn't say "you have to give someone a good reference if they ask". I said YOU SHOULD DENY SOMEONE A REFERENCE IF THEY ASK AND YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE IT BAD. FFS
@hetzjagd: It's a small industry, and my professional credibility was on the line.
I have given good references too.
@HighAndDry:
When you ask someone for a reference, what you are asking for is if they will vouch for you. If you intend to give a bad reference or you simply don't like the person - then you should decline.
No one is asking for a bad reference. No one is saying "Hey, can you ensure I don't get my new job?" - when you ask for a reference it's implied that you would expect a truthful but positive reference.
Giving a bad reference, when you agreed to give someone a reference is simply deceptive - which is where the 'unethical' part comes in. If anyone was aware that they'd be receiving a bad reference, then they wouldn't list that referee - simple.
Now, if someone puts you as a reference without asking you - then it's a different story. There should be no expectation that a good reference is to be given.
When you ask someone for a reference, what you are asking for is if they will vouch for you. If you intend to give a bad reference or you simply don't like the person - then you should decline.
That's not what "a reference" means. It's what "a good reference" means. If you're asking someone to give a reference that you're not sure is going to be good, then it's your fault if they give an accurate reference that turns out not to be a good one.
@hetzjagd: I understand what you’re saying and I agree.
I have been asked to give a reference for someone who a) I wasn’t managing and b) thought was a bad employee. I declined the request.
It's a mean thing to do, but on the other hand you could be doing the potential next employer a huge favour.
In general when selecting someone to represent you, it's also in the responsibility of the asker to understand that the referee shouldn't go out of their way to lie to make a good reference. The asker should also have some kind of awareness of how they performed in their job as well as their relationship with the referee. It's also good to ask the referee beforehand exactly what kind of response they would give. It's kind of confronting but if you can't ask your own referee for their opinion then why is it okay for a stranger to ask about you?
If they lie and say to you they think you're great and then turn around and give you a bad reference then yeah, that's a jerk move.. but you should try everything you can beforehand to not risk that situation.
You're right and I agree. I've been very sleep wrecked recently and wasn't able to explain myself as eloquently as I wanted and didn't cover all the points I meant to. If someone who isn't the perfect worker asks their supervisor for a reference, I kept saying "the supervisor should decline to give the reference". In retrospect what I meant to say is that it's not so much that the supervisor should simply decline it, but that they make sure they are aware that the employee will know what to expect from the reference if it's going to be mixed or negative. Pretty much what you just said but I wanted to put my own words to it just so I might look a little less like a nut to anyone reading my comments above.
I got fired for scanning playstation 2's as bread! went to court to
Did you win?
They got the highest score.
Amateur, we all know brown onions scan as way less than bread!
Wait, what store sells both PS2s and bread? Costco?
Many Many years ago
Really? I thought Playstation 2 was the new model!
Never been fired. Have had superiors who've not liked me… but then you just go find someone senior who does like you and get a reference from them.
If you can't find anyone senior who likes you…. well then.
I've had calls asking about people who haven't asked me to be a reference, including one I couldn't think of anything nice to say about
I've had another where the guy asked me, but when they called he had seriously embellished what he did when we was working there. He was in a junior position but seems he had told them he pretty much ran the place.
But I always try to be diplomatic and rather say nothing and just state the facts rather than say something bad - they can read between the lines. The candidates are allowed to see the record of the call, and if you say something bad I have heard they could use it against you
It's more a matter of professionalism than legal risk to be diplomatic - while it does happen, the factors which would all be required to be present for any successful claim would be exceedingly rare. Of course - ignorant people making misguided (and ultimately unsuccessful) claims still take up time and effort - so that's something to consider too.
Isn't it against some law to give a bad reference? I thought you were only allowed to give the shiny, happy reference or stick to 'yes they worked here and there job was XYZ'?
Nope. That's more a legal CYA - and the fact that there's literally no benefit in giving a bad reference so the cost/benefit calculation is pretty one-sided.
ah fair enough.
References always seemed a bit weird to me, I mean you are not going to give the name of someone that is going to say bad things.,
You'd think that, but from the responses in this thread (and a few people I've known in real life)………
Some people are that clueless/incompetent they will put down someone as a reference without checking with them first or without realising they wouldn't give a great reference…have heard of it a few times…
Although, there is a conflict of interest sometimes, my wife has given a relatively positive reference for one of her staff she wanted to get rid of anyway (because they were underperforming/not suited to their current job). She rationalised it by saying to me, who knows, they could do better elsewhere and they obviously want to leave.
Also, that person is going to be so keen to get rid of you, why would they say anything bad??
@jellykingdom: haha and the opposite too…give you a bad reference if they wanted to keep you…although a big risk of you walking anyway if you found out…
@jellykingdom: because when you give a reference you are putting your own reputation on the line. Giving a glowing reference for a shithouse employee reflects on you, personally I would simply decline to give a reference to someone or thought was bad or if I got called without being asked I would simply give them the truth.
That's a common policy for US based companies, and their overseas subsidiaries.
I was repeatedly fired from my job as a human cannonball.
Thank you, thank you; I’m here all week.
Presumably more of a, 'here, then there - here, then there" kinda thing, no?
Just like that, just like that.
How would anyone know for sure if they were given a bad reference? Would the hiring company even tell you that was the reason?
Unless you failed at the reference stage, then contacted your reference, asked them directly and they were honest enough to say they gave you a bad reference?
Get a friend to ring the reference. I always ring the references when I am preparing someones resume to check they sound and not crippling them.
Ha, nice
If you fail to get recruited you can call up for feedback and they should generally tell you. It might depend on the person who takes the call though, this came up in a Q and A session I went to and one guy said his feedback was "All I'm going to say is: change your referees". Another said company recruitment policy required absolute transparency and they had to state the reason for being unsuccessful exactly.
I was hired into a large insurance company as a senior assessor many years ago and I quit on the fourth day. The manager that hired me either didn't like me very much or she was just a total control freak.
Day 1 AM - Called to her desk and told off for not wearing a suit jacket in summer to 'set an example' for the juniors.
Day 2 AM - Called to her desk and told off for receiving emails that were blocked (I hadn't even given out my work email address to anyone yet)
Day 3 PM - Called to her desk and told off for "talking too much" when I was talking to the team about how to use their system.
Day 4 AM - Came prepared with a resignation letter. Got called to her desk and before she could say anything, I dumped the letter on her desk and walked away.
Got a call from HR that afternoon asking me what happened and I explained the situation. They ended up paying me for two weeks. A month later, I get a call from the new manager asking if I'd like to come back for a second chance. But I'd already started a new job by then. Seems like I wasn't the only person to complain and they'd fired the previous witch.
Called to her desk and told off for receiving emails that were blocked (I hadn't even given out my work email address to anyone yet)
….. Not saying this is the most egregious thing on the list, but she knows that spam emails are a thing, right?
How do you even control what emails you receive? Oh right, you cant!
Also, what the hell is a "blocked" email anyway? And if they are indeed blocked, how were they received?
Right? It's basically "How dare you receive spam emails?" I wouldn't even know how to respond. If you could magically stop spam emails from being sent, you'd be making a LOT of money from companies like Google or TPG, etc because you'd save them literal millions in wasted internet traffic.
what the hell is a "blocked" email anyway
Some companies have setup filters on their email systems. Depending on the settings, the email may or may not make it through the filter into an individual's inbox. This particular system sends a separate email notification with basic details of any emails that didn't make it through the filter. Guessing the manager must've also got copies of those notifications too.
Perhaps she was expecting me to install my own email filter.
I think she was just pulling shit out of her butt.
It's quite strange because she was the one that interviewed and made the decision to hire me. If she didn't like me to start with, I don't think she would've hired me. So really, I can only assume that it mustn't have been personal. I didn't even bother arguing back.
Wow, people like that need to burn.
At least the company came to their senses fairly soon. We had a manager who was a flat out bully and he seemed to be "protected" by people from above. When the people above moved on then he was exposed for what he was and they still took ages to work out what to do with him. Last seen he was a specialist assistant, the issue being nobody wanted him to assist them.
Just a hunch, but I think that "witch" just wanted some sexual healing.
Hence why she kept making excuses, playing naughty, and getting you over to her desk ; )
She told you off for not wearing a suit?! How un Australian.
I have not been fired myself, but I have prepared resumes for people who were getting crappy reviews from their references. Take the bad review references and jobs off your resume. You don't have to, and should not, put every job you have ever had on it, especially if you have had a few.
Yep, fired for a bullshit reason JUST before half of the staff got made redundant.
I should have followed them up with FairWork, but I ran out of time due to being overseas on a holiday.
My first white collar job ended with me being terminated.
Worked in a role alongside a daughter of one of the directors. Equal level of experience and seniority, but I loaded up with additional responsibilities/trickier assets than she was.
After second year, found out that she was on a much higher salary than I was, for what I saw was "less work, less responsibility", and prompted me trying to renegotiate with our direct report.
Direct report effectively told me that I should place additional value of the learning opportunities afforded to me — acknowledged the discrepancy, but there was no intention to make changes. Let my quality of work (and attitude) drop as a result, and the week before I was due to go on four weeks leave, was pulled aside by the head of business, acknowledging that things weren't working out. Gave me the option to take my leave as my four weeks notice and not come back or to come back after my leave and work a month before termination. Agreed that my time was over with the company and chose the former of the options. Left on relatively good terms despite the fact I was putting very little heart into my work.
Got a good reference from the head of business and had a similar, better paying job within six weeks of my return from my overseas trip.
My takeaway from all this was that no matter how wronged you feel, when leaving the company ensure that your point is made (respectfully) and you leave on civil terms. No point letting a moment of hotheadedness erase the good work you've done for 1-2 years.
I've been fired twice, and it gets easier each time. I think its an important part of your occupational experience.
1st time was from a retailer. nothing significant, but as for your question, it did take a while to get over. i was working 3 jobs at the time, and it was my best paying and most hours job. it took about 6 months to recover mentally. i wrote it off as experience.
2nd time was from local government. after receiving an injury (back) following direct instructions from my supervisor, i complained and wrote a grievance about the supervisor and the risky, unnecessary and avoidable procedure. As a result, i was investigated for internet activity, to which they discovered up to 3.5 hours of a work day spent on ozbargain (was during the christmas period too, where they knew we had limited responsibility, and the only ones present). so i went through a process, didnt use internet (let alone a computer) at work for around 11 months, wrote letters and more grievances and followed workplace behaviour management/interventions. In the end, i was sacked for not following the original work instructions, paid 4 months salary, and left. immediately life got better. i landed a job 6 weeks later with better pay, better role, conditions and most importantly, a 1000x better leader.
during the interview for the new job, they asked why i didnt have any recent references, as my reference was from an employer 5 years previously (two references, both awesome). i said i used my best reference because not everyone in local government is capable of providing a suitable reference. The person giving the interview immediately understood, and said 'if you havent worked with poor performance in management and leadership in government, you havent really worked in that industry.'
getting fired is devastating. if you dont mature each time, its not worth it and you are who they say you are.
after receiving an injury (back) following direct instructions from my supervisor
You should've gone for workcover. Back injuries are especially risky and dangerous with potential long-term effects.
went to workcover. they had an in-house doctor who was fairly cracked (obviously couldnt get employed by a medical practice). he blamed my back injury on my inflexibility, and didnt bother with any of my supplied proof. My proof was avoided.
this made things more time consuming and costly if i was to get a second opinion.
Edit: and after reading the OP question 'would you admit you were a bad employee and ate the consequences', i would say that during my work there i thought and felt i did a really good job. But after working for a much better leader and in a role where my capabilities were much better aligned, i'd say that i only did a good job (in the job i was terminated in) with the circumstances i had. the attitude i had in that role was not the best.
Damn what a ridiculous excuse to blow you off.
Totally agree, it's a life experience. Congratulations on getting through those tough times!
Once place I worked someone was fired for being utterly incompetent, and was stupid enough to list their manager as a reference.
It's a legal minefield to actually give a bad reference, but there's one line that speaks volumes, is not lbelous or slanderous…
"I'm sorry I decline to offer a reference other than to confirm that XXXX was employed here as a YYYYY from AA/BB to CC/DD"
Potential employers don't even need to ask questions then, other than to know it's probably best if they looked at another candidate.
I couldn't find another job for months due to a bad reference from my manager
I've received some unjustified bad references from managers who were very disconnected from me. Won't get into the details, but I was surprised to find JUST how many people were in disbelief - first up that someone would give a model worker like me a bad reference, but further that they even COULD. I was told so many times "they can't say that! That's (legally or morally) wrong!" The reality is, a referee can say whatever they want. For starters, that's the whole POINT of a reference call, but besides that, the idea that they can be liable for slander or whatever, is laughable. The content of the call is usually confidential, seldom recorded, and then you'd also have to prove that what they say isn't true. Half the time you're not even going to know. Rather than presume diplomacy, the best defence for you, is to set up a false reference call and hear it straight from the horses mouth. If you have problems, cut them off the list. If you can't cut them off then you will at least know some discussion points that you can work on and you'll know to back your case.
I mean, yes you could do that, but if you have a working relationship with your manager why not just have a chat to them beforehand? Seems so much more straight forward. I'm not much of a people person (as anyone who's seen my comments here can attest) so it can't possibly be that I just have especially good relationships with my superiors.
Being difficult to terminate someone as it is in Australia, I wonder what goes through people's minds when they're performance managed.
You'd think either you're going to try to improve or start looking at other options rather than face termination
A friend hired a graduate whose performance dropped as soon as probation ended - they wouldn't even do the bare minimum and would often leave client work uncompleted after deadlines with little care for the work. Went through over a month of performance management and didn't change a thing so they let them go.
I have Chandler Bing as a reference
You mean Toby?
Got fired twice, 1st I considered as a trap - worked in a team of 4 and we were told to keep producing CPI every week to improve productivity, long story short the CPI hits the spot eventually and reducing our workload by heaps to the point where they no longer need us (all 4 of us were made redundant one by one, week after week). This was actually a good thing for me at the time because I got lucky I got another job 2 weeks later, so thanks for the nice severance payment.
2nd I can admit, it was partly my fault, well I'm the sort of guy that comes on time and leave on time. I got pulled to the office and being told that leaving work at 5 on the dot is a no go, after this everything went south for me, they asked me to do stuff that wasn't in my description, got asked to cold call clients and prospect them (I'm not even on the sales team) and since I hate doing that, I called in sick on the day where they need me to just be on the call..got fired on the same afternoon, told not to come back to the office the next day, I said ok.
I never have any anger or depressed about being fired because I know it's only temporary and you'll get back in there if you believe you are capable.
As for reference, I got lucky I have made friends with people with status (not my direct reporting person) that can testify that I'm a good worker, so I got by just fine.
This culture of staying back after 5 for no other reason than to look good really shits me. If you're good and efficient and finish your work on time, why shouldn't you leave on time?! This whoever-suffers-the-most culture has got to stop.
Sounds like he wasn't arriving on time either.
Nah, I arrived at 8.23 as that was the only option available to me, either early or late so I got there turn on my comp and read my mails, mind you work starts at 8.30 and nobody starts at this time either they're there eating breakfast or haven't arrived yet.
I'm your usual admin guy at the time, quiet and do as told and apparently not as talkative as other ppl, as time goes on I learned that it don't matter if you are excellent at your job or not, if you don't mingle then you will eventually be the first to go if something happens or expect to be in the same position as when you first started 5 years ago in that same company.
@Tightpocket:
gotta hate the people who regularly arrive late AND have the balls to waste another half an hour eating their sugary oats brekkie.
No, I have not. Never.