When does it become unreasonable for someone to work out of hours? My workplace expects an extra ~1-2 hours a day of out of hours work, unpaid and no time in lieu provided.
Theres alot of unreasonable requests and i get reprimanded if i refuse to work the additional hours.
Work in IT, Full time salary, been here for 3 years.
It's not reasonable but it's a competitive market. Engineering is similar. Very normal to do 50-60 hour weeks with unpaid overtime beyond 40 hours paid because although they don't technically ask you to do that, it's expected. If you don't want to do it, there's others out there that will. Definitely not the correct mentality but unfortunately that's reality.
The flipside is most companies are fairly flexible in other ways. Most don’t have swipe in and out logging your time in the office or check up on you online to make sure you did every minute of your paid time. They’re fine with you leaving early on occasion or extended lunch break or multiple bathroom breaks a day etc etc..
For most people, it’s swings and roundabouts and balances out.
I am in IT. Full time Permament and Contract.
The work hour requirements swing wildly.
At the end of a project, its normally manic all hands on board stay late + weekend implementations.
Hell I have even 'volunteered' to do software testing to help get the projetc over the line.
I don't mind as long as the management give and take.
Sometimes I need to go pick up kids, go to dentist so may have to come in later or leave earlier.
Please check the contract both parties signed (If you have a contract). Australia has workplace laws as well, worth checking them out….
This isn't bad advice, but it's sometimes not good advice either, because a lot of the time employers would put in unenforceable clauses (because they can), and rely on the fact people think contracts all contracts are binding (which they're not if they're unenforceable) and so won't raise or press the issue on seeing that part of the contract.
"This isn't bad advice, but it's sometimes not good advice either"
This isn't a bad comment, but it's not a good comment either…
Lol, I'm trying to be nuanced damnit.
Real life example might be car park signs that say: If you don't have a ticket they'll charge you crazy amounts of money. They can say that, and technically you even agree to it. But it's unenforceable.
what exactly does it say on your contract?
"Reasonable" hours worked outside of hours at times.
"at times"
If your direct report is giving you a hard time and making you work the majority of your days overtime, approach them and ask for your agreement (and remuneration) to be updated to reflect this.
You'll either get more money for more work, or make the argument that while you will work outside of ours "at times", this will not apply to the majority of your days.
Call the union
2nd that, Contact your Union. 10+ Hours unpaid overtime a week is unreasonable imo.
I don't have a union as i'm full time salary in a small business.
I've done 20 hours extra a week before also..
You don't have to be in a big business to belong to a union.
http://www.professionalsaustralia.org.au/information-technol…
It's all relative and there a probably other factors to consider, but let's say you work an 8 hour workday, an extra 2 hours each day is a 25% increase.
That does seem excessive.
If you were out shopping or eating and were asked to pay an extra 25% for something (goods or services) for no gain, would you be happy?
How exactly do you get reprimanded?
Most contracts I have signed say its 8 hour working day plus time required to perform the day's tasks (something to that effect).
What tsunamisurfer said. If you're a checkout person at the local Woolies, I'd be clocking in and out on the bloody dot. If you're in a salaried role… well it depends on what your employment contract says though most do include "reasonable overtime". And "reasonable" in this case depends on your industry, role, seniority, and other circumstances (e.g. if you're in banking, that could be multiple hours a day around the EOFY period).
reasonable overtime is an uncommon "oh we need you to stay back to do something". being required to work back every day is not anywhere near reasonable, and needs to be referred back to fair work.
OP's salaried.
I don't think this is the case. There is no hard and fast rule. It's definitely "it depends", so without more specific detail from OP, none of us can say.
Fair work says;
What factors determine whether additional hours are reasonable?
In determining whether additional hours are reasonable or unreasonable, the following must be taken into account:*any risk to employee health and safety
*the employee’s personal circumstances, including family responsibilities
*the needs of the workplace or enterprise
*whether the employee is entitled to receive overtime payments, penalty rates or other compensation for (or a level of remuneration that reflects an expectation of ) working additional hours
*any notice given by the employer to work the additional hours
*any notice given by the employee of his or her intention to refuse to work the additional hours
*the usual patterns of work in the industry
*the nature of the employee’s role and the employee’s level of responsibility
*whether the additional hours are in accordance with averaging provisions included in an award or agreement that is applicable to the employee, or an averaging arrangement agreed to by an employer and an award/agreement-free employee
*any other relevant matter.
I did come across a contract recently that stated that 38 hours a week was paid and 2 hours a week (to make it up to a 40 hour week) was mandatory "reasonable overtime".
38 hours a week was paid and 2 hours a week (to make it up to a 40 hour week) was mandatory "reasonable overtime".
That's just stupid. Why not make it an even 40 hrs a week to begin with? Unless they're capping it at 2hrs / wk reasonable overtime.
Because 38 hours a week is the maximum you can legally require of an employee as "normal time" in Australia.
@TimOfMcDowall: But the link itself says:
"An employer must not request or require an employee to work more than the following hours of work in a week, unless the additional hours are reasonable".
So it's not like the 38hrs is a hard cap. I guess it makes sense to put that as a "normal max work week hrs", but it's immediately defeated by putting in 2hrs mandatory overtime. It makes no sense to phrase it that way.
@HighAndDry: agreed, makes no sense, but the law often doesn't. In that case the employer really wanted a 40 hour week completed, but couldn't do it any other way.
2hrs mandatory overtime
And that could be the issue. The odd overtime to meet a deadline might be considered reasonable unpaid overtime.
But if there is an expectation to work 50-60 hours each week, that is not reasonable. But as has been identified, if you're not willing to tow the line (in some industries) they will find someone who is.
@tomsco: I think you're mixing up the concepts.
There's the Fairwork's "max hours in a week which cannot exceed 38 hrs unless the additional hours are reasonable" - this (38hrs PLUS reasonable additional hours) is your normal working hours, and then there's "reasonable overtime" which is the hours exceeding the normal working hours (not all hours exceeding 38).
So as an example, your normal hours could be 45hrs a week (being FW's standard 38 plus 7 for [reasons]) made up of 9 hour days, 5 days a week. THEN, if you work 10 hrs in a day, you've worked 1 hr of overtime - and that would be the "reasonable overtime" part of your contract.
I did come across a contract recently that stated that 38 hours a week was paid and 2 hours a week (to make it up to a 40 hour week) was mandatory "reasonable overtime".
That isn't legal. By mandating an extra 2 hours a week as default, makes that the "standard working hours" and puts them over the 38 hour limit. My current company tried the same thing with me when I started. After seeking legal advice when I objected, they ended up changing the working hours for the entire company from 40 to 37.5
Depends on the industry.
I'm a pub manager and the company expects a MINIMUM of 45 hour weeks.
45hrs unpaid?
No, get paid for 38.
This week I'm rostered for 51 hours. So that 13 hours unpaid. Or equivalent to working Monday to Saturday and half of Sunday for a normal worked.
How many of those hrs are you allowed to work intoxicated?
It gets real tempting sometimes.
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2 hours 11 min ago
$5 bucks on the OP never replying to any comments on this thread.
Do you want my PayPal or Bank details?
Brilliant haha!
Come-on now, don't break the mould… 😂
And into the Penalty Box!
Lol. Wonder if it's a second account. Maybe a rep here trying for anonymity.
Lol, nicely spotted :)
Take a sickie 10 times a year and you're square
This is precisely what I do or work from home. I worked 30 hours over and when I asked for TOIL, boss refused. Said it’s expected. Mental health days. Take them. You’ll enjoy work more and perform better
Depends, it is pretty normal in the IT industry. Do you want to get ahead or just sit back and work on a helpdesk watching the clock.
Always worth looking at Fair Work website for answers to these kind of things. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g…
Personally, 2 hours extra a day seems unreasonable, so go get a job somewhere else. It's certainly not "industry standard" in IT to work so much extra every day. But I am pretty sure Google employees do that normally. If they are paying so well it's not worth leaving the job over, then it's probably not unreasonable. Sounds like they are very understaffed if they need you to work 9-10 hours a day 5 days a week.
Its sad to say. But this is one of those, if you dont like it, leave, situations. My contract says 8-5pm and all hours necessary to fulfill project duties. Lets say, some weeks I can work 7-9 no worries for weeks on end. But when it is the other way round, they are completely flexible. I.e. 2hour lunch, come in at 9.30, leave at 3, procrastinate etc.
'Reasonable' amount of time varies depending on the industry. Take a retail store, for example, where you might need to stay back a little longer to clean up a mess, or because there's a system error delaying close, or because some customer(s) come at the last minute and delay your close up. In that situation, these are just little tid bits that are unforeseen and the sum of all the extra work may well be balanced out over time against those times when, say, your lunch breaks went a little too long.
For IT, I imagine that the same logic would apply; a 'reasonable' amount of time would be staying back here or there to finish up what you're doing so its easy to pick up the next day, or being delayed due to some issues, or (at worst) staying back an hour or so to get something done before a deadline. But since you're staying back 1-2 hours every day, that is certainly not unforeseen and is purely the result of your employers providing too much work relative to the number of staff (or extremely slack staff!).
Salaried workers normal hours and extra time must be equal to or higher then the relevant award including penalty rates… "a key factor is whether your salary is at least equal to what you would have earned under the award for the hours you worked (including any overtime or penalty rates that would have applied)."…"An employee can work a maximum of 38 hours in a week unless an employer asks them to work reasonable extra hours." https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-w…
Not every IT project is run like crap with a lot of unexpected overtime. The amount of work should be scheduled in realistically, with enough resources to get a project finished (note I did not say on time!). If the company can't run a project well and think about their employees then I would leave. I would not say this is the norm for every IT company.
My workplace expects an extra ~1-2 hours a day of out of hours work, unpaid and no time in lieu provided.
Do they specifically ask you to stay back to do work?
Or
Is it expected that you finish the tasks that you're responsible for and the only way you can do that is by staying back every day? Does everyone else stay back too? Are you not working fast enough?
I read a lot of contracts from different industries. Almost every contract for a salaried worker mentions 38 hours plus reasonable overtime. For example I've never met a chef who works 38 hours a week. Each industry is different, IT is pretty broad.
When you took the job you needed to have a discussion about how many hours you will be actually working to see if it meets your work life balance expectations and if the salary is worth it. I'm guessing that even with the extra hours taken into account you are paid well above the appropriate minimum wage?
Attempt to renegotiate the terms of your employment or search for better pay/conditions elsewhere.
What type of industry is it?
What is your role?
What type of employment contract are you on?