expired Free Digital Video Course "Apologetics Boot Camp" @ Credo Courses

435

Normal Price: $40.00, free for limited time.

Author: C. Michael Patton
Teachers: C. Michael Patton and Tim Kimberley

A four step approach to defending Christianity, focusing only on the essentials of the faith. A great course for any small group or Sunday school class. One of the most compelling and strongest defenses of Christianity you will ever find.

A compelling defense of Christianity created by theologian C. Michael Patton. This course provides a unique approach to defending Christianity which will strengthen the faith of believers and give unbelievers a serious pause as the see the rationality of Christianity.

Apologetics Boot Camp

  1. The Existence of God
  2. The Reliability of Scripture
  3. The Resurrection of Christ
  4. The Deity of Christ

The Existence of God (Part 1 of 4) from Credo House on Vimeo. https://vimeo.com/69112430

The PowerPoint and Keynote slide decks contain over 180 slides that are illustrative and full of teachers notes to help with further study, but primarily help in teaching this course to others.

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closed Comments

  •  

    Ah yes, let us all start killing witches, gays and people who work on the sabbath as commanded in your 'good' book. Not one of these so-called arguments for the existence of any gods holds up to logical scrutiny - if it did people would just accept it. Selling a product which makes unfounded claims is a scam in my book.

    • +10 votes

      holds up to logical scrutiny

      I guess you don't understand the meaning of 'faith'… Oh well…

    • +10 votes

      let us all start killing witches, gays and people who work on the sabbath

      Where exactly in the video did you see this ?

      • +1 vote

        Haven't you read the Bible? These are amongst the many things which the faithful are commanded to do. It is a collection of harsh myths about a tribal god who conducts genocide on a scale unmatched by any human. Fortunately it is just a myth, and as people become better educated and have a higher standard of living it is dying out as a belief system as well.

        • -7 votes

          Only Christianty in Caucasian countries is dying out. Islam is thriving; soon half the world's population will consist of devote Muslims. Excellent, liberalism deserves to die.

          Atheists are so pathetic that they fail the most basic biological function, that of having children. The birthrate among atheists and liberal progressives is less than 1 child per woman. They are willing themselves into extinction. Religious fundamentalists (of all faiths) average about 4 children per woman.

        • +6 votes

          @Thaal Sinestro: Atheists have a low birth rate in order to counteract the unsustainably high birth rate of fundamentalists. Or is overpopulation and the ensuing global food/water shortages and climate refugees all part of "god's plan"?

        • +1 vote

          @infinity3000: Great counteract, now they have to take migrants since they don't have enough people. Maybe too much counteract without migrant their economy will go down? lol

      • +4 votes

        While probably not in the video, Exodus 35:2 reads "Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death." So, I guess it's ok to teach a Sunday school class as long as it's about religion and you don't call it work.

        • +2 votes

          You need to read the Bible in context. That is part of the old Mosaic covenant which Jesus fulfilled. Christians aren’t required to uphold the laws you read about in Exodus, because it has been replaced by a new covenant which you can read about in the New Testament.

        •  

          @k23man: “You need to read the Bible in context. That is part of the old Mosaic covenant which Jesus fulfilled. Christians aren’t required to uphold the laws you read about in Exodus, because it has been replaced by a new covenant which you can read about in the New Testament.”

          Of course!!! Why didn’t I think of that. So simple and obvious to all.

        • +6 votes

          Colossians 2:16-17 "16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. "

          Mark 2:27 "Then Jesus told them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

        •  

          @gto21:
          Absolutely agree. In fact the whole point of people saying “Do not judge me” is a fact from the Christian faith.
          In fact All the equality and inclusion concepts are stemmed out of Juadeo-Christian values (I also acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Catholics in the centuries earlier. Nevertheless, that doesn’t have anything to do with what Jesus taught or the Bible teaches).
          As a matter of fact democracy, and all the concepts of inclusion, equality, fairness etc was all started only in countries which was established based on Judaea-Christian values. Yes all countries had their equal share of bad things like slavery, abuse etc but people are quick to judge the whole teaching and the way of life. It’s the people who have meted out those atrocities and not that GOD has endorsed them.
          We should be thankful for our freedom to choose and believe any religion or be an atheist and we are in a country like Australia. How many people know what s the penalty for possession of drugs in the Middle East? LGBT is banned in India as per the Supreme Court (Google Indian penal code laws around it) it’s considered as criminal! (Thank GOD we are in Australia) what about communist China and the Korean regime? Omg let me not go into that!

        • +5 votes

          @Cheapbunny:

          As a matter of fact democracy, and all the concepts of inclusion, equality, fairness etc was all started only in countries which was established based on Judaea-Christian values.

          History rewritten in one sentence. Ancient civilisations summarily dismissed. Good job.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

        •  

          Of course!!! Why didn’t I think of that.

          Hence this course.

        •  

          @Cheapbunny: ever heard of japan and south korea?

    •  

      low info malcontent.

  • +7 votes

    I always find it strange that the truth is certainly not the aim of the religious - compliance and belief is. Nothing in my previously down-voted post was untrue - merely uncomfortable to believers and guess what - their 'holy' book tells them they should kill me too.

    • +4 votes

      It doesn’t Rayve. As I said above you need to read the Bible in context. There is no command for Christians to kill anyone. What you are referring to is the Law given to Moses which was fulfilled in Jesus. Christians do not observe this law as it has been replaced by something much better, as described in the New Testament.

      • +5 votes

        Again you are incorrect. You are basing your belief on a modern, liberalised version of Christianity. For the vast majority of history 'true' Christians were perfectly OK with reading the Bible as saying those things and more. There are still Christians around the world killing sorcerers and so on in the name of their religion.

        If you can chuck out the mosaic laws so easily then why is it that Christians cling to the Ten Commandments - they are also part of the Mosaic Law? Why is it that Christians still campaign, for the most part against gay rights - the rules against that were also part of the mosaic laws? Could it be that Christians just pick and choose their own rules to follow or not follow and then say they are in agreement with the Bible?

        • +10 votes

          I provided biblical basis why we don't keep the sabbath in the same way in the Mosaic Law. And that in the 10 commandement. If we cling to the ten commandement why the vast majority of Christians don't follow it? In fact its more than 10 commandement but 613 Torah laws. Some of them we can't even follow even if we wanted since it was a specific people for a specific period of time. And we don't pick and choose, Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Homosexual have the right to have the same human rights as everyone else in society. Do I believe its a sin? Yes. But I also believe any sexual activity outside a marriage between a woman and a man is a sin. Homosexual are allowed to do whatever they want. Should Christian persecute them? No. Christian and homosexual can have the same human rights. And we can disagree with each other. Homosexual usually critice everyone who disagree with them not only Christian, other faith and many atheist as well. Homosexual have the right to disagree, they have the right to critize others. Like we have the same rights as them. I'm Christians, I have homosexual friends. I treat them like everyone else. Most of them don't know I'm a Christians unless I tell them.

        • +1 vote

          I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you there Rayve. The apostle Paul wrote about this issue, when he said that Christians are not bound by the Hebrew law. It’s not a modern, liberalised version of Christianity, but something that’s been established since the very beginning. Re the Ten Commandments, you are correct that they are part of the Mosaic law, however Christians don’t cling to them. Most of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament, so Christians still follow the principles of not lying, stealing, treating your parents well etc. Likewise, homosexuality is clearly identified as sinful in the New Testament, which is why Christians don’t agree with gay marriage.

        • +2 votes

          No, you're incorrect. But why bother educating you why that's the case. Some already tried and you completely ignored the answer, because as the Bible says: "Don't throw pearls before swine." i.e. These things are precious like pearls - but if you toss them to swine - they'll trample them into the mud because 'they just don't get it'.

          There are answers to your questions - but why bother. The question you should be asking yourself, is why you're so intent on disproving something you claim doesn't exist/is foolish. What a waste of time!

        •  

          @GregMonarch: No problem if it's a sincere question. But it's easy to see when someone is here just to debate. No point wasting your time. It's easy to see the ones who just copy paste stuff without understanding. And those who think they are theologians because they attended Sunday School.

        •  

          @gto21: Yes, it can be hard to tell too, I guess. Because I remember I brought up all the same criticisms (at least in my head I did); the Christians I'd met up to that point had been wishy-washy hypocrites whose only apparent form of Christianity was some item hanging from their rear view mirror. Years later I found some people that weren't; realised they actually did have answers; but those answers were also SOLID and made the rote criticisms irrational deniers (like me) had were foolish. In fact they knew 'my' arguments better than the deniers themselves do.

          Yes, faith is needed folks. But it certainly isn't BLIND faith. Once some of the foolishness people 'believe' instead (which is a faith that really IS blind), you quickly realise it takes blind faith NOT to believe.

          Here's just one example. Hitler had it right when he said repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. There's NO proof of evolution. It's 'the theory of evolution', but I've seen outrageous comments claiming 'we have evidence now'. Uh, no - they don't. After a couple of hundred years there's zero evidence. Every 'proof' they supply relies on suspending some other solid fact or logic - and that is not science - that's blind FAITH.

          e.g. Evolution claims all plants came first. Then an amoeba in the ocean formed basic life, which turned into a jellyfish, dolphin, something along the line crawled out of the water and went from insects to dogs to man. Now there's a type of pitcher plant that has ONE method of pollination. The plant gives off an aroma that attracts only ONE type of insect; which falls into the liquid; crawls through a submerged hole; which has a trigger - and the plant attaches pollen to the insect; which crawls out, flies away, and has to fall into the same type of plant and go through the same process a second time to pollinate that second plant - this time REMOVING the pollen.

          Q: If all plants came first - and everything else was in the ocean - HOW did that plant pollinate until the insect 'evolved'?

          A: It didn't pollinate - it would have died, fallen to the ground and rotted, produced no seed - and be as if it never existed. BOTH plant and insect MUST exist at the SAME time - or the plant never exists.

          There are dozens - hundreds - of these logical examples that prove evolution requires FAITH - the SUSPENSION OF LOGIC: not the application of it. Yet people cite evolution and laugh at Christianity. HAHAHA! They've got to be joking. If Christians are 'dumb', then people that 'believe' (faith) evolution because some guy in a white lab coat 'has all the answers' are 'dumber'.

        •  

          @GregMonarch:

          There's NO proof of evolution. It's 'the theory of evolution', but I've seen outrageous comments claiming 'we have evidence now'. Uh, no - they don't. After a couple of hundred years there's zero evidence.

          Have you heard of influenza? aka "the flu". It's a common virus that infects humans (and other animals). Every year we have to get a different vaccine because the virus mutates (aka "evolves").

          That's just one very simple example. Wikipedia has a long article about evidence of evolution - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
          Evolution is established fact among biologists, even most Christians accept it (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution )

          Evolution claims all plants came first.

          No it does not.

          Here's one example which disproves both your claims - this new plant species evolved relatively recently:

          The creation of a new allopolyploid species of monkeyflower (Mimulus peregrinus) was observed on the banks of the Shortcleuch Water—a river in Leadhills, South Lanarkshire, Scotland. Parented from the cross of the two species Mimulus guttatus (containing 14 pairs of chromosomes) and Mimulus luteus (containing 30-31 pairs from a chromosome duplication), M. peregrinus has six copies of its chromosomes (caused by the duplication of the sterile hybrid triploid). Due to the nature of these species, they have the ability to self-fertilize. Because of its number of chromosomes it is not able to pair with M. guttatus, M. luteus, or their sterile triploid offspring. M. peregrinus will either die, producing no offspring, or reproduce with itself effectively leading to a new species.

        •  

          @gto21:

          Homosexual have the right to have the same human rights as everyone else in society. Do I believe its a sin? Yes

          correct me if I am wrong gto21, but as per the bible, the only time we are permitted to have sex, is when we want to have a baby, and that to only with organs directly involved in procreation.

          So following the Bible, oral sex even between a married heterosexual couple, is a sin, as the mouth has nothing to do with procreation

        •  

          @docians: show me where it says the only time you are allowed to have sex is when you want to have babies.

        •  

          @gto21:

          I will in good time
          but why have you chosen to ignore my question?

          So following the Bible, oral sex even between a married heterosexual couple, is a sin, as the mouth has nothing to do with procreation
          in other words is it sinful for a man to receive a blow job from his wife and vice versa?

          and to quote you

          Why can't you answer a simple question?

        •  

          There are still Christians around the world killing sorcerers

          Sources?

        •  

          @docians: Indeed you are wrong. In fact, there's a whole book in the Bible called Song of Songs which is all about sex for pleasure. Basically it's the Christian version of the Kama Sutra. It even has allusions to oral sex.

        •  

          @docians: why will I answer a question that you have no evidence to support the claim? "I will in good time" sound more like it's not biblical.

  • +1 vote

    Once we have finished it, we are slippery. 🤑

  • +2 votes

    Thanks OP. Excellent find.

  •  

    Won’t allow me to add an Australian address so can’t order unfortunately.

    •  

      Make sure you order the digital video only. I've used my Australian address to order. It worked for me.

  • +3 votes

    our local library has a copy of the bible located in the religious section, but people keep moving it to the fiction section where it belongs.

  • +7 votes

    I grew up a Christian, being told each individual is crafted by God in his likeness, and that God loves us unconditionally.

    Fact: 25,000 children die everyday. Not every year. Everyday.

    https://www.unicef.org/factoftheweek/index_53356.html

    Now as a possibly lapsed Christian I wonder why does God not stop these deaths, if he crafted each one of these children in his likeness. I've asked my local religious leaders and they've tried to guilt me into believing that it is somehow my fault!

    Perhaps I'll find some answers watching these videos

    • -1 vote

      I would recommend searching the answer thought some Christian apologists. Leaders like Pastor and Elders have gifts but sometimes the gift of apologetic might not be one of them. Listen to a few different apologists to find the answer. It can be in books, website or youtube. That a couple of them. But check out other apologists as well if you don't find the answer in those videos.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k64YJYBUFLM&index=7&list=PL3...
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxj8ag8Ntd4&list=PL3gdeV4Rk9...

      • +3 votes

        Sure thing, I'll give it a go.

        But in the meantime, if God does not have the time to save those children's lives, do you think he has the time to listen to your prayers/ troubles or mine?

        In the minute it has taken me to type this, another 17 children have died, unfortunately.

        • +1 vote

          Children dying is more of a problem if God does not exist. Many injustices will go unpunished. If God exists you will have justice, if not in this life but the other one. Physical death is not the end. More importantly, they are more likely saved from a "second death" which is spiritual death which is separation from God. Although we don't have a specific age of accountability. We have biblical basis to support this claim. Matt 19:14 "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 18:10 "“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." Romans 1:19 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them." Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 2 Samuel 12:21–23 "Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

        • +3 votes

          @gto21:
          What a wonderful god, giving all those children bone cancer

        • +1 vote

          @cobyau: Nick Vujicic was born without arms and legs. He wanted to commit suicide as a child. Whoever, he became a preacher. And because of his life experience, he ends up saving a teenager in hospital who wanted to kill herself due to bullying and insecurities. What he achieved in life without arms and legs gave that teenager hope. I don't know why bad things happened, I don't have an infinite mind. I'm not omniscient. I would recommend you look up Nick Vujicic on youtube. And watched the longer videos. He said him born with no arms and legs lead to saving a life is all worth it. And bring more people to heaven it's all worth it. He won't have it any other way. No one would have guess how God will use him when he was a child. This is an example bad things can lead to a greater good. This is an example we can observe in a lifetime. We have to consider some stuff we can't observe since we are finite being. I'm sure Nick Vujicic suffering end up saving many life and suffering by sharing his life experience. He goes around the world, sharing his testimony.

        • +3 votes

          @gto21:

          Children dying is more of a problem if God does not exist.

          honestly how could it be any worse.

          the question is why is God not doing to stop those poor children dying, if God did exist that is.

          its this same quoting scripture and trying to justify Gods seeming inaction, that is driving me away. These poor kids, over 1000 of which die every hour do so from preventable conditions like malnutrition, and infections like gastro and pneumonia.

          those 17 children who died in the last minute, all of whom are under five, they would have preferred food or medicine to end their suffering, not Scriptures from the Bible

          and if it is Scriptures we want to quote here is James 2 15-16

          Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

        • -2 votes

          @docians: You quote 2 interesting verses. One in James which teach to treat the poor better. For instance, the amount of waste food in the west is sufficient to fed poor in Africa. You also quote likeness of God. The next verse says as ruler. Preach it brother, if more people follow those two verses it will be a better place. You quote part of the answer yourself. You're not created as a spectator. Stop blaming everything on God, preach it and live it. A lot of issues you're complaining about will be solved.

        • +4 votes

          @gto21:

          You're not created as a spectator. Stop blaming everything on God, preach it and live it. A lot of issues you're complaining about will be solved

          Sadly it didn't take long for it to somehow end up being my fault

          God created these 25000 children who died in the past 24 hours, in his own image.

          They died through no fault of their own.

          God could have helped them, but but he didn't.

          I want to know if God wanted them to die anyway, why creat them.

          Somehow it is my fault because I am a spectator. If I go and preach about God, (who's very existence I am questioning now) some of these children may be saved.

          if none of those children are saved it's somehow my fault, maybe I didn't pray hard enough

          Nah, I'm not falling for your guilt trap thank you

          Is this situation not similar to me having three children, and if one of them is dying of hunger, I sit back and watch, and when he dies I blame the other two. Then I tell them if they don't pray etc they will be next?

        •  

          @docians: I'm not saying it's your fault. What, I'm saying, for instance, we have enough resource to feed everyone in Africa who lack food. Just by the amount of food, the west throws away. We produce enough food to fed them. Let take your example, if the parent provides enough food for 3. Two of the children take everything, yes you can blame the other two for being selfish. Can you show me where it says if you don't pray you will die of hunger?

        •  

          @docians: Hi I believe there is an answer to your question. I am Christian and certainly don’t have all the answers but you have made an accusation against God and if you can prove your case than maybe my view that God is a loving a God concerned with the eternal souls of a lost humanity is faulty. I can debate your accusation either publicly or via. private messaging. That is up to you.

        •  

          @mgh4me: He is just here to debate, highly unlike he will listen to what you have to say. I gave him two videos, he never came up with a counter-argument. If you watch the video, he has an emotional argument, not a logical or probability argument. Some people go to Sunday School and they think they got everything figure out. If you want to give it a try, more power to you. Good on you. But you're probably wasting your time, he already made up his mind. He is here to debate to win an argument.

        •  

          @gto21:
          In my example, I've never said the other two were selfish. In fact as the father is it not my responsibility to look after my child, rather than expect my children to do my job.

        •  

          @docians: do you believe that an accused person is innocent until proven guilty?

        • +2 votes

          @mgh4me:

          Haven't made any accusation against God. Have stated a fact that 25000 children die everyday, yet God does not do anything to change that.

          If God does not have time to save those poor children, it is hard for me to believe that he has the time to listen to my trivial troubles.

          Am I here to debate? No I'm just a lost soul who is trying hard to believe that God exists.

          Mind you children dying of hunger is not new. Has been happening since before Jesus's time and much before that. Were are just more aware of it now with the internet

          If all of us are God's creations then why are 25000 of his little creations dying everyday? Does he not value them? Is it sheer luck that our kids were born here with better health facilities? Are we not meant to be equal in the eyes of God

        •  

          @docians: in many cases, a father and/or mother can't always be with their children every minute every day. In this case scenario is it reasonable to blame two of them if it has enough food for all 3? Why can't you answer a simple question? You sent all 3 to school. Two of them took food and money of their sibling. Those two should not get any blame?

        •  

          @docians: There are also many millions of children who survive each day and live a long and fruitful life. Who would be responsible for that?

        •  

          @docians: Call it what you want but you are claiming that God let’s 25000 children die each day. Why do you believe that? If I made the same claim against you, what would you say?

        • -1 vote

          @docians: You are made in the image of God, you showed me verse showing how to treat poor. So stop complaining. You debating me won't help any children. Go volunteer for some charity organization. Instead of debating me, use that time trying to convince someone to donate money to help those children. And don't play the victim card I'm not saying you can solve the world problems on your own. But you can make a difference. And no you are here to debate, you don't care if God exists. Whether he exist or not will not make a change for you. Debating me won't make a difference. If you feel sorry for them go help. Stop complaining.

        • +1 vote

          @docians: you must believe God exist if you believe he is letting children die. You can’t have it both ways.

        •  

          @mgh4me: The Atheist argument: God does not exist and I hate him.

        •  

          @gto21: I love the one where they claim that to believe in God is like believing in the mythical tooth fairy. If they can show me the same evidence supporting the existence of the tooth fairy as there is for a God I will start putting my teeth under the pillow when they fall out. However there is strong evidence to support the existence of the tooth fairy. My 5 year old grandson said that he put his tooth under the pillow and when he woke up the next morning the tooth was gone and $10 was in its place. Maybe it does exist. However not here to engage with the atheist but to find out why the lost soul thinks God let’s children die.

        • +1 vote

          @cobyau: Actually, it's your fault and mine they die of bone cancer. What about car crashes? What about terrorists that behead people? What about someone that buys drugs to deliberately overdose? Do you expect God to make every car about to crash fly over each other; beam every gun out of terrorists' hands; make the needle snap off upon every attempted injection?

          This would require us - you - being a ROBOT. Without any ability to make your own choices. The 10 year old that thinks it fun to jump off a garage roof (my friends and I did this) would be caught by God in midair - 'foiled' every time they attempt it. And the objection would then be: "Stop controlling everything, God and just leave us alone and let things happen however they happen!" Um… Which is back to what we have now.

          Or perhaps you mean God should only stop or let 'bad' people die (terrorist) - but save all the 'innocent' (the person beheaded). So now, who is 'evil' and 'who' is innocent? The person that thinks this way would certainly say: "If I could go back in a time machine I'd kill Hitler as a child." Sure, ok - I can accept that. But tell us all how do you KNOW know that little bone cancer boy wasn't going to grow up to be like Hitler: molest his daughter, get drunk and beat his wife to death, pay more than a current ozbargain deal? Or it were a girl - have 20 abortions, or poison her husband for the insurance money? YOU - don't.

          So you want it both ways. First you blame God for not eliminating evil. Then you blame God for not preventing death. This is BIPOLAR.

          So in your strange ideal world - the 'conditions' under which you'll accept there's a God - YOU must want to judge who deserves to live and die (because evil people shouldn't live, or they'll hurt 'good' people, right?) - and any time the result doesn't please YOU exactly, you'll blame and deny God.

          Thus God has to fit only what YOU think God should be (and no one else's opinion on this matters) - you want to make God your robot - a genie in a bottle that must obey your every whim, and let you do everything you want to do. But if you do anything you want without consequence… that is going to infringe on someone else - making YOU a tyrant. So by your own logic God should eliminate you for our good.

          There are people like that throughout history - Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. - despots in third world nations with money and power, who steal, rape, and murder… So you want God to give everyone the same power - little Hitlers (and some WILL become Hitlers). Either that, or you want God to constantly intervene.

          In other words you can't have it both ways. Either God is your robot - and thus why bother knowing him - just punch a button when you want something, which gives you unlimited power - which many people would then use for evil… Or, you want God to make YOU a robot - which you would then bitch and whine is unfair. Which leaves the only SENSIBLE option as… what we have now.

          BTW… We DID have that perfect world. With ONE rule. Why a rule at all? For the very reasons above:

          a) So there wasn't an endless list of do's and dont's - no one could say it wasn't easy to follow, and everything would have been perfect forever. (No bone cancer children.)
          b) So we still had our own CHOICE thus we weren't robots, and God wasn't a tyrant
          c) So God wasn't OUR robot making many of us, tyrants

          And we chose wrong. In Eve and Adam. And if you want to say, "But I didn't choose." All of us were in Adam, and if you faced that simple one-rule choice today, you'd also make the same error. Otherwise you're that robot. And if no rule existed, God is our robot - and we would then force our will against each other.

          Note with 'b' above - some call God a tyrant for cancer, for hell… but what THEY want God to be is the real tyrant (a robot or a robot owner).

          Also note, while you say God should just give us your ideal - you actually DO have the ability to have it. We could have it right now if everyone became Christians (real ones of course - not in name only).

          So YOU GO FIRST so others will follow.

          Oops, that's right - that's what Christians are trying to do - give you all the ideal you say you should have out of one side of your mouths - but do nothing to achieve it and giving excuses why you don't really want it after all, out of the other.

          Instead you might pout and whine God doesn't give it to you right now - your way - which would require God FORCING it upon you if it varies from my ideal. So again - your choice. Man up! Either you told the truth and you really do want that kind of world - or else you lied, you really don't, meaning you're responsible for evil you blame God for, which continues because some people are waiting until they see you change.

          Don't expect God to give it to you without effort or responsibility on your part. That's like people who bludge on welfare, never work though they can, always expecting government to fill their bank account by siphoning yours every fortnight without an ounce of gratitude. Yes, in this example it happens, but look at what kind of people having things handed to you without effort creates.

          And if we don't achieve the ideal now, we're guaranteed it later by living like we do want it now. In the meantime living a better life now.

          Time to man up.

        • -2 votes

          @gto21:I don't believe Darth Vader is real, but I still hate him.

          The Christian argument: this magical being that I have no way of knowing exists, not just any magical being but the specific one described in this very old, self-contradictory book written by a group of bronze-age goat herders, have no evidence for, have no rational reason for believing in but believe in anyway with 100% certainty, but is by all accounts alleged to have been a really, really bad and morally bankrupt genocidal entity even if it did exist, is definitely a being I want to devote my life to worship, and to force its alleged teachings upon others in my society.

        • -1 vote

          @Oracle128: you don't believe Darth Vader is real? Or you KNOW Darth Vader is not real? Lol. Maybe try to figure this one out before you try to figure out something more complex. 😁

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          @gto21: I reject the claim that he is real to a high degree of certainty, just like I reject the claim that your God is real to a high degree of certainty.
          I don't claim "absolute certainty" of either, but I proportion my belief in it according to the evidence available and how extraordinary the claim is, among other factors. Which is to say, a single, old, contradictory and demonstrably false book that makes ridiculous supernatural claims in the case of God; or a plethora of coherent, consistent stories whose only outlandish claim is the existence of technology beyond that we currently have, in the case of Darth Vader.
          There, I figured it out, wasn't that hard. There's more evidence of Darth Vader than there is of the Christian God.

          I don't see what that has to do with my point, which obviously flew over your head, that a person can both not believe a fictional character really exists, and have an emotional response to the idea of it. You must have a really sad life if you don't feel anything when you read/hear/watch fictional content. Or you need to find better literary sources.

          Did you figure out that your God doesn't exist yet? Maybe do that, before forcing its supposed teachings on others.

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          @Oracle128: You make a claim you have more evidence for Darth Vader than the Christian God. Can you share the evidence please? and some reputable scientist/historian/scholars affirming those evidence?

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          @Oracle128: Really I'm the one with a sad life because I don't hate a fictional character in Star Wars LOL.

    •  

      The 'Christian' that doesn't understand that isn't 'lapsed' - they never were one in the first place. They were just a person that went into a church building sometimes. Walking into a building with church on the sign outside doesn't make someone Christian, any more than standing in a car dealership makes them a Maserati. It may have been your fault, or may have been the church leaders fault - for not studying, or teaching and training - either way, they still weren't one.

  • +1 vote

    Those " Boot Camp" videos are very long-winded.

    The basic logic of religious faith is summarised in this parable: "Kissing Hank's ass".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaFZQBb2srM

    Would you risk losing a million dollars over a little kissing?

    • -1 vote

      Is it good for parents to impose rule and regulations on their children and discipline them when they misbehave? The children might not fully comprehend why their parent do certain things at the moment. However the parent knows the disciple, the rule and regulation will help the child becoming a decent citizen later in life. And does the parent have the right to kick them out of the house once they are adults especially if they keep misbehaving?

      • +2 votes

        Are the parents god?
        Do they say this to the child, or has the child never met his parents, and only knows about them from older children, who tell the littler kids that the parents are watching, and what the rules are. And the children live in fear that the parents, whom they've never seen, will torture them for eternity if they disobey the laws handed down bu the older kids?

        • -1 vote

          Is God name Hank? Did God say kiss his ass?

        •  

          @gto21:

          Don't know about Hank but at Sunday school I was taught that God made me to love him and serve him

          I was born with original sin, and therefore spend the rest of my life on Earth begging forgiveness

          Christ did die for my sins, yet I still have to go and confess that I am a sinner.

          Sounds a bit kissy assy to me if I want to make it to heaven!

        • -1 vote

          @docians: Also, show me where it says you need to BEG for forgiveness?

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          @docians:
          I never could understand in Sunday school why human sacrifice was required for redemption. Why God could not just forgive us anyway.
          The teacher got annoyed when I asked.
          I guess you need to understand the context of the culture at the wild fringes of the Roman Empire in 1st century Judea. Animal sacrifice to appease the gods was still widely practised.

        • +1 vote

          @manic:

          as gto21 would say it is not for us to know, but God's will, for he works in mysterious ways!

        • -1 vote

          @docians: no it's not what I would say, don't misrepresent me.

        • +1 vote

          @manic: Why do judicial systems impose penalties for crime. It is called justice.

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          @manic: The relationship between sacrifice and redemption is a central theme in the bible and clearly spelt out. Maybe your teacher had just stared their role.

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          @manic: your obviously confused over the difference between man making sacrifices to God and God making a sacrifice for us.

        •  

          Or maybe the teacher was wondering why smartalecs come when they're clearly not interested or serious about being there.

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          @GregMonarch:
          I was born into it, so still actually believed in ten impossible things before breakfast back then.
          Amazing how long it took from realising the teachers were repeating a lot of inconsistent nonsense, until questioning the basic premise of it all.

          Some of it was just misunderstanding. There is real wisdom in the bible, and it helps if you can understands the history and culture of the time in which it was written. Some of that wisdom is dated, and clashes with our modern values (actually even in the gospels, Jesus deals with the conflicting values of his time, and when the Torah was written), some holds true today.

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          @manic: Not sure what 10 impossible etc. refers to. But it's not God/the Bible that's the problem - it's the people teaching/learning it.

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          @GregMonarch:

          Not sure what 10 impossible etc. refers to

          It was a Lewis Carroll mis-quote from Through the Looking-Glass.
          He was a mathematician, logician, and Anglican deacon. Awesome mind.

        •  

          @gto21:

          show me where it says you need to BEG for forgiveness?

          did I mention that it was quoted in the Bible?

        •  

          @docians: so it's not biblical?

        •  

          @gto21:
          I've never met a Christian who actually follows the gospel.

          Jesus is very clear that you should dispose of all your worldly possessions and care not for the future.
          This makes sense if you believe the end of the world is imminent.

  •  

    Not again! Stop spreading fake news!

  • +5 votes

    Amazing, the power of discounting something to free.

    So many free videos on YouTube that I will never pay attention to, but discount some videos from $40 to free and I sign up for them.

    Yours,
    Atheist.

    PS I'm kind of interested in their argument and approach but not enough to watch them now (or anytime soon I suspect).

  • +3 votes

    Had a quick look through the first vid…nothing groundbreaking or particularly interesting in there. Just the usual rubbish "proving" god's existence - easy enough to refute with a little research and some critical thought.

    • -4 votes

      If you want rubbish… and to learn about a faith-based belief system - research evolution for a while. ;-)

      • +1 vote

        Evolution is so "rubbish" that many religions are starting to accept the truth of it.

        But, Greg, I guess that you must belong to the only true religion, and the others are wrong on this.

        • -1 vote

          Every religion? Believing in God is so "rubbish" about half the scientist in the world believe in the concept of God. (no exactly half, a bit more or less telling from memory)

        • +1 vote

          @gto21:
          It depends what field - social sciences is very different from physics.

          But choosing to belong to a religion is not the same as saying you saw evidence of god down a microscope, or a digital signature in our DNA. Their subjective belief in God is very different from their objective but flexible belief in science.

        •  

          @manic: long time ago gems could not be observed, does not mean it never existed before the invention of the microscope.

        • +1 vote

          @gto21: You probably need to have a good hard think about why that's such terrible reasoning.

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          @dm01: Before we had the technology if you tell people you have tiny living organism everywhere you just don't see them they won't believe you. Many will think your crazy. Another example we know very little about dark matter and dark energy. We can't even see it. But yet many scientists believe it exists. I don't see how your "microscope" argument is a good one.

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