Received $448 Red Light Camera Penalty (NSW)

addicted on 12/09/2018 - 18:22
Last edited 12/09/2018 - 18:34 by 1 other user

Hi guys,

I received fine for jumping red light. Here are the pics. The grey vehicle turning left is mine. Here are the sequence of events:

  • I turned left when the lights were still yellow.
  • While turning left, realised that the vehicle in front of me is too close to comfort and braked and slowed down my vehicle.
  • The lights turned red when I still had not completed my turn. From the images provided, looks like the rear tyres of my vehicle triggered the camera.

I was under the impression that if your front tyres cross the stop line while lights are still yellow, you are safe.

What are your opinions, should I contest the fine, and it yes, how can I do that?

Automotive

Comments

      • abb on 14/09/2018 - 11:51
        +1

        We should lobby for the power to hand out tickets in exchange for a 10% cut, I'd be a millionaire.

  • [Deactivated] on 12/09/2018 - 20:07
    -3

    i think the op needs to spend extra on ozbargain deals and use cashrewards to cover this fine.

    spend money to save money to throw away money!

  • [Deactivated] on 12/09/2018 - 20:15
    +5

    bad luck, same happened to me twenty years ago. I just paid and moved on, changed my driving style around lights. Never had another red light infringement.

  • peterpeterpumpkin on 12/09/2018 - 20:58
    +3

    Had OP reversed the car would they reverse the fine?

    • [Deactivated] on 12/09/2018 - 21:31
      +2

      would trigger the sensor again, so double the fine :P

      • orangetrain on 14/09/2018 - 13:07

        If a car is behind you, means jackpot!

    • dcep on 12/09/2018 - 22:46

      there will be no fine issued

      i skidded over redlight once, flash got triggered but i reversed back and no fine received.

      • Eeples on 15/09/2018 - 08:17

        That’s good to know.

    • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 14/09/2018 - 01:14
      +1

      only if they are Indian. Reversingh…

    • dust on 14/09/2018 - 08:55
      +1

      It would have been reversed. This is why they have two photos (to show that the car continued through the intersection).

  • Lexan on 13/09/2018 - 05:43
    +4

    It happened to my cousin too. Turning right instead of left. And one car ahead of him.
    I think the law is 2nd car shouldn't move forward until the 1st has made its turn.

  • hornoscous on 13/09/2018 - 08:21
    +2

    NSW Road Rules states:

    56 Stopping for a red traffic light or arrow
    (1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a red traffic light must stop:
    (a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop line, or
    (b) if there is a stop here on red signal sign at or near the traffic lights, but no stop line—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the sign, or
    (c) if there is no stop line or stop here on red signal sign at or near the traffic lights—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the nearest or only traffic lights,
    and must not proceed past the stop line, stop here on red signal sign or nearest or only traffic lights (as the case may be) until the traffic lights show a green or flashing yellow traffic light or no traffic light.
    Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

    Under rule 56 1a, I wouldn't think they would see this as a case worthy of exception. We all make mistakes, this is just a $448 one. I would cop it on the chin, learn from it and move on. Its a good thing you saved all that money on eneloops or it might have been expensive!

    • addicted on 13/09/2018 - 08:42

      Thank you, 10 years of driving in NSW, no fines until last month and then two in two successive months 😢

      • Baysew on 13/09/2018 - 11:47
        +2

        Explains username.

      • one man clan on 14/09/2018 - 10:05

        Are you me? Had this happen about 3 years ago - low range speeding fine from a fixed camera - like $90 and then a month later a eerily similar red light fine. If you've had a clean record for 10 years they can wave the first fine.

        • pegaxs on 14/09/2018 - 11:46

          If you've had a clean record for 10 years they can wave the first fine.

          From the State Revenue office website: (Regarding camera offences and leniency)

          Requests for leniency
          Generally, Revenue NSW cannot consider leniency for certain offences where safety is an issue. These include:

          • Red light offences
  • jm48 on 13/09/2018 - 12:38

    Do they give you a photo of moment the light turns red ?

    • addicted on 13/09/2018 - 17:47
      +1

      no, they give two pics, one when the camera is triggered and the second one after a while to provide more details.

  • elf888 on 13/09/2018 - 13:25

    What if you are at the situation at photo 1 waiting for pedestrian to cross the road all the green and yellow light, and then you move on once they crossed.
    It was red when moving on, will the camera flash?

  • JimmyF on 13/09/2018 - 14:46

    if you are at the situation at photo 1

    there is a good car length in front of the OP car in photo 1 and the cross way.

    It was red when moving on, will the camera flash?

    Ummm yes, You're not in the intersection unless all wheels are in.

    • Euphemistic on 13/09/2018 - 16:33
      +1

      No, you are in the intersection if you cross the line. You are not permitted to cross the line on a red light - with any wheels. If you are already across the line when the lights change, you must continue on. A review of the pictures from the camera would find there is no offence in the situation described by elf888

      • JimmyF on 13/09/2018 - 18:40
        +1

        You are not permitted to cross the line on a red light - with any wheels.

        Or yellow light unless if its unsafe to stop ;)

        If you are already across the line when the lights change, you must continue on

        No such road rule.

        If the OP stopped where they had been in picture 1 and didn't move, no red light ticket would have been issued.

        A review of the pictures from the camera would find there is no offence in the situation described by elf888

        elf888 described what the OP did, so yes to a offence. The entire vechile needs to be over the line not to cause a ticket.

        • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 07:10

          No such road rule.
          If the OP stopped where they had been in picture 1 and didn't move, no red light ticket would have been issued.

          Correct, it isn’t a red light ticket, but Rule 57, Part 3. look it up, if you cross the line into an intersection, you must leave the intersection as soon as safe to do so. There is a link somewhere up the top.

          I Learned that one the hard way, when I failed my learners many years ago. Moved forward on a green right arrow, then didn’t continue through when the traffic didn’t clear and the light went red.

  • mike59 on 13/09/2018 - 18:17
    +3

    As a serving Police officer who used to adjudicate these the law prohibits a vehicle from entering an intersection or marked foot with any part of the vehicle once the traffic light/arrow has turned red.

    The images clearly show your vehicle has entered the marked foot crossing part of the intersection 0.9secs after the light turned red.

    The offence is one of strict liability meaning all the prosecution has to prove is that you were the driver and you committed the offence.

    Pay the fine and move on.

    The chances of winning this if it went to Court are nil

    • RocketSwitch on 14/09/2018 - 13:46
      -1

      I don't think it's nil, what if you didn't see it turn amber the split second it did? We're not robots after all and we're talking seconds here. Some courts still have some humanity left in them.

      • tranter on 14/09/2018 - 14:49
        -1

        It's not nil. Another commenter said their wife got off by writing a letter.

      • rave75 on 14/09/2018 - 17:09
        -1

        so your argument is if you don't see it, you are not obligated to pay the fine? Dude……….

        "The light was red, but since I didn't see it, I can pass it without getting a fine"

        • RocketSwitch on 15/09/2018 - 22:31

          Maybe you should say that to the judge that let's people off. See how you go.

          It's an argument for court. It's the judges discretion. They can reduce or let anyone off or not.

          Humans make the rules. You know it's not as black and white as you make it.

          If it is, why can you contest it then? Give me a good argument for that.

    • tranter on 14/09/2018 - 14:48

      What would have happened if the vehicle was stationary in photo 1 and had entered before the light turned red and had not continued through the intersection?

      Still a red light infringement?

      • Eeples on 15/09/2018 - 08:21

        I think if he had reversed back he would have been okay.

        That is why there are two photos.

        • Euphemistic on 15/09/2018 - 17:14
          +1

          Reversing back is not a good idea. It is likely to cause more dramas with following traffic.

  • squaredonut on 13/09/2018 - 20:51
    +3

    Nice car OP, and wow the images are pretty high resolution. I'm surprised they don't censor out faces of people.

  • machej on 13/09/2018 - 21:00

    It's a great way to keep the population safe. I don't think they'll let you get out of it.

  • [Deactivated] on 13/09/2018 - 22:33
    +2

    Australia: the lucky country
    BUT there’s just one thing we all show distaste towards - PARKING FINES
    When you cross a red light, there’s an element of public endangerment. Speed camera; same thing. WHEN YOU PARK A CAR ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND HAVE TO PAY OVER $250 FOR EXISTING THAT IS NOT ALRIGHT.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 09:48
      +2

      i don't show distaste towards parking fines. if you find it that hard to read a sign and abide by the times specified, you deserve to be fined

      • RocketSwitch on 14/09/2018 - 13:43
        +2

        lol, have you seen some of the signs?

        • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 16:05

          yes, there are only a handful that are truly confusing, most clearly state 1 or 2 time periods and the parking restrictions during those times.

  • Kranbone on 13/09/2018 - 22:36

    Just to confirm, amber still means stop if safe to do so, right?

    • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 07:16

      Yes, but a minor point is that the rule says you must stop unless unsafe. Subtle difference, but it’s like the general understanding of ‘right of way’ that does not exist in the law, only the responsibility to give way.

  • Flanders on 13/09/2018 - 22:58
    +3

    I took similar matter to court (I had nothing to lose by doing so) .
    Basically the magistrate emphasized the fact that I had 3-4 seconds on yellow light, to have stopped and asked me why I did not stop. I explained that perhaps I didn't see the light at the exact microseconds etc it went on, then when I did see it, maybe took a second or 2 to consider stopping etc, something along those lines was my answer.
    Anyway, there was 1 or 2 others in court for minor traffic offenses who got off. Basically the only way they might let you off this 1 time, is if you have an extensive good driving history ie. If you haven't had any offenses in 10 years, then you get 1 offense, they can let you off.
    I found out the hard way, not meant to travel through a yellow light at all, even though many other drivers do it. Suspension for me, as I was on provisional license at the time. Magistrate changed from 3 months to 1 month on the suspension.

  • pegaxs on 13/09/2018 - 23:06
    -2

    I turned left when the lights were still yellow.

    Hahahahaha…. no, no you didn’t. But thanks for playing.

    I don’t know if this is trolling or not…

    Not only should you pay the fine, you should hand in your license and sell your car. This was utter negligence. You saw the yellow a good 30 to 40 metres back. You could have killed someone stepping out onto the crossing at the corner. Absolutely disgusting driving and total disregard for other people’s safety.

    • Mrgreenz on 14/09/2018 - 08:06
      -1

      What a squeezer

  • cashless on 13/09/2018 - 23:29

    Aaaahhh! So you were the idiot I saw turn left on the red the other day!
    I thought you’d come whining about it in the OzB forums after getting the fine notice!
    Join the club

    • nickxau on 14/09/2018 - 11:46
      +1

      So are you the one with the red or the black backpack?

  • jenny43cat on 14/09/2018 - 02:34

    It's always worth writing an apology/remorse letter, stating your previously perfect driving record.

    Promise you will be more careful in the future. Also mention your lack of funds.

    Look after your spelling and grammar, be genuinely contrite and send by snail mail on paper!

    Good luck!

    • thraks on 14/09/2018 - 10:07
      +1

      Going to be a bit hard to argue financial distress in a $60,000-70,000 car.

      • Yarkin on 14/09/2018 - 16:51

        Why? If I spent that much on a car, I'd be dead broke!

  • Geryatric on 14/09/2018 - 07:00

    Photos leave zero doubt - You ran the light.

  • jason101 on 14/09/2018 - 07:11

    If this situation occurred in SA you would not have received the fine:

    https://www.police.sa.gov.au/services-and-events/expiations/…

    *How the camera is triggered

    The camera is triggered when the sensors detect vehicles:

    exceeding the speed limit on a green, yellow or red light
entering the intersection on a red light.*
    • spaceflight on 15/09/2018 - 11:31

      That's how all red light cameras are triggered…

      The fine would have been issued in SA as the OP entered the intersection (crossed the white line) on a red light.

      Cameras use an induction loop that sits before the white line. If you leave this loop then you have entered the intersection and a photo is taken.

  • Danger on 14/09/2018 - 08:06
    +2

    I can see my ex-partner's white van in that picture who hasn't paid child support in ages. Help me narrow down the location.

    • harry2015 on 14/09/2018 - 14:34
      +1

      location is in the pictures

    • addicted on 16/09/2018 - 19:36

      lol..glad I could be of help :)

  • Austaurean on 14/09/2018 - 08:24
    +2

    its a shame they cant have a picture triggered at the last moment of it being amber and then, if its triggered by a vehicle, the image is saved with the 2 red light pics, it would give a clear indication of where the vehicle was just prior to the red.
    i.e. either travelled past the line or was it before the line, perhaps stuck in a situation where you cant proceed through, but was before the red.

    • SnoozeAndLose on 14/09/2018 - 09:08
      +1

      the camera need to keep flashing as it cant predict if the car will stop or keep going.

    • spaceflight on 15/09/2018 - 11:35

      If you are stationary and remain stationary (or back up) when the light turns red you will not receive a fine.

      You only get a photo taken when your car breaks the induction loop after the light turns red.

  • happirt on 14/09/2018 - 09:11
    +1

    "I was under the impression that if your front tyres cross the stop line while lights are still yellow, you are safe."

    looks like no one is safe on the road with you driving on it.

  • giventofly on 14/09/2018 - 09:17

    I think it's pretty fair how they configure these. You attempted to cross whilst in the late stages of yellow instead of slowing down.

    Sorry, dude.

    • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 09:53
      +1

      Yeah, nah. Left it too late and crossed on the red. Not ‘late yellow’, red.

  • ipiok on 14/09/2018 - 09:28

    haha, people who drive a car should really learn the road rules better…. it's not about making it through before the red, it's stopping if it's safe to do so on yellow.. if the yellow had just changed and you honestly had no time to stop, you would have easily made it through in the 4 second window… pay the fine and drive more responsibly next time. Damn those cameras are high resolution.

  • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 09:55

    After reading this thread yesterday, I approached a set of lights last night and they went orange. I remembered the rule about stopping unless unsafe and ended up performing a seatbelt check for the kids I stopped that hard. True, it wasn’t an unsafe stop, but only because there was no one behind.

    Moral of the story: sometimes we get it wrong, for different reasons. OP should have stopped and didn’t, I probably should have kept going.

    • Eeples on 15/09/2018 - 08:27

      You could have stopped less harshly and reversed back, I think.

  • solidussnake on 14/09/2018 - 09:59
    +1

    Typical BMW drivers… Pay the fine Im sure you can afford it.

    • thraks on 14/09/2018 - 10:04

      Definitely not surprised it's an X series. See it all the time.

  • thraks on 14/09/2018 - 10:03
    +1

    Sorry mate, definitely nothing to contest here. Very familiar with this intersection, there's a lot of foot traffic in the area with multiple schools around the immediate area and high pedestrian activity because of the TAFE and the shops, you won't catch any sympathy on this one.

    Pay up, move on, stop trying to catch lights - the minute you save is never worth the fine.

  • mctubster on 14/09/2018 - 10:32

    My wife got off the same exact offence by writing a letter apologising (NSW). It prob helped that she is a cautious driver, was mortified that she missed the orange/red and had a clean driving record of 15+ years. Some kind of section? exemption was still on the record but no fine or points.

    • pegaxs on 14/09/2018 - 11:04
      -1

      My wife got off the same exact offence

      Not convinced…

      From the State Revenue office website: (Regarding camera offences and leniency)

      Requests for leniency
      Generally, Revenue NSW cannot consider leniency for certain offences where safety is an issue. These include:

      • Red light offences
      • mctubster on 14/09/2018 - 13:59

        What can I say, she did - I saw their reply.

        Approx 4 years ago, I remember losing my shit because she had our baby in the back as well as wasting money.

        If you don't ask there is zero chance of getting.

        It definitely worked because the next time she renewed her license she got the 50% discount.

      • rave75 on 14/09/2018 - 16:15

        it was based on leniency with a perfect driving record of 15+ years. I think the minimum is 10 years and they will give you a leniency for first offence.

  • field1985 on 14/09/2018 - 10:54
    +1

    Are you for real?
    "I turned left when the lights were still yellow."
    No you didn't. Stop wasting our time and pay the fine. FFS

    • addicted on 16/09/2018 - 19:41
      -2

      Hey bud, the camera triggers when it detects your vehicle has reached sensor and the light has turned red. The first photo indicates that my rear wheel triggered the camera. If I would have ran a red, my front wheels would have triggered the camera.

      • field1985 on 16/09/2018 - 23:16

        "The first photo indicates that my rear wheel triggered the camera." Incorrect

        Where do you think the sensor is located? In the white line?

        The sensor it is located exactly where your FRONT wheels are. Over a metre past the line, to prevent false positives.

        Its also not a pressure sensor, it is electromagnetic and detects any ferrous metal, so it was probably triggered by your radiator.

        The first photo was taken when you drove onto the sensor, the second photo was taken when you drove off the sensor

        • Euphemistic on 17/09/2018 - 06:27

          Having worked on intersections, I have never seen a sensor loop in the intersection (ie past the line) except as a right turn sensor. As far as so know, the sensor loop is under where the first car would stop behind the line. The sensor then detects if there is movement (ie car, then no car) just after the red signal and takes two photos just after the light goes red.

          Digital cameras might work differently, using digital technology to detect motion in a predefined area then taking a photo, not using sensors loops at all. This tech is capable of determining speed too.

        • pegaxs on 17/09/2018 - 09:07

          @field1985

          it is electromagnetic and detects any ferrous metal, so it was probably triggered by your radiator.

          Radiators are usually made up of aluminium and plastic on modern cars, such as the BMW in the photo. If not, they are also made of copper… both of which are non-ferrous materials… It's more than likely picking up on things like the front suspension components and chassis rails.

          And as one other users has said in this thread, the red light cameras are usually triggers when the car "leaves" the induction loop that is under the road where you would normally stop. It senses your car there and if it suddenly vanishes during the red cycle of the lights, it will take a photo. So, basically, the loop under where you would normally park is testing to see that the car is still there while the red is on.

        • field1985 on 17/09/2018 - 09:33
          +1

          @Euphemistic:

          The red-light sensor is in the middle of the pedestrian crossing, about 2 metres past the stop line.. You can see it yourself in google streetview:
          https://imgur.com/a/Z3yW0R5

        • field1985 on 17/09/2018 - 09:46

          @pegaxs:

          Agree 99%, only point I would raise:

          "So, basically, the loop under where you would normally park is testing to see that the car is still there while the red is on."

          Red-light camera's have a separate sensor, ie they don't just rely on the one "where you would normally park" to trigger the lights to go green.

          If you ride a bike/motorbike you will see them in the road surface. One sensor is there to trigger the traffic lights, another sensor which is placed past the solid white stop line (https://imgur.com/a/Z3yW0R5), triggers the cameras.

          This is to avoid any ambiguity like the OP is trying to claim (because they don't understand this).

        • Euphemistic on 17/09/2018 - 10:07
          +1

          @field1985: fair enough, I can see them loops are there probably to help determine which lane the vehicle triggering is in. I guess where I’ve done the roadworks we don’t have a lot of red light cameras!

          As for triggering them, I used to ride a bicycle with a main carbon frame across one particular intersection and trigger the lights every time. It doesn’t take a lot of metal to trigger some loops if you are in the correct position.

  • luffyex2010 on 14/09/2018 - 10:58

    Orange lights - get ready to brake or to most/majority of people its I can still make it

    You can never estimate how fast are the orange lights going to change and especially when there are car/s in front of you, most people just take a chance without looking/considering if they are going to block the traffic.

    But with a camera installed area, hey smile, you are on camera ^_^

    Sydney Drivers (You are informed of the camera location )-
    Majority drive above the speed limit unless there is a sign of camera, camera ahead or signs speed monitoring on the road. Most just slow down for the sake of not getting a fine and then accelerate back to normal when they are out of the camera zone.

    Melbourne Drivers (It seems that the cameras are hidden and there is hardly any camera signs when I was driving there for the first time)-
    It's a bit different as majority drive below or at the speed limit … as you never know where the camera or you are being recorded.
    (The feeling is strange like you are in a slow-mo area but you can tell that at that speed, you can prevent an accident easily)

    • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 11:58
      +2

      You can never estimate how fast are the orange lights going to change

      Actually you can. There are standard times for the orange lights based speed limit and traffic volumes.

      • luffyex2010 on 14/09/2018 - 12:40

        OK didn't know that but with a counter would be much easier visually.

        • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 12:46
          +2

          Putting a counter on it would reduce the effectiveness. The time allows for heavy vehicles to stop and for reaction times of drivers. Changing it to a count down would only increase the number of cars chasing a ‘late yellow’.

        • luffyex2010 on 14/09/2018 - 13:46

          @Euphemistic:

          Hmm you do have a point there with NSW driver behaviour…….might actually cause more accidents lol

  • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 11:42

    448 for a red light is ridiculous tho.

    • pegaxs on 14/09/2018 - 11:58

      I agree. Way to low. Should be $1,488.

      Running through a red is not the same as doing 5km/h over the limit or parking backwards in a street. Running a yellow or red light has the potential to kill people.

      How would you feel if OP ran that red as one of your kids walked out onto the road? Is $488 to much then?

      And I bet that next time OP goes to blast through a yellow/red light, that they think twice about doing it.

      • RocketSwitch on 14/09/2018 - 14:25

        Should be instant loss of license.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 15:37
        -2

        Why stop there. I say put them in jail for 10 years to life.

    • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 11:59
      +3

      Yeah, should be loss of licence.

      • luffyex2010 on 14/09/2018 - 12:41

        that's way too harsh.

        P plate for 10 years probation would be ideal ^o^

  • apple2016 on 14/09/2018 - 13:21

    I was under the impression that if your front tyres cross the stop line while lights are still yellow, you are safe.

    The camera gets triggered if any part of your car in behind the stop line when the light turns red.

  • OneJay on 14/09/2018 - 13:22

    Off-topic, How to beat a speed camera

  • idonotknowwhy on 14/09/2018 - 13:40
    +2

    How did they find you with that black square you put over your numberplate?

    • Euphemistic on 14/09/2018 - 13:49

      Big brother just checks the GPS logs collected by the vehicle manufacturers.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 13:59

        what if my car doesn't have GPS?

        • nickxau on 14/09/2018 - 14:08

          … little did you know…

        • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 14:15

          @nickxau: i'd make a killing selling tin foil hats these days

        • idonotknowwhy on 14/09/2018 - 14:57

          @b0rat: Do you do cars? I'd like to coat my entire car in tinfoil please. And make sure both number plates are totally covered.

        • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 20:29

          @idonotknowwhy: i'll even do the windscreen, paint it black and call it a BURKA COMBO DEAL for your car

    • addicted on 16/09/2018 - 19:42

      thats a paint job mate, I am hiding the number plate, in case pun was not intended!

  • kashxpert on 14/09/2018 - 14:56

    I'm just impressed by picture quality.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2018 - 20:29

      me to, at first glance i thought it was a video game. GTA VI: red light stories?

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