Help deciding where to put Cable Internet / NBN HFC wall plate and modem

isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 04:32
Last edited 08/10/2018 - 20:39

I am hoping to leverage the wisdom here to help me figure out what to instruct the ISP technicians to do when they come for my HFC installation this week. I've had private cablers attend but they haven't really been able to give me the advice I need.

Quick Summary:
* NBN box already installed on 2nd storey near master bedroom (but NBN connection not available yet)
* Living area (main media area) and study nook is downstairs
* Where should the ISP technician install the HFC modem/wall plate? (The first ISP technician put it in the 'too hard' basket)

Floor Plan Annotated With Connection Points

House Details:
* Modern 2 storey brick veneer. We have only just bought & moved in.
* Preferred installation point is downstairs (relatively central) as we have a study nook here with existing phone point, however, a previous Telstra tech and some private cablers have suggested this is not feasible
* NBN (HFC) is scheduled to be available for connection at our address in July 2019
* A bit of a distraction: Since we placed the order for cable the overhead lead in line (for NBN HFC) was connected to the house (annoyingly this one done while the house was under contract before we had moved in), but significantly, the lead in cable was connected in a position that might end up dictating where we can connect the modem
* This is where I am looking for help…

NBN HFC Lead In Cable
* Is located slightly above 2nd floor level on the side wall outside master bedroom at front of house
* The master bedroom is directly above garage
* Currently there is no connections from the NBN box into the house
* (We're pretty unhappy with the NBN box installation, as it is the opposite side from all existing lead in cables and has resulted in the lead in cable crossing the front of the house when previously there was none, also cutting off our views)

location of HFC lead in
different angle
close up of HFC lead in

House Layout / Existing Cabling
* 2 storey house - 4 bed & 1 living upstairs, open plan living downstairs
* 2 phone points - one downstairs in our "study nook" and the other in the upstairs main bedroom. The entry conduit for these run underground from the street and into a telstra wall box at ground level (on the opposite side of house from the NBN box) Edit: Just pulled the telephone wall plate off. This is what I have behind http://imgur.com/a/xAsszND
* 5 tv points (running off basic splitter - not powered) - 2 downstairs at rear of house, 3 upstairs (different ends of house, not directly above either downstairs point)
* No network cabling

Floor Plan Annotated With Connection Points
Master Bedroom
Study Nook

Network Equipment Available
* Telstra Smart Modem - we currently have this in the downstairs study nook and the wifi is working reasonably well upstairs
* TP-Link AV2000 Network Over Power - using qathis currently from the downstairs study nook to the upstairs PC location
* Netgear Nighthawk D7000 Router (with built in ADSL modem) - I think we can use this for it's high range wifi router on the other level

Considerations
* Telstra cable installation takes 2 parts that could potentially be in different places (provided we can run ethernet cable between the 2 locations)
* The small cable adapter box that plugs into the HFC
* A separate telstra smart modem that connects to the cable box via Ethernet
* Wifi strength
* I feel like having the main wifi downstairs & central gives us best overall coverage
* However, I expect that we may have to use our Nighthawk router on the other floor (e.g. at the other end of the power over ethernet), or use a mesh or other range extenders
* If we have to connect our wifi modem upstairs, I'm concerned this might substantially limit the benefits we get from cable / NBN HFC
* Roof Access
* Due to roof pitch, techs that have visited have indicated that getting access to the roof cavity above the NBN box location is likely to be tight/difficult
* Internet / Media Requirements
* With Router
* * Ideally we can hook a NAS into the main router, either using usb drive attached to modem or NAS over ethernet. Mainly for backups and viewing photo library, and possibly cloud syncing
* Downstairs
* Lounge: Smart TV, Streaming Box, Possible gaming box
* Sometimes work downstairs
* Upstairs
* 1x PC (ethernet preferred over wifi)
* 2x Smart TV / 2x Streaming Box
* Possible gaming box

NBN Assumption
* I am assuming NBN HFC configuration will be the same as Telstra Cable - i.e. cable box separate from wifi modem router?
* Which one does NBN telephone plug into and should we be considering the location of this also?

Preferences
* From a "that just makes sense" point of view, installing in our downstairs study nook (where the main phone point is) would be good
* Otherwise, I suppose some options could be:
* Lounge room (hide away in tv cabinet)
* Master bedroom walk in robe (no electricity points though)
* Garage
* Dining room (e.g on dining buffet)
* Master bedroom

Internet

Comments

  • whooah1979 on 08/10/2018 - 05:27

    The master bedroom is the easiest, quickest and the least amount of holes in your walls. Any other location may require more time, visible conduits and lots of holes.

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 08:49

      Thanks. Not ideal to have equipment in master, but repercussions of alternatives could be pretty rubbish as you say. Maybe a reasonable compromise is the walk in robe?

      Any thoughts on how this will impact the usefulness of the wifi e.g. in lounge?

  • Godric on 08/10/2018 - 07:44

    Garage

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 09:22

      Thanks Godric. Any thoughts on how a garage install would affect wifi signal e.g. in lounge and upstairs tv points?

      • Godric on 08/10/2018 - 12:51

        Mines in the garage, just put in a patch panel in the study and where needed either used powerline or another router to what ever room

  • jimbobaus on 08/10/2018 - 09:16

    When nbn co comes out they will place the wall plate on the internal wall that the external box is located on. They will use a maximum of 1mtr if cable. If you want the point moved somewhere else you will need to get an nbn certified technician out to do the work.
    You don’t get to request where it goes when nbbco attend.

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 09:21

      Thanks

      Just to clarify it's actually Telstra coming to install cable internet as NBN is still 12 months away (confusing I know), it's just that the required lead in to the house has already been installed (by nbnco)

      An NBN certified technician is a good idea, I'll make some calls

    • EightImmortals on 08/10/2018 - 10:09

      That was my understanding as well. When they did our place the wouldn't install the NTD in the room I wanted in so in the end I just ran some Cat6 to where I needed it.

  • hawkeye on 08/10/2018 - 10:04
    +2

    Get a roofy pull 2 roof sheets back run coax down to the GPO for NBN entry and tie over to the tv point. Then pull through all coax with 2 x cat 6 cables to all other tv outlets.
    If it was me I'd run 2 coax TV/NBN to the living area and run the NTD from there.
    If your real lucky the sparkies may have already run cat6 with the coax but never terminated to the plate

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 11:55

      Then pull through all coax with 2 x cat 6 cables to all other tv outlets.

      Assume with a draw string?

      If your real lucky the sparkies may have already run cat6 with the coax but never terminated to the plate

      Any suggestions as to how I might check this?

      If it was me I'd run 2 coax TV/NBN to the living area and run the NTD from there.

      I think that might be my preference also. Unfortunately that's about the furtherest point from the current NBN box (the GPO?) in the whole house.

      I only realised when I was writing the post that the living area is actually essentially only single storey (the top floor ends at about the edge of the kitchen) so maybe that could provide some benefit… Although I don't think there is a man hole in that lower level. I was thinking of getting a skylight in there maybe I can do cabling at the same time…

      • hawkeye on 08/10/2018 - 13:46

        Assume with a draw string?

        Buy another bit of coax the same length + bit more tape that and cat cable and pull it through then use old coax pulled through tape and repeat to the next.

        the GPO?

        General purpose outlet double power point near the NBN entry.
        Get a sparky to disconnect the GPO tape coax and pull it up to the roof so you have the coax making the circuit to all TV points. Use the same coax to return the power cables back and screw roof sheets back on.

        The side of the house where the NBn is mounted is only 7.5mm blue board and probably James Hardie easy lap above it.

        To check if there is any cat6 cable just unscrew a tv wall plate and have a look in the wall cavity

  • Some Human on 08/10/2018 - 10:16
    -1

    TLDR: OP bought a 2 story house

    Some Human on 08/10/2018 - 10:16 (Collapsed - Offtopic. Show)
    • altomic on 08/10/2018 - 14:18

      possibly in Brisbane

  • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 11:13

    Most likely, the installer is going to be a "take it or leave it" kind of guy. He's going to want to put the equipment in the easiest place possible for him - your plans don't matter. That's how NBNco works - anything that takes longer than the assigned time is going to cost the installer money, so they have no interest in doing it. That's usually what an installer means by "the too hard basket".

    I got the installer to put my HFC modem and router where I wanted it by running my own cable from the box on the outside wall to where I wanted the outlet. So, it didn't take him any longer and everyone was happy. I work in a related industry, so I know what I'm doing, but you will probably need to get a private cabler to do that for you.

    A brick veneer house is just about the easiest type of building to run cables in as long as you have a tiled roof and you want to put the outlet on an perimeter wall (that is, not on an internal wall). Where the outside walls are brick from the roof to the ground, there is space between the bricks and the internal plaster that cables can be run along and down. I haven't looked at your plans, but I haven't seen an "impossible" brick veneer house yet.

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 11:21

      Thanks. If you get 1 min take a quick look at these 3 pics:

      https://imgur.com/DErk51R
      https://imgur.com/AzFtRCc
      https://imgur.com/KBEb5wO

      • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 11:46

        That's such a dodgy installation job!

        Okay, first problem is that you said the house was brick veneer, and that part of the house clearly is not. I don't know what's inside the part of the house where the grey box is installed, maybe that leads into the cavity, but maybe not.

        Assuming the rest of the house is brick veneer (and I'm thinking that it's probably not - the houses on either side are not brick veneer), the best way to get that cable somewhere else in the house could be to run it back up into the roof and then down inside the wall somewhere else. I really can't tell anything else from the pictures.

        If the house is not brick veneer, that'll be why the installers gave you the "too hard" line.

        • whooah1979 on 08/10/2018 - 11:54

          run a 20mm telco conduit/corrugated along the outside wall.
          https://imgur.com/a/NnK7IdK

          affix the conduit to exterior wall using galvanised half saddles and exterior screws.

        • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 13:15

          That's such a dodgy installation job!

          I thought that. And unbelievably it was done after I'd put a contract on the home but before I moved in. And the cable runs right through our city views!!!!!

          brick veneer

          Not sure what the blue box that the NBN box is constructed of tbh

          The rest of the house is brick veneer though (the white boards are just cladding and painted areas are render)

          • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 17:04

            @isthisreallife22:

            the white boards are just cladding

            Cladding over bricks? That seems strange to me.

            Usually, if an upper area like that has boards like that, it's because the structure underneath it (ie the garage) can't support brickwork. And that seems possible in your case, given that according to your plans, that cladded side wall and the front wall above the garage isn't an extension of a lower wall, it's over open space and the door of the garage.

            I think it's unlikely that the clad area is bricks.

            • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 17:15

              @pjetson: You may well be right!

              Here are some photos of an almost identical house currently being built by the same builder in our neighborhood (although this one has a balcony in front of master)

              Early in build - frame only good reference for roof cavity
              Pre-cladding

              • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 19:27
                +1

                @isthisreallife22: I think it's pretty clear from the first photo that the master bedroom walls at least cannot be brick - there's nothing underneath to support the weight of the bricks!

                It's not clear to me how the second photo relates to your house. However, you can see from the second photo that the bricks always run from the ground to the roof - you can't start a brick wall halfway up, which is what would be happening if the side and front walls of the master bedroom in the first photo were brick.

            • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 17:23

              @pjetson: This is what it says on the plan… https://imgur.com/a/c1lm4dN

              • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 19:38

                @isthisreallife22: The plan confirms it - the side and front walls of your master bedroom are clad with Harditex (fibro cement sheet) which will be attached directly to the wooden frame. Your master bedroom walls are not brick veneer, and I suspect that anywhere else in your house that is also clad in Harditex is also not brick veneer.

                That means there is no cavity in the wall, and therefore no way to get a wire up or down inside that wall.

                Are there any external walls that are rendered from the slab to the roof? Those walls will be brick veneer, if the construction in the second photo is the same as in your house. Only in true brick veneer walls will you be able to run cables inside the walls.

                This type of construction is common - it's cheaper to use cladding on upper levels, and it's more or less the only way to build houses where an upper wall is not supported all the way to the ground, such as the side and front walls of your master bedroom seems to be.

                Such construction is often used where someone has added a second floor to a house that was originally built as a single story house, since the original house would not have been designed to support the weight of bricks. You also see cladding above windows in some houses, since it's cheaper than putting a huge steel beam or lintel across the top of the windows to support bricks above the window.

                • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 20:00

                  @pjetson: Thanks. See the following photos (best I have this evening)

                  Looking up from ground - other side of the house
                  Looking up from ground - same side as lead in at rear of garage
                  Very slight variation
                  Long distance shot to show how far cladding goes back on this side <- this must have been taken the week before NBN did their dodgy install

                  • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 20:28
                    +1

                    @isthisreallife22: The NBN installer put the grey box there because it was easiest for him, and it's in a poor location for you. There's probably some requirement where the box isn't allowed to be more than a certain height off the ground, so you're probably stuck with it being there.

                    If there's no rule about height, I'd be getting the grey box moved up under the eave, close to the roof.

                    To put the modem and router anywhere useful for you, you're going to need to get the cable back up into the roof and back far enough to find a cavity wall. That looks like the kitchen to me.

                    If you don't have any access into the space between the kitchen ceiling and the upstairs floor, the best you're going to be able to do is have the modem/router in the kitchen or the panty.

                    If you do have access, a good installer may be able to get the cable from the kitchen wall into the study nook.

                    I don't know what else I can contribute, sorry.

                    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 20:32

                      @pjetson:

                      I don't know what else I can contribute, sorry.

                      Don't be sorry. You've been a champion. Thanks

    • dcep on 08/10/2018 - 11:22

      i thought hfc going to be the same ex-telstra/optus coax outlet ?

      unless FTTC changes this ?

      • whooah1979 on 08/10/2018 - 11:42

        hfc doesn't use optus. it's foxtel coaxial either by aerial drop or underground.

  • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 11:39

    If the OP is getting a Telstra HFC connection now, his NBN will be HFC when it arrives. With HFC, the cable from the street to the house is coax, and the cable to the outlet is also coax. Or have I misunderstood what you're asking, phunkydude?

    • whooah1979 on 08/10/2018 - 11:45

      Or have I misunderstood what you're asking, phunkydude?

      you're not confused. fttc is fibre to the kerb.

      op has got an aerial drop.
      https://imgur.com/KBEb5wO

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 11:48

      Correct. The overhead line in the photos is coax (it's actually running about 30m to the other side of the street), and I need a coax RG6 cable from the external box into an inside wall outlet to connect my cable modem

  • dcuksuop on 08/10/2018 - 12:54

    Where do all the TV points' cables terminate at? Should be in the same spot somewhere.
    The 4 in my house leads to the garage, into a box with a powered splitter in there. Then this connects to the outdoor box.
    You don't need to get another wall outlet installed, you just need to get it connected to all those tv points' cables.

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 13:12

      They all terminate at a splitter directly above the manhole (which is in the ceiling cavity on the top floor above the small toilet near the top of the stairs https://imgur.com/AzFtRCc)

      • dcuksuop on 08/10/2018 - 16:12

        So you have a splitter. Is the splitter powered? Is there an input cable? If so where does that go/come from? Picture of the splitter if you can.

        • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 16:46

          Splitter isn't powered. Just a basic F type splitter like this https://www.4cabling.com.au/3-way-splitter-f-type-5-2400mhz-…

          (there's actually 2 of them daisy chained to get enough ports. Reception has been weak so I have unplugged a few of them that weren't in use and am only currently running a 2 way splitter)

          Cables are all very loose there.

          Not sure if loose down the other end, I'll have to investigate

        • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 17:59

          Hey dcuksuop… here's some photos of the actual splitter

          https://imgur.com/Fk9cIzL
          https://imgur.com/EUfBimm

          I was able to pull them just out of the manhole so very loose at that end

          The aerial line is the "In" to the 2 way splitter https://imgur.com/EUfBimm

          • dcuksuop on 08/10/2018 - 20:19

            @isthisreallife22: Definitely ask for 3rd/4th opinions to get things setup in the study nook, seems ideal.

            If you can get them to run the cable from the NBN box to where all the coaxials/splitters are, then you can use whichever existing TV point to connect to this cable, and connect your NBN modem to that TV point.

            Another thought.
            Once you go NBN, your telephone cabling are pretty much useless. If you check the cables, they might be ethernet cables. If so then you can convert them to ethernet jacks, and patch them together. (my telephone wires are a mix of cat5 and cat6 cabling)
            Then if you get the NBN jack at the red dot, you could plugin the nbn modem there, then connect ethernet cable from the modem to the phone jack (now an ethernet jack), and connect your wifi router at the other phone jack in the study.

            Also, if you're getting phone with NBN, the phone plugs into the NBN modem.

            Out of ideas. good luck.

      • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 16:27

        This could be helpful, if one of the existing TV outlets is in the same place that you want the HFC outlet AND the TV cables are run loose.

        If you take a TV outlet wall plate off the wall and tug gently on the coax cable, does it move or does it appear to be fixed down? Even better, does one of the cables to the splitter move? If so, it might be possible to use that cable to pull another cable up into the roof for the HFC connection, and then run that new cable inside the roof and out to the grey box.

        On the other hand, if the TV wiring was installed while the house frame was open, it might have been fastened down to the framing, and that makes my idea impractical.

        • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 16:48

          It's all very loose at the point of the splitter (even seems to be some excess there actually).

          Not sure if loose at the wall point, will investigate

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 13:13

      You don't need to get another wall outlet installed, you just need to get it connected to all those tv points' cables

      What do you mean exactly?

  • pjetson on 08/10/2018 - 20:19

    Preferred installation point is downstairs (relatively central) as we have a study nook here with existing phone point, however, a previous Telstra tech and some private cablers have suggested this is not feasible.

    That's likely to be true, since none of the walls of the study nook are external walls. There's no way to get new wires into that room now without tearing off the plaster.

    Looking at the plans, I think the best you're going to be able to do is put the modem in the pantry or the kitchen. You probably won't have a powerpoint in the pantry, so that probably only leaves the kitchen.

    Are the inside walls of the garage plastered? I'm guessing that they are, but if not, you might be able to get a cable into the garage and then an outlet on the wall across from the study nook. But that doesn't seem sensible really - the ideal situation would be to get the wi-fi router into the middle of the area that you want to cover.

    I'm guessing that there's a fridge between the end of the kitchen bench and the small wall between the kitchen and the dining room, and probably cupboards above the kitchen bench and the fridge. You don't want the modem and router on the kitchen bench, nor in the cupboards, so the kitchen is probably out.

    Hey, I don't suppose that you have downlights? If so, you might be able to pop a few out and gain access to the space between the ground floor ceiling and the upstairs floor, and that just might let you get a cable from the kitchen wall almost to the study nook, and maybe even into the ceiling of the study nook. I think that's a plan worth exploring.

    • isthisreallife22 on 08/10/2018 - 20:28

      Are the inside walls of the garage plastered?

      They are, but there is a powerpoint in there around the point the garage meets the external laundry wall so we might be able to access the wall between the laundry and garage

      I'm guessing that there's a fridge between the end of the kitchen bench and the small wall between the kitchen and the dining room, and probably cupboards above the kitchen bench and the fridge. You don't want the modem and router on the kitchen bench, nor in the cupboards, so the kitchen is probably out.

      Yep. Will PM you

      I don't suppose that you have downlights

      Hundreds of them. That could be a good idea!

  • isthisreallife22 on 09/10/2018 - 01:32
    +1

    Great news on this. I've removed the phone wall plates and what do you know, it appears that there is Cat5E ethernet cabling between the downstairs phone point in nook, and the upstairs phone point in the master.

    This means I have a way to the nook. Thanks for those who suggested this!

    Nook (Downstairs)
    Cabling labeled Category 5E
    2 cables - white one to phone lead in on external wall, and blue Cat5E connects to the upstairs phone point
    cables run vertically
    and appear to be taped on
    so not sure how this excess that's sitting just behind the wall point can be leveraged yet

    Master Bedroom (Upstairs)
    cable runs to the roof. The NBN lead in wall point is not far from the other side of this wall
    brighter looking up

    It's not clear to me yet how the Cat5e cable between the 2 phone points is connected - maybe there is a patch panel somewhere in the roof or maybe it's all one long cable. I'll have to try to find the blue cable in the roof. I suppose I'll need to test that it all works also.

    The benefit of this is that I could easily put the wifi router centrally downstairs, although I may have to settle for the modem in the master bedroom (which is bearable).

    Thanks for the tip!

    • dcuksuop on 09/10/2018 - 16:07
      +1

      Looking good. Seems like you have options now. Running wires to the study nook doesn't look hard either.
      If you're going to wire up the place, could put your patch panel + relocate all your other equipment (modem/wifi/UPS/future other servers) into the upstairs closet by the stairs/toilet.

  • hawkeye on 09/10/2018 - 09:50
    +1

    Makes sense why the nbn went to the left side of the house they actually went out of there way to help if you think about it.

    If you tie coax and more cat6 cable to the phone in master bed you can pull through the ceiling and drop another point anywhere in the upstairs floor your lucky the chippies turned the center noggings sideways so the wire will pass to the floor giving you a new NTD and ethernet point.
    I couldn't see it taking more than 3 hrs to do and that is an overestimation.

    • isthisreallife22 on 09/10/2018 - 11:26

      I'm thinking I'll just get ISP to connect the coax into the point that currently has the upstairs phone, and then put a dual wall RJ45 and Coax plate on (or perhaps even triple - RJ45, Coax, and Telephone as I've heard you can run ethernet and phone over a single Cat5e cable).

      Later on I'll get a cabler to pull through extra coax to put the modem somewhere a bit better, and drop some extra Cat5e UTP around the place upstairs.

      The one issue it feels like I'll have is the the modem will be connected upstairs, but will be routed from downstairs, so I need a line to the router to downstairs, and then patched back upstairs to feed the wired network?

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