I wonder what is your experience with chiropractic in relation to treatment for neck and/or back pain as a result of poor sitting posture.
The main reason I ask is because of the huge costs and it's way above the limit of health extras usually cover (correct me if there is one that has 2-3k a year)
In the end of the day if it does what it promises to do, then it is worth 4 or 5k.
Therefore I wonder what is your opinion/experience?
I think a lot of people have an issue with chiros claiming they cure
I was in your dilemma a few years ago, completely unaware and new to the Chiro Vs Physio scene, I went to see a Chiro for some backpain.
They started with their 'adjustment', I call it a Bank Account Adjustment as it's quick and heavy on the bank account.
He started to twist my neck in a snapping way, my back, everything felt awkward.
In the end, he sneakily started to sign me up for this weekly session to "fix my posture", he took an xray and showed that neck posture can be better.
Luckily I caught on early and ditched the fraud
Its always weird at first, doing anything is weird
The posture is a big cause of concern, the inbalance.
Things like that and exercises means you see the Chiropractor less and less.
Their goal should be to set you up for posture correction and exercises, so that you rarely ever see them again.
I did the posture thing, its just stand against a wall the back of your head and butt should touch the wall. Try and stay like that when you walk…. at first it feels weird and looks weird… eventually you start doing it naturally.
Think of this, put a 200gram weight in one pocket every day… that inbalance will in the longterm mess your up
Almost as if it's the exercise that fixes you.
What sorcery is this?
Chiropractors are another side of Physio
I've been at an award winning Physio, where resting up I saw him using Chiropractor techniques on clients.
I've had a Chiropractor, who was subbing in for my regular guy, who cracked my back without the pop sound you hear, he was just extremely smooth, I kick myself for not getting his card.
There are going to be bad/average chiropractors just like any other profession.
A big issue with Chiropractors is that like the Veterinarian thread, they're underpaid for the requirements to be a Chiropractor. Which means many will rush it where they can. IF you can find one that will spend 30mins on you and not the standard 15mins you'll likely to have found a good one… you'll most likely be paying $150 plus though
Chiropractic influence is AMAZING IF you do the exercises they tell you to do.. the thing is most of us don't. Exercise is the equivalent of brushing your teeth, you don't go to the dentist and expect your teeth to stay perfect right… yet you still have regular check ups.
I have mild scoliosis that threaten to get to an extreme point, Chiropractic care has pushed it back to mild and with exercises elevate any pain I should be experiencing.
If you ever been to multiple Acupuncturist you'll notice a big difference between each one, thats because its not heavily regulated like the AMA, Chiropactors are somewhat along that same scale in terms of quality.
I have a work colleague who hates Chiropractors, why she went once and the person was jumping on her back… yeh that's a dodgy one
For a lot of people there is nothing wrong with their spine, pain is cause because of sitting/posture. The CHiropractor will push you back to what you should be, then tell you and show you what to do so you don't come back… guess what most people ignore the advice
I've been going to Chiropractors on and off for 20 years… You know when I "NEED" to see them… when I don't do my exercises… when do I stop seeing them… when I keep up my regular exercises…
Sadly you have been sold a lie, it is the exercise that keeps you healthy not the 'adjustment'.
If the adjustment fixed you why would they recommend exercises ?
It is a way for them to justify their cost, so they can show you how you have improved (due to the fact you were doing exercises).
Chiropracty is as much related to physio as a Balinese massage. If I were a physio I'd be pretty offended if you called chiro another side of physio.
For anyone looking for further reading, I can recommend 'Trick or Treatment' by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst:
https://simonsingh.net/books/trick-or-treatment/
It provides an excellent introduction to evidence based medicine, then uses that base to explore multiple treatments, including chiropractic.
Ah Simon Singh, the journalist sued by the British Chiro Association.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Associati…
Taken from the wiki
In response to demands that the British Chiropractic Association "engage in scientific debate over its position", >the BCA released a statement supposedly presenting scientific evidence, but "supported by just 29 citations". >According to The Guardian, the article was
"ripped apart by bloggers within 24 hours of publication, before being subjected to a further shredding in the >British Medical Journal. It emerged that 10 of the papers cited had nothing to do with chiropractic treatment, and >several weren't even studies. The remainder consisted of a small collection of poor-quality trials. More >seriously, the BCA misled the public with a misrepresentation of one paper, a Cochrane review looking at the >effectiveness of various treatments for bed-wetting…"[22]
Wow. A large organisation such as the BCA representing 100's if not 1000's of chiro's failed to produce a document with decent scientific evidence to support their claims. Maybe the science just isn't there…
I've had chiropractic treatments in the past for stiff sore neck etc but these a days I am pretty good at cracking my own joints throughout the day.
The chiro students did take bio and anatomy classes with me at RMIT (along with acupuncture students) so I think it does something, but not necessarily for me as I DIY, otherwise RMIT would ditch it, maybe theyve ditched it idk check.
On the first consult, the Chiro will do an x-ray.
On the second consult the Chiro will show you "subluxations" which cause all the problems in your life which they can fix for you through manipulations by signing onto a 16 week treatment plan with three appointments per week. Also sign the fine print which say that it's not guaranteed to work and they aren't liable if you get a stroke through their manipulations.
On the fiftieth consult, you can decide whether to sign up for another 16 week course of manipulations or give up.
By then, they've got all your monies already.
This is pretty much the Chiro model in a nut shell
Have been seeing a chiropractor for over 7 years for regular preventative care. Not specific pain.
Had no idea about any of this. Even reading this thread I was thinking 'no but my guy is different…'
But then a lot of the information was sounding very familiar (not the hippy crap, but the on-going, vague treatment)
I'd always figured they were just another type of medicine like dentists.
What should I do now? Who should I talk to. Should I even do anything?
I'm thinking something like get assessed by a physiotherapist to put my mind at rest.
Thanks OP, this has been hugely eye-opening for me.
(pls only kind replies, I had no idea O.O )
You won't get grief from many here as we are very aware of just how deceptive alternative "medicine" is allowed to be.
For starters, they want to divorce themselves from actual medicine but still include the word medicine for legitimacy.
They interchange the words medical professionals and health practitioners.
They get away with their claims by liberal use of the words may and they cannot be liable because they do not treat, they "heal" (not really a scientifically defined general term).
Now that your eyes are open, keep an eye out for these words - healing, wellness, relaxation, wholesome, holistic, cure, organic. These are the telltale signs of the snake oil paddler. Supplements included.
I did get sucked in for half a year, 1-2 visits a week. It was really just a bunch of bs.
While there was temporary relief, I also receive similar relief just from doing my own stretches, or doing stuff like a dead hang off a pullup bar, correcting my own posture, or doing exercises (after much study through youtube).
I wouldn't go to a chiro again, but I've had others who say that its helped them a lot.
It's interesting and strange pseudoscience. I've always been a self-cracker since my early teens so paying someone to do something that I can already do.. meh. :|
Tried it once ($13 trial), it was really nice having my back cracked and sort of cool but felt no different.
Edit: also tried to upsell me for a $180 xray
Thank you!
short answer: no
long answer: nooooooooooooooooo.
This was a fun thread. Thanks OZB.
OP: a combo of physio and yoga might work. I gotta say my back issues have never been solved by the many physios I've seen, but that is ultimately on me for not putting the work in. Only twice I did put the work in and the physio's got so annoyed with me saying things have not gotten better they literally had to refer me to another physio or in one case, just told me he couldn't help me anymore.
Yoga on the other hand, I thought wouldn't do anything about my back pain and was doing it for other reasons. But after doing iyengar yoga on a weekly basis for a couple of months I noticed that when I finished my sessions that I was pain free for most of the day (would be fully back in a day or so). Unfortunately I stopped going and the pain came right back, but I am convinced that if I started up again, it would at least assist with the pain (and has the bonus of getting some flexibility back into this very stiff, tall frame).
Not advocating that either of these options will "cure" you. But worth a shot.
I was told doing yoga without personal trainer/physio trainer may damage my spine more.
They said if I doing it wrong, or activate the wrong muscle, then I will make it worse.
Hmm interesting, maybe they want you to do pilates with a physio. They probably don't want you doing the many forms of yoga which can be quite strenuous. Iyengar is a lighter form of yoga and uses a lot of props to assist people into easily doing some poses without strain. It is great for older people. Because of this, studios that practice it are harder to find. In Melbourne I haven't found a place that isn't a 20 minute drive away unfortunately.
I went once and was told I had a mild curvature of the spine, or scoliosis. And that quite a few sessions were needed to fix it.
But I read that it's quite common.
My question is, has anyone had their spine aligned to any noticeable extent from a chiro or other means?
That's like trying to fix the Opal tower with a rubber mallet.
If you have a chronic musculoskeletal skeletal condition, see if you are able to go see a physio and an exercise physiologist.
The physio will help with building muscle around the affected area to strengthen relevant muscles in the region to build strength and stability, and the EP will give you an exercise program to build on it and develop lasting results.
TBH, don't be too convinced about Physio either (not the practice) but the people.
Most people i've seen (qualified Physios) taking ~$70-$100 per session just had YouTube knowledge on stretches and massage therapy
Plus a medical degree
Does homeopathy work?
that should be a new thread
It does work for lot of problems but not for back pain or spinal issues.
It does in Emergency Rooms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Just kidding that's a comedy skit.
It does. It makes fools part with their money.
As therapy? No
A lot of people have already said the same thing but I thought I'd also weigh-in.
Disclosure: I'm a medical doctor so I may have a bias towards evidence-based healthcare.
1) I agree with your sentiment that if it works then it is worth paying for. The caveat is that there is no evidence to say that it works. The only evidence in its favour is that of the placebo effect (somewhere in the order of 20-30% effective for subjective pain). The other thing about placebo is it works for other treatments including those with evidence to support their claims. In other words, what you get with chiro is placebo, what you get with evidence-based therapies is placebo PLUS the possibility that the therapy will be doing good for you.
2) Sadly I have seen too many horror stories from people regarding chiros.. From failing to notice that there was a more severe problem at play, to causing irreversible damage. One patient was seeing a chiro for 4 months about arm weakness and involuntary movements. They did nothing for her symptoms and didn't even tell her to seek medical advice.. She went to the physio for ONE VISIT and they immediately referred her to hospital where she was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour. Sadly it may have been somewhat more treatable if they caught her 4 months earlier! In addition to this I've seen numourous (around 10 or so) posterior circulation strokes caused by traumatic manipulations. These were in young people around 30 years old who now have permanent disability. All because they were probably sleeping on poor pillows or beds, or had a non-ergonomic set up at work etc. I don't believe the danger outweighs the possible benefit.
3) Their claims are often fantastical and require ongoing regular visits (surprise surprise). This earns them more money and I believe is a conflict of interest and, given they have no evidence to back their claims I believe what they advertise is tantamoue to fraud.
4) There are bad eggs in every profession and yes I may have a skewed opinion based on my narrow experience. That being said they are not regulated to the same degree and you have no recourse if something goes wrong because they make you sign a waiver before hand. You can have a surgery go wrong but if they were negligent you still have recourse. Chiros not so much.
5) There are much better alternatives but be prepared to do the hard work too! Physiotherapy is by far the most effective for almost all musculoskeletal complaints but they don't offer a quick fix. I believe that's because they are honest and sometimes there ISN'T a quick fix. You'll also need to do exercises yourself and likely make changes to your day-to-day regime. This isn't easy and while chiro sells you something easy.. It's a fairytale.
Hope this has helped in some way. Please make a truly informed decision!
Hi justtip, thanks for your post and full disclosure I am a Chiropractor but also a medicolegal expert consultant.
Regarding your point 1, this is simply not the case. There are quite a few high level clinical practice guidelines that recommend manual therapy and/or spinal manipulation for both acute and chronic neck and lower back pain. See some from my comment later in this thread, there are many more, most of them medical. Chiropractic is a profession, not a modality.
Regarding your point 2, your anecdotal comments, whilst terrible, simply don’t reflect the high level evidence. Risk is inherent in all interventions though spinal manipulation in the hands of a registered Chiropractor has been described in the literature as remarkably safe.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence. I have a career of witnessed medical misdiagnosis and mistreatment with terrible outcomes I can recount and I am only relatively young as a Chiropractor. I am not here to beat you guys up you do a wonderful job under a lot of pressure and I see my role as just trying to help the ones that fall through the cracks. I think we work best together as a healthcare team with the patients best interests as our aim.
For example to contrast your anecdotes above, I reiterate not as a criticism, in the last 3 years the local GPs and hospitals have missed: a bloke with 5 broken ribs, punctured lung and pneumohaemothorax; 7 or 8 different tumours, including a GP who had seen a patient 7 times over 7 months and prescribed a different painkiller each time for nonspecific back pain (including a Lx CT that was clear) only for me to discover multiple myeloma in the lower thoracic spine at t10 which resulted in an insufficiency fracture and lower limb paralysis the day after I met the patient (and no I hadn’t treated him, just referred for imaging). The clinical picture didn't fit the treatment.
The career highlight was the ED and neuro at a large hospital sending a patient with neck pain after a low speed crash home with a cervical collar and nurofen. After taking his history and examining him I sent him for additional imaging which revealed a two level lower cervical fracture/dislocation. I’ve never had an X-ray report that read “warning significant finding, imminent risk of paraplegia, patient requires immediate hospitalization” before or since. Patient was sent by ambulance immediately to the PA hospital in Brisbane where his wife reported that the surgeon commented on 'how lucky he was to have seen a switched on Chiro' as his neck was operated on that afternoon.
Regarding point 3, if anything in health care (or life!) doesn’t make sense then question. If the answer doesn’t make sense get another qualified opinion. We don’t cure cancer, can’t avoid you paying tax nor can we grow you a new arm. If it sounds like crap, it probably is. Your health needs will depend on the clinical presentation, your own goals and a range of other factors that should be discussed (are you a smoker, overweight, eat crap, stressed out etc etc). In my experience some of the local physios (whilst many of whom are great) have put some of the scam claims in this thread to shame. Personal favourite was the physio who treated the 42yo female with neck pain following whiplash 150 times in 1 year… for no documented improvement.
Regarding point 4 unfortunately you are incredibly misguided. Chiropractors are registered health practitioners under the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (AHPRA) and are subject to exactly the same registration conditions as each of the 15 registered health professions (inc medicine). All health practitioners are subject to the same common law regarding negligence and torts. The law of informed consent is also well established and to say Chiro and surgery are treated differently is nonsensical and doesn’t reflect the law (disclosure I have first class honours in law from the University of QLD pre chiro).
Regarding point 5 you are entitled to your opinions but high level medical clinical practice guidelines suggest otherwise.
Not meaning to be disrespectful and no doubt will be neg voted off the page given the ozbargain folk seem to have had some bad experiences. I welcome constructive dialogue.
Won't let me edit, sorry typed the above on a phone. Just wanted to add I share your bias toward evidence influenced healthcare, it should be the basis of all our decision making. I also forgot to add to the OP that 5k cost upfront (or after) sounds wrong, get another opinion.
usually standing up straight will help
Honestly, I treat it now like a massage. I'm with BUPA and I get 10 chiro visits a year for like $5 each session. I also see the physiotherapist and I get about 15 visits a year for $7. Worth checking out.
This is a good way to think about it. Massage is a bandaid fix which could damage further but if it releives it's hard to say no. Same as chiro. Both are healthcare practitioners rather than medical professionals like physio.
Be aware of the placebo effect and the risks of further injury from seeing these therapists.
I love a good massage and feel it's possibly safer than Chiro but it doesn't do anything long term.
Also be careful of yogis and the health field in general. It is so full of quack to make a buck.
When I get the urge for a massage, I just lay on the bed and get my wife to walk up and down my back a few times. It gives the same after-feel as a massage from a “qualified” practitioner, but is free.
Dear chiropractors, if you are reading this. Please do AMA!
Anecdotally, I have used chiros in the past and have felt help from them.
Scientifically speaking, a study was done on chiros and found that they do provide greater assistance than a placebo (from memory) however about the same as massage.
I actually like being massaged, so use my health care rebates there now - even when the back feels good (nice to go along just to enjoy feeling relaxed!)
So - massage. You pay about the same for a 45 minute massage as you would for a 10 minute chiro session.
Does praying the gay away work?
No, it'll cost you $60 for a 5 minute consultation. When can I schedule you in?
It depends. Do you swallow?
I have a friend who visits the chiropractor. When i asked if it's evidence based, he defended it pretty strongly. Smart guy, too. Just like astrology, power stones, religion and spirituality in general. People don't like being wrong.
This makes me laugh because in my early years out of uni i used to tell patients that have been signing Chiros for 2+ years that they are wasting there money and i tell you what they used to have a go at me saying i didnt know what i was on about now i just say 'if you find it helps, go for it'
yea no point. can't argue with stupid
Which is all fine unless those chiros are the type that claim they can cure cancer and act as a substitute for immunisation all by fixing “subluxations”.
I would always stick with the scientific consensus.
Anecdotally, back when I was young and stupid in high school, I attempted a back flip and landed on the balls of one foot. I felt sharp pain whenever I put weight on my foot and it was swollen af so I hopped around for a few days. Parents took me to a Chinese chiropractor and after a crack, I immediately felt better and the swelling went away pretty rapidly too. That said, every now and then for 1-2 years after, I would feel a bit of pain when I deliberately put a lot of weight on the ball of that foot but it was never a big problem. Years later, I don't notice any problems at all. So from that one experience in that particular situation, I would say it helped me. That said, I wouldn't visit one myself given the scientific consensus unless all western medical options have been exhausted.
westernmodern medical options
Medicine or modern medicine does not care where which part of the world information comes from. If it is evidence based and it is peer reviewed to work, it is medicine.
lol have you been to china? they mix the two and would consider it 'modern'. it's akin to still using leeches to remove 'toxins', ie. traditional western medicine. as an example, i once saw a poster in a chinese hospital advertising scorpion poison as a cure. you have to specifically ask for 'western medicine' if you want any of that peer reviewed stuff.
Lol. That's a whole different kettle of fish there then.
I'd be asking for the exit.
@[Deactivated]: i told some chinese friends about paracetamol and ibuprofen. they had no idea these OTC painkillers even existed.
@belongsinforums: Must be from the small provinces.
A friend of mine runs a chain of resorts overseas (from backpackers to high end on-the-water chalets), and he gets busses of Chinese from the small remote villagers.
These people are not exposed to many things we assume is common knowledge. My mate even had to collaborate with incoming flights to make a video on how to use toilets and how door knobs work.
If I'm on their turf, I wouldn't trust their medicine, Western or otherwise.
@[Deactivated]: you can find brand names there, e.g. tylenol. its just stupid how the hospital's go-to solution for any kind of fever is the drip.
and yea…the sewerage system can't handle tp there, hence why chinese put tp in the bin.
Modern medicine is useless for chronic pain(backpain, arthritis etc) . Some alternative options seem to work better for those and those have been around for centuries. Choose wisely and something that can't harm you
fortune telling is still a viable business. can't harm you.
Useless for chronic pain? How do you figure that? I have severe arthritis and would be bed ridden if it wasn't for modern medicine.
Most alternative medicine practitioners do something on patients compared to the vast majority of script writers in modern medicine. Things can go wrong when you do stuff regardless of the practice I suppose. it's a fact that there is a significant number of unmet needs in modern medicine and because of this reason there will always be a market for other options. For some ailments alternative medicine can work better in my personal experience.I have no opinion on Chiro and I wouldn't try it myself because I don't find it safe enough to give it a go.
"something that can't harm you"
This is not a good measure of whether a medical OUTCOME is the desired one. For example, surgery involves the intentional cutting of your body and bleeding etc, but the final OUTCOME, not the process, is the defining measure of success.
As for treatments that have been around for centuries; well, in general we know better now, and don't have to resort to boiling whatever weed we find on the side of the road, telling someone 'that will make you feel better'.
Of course but you are going down this path because modern medicine isn't good enough yet for your specific needs
Chiropractors and homeopaths are great - as long as you’re not sick!
Sorry if this has been repeated. Definately go to a physio or osteo or someone that's both of that, cos U get the treatment, manipulation and alignment! Also a podiatrist also helps with general body posture if you need othotics :)
My father went to a chiropractor for neck stuff and walked out with a permanent case of Tinnitus.
Not worth the risk.
I had a bad experience with one who tried to sign me up for a 12 session payment plan after I had already been four times with zero increase in mobility. Went to a physio who had me moving properly in one session as well as exercises to continue improving. I wrote off the whole chrio profession for years. But! I came across another chriro who sorted me out for another issue.. shorter story, there's good and bad in every profession. Stay away from the ones that say they need you to sign up to a b.s. plan.
The problem is most chiropractors are useless and want you to go back regularly and charge a fortune. But if you get a good Chiro they really work and are worth every dollar. If a Chiro says he can fix anything but a sore back run a mile! I went to a lot of useless ones before I was recommended good one by by myotherapist and he significantly improved the quality of my life. To be honest I have seen plenty of useless physios and osteos too and I am surprised that everyone thinks they are the bees knees.
Chiros are good at relieving the symptoms but they don't necessarily, in most cases, cure the causes.
I'll go on record to say most podiatrist are also greedy bastards that just want to sell you orthopedic insoles/orthotics.
If your cause is a gait, posture or muscle imbalance - find a good physio who can help assess and provide corrective exercises.
I've had leg and back pain for years. Wore insoles and grandpa shoes (you know the ones with thick and rounded soles and bulky frames) and seen lots of chiro. Sure they help manage the pain but don't fix the cause.
I finally found a good physio that manage to diagnose that I was weak in one of my ankles (likely due to an injury I had years ago), which caused a gait issue and messed up my posture and created a chain reaction that move all the way up to my back. After some good sessions of corrective exercise to fix it, I'm insole and grandpa shoe free! No more wasting money as well with regular trips to the podiatrist and chiro.
In response to today's Herald Sun headlines.
"Dr" Andrew Arnold and his infact shenanigans.
Bad journalism - "While the use of such techniques on infants is not illegal, they have proved highly divisive within the medical profession".
Yeah. Not divisive in the medical profession whatsoever. We consider it downright stupid.
You would think government wouldn't have to step in but…
What in the world…
No mention of banning chiro altogether though
If you're after a cheap physio/osteo check out the schools. Mine's $30 per session.
treatment for neck and/or back pain as a result of poor sitting posture.
Why stop there? Chiropractic can be used to treat anything from menstrual cramps to cancer.
All disease is caused by vertebral subluxation interfering with an "innate intelligence".
Don't pay any attention to this newfangled germ theory.
I've had problems with my back/shoulder for quite a while now from work. Have had cortisone injections, trigger point therapy, chiropractor, physio etc.
I had friends swear to me that having a chiropractor would fix all of my problems. I went and I couldnt walk for 2 days. I dont know what he did but I felt like my back had broken. I went back a second time as he said I would be sore and it was normal and it happened again. Off work for 2 days because I couldnt move. I never went back.
For me trigger point therapy helped more than everything else. With that I wore a strap on my back to keep my posture straight and the pain has eased a lot.
It'll be work if you sincerely believe that it must work. All chiropractics base on your belief.
Wow so much hate in the comment section
I think chiros are ok IF and ONLY IF you know what you are getting your self into
Chiros are:
There to release stress and tension in the back area/muscles (much like going to massage therapist)
Chrios are not:
Healers that can cure back/neck/hearing or some obsurd problems you have in you body.. please go see a physio or real doctor
I go to a Chiro whom I trust from time to time (every few months) like having a massage (health benefit from company covers them anyways)
But for my wrist problem (busted it in sports) and other pains I go to a physio/doctor.
So to answer your question, if you are looking for a temporary relief massage type therapy, yea chiro is good but probably not more worth it than going to a massage parlour
If you think you need to "cure" your neck/back pain… see a physio plz