I wonder what is your experience with chiropractic in relation to treatment for neck and/or back pain as a result of poor sitting posture.
The main reason I ask is because of the huge costs and it's way above the limit of health extras usually cover (correct me if there is one that has 2-3k a year)
In the end of the day if it does what it promises to do, then it is worth 4 or 5k.
Therefore I wonder what is your opinion/experience?
I went to the same dentist as one of the members of the hooley dooleys, so he must be good.
I'm still looking for the dentist out of Horrible Bosses…
She can drill my cavities.
Wait… why do dentist drill when there's already a cavity? Wouldn't that be… counter productive?
Would you make the same boast if Ronald McDonald also went to the same chiro?
I'm astounded at the ignorance in this thread. No wonder these guys are still in business. Maybe snake oil does work.
It is hard to believe that the chiropractors spend many years and a large sum of money to study something that is simply useless.
On the other hand the many negativity in this topic makes me hesitate to spend my money on it.
Because they are as foolish as their customers. No reputable institution will offer a course in chiropractics.
Macquarie University is not reputable?
I would say its probably (equal?) 4th in NSW (#1)Syd, #2)UNSW, #3)UTS, #4)MCQ).
MCQ even has their own hospital! Macquarie University Hospital (182 beds, 12 operating theatres)
I will let them you think that, so they can close down the Uni for being unreputable.
As an aside (profanity) u UNSW and ur shitty stairs
Perhaps we can close them down to.
@Other: 4th in NSW but globally it's garbage. Compared to the three that you named before it, USYD, UNSW and UTS are all pretty great.
If you don't want to go global but just Australia, it's still bad. There's Melbourne and ANU, both of which don't offer the course. Top unis from each state don't offer chiro courses either.
Every study that has gone into the effectiveness of chiro has come up with no result for long term effectiveness of the treatment they offer. If you look into peer reviews and meta analysis, you're going to find the same result, which is no significant difference between no treatment and chiro treated patients.
Some people spend their lifetime studying the arrangement of stars and their influence on them based on their month of birth.
I recently got hope that the star alignment this month and same Chinese animal year will give me good fortune for life! I'm a bit poor lately putting a lot of even amounts of money in red envelopes and got a recent custom licence plate of 8s.
But I believe it is paying off, I won $10 from my daily $1 scratchie the other day, it's a sign I will get jackpot!
Said by a friend. They wanted money so they'll share the fortune with me.
HSBC use them.
They have $.
Find a good Chiro that actually cares about the outcome. There are goods ones that are evidence-based. I have a close friend that study Physio and Chiro. There is a lot of crossovers. Read reviews on the Chiro you plan on going too.
It is hard to believe that the chiropractors spend many years and a large sum of money to study something that is simply useless.
Have you heard of Endeavour College of Natural Health? Homeopathy has 'proper' schools too.
I was refer to a chiro by these stand with strings posture measure thingy once. The chiro was a great salesman, tired to slowly trap you into a $4k sale. One of the first questions he ask me was ‘in a scale of 10, how keen are you to fix your pain problem’…… the worst bit is once the X-ray result was out, he tried to scare me with my results…… not a very good experience.
not sure if you ignorance is more comical or tragic.
Placebo is a well known and established medical phenomenon.
I have spondylolisthesis few year back, going to a Chiropractor every 2 weeks (after the inital 2 time a week) for 1.5 years, it still not get fixed(or can be survive for longer without visiting). Then a physio told me Chiropractic is doing more harm to the back with frequently correction of the bones.
After that I try to see a physio , after 8 visits then I now second year without needing to see the physio anymore.
Similar experience here. A friend went to the top Adelaide chiropractic clinic; very professional-looking, X-rays, the whole thing. She had two sessions to help an aching and stiff neck. Ended up with overextension which took a year and a neurologist to fix. Certainly put me off. Physios, and a qualified masseur can crack your back into place, if need be, and they use is evidence-based practice. Also cheaper, and covered by Medicare and health insurance extras.
they often end up doing more harm than good (and stringing people along for quite a lot of money at the same time).
Better to see a real doctor/physio.
Does a spoon work to chop down a tree?
If you have one try, no. If you try enough, can eventually take a tree down even with a spoon.
Is that an evidence based trial?
It is based on the "throwing shit on the wall" experiment; eventually something sticks.
That one is evidence based. Don't ask.
But there is no spoon…
Bend the spoon damnit.
Especially if that spoon has been bent with the Yuri Geller-style magic that chiropractors possess.
There's some good chiropractors and there's a lot of bad ones. Keep in mind what their action plan is.
Are they going to keep you on their books for a while e.g. No end in sight and you will need constant corrections or is there a plan where they will help with corrections, develop an exercise/rehab plan and come back only if that plan doesn't work.
Neck and back pain from poor posture will usually require some muscle work -> better to see a physio than a chiro. Same thing to keep in mind about the chiro also applies here (there are a lot of bad physios too)
Chiropractic was invented by an American, Daniel David Palmer, in 1895, who claimed that “adjusting” his friend’s neck cured his deafness. Now, it doesn’t take a lot of anatomical knowledge for this to ring alarm bells, however if you want definitive proof, the nerves originating from your cervical spine (your neck) have no affect on hearing, at all. Hearing is governed by your vestibularcochlear nerve, which originates from the brainstem, for what it’s worth.
Chiropractic works on the principle that your spine is “out of alignment” and by “adjusting” your back, they’re realigning your vertebrae. There has been no evidence to show that misaligned vertebrae can be re-aligned with manual therapy. All they’re doing is moving your vertebrae through the end range of motion and applying an overpressure. This helps improve mobility of your spine, acutely, however has no benefit long term. The relevance of adjustments comes when used in conjunction with proper exercise programs (i.e freeing up a stiff upper back to allow the patient to be able to perform their exercises without the hindrance of pain or an overly stiff spine).
This is before considering all the other bonus quackery like adjustments being able to cure a cold, allergies, [insert completely unrelated condition here]. Typical chiropractic treatment is predicated on providing short term relief that feels good enough for the patient to justify spending the money, but only lasts for 1-2 weeks so they have to return to make their regular donation to the chiropractor’s back pocket.
Having said that, Chiropractic courses are starting to improve due to a subsection of the broader community advocating rehab and more specific biomechanics principles and rejecting the classic quackery. A lot of universities will bring in experts from these fields, which are often Physiotherapists, who are starting to introduce solid Evidence Based Practise into the field. But if the only justification to see a Chiro is because they’re similar to a Physio, then you may as well just see a Physio in the first place.
Physiotherapy is far from perfect, and there will be bad eggs in the profession, but it is a recognised medical profession for good reason, whilst Chiropractic is not, despite their many attempts to gain legitimacy. A Physio will be aiming to treat the cause of an issue, not merely negating the symptoms for a short period of time before allowing them to return again; hopefully Chiropractic adopts this approach.
At the end of the day, Chiropractic is one of the only medical courses which incorporates business units into its teaching. That should be a significant enough warning. If not, then you need look no further than the fact that it’s an ‘alternative medicine’.
To quote Tim Minchin:
“By definition, Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine.”
This is before considering all the other bonus quackery like adjustments being able to cure a cold, allergies, [insert completely unrelated condition here].
This is what I hate and what most people assume when I say that I believe a chiropractor can help some people. If back cracking cures cancer then why isn't that a mainstream treatment like chemo?
It’s starting to be acknowledged as a problem, in Australia, at least. As I touched on, large numbers of Chiropractors are rejecting the old nonsense which can only be good for the wider consumer base.
Chiropractics is definitely not a medical course.
Well you are correct that they can't do surgery.
Molecular biology is not a medical course either (but it is useful for cancer).
Chiropractic was invented by an American, Daniel David Palmer, in 1895, who claimed that “adjusting” his friend’s neck cured his deafness. Now, it doesn’t take a lot of anatomical knowledge for this to ring alarm bells
https://youtu.be/eJy1Te6gNfM ??
seems to work..
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/babies/head-of-a…
When actual doctors say this person shouldn't be doing the stuff he does, perhaps using him isn't a great example.
Almost anyone who gets a baby treated by a chiro is an idiot.
I sincerely hope you’re being faceitious by citing a YouTube video, showing a partisan video of n=1, with no control, as counterevidence to the fundamental understanding of human anatomy.
you tell me what happened in that video.
@ego22: Either the chiropractor achieved results which have never been reproduced in controlled trials and go against the consistently proven understanding of Human anatomy and physiology, or he’s lying.
Occam’s razor.
This is the same thing with psychics, Crystal healers, and everything else in between. All their “powers” and treatment work…..until tested under controlled conditions and they coincidentally stop working, without fail.
Does Chiropractic Work?
Depends very much on…. Your injury/condition , who your chiropractor is, what treatment option they choose, how good they are at the treatment.
I have a lower back disc injury. When it first became extremely bad, the chiro helped much more than physio, in turning it round and getting it to begin to improve (I couldn't lay down, sit, stand, without pain and also was twisted to 1 side crooked asf).
The chiro I went to was excellent. Genuinely cared and wanted to do his best at helping (not just in it for $$). He is modern trained (old school chiropractic methods is what seems to have given chiro a bad name) . He actually volunteered every weekend doing massage work on footy team, because he wanted to get better at remedial massage etc.
He only does remedial massage on my back, looking at MRI to see where best to massage and help me. He also checks for sciatic symptoms, and has only ever done manipulation, on reccomendation of the head physio at hospital. Head physio at hospital wasn't comfortable with a particular manipulation that was needed.
Generally, even if I ask, my chiro will say no he prefers not to do manipulation for my particular injury/condition.
The bad reputation some chiropractors seem to have, is about always doing manipulation whether it is what is best or not. More modern trained chiropractor techniques are different I think (I have only seen the 1 chiro though) .
My chiropractor is happy for me to also see physio and happy to work with physio and bettering my health condition in back.
The physio on the other hand, the 1st physio I saw didn't want me to go to chiro at all under any circumstances, the reason he gave "because I want to see if it is what I do, that helps" .
The 5k cost seems silly, surely you aren't paying 5k up front ?
Why not just try it for 1 or 2 sessions, and see how it goes.
If you are very aware and intuitive of how people are, you should be able to pick up on whether a health professional is
1) Just in it for the money
2) Is trying to get you back just to make more money, regardless of whether you need it or not (if they are telling you that you'll have to come twice a week for a year, before they have even seen you once that's a good sign of them squeezing you for money)
3) Genuinely likes their profession, because they love helping people. (Though I am certain my chiro doesn't like rubbing sweaty blokes backs, he does genuinely enjoy helping people in his role),
My chiro spends almost 2 hours to examine me, including doing xray, costed me a good $300. Then she says to see her twice a week for a few months then once a week. It all went positive and made sense.
However, while what she said make sense, how she led me to do xray and signed up on 12 treatments at discounts, they feel like salesman selling gym subscription. I declined saying I will think about it. 5k is a bit exaggerated, perhaps 2 or 3k is more likely.
Then this forum seems to be more negative. And Google seems to suggest that the best way to correct posture is by stretching (which makes more sense)
Rebateable via PHI I believe.
Your chiro is ripping you off, and they are not a good chiro.
Like some have said in this thread, it really depends on your condition and who your chiro is. Like all professions, you have good, and you have bad professionals.
They absolutely do not deserve the hate they're getting in this thread. I'm not sure what happened to @burnertoasty, maybe their chiro fkd him in the ass or something - I don't know.
I had a sore shoulder and upper back a while ago, and went to see a chiro. She did adjustments and taught me posture. I have to say, her adjustments really did help.
She knew her stuff. She was able to point out my pain spots instantly, without me telling her.
I see her whenever I need to (which so far has been once every 2 months or so), and my PHI covers the majority of it. I would continue going even if my PHI didn't cover any.
You have Chiros who claim they can cure cancer and the flu - those are obviously hacks. These Chiros are the ones who give the profession a bad rep. Pick your health professional wisely.
If you have a sore neck/back as a result of bad posture, I would recommend seeing a chiro. If you're in Melbourne, PM me, I can send the the details of my one.
And Google seems to suggest that the best way to correct posture is by stretching (which makes more sense)
Which is what every Chiropractor should be telling you to do… exercises and posture is like brushing your teeth
The 12 treatments is semi good, in that more to ensure you stay on track. All long term goals should be for you to not come back.
For most people you're sore not because you have a fked back, but because your posture was bad or you had some accident.
Note most of the negative replies is in talk and not actual experience. Acupuncture though still not fully understood is generally accepted now, it wasn't in the past.
If you have $3k to spend for your health, would you rather spend it on good chiro or good personal trainer and the gym subs?
Gym ain't for everyone. But certainly should not be ruled out of the equation.
I do physio, chiro, and exercise physiologist (I think that is their title, they are located at physio premises, and work with my physio on special exercise routine in gym for people with injuries).
YES. Chiro, Physio and Exercise Physiologist are good allied combo.
Your problem is back/neck pain from poor posture.
$3k burning a hole in your pocket is a separate problem.
Neck/back pain - consciously correct your posture. Set a timer to do stretches. Even getting out of your posture every 5 minutes to stand and sit back down will make a huge difference. Also, check your eyesight. Subconscious neck strain is common when compensating for focal distance.
$3k burning hole - BSB 123456 Account - 987654321. You're welcome.
I had similar issue with my back and shoulder as my job needs to sit for long hours.
I went to Physio/MST but what they have suggested is similar to yoga poses. Indeed they suggested me to do yoga regularly.
I started with yin-yoga with more focus on stretches and improved a lot. Later i moved to bit advanced like flow yoga. Its a very slow process but if you do 3 times a week you will find the difference.
This is my experience and everybody is different as it depends on your age and other factors.
Anecdotal n=1 evidence is terrible. Humans are hardwired to fool ourselves. I have made a point of doing a deep dive of research into human cognitive biases and I still am completely and utterly susceptible to this problem. We can only mitigate to a certain extent.
Chiropractics underlying premise as a medical discipline has zero basis in our understanding of the human body. It's claims do not match our confident anatomical knowledge.
There are some studies that have shown some correlation with improved lower back pain outcomes.
Chiropractic has significant risks. The adjustments they do to treat 'subluxations' (Not a real thing) carry the risk of spinal damage and nerve impingement.
My advice is to see a physiotherapist. You have to do the rehab work for it to work though.
I've done it a few times, it's good for a release but it provides no long term benefits. As everyone said go see a physio.
The thing that shits me most of all is that chiropractors have the gall to call themselves "doctor". It's incredible they get away with it, especially considering the unscientific nonsense that many of them spout eg anti-vaccine, seeing subluxations on xrays that aren't there etc.
From what I see, they have PhD, so they are doctors… Not md though.
None of the 4 universities (and I use the term loosely) that offer chiropractic courses offer more than a masters so I doubt there's many chiropractors with PhDs out there. It's certainly not required for them to practice.
They receive an honorary doctorate for both Chiro and Physio. I did a bit of research on this as I was considering studying Osteo at one stage and the whole doctor title intrigued me.
I have a mate who's an Osteo and won't use the title. Doctor's get real pissed off when other Osteo's refer patients to them and sign off with Dr apparently.
Google "easiest way to get the title of DR" and you'll find a whole bunch of bogus courses with honorary doctorates lol.
There are very few "Medical Doctors" who have a Doctorate ie. PhD. Most "Medical Doctors" are simply MBBS. i.e. undergrad Bachelor of Medicine combined with a masters Bachelor of Surgery. This has changed relatively recently for some Universities where they're now being qualified as DMedSc.
One of the original latin meanings for Doctor was teacher / scholar.
As far as I'm concerned the term "Doctor" for medical doctors that don't otherwise hold a PhD is purely honorific.
I'm a medical doctor and I agree it's an honorific title. I would argue that we've done more to earn it than chiropractors though. I don't have a problem with dentists using the title either.
Yep this.
Anyone who uses Dr title (except unless referencing the actual degree they hold the phd in) and is Not a medical Dr should be killed.
Every upvote gets a fake Dr killed.
Doctors, by definition? Sure, only because they stole the unprotected title.
Doctors, in terms of the colloquial use of the term? No, not even close. They’re only one rung above homeopaths and crystal healers.
Don’t mistake your inability to discern quackery from evidence based practise as knowledge.
Are you a Chiro?
I can't imagine why else someone would make this comment.
the term doctor is not a protected title, so they acn use it as they see fit. Can't call themselves a medical practitioner or specialist though.
I've been seeing one for over 10 years. A good chiro is as much about prevention as they are about cure.
I'm almost 2m tall and do experience occasional back problems, but the chiro generally keeps me good.
My chiro is also good at relieving problems with muscle and other injuries.
As this thread shows, they are polarising. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't then move onto something else.
I've been seeing one for over 10 years.
Lol. Does this not tell you something about their effectiveness???
A good chiro is as much about prevention as they are about cure.
Prevention, not cure.
Ironic username…?
(Also that's terrible logic, like someone saying that "I haven't had an accident in the 10 years I've been praying". It could well be that you'd have had no issues anyway even without seeing a chiro in that time.)
Different professions have different meetup schedules.
For example I will see my soft taco maker (from Zambrero) quite often and hope to see him again.
I saw a plastic surgeon x3 and hope to never see him again (even though he is excellent - fantastic guy).
I heard an orthopaedic surgeon talking on radio a few months back who begged people to not take their children to chiropractors. He said he is tired of surgically repairing the damage done by them on babies and children knowing that the ongoing problems were going to be considerable and long lasting. He said if you are an adult then you make your own decisions but that even the 'clickers' they use can exert enough localised force to break the tiny 'facets' and 'processes' of the vertibrae, and do, leaving patients in long lasting pain.
I can guarantee you that the only thing surgeons worry about, when it comes to Chripractors, is dealing with the clean up after they fracture the vertebrae of an infant, or sever someone’s vertebral arteries with a cervical manipulation.
It's not only Ortho that has to cleanup after chiros.
I don't care, I'm in private. Stupidity has a price and I'll take it if the patient is paying.
It's just sad to see tax payer funded medical system cleaning up for the "health and wellness" industry.
Do you know what surgeons say about spinal surgery… they'll doing ANYTHING first before getting spinal surgery
Surgeons are the ones doing the damage
Wow just wow…
You've been talking to the newer and stupider chiros. They've been told to promote that b.s. yearly contract. Avoid them at all costs { and their costs are a ripoff} and go and find someone old school. Over the last 35+ yrs I've had numerous occasions to go to chiros and have tried both. Never found a good " newer" chiro. Main difference apart from the newbies being a ripoff is that they are clinically hopeless. I literally never had any good resultsonly charge by the session. from any. The opposite of those who are "old school" and
You’re right, it isn’t voodoo magic. It’s simple nonsense.
It's not medicine.
Really though, you can barely string a coherent sentence together, do you really expect people to take your (incorrect) opinions seriously?
It's 100% quackery. At best, chiropractic is untrained physiotherapy, or functioning purely on placebo. At worst, it kills you or your child. I'm not sure why chiropractic has become so ingrained in Australia, but it unfortunately has.
claims to know what chiropractic is
doesn’t call it quackery
Pick one
Id suggest by your totally uninfornmed response you know absolutely nothing about chiropractic.
I'd suggest that chiropractors are totally uninformed and should respond to absolutely nothing.
FTFY
could you put up some info that supports what you believe in. Then we can all learn something, you might even change someones opinion
Evidence is for big corporations to lie using research!
Your quotes are way over the top.
Firstly seeing the right chiro does wonders.
Secondly visits to a chiropractor cost around $50 to $60 and most health funds pay $25 towards that cost for a combined yearly total of $300 to $400
No diagnosis
No treatment options
No treatment plan
No prognosis
Here is the price
I think it's a question you can try for yourself. Personally I think it works but if you are going to give it a go and believe it doesn't work… I'm not sure who's going to convince you otherwise.
If you're worried it's a waste of money find a place that is training other chiros or places whereby you're not part of effectively a human conveyer belt and they make you do a visit every day for a week or two and then so on and so on selling you a 'package' over $5k. By the time you realise it doesn't seem to be helping your money is gone. Not saying those places are terrible but I prefer going somewhere whereby I feel valued as a client rather than paying $70 for 5min average consult (some of these guys get paid more than doctors)
Those places you'll find are often running intro pomotions to get new clients as turnover is high and they are more dependent on new clients ($$$$) rather than old clients who come once a fortnight (not worth servicing)
There are genuine chiropractors who will take time to work on your symptoms who are really good too. But when they're churning a conveyer belt and have a money motive, you'd still have to question even someone with the greatest intentions.
I'd recommend you find a place that actually spends a good 20-30minutes a consult that charges a reasonable price without spending more time selling you a 'treatment plan' than finding out out what works for you…
Chiropractors in Australia are factioned into 2 seperate groups - those that practice from an evidence base and those that do not.
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/chiropractors
Chiropractors may be helpful for chronic lower back pain in adults.
There are many other conditions chiropractors should not be involved in treating at all.
These two factions…
Do they meet up somewhere on the middlegrounds and battle it out?
The light faction and dark faction both have the same ultimate skill - neck alignment. The light side uses it to heal their allies but the dark side manipulates it for unpredictable but potentially critical damage.
I can imagine the aftermath - kombucha bottles and goji berries strewn across the battlefield.
I can imagine the aftermath - kombucha bottles and goji berries strewn across the battlefield.
I just love the smell of kombucha in the morning… (#no)
To specifically mention the issue of Chriopractors always wanting to do imaging of the spine, this paper comes to light:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25430861/
It looks at the imaging of patients without symptoms and the prevalence of significant findings within these patients. For example, taking the under 30 age group:
52% showed signs of disc degeneration
33% disc signal loss
34% disc height loss
40% disc bulging
31% disc protrusion
20% annular fissure
9% facet degeneration
5% spondylolisthesis
Keeping in mind, this is people aged under thirty which is very young in the context of wear and tear on the body, and the prevalence climbs quite rapidly as you move upwards in age. All of these “issues” in people who have no symptoms at all. These people could develop something completely separate to these imaging findings later in life, and have it misattributed to these pre-existing factors.
So even if a Chiropractor wasn’t pointing to imaginary subluxations in the vertebrae that have no bearing on overall functioning, findings on imaging are sketchy, at best. One can only surmise they use it as a tool to generate repeat sessions, i.e “wow look at all these problems you have in your spine; you’re going to need X number of sessions to correct it”.
Every doctor, surgeon, and physio worth their salt will be reluctant to image because it is often associated with poorer outcomes, as patients fixate on a given finding and tend not to participate in active therapy, e.g “I’ve got a degenerative disk so that must be causing my pain and, since I can’t grow it back, I’ll just do nothing”. The reality is that this was likely always present, and the current condition is a new occurrence.
A medical professional uses imaging to rule out nefarious conditions. A con artist uses it to miraculously create conditions which coincidentally require a long course of treatment.
And this is before questioning how a Chiropractor suddenly developed psychic powers to be able to predict how a patient will respond to treatment before even commencing it, and therefore knowing how many sessions are “required”. Although, in fairness to them, since most Chripractic “treatment” does effectively nothing beyond some acute pain relief which lasts in the single digits of days, every answer would be equally (in)correct.
I've found that physios get technical and make you do hard excersizes that take a long time and make you feel like nothing ever happens because recovery is slow.
Chiros are much better at using their words and selling their product/procedures to make you feel like magical things are happening. And many people buy into this positivity and actually really do feel better after doing the weird things chiros do.
Physiotherapy is where you go to get better
Chiropractor is where you go to feel better
Pick your poison
hmmm, does that mean we should go to both, so we can get better and feel better at the same time?
@[Deactivated]: We live and learn eh?
May all your future arguments be objective and unwavering in authority.