How to Recover $22,000 after Mistaken Internet Payments?

Before we start, this is not an internet scam thing, money was not sent to Nigerian Prince, it was just transferred to a wrong person, 11 times!

My friend has set up a periodic bank transfer to pay an employee $2000 weekly last year. However, he unwittingly chose a payee details from previous payee list due to similarity of the names. This error was only discovered after 11 transfers had been made to the wrong person. Sounds unbelievable but it's true. The total of $22,000 has gone to the wrong recipient.

It seems lot of people doubt that how come there were 11 transfers before the error has been discovered. On their behalf, I have contacted my friend to make the story straight.

It's a husband and wife restaurant business, normally wife is in charge of setting up of payroll and make payment. Husband asked wife to setup a transfer to pay the employee. When the employee notice the payment didn't come, he contacted the husband, then husband couldn't see the payment to the correct person, so he paid him through another fund. He forgot to check with his wife on this matter.

The wrong recipient was paid once on 2016, so his bank detail is on the payee list.

That's why it was only discovered after 11 transfers.

The money was sent from Bank S to Bank A, which was wrong recipient's bank. He has contacted his own Bank S, told them the mistake and asked them to recover the money on his behalf. After a while, Bank S sent 11 letters to him, all but said one thing, Recover is Unsuccessful, End of Message.

He has contacted Bank S again, they told him they couldn't help him anymore, he should contact the person who wrongly received his money directly. Is this a correct advice?

He only has the person's name and bank detail, no address though. When he tried to contact Bank A, they told him they couldn't help him due to privacy laws. Fair enough.

Here are some options I can think of:

1) ask a lawyer to send a letter of demand to Bank A, demand Bank A to freeze the fund and return to my friend.
This is base on the Fact Sheet - Mistaken internet payments from Financial Ombudsman Service.
"Between 10 business days and 7 months: the recipient's bank will freeze the funds.
The recipient will then have 10 business days to show they are entitled to the funds. If
they do not, the funds will be returned to you. "

2) report to Police, it should be equivalent to the case that you drop your wallet, someone picked it up but unwilling to return it back to you. right?

3) engage professional service, e.g. private investigator, debt collector, even bikies? the dilemma is that the amount of the lost money may not be quite substantial to cover the cost in the end, so is it a worthwhile option?

Can any fellow OzBargainer come up a recourse to recoup the money? Or the money is lost forever due to bank unwilling to assist anymore.

Thanks in advance

TLDR: $22000 was sent to wrong person due to genuine mistake, not due to scam, how to get it back

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Comments

    • He hasn't contacted FOS yet, legal aid gives the advice to contact FOS.

      Should he make a complaint to FOS about bank has not done enough to help?

      • +2

        erm … Yes ?

      • +7

        What do you mean by the "bank has not done enough to help"?

        The sending bank effectively can't do anything. They have simply processed payments in line with instructions.

        The receiving bank has presumably acted within the requirements of the ePayments Code that you've referenced later down. We are not aware of precisely what the receiving bank has or hasn't done as outlined in the letters from them you've referenced in the OP.

    • +40

      Why do people rush to post this useless meme? It's tired and not funny. Why even have forums if this is the response?

      This is a pretty unusual situation, it's not immediately obvious how the financial ombudsman can help.

      • -7

        Bikies

      • -7

        Why do people rush to post on ozbargain forums instead of contacting their bank, company they have a grievance with, their employer etc.? It's tired and not funny.

        This is a pretty unusual situation, it's not immediately obvious how the ozbargain community can help.

        • My friend has already contacted both banks, now he is facing stonewall.

          That's why I posted here to see if any people can come out next recourse to recover the money.

          • +7

            @jayzee: http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/mistaken-epayments.html

            There are some info here that might be relevant or might help you with this case.

            That being said, if you wanted help it is not good to withhold information. I don't understand how you are so keen on getting your friend money back but don't want to know why it had taken him 11 weeks to realise he has been sending it to the wrong person. It seem like you don't want to know any other detail about the transaction (who is to, what is it for).

            Bank S and Bank A doesn't tell us anything, the ePayment code is voluntary, some financial institution are not even subscriber of it and are not bound by the code.

            https://asic.gov.au/regulatory-resources/financial-services/…

            The code also doesn't seem to apply to your friend case since it is a business account.

            The main problem here is the time frame it take your friend to notice the mistaken payment especially when it is a recurring payment of all thing (And to an account that he had paid previously as well).

            It wouldn't take a normal person 11 weeks to realise they made a mistake when it revolve around thousands of dollar.

            It is not clear cut for the bank to determine that the payment was a mistake. Don't expect them to do the leg work for you.

            This is the internet, everyone has their own opinion including mine. You are going nowhere providing a half arse story like this expecting result.

            • @highdealer: Thanks for the links, it's quite informative reading.

            • +1

              @highdealer: Please don’t butt into this node offering potentially useful advice (and even some constructive criticism) – you’ll only confuse matters

              If you read over @altomic and @zeggie's comments I’m sure you'll realise your error

        • :rolleyes:

        • +5

          I guess people hope there are others here who might have some knowledge on the matter; instead what usually happens is people like you who comment just to be a nuisance.

      • +1

        Not only that, the FOS has been replaced by AFCA now anyway.

    • It seems lot of people doubt that how come there were 11 transfers before the error has been discovered. On their behalf, I have contacted my friend to make the story straight.

      It's a husband and wife restaurant business, normally wife is in charge of setting up of payroll and make payment. Husband asked wife to setup a transfer to pay the employee. When the employee notice the payment didn't come, he contacted the husband, then husband couldn't see the payment to the correct person, so he paid him through another fund. He forgot to check with his wife on this matter.

      That's why it was only discovered after 11 transfers.

      • +2

        You should update this in the OP, people are still questioning this.

  • +19

    the money is lost forever due to bank unwilling to assist anymore your friend making a huge mistake with money.

    It was an unfortunate mistake, however I fail to see how the bank is to blame for your friend's mistake.

    Chit happens, nit everything can be blamed on others though. Your friend has to take some responsibility here.
    Has friend even paid now, the money owed to the person who the $22,000 was meant to go to ?

    • +35

      I made a mistake and have learnt my lesson :(

      • +9

        You saw this coming 8 years ago? What a visionary!

        • +3

          You can see this coming ever since internet forum is a thing, every stupid mistake ever made is always commit by a "friend"

  • +7

    I think your friend should learn from their own stupidity and take this as a very expensive lesson.

    • Everybody makea mistakes
      If youve read other threads the result would be the same even if he realised after the first transfer

      • +4

        Yes - the first transfer was also a mistake. Mistakes have consequences. We used to learn this as children, what happened?

        • +4

          I completed part of my formative years abroad. I was taught that actions have consequences and those consequences can shape my future in very significant ways.

          In Australia, I was taught that consequences have consequences. If we "punished" people by letting them face the consequences of their actions, as a society, we will be too fearful of taking risks and our way of life grinds to a halt.

        • +4

          Mistakes have consequences, but losing $22k because you transferred to the wrong account is arguably disproportionate consequences.

          OP's friend is likely to (eventually) get it back if they keep pursuing it; as has been covered elsewhere, the accidental recipient is not legally entitled to keep the funds and can face prosecution if they try to do so (or spend the money).

          Even in the best case scenario (OP's friend gets their money back willingly from the person that it was accidentally transferred to) OP's friend will have suffered consequences - loss of funds in the interim (and associated costs, e.g. loss of interest earned or additional interest incurred), stress and time trying to get it back.

          If it ends up going through legal channels then more cost and stress again.

          I'm sure that even the minimum set of consequences will have them checking very carefully against trivial mistakes like this in the future.

          • -3

            @ely: Case in point.

            You're one of those that confuse consequences with punishment.

          • +3

            @ely:

            Mistakes have consequences, but losing $22k because you transferred to the wrong account is arguably disproportionate consequences

            Reality doesn't care about proportion. If you are distracted for a second while driving, you may end up crashing killing yourself and your entire family. Is that proportionate? No. But those are still the consequences if it happens.

            tshow is completely right - no one decided that OP should lose $22,000 because of his mistake, just like no one decides to execute a distracted driver's family. The loss of the $22k is just the natural consequence of his actions.

            • +1

              @HighAndDry: @tshow I don't confuse the two at all, it seems like you possibly have some confusion though… Punishment may be part of the consequences, but that doesn't mean that all consequences are are punishment. Just because A is B doesn't mean that all Bs are A etc.

              Some consequences are cannot be mitigated (H&D's car crash example) and some can (as in this case). Where we can make the consequences proportionate, then we should consider doing so.

              @HighAndDry The law is part of this "reality" and have an impact on what the eventual consequences will be in this case, assuming that the OP's. tshow is not completely right, he's completely wrong. We (as a group) decide what the consequences of accidentally transferring that money are, it's not something we have no control over.

            • +2

              @HighAndDry: That's a moronic example. The consequences of a car crash are not controllable after it's happened. The consequences of an erroneous payment are.

    • +7

      Absolute rubbish. Bank employees have even accidentally transferred the incorrect amount of money to a customer or even to the incorrect account and they recover these.

      The banks will chase you till the ends of the Earth and will take legal action too.

      • True. Bank will weigh up if it's worth the effort to chase it up. But they certainly will send out a threatening letter if you resist to return the money, they can sell it to debt collector too.

      • +11

        If the bank made a mistake they will chase to recover their losses. I mean, who wouldn't?

        This is the sender's mistake.

        • +3

          And the sender should also chase to recover their losses. The bank should (and it looks like they probably have) do what they're able to to support their customer but they can only take it so far. It's up to OP's friend to take it further.

          • +2

            @ely: That's what we've been saying. OP can chase it, but they shouldn't expect the bank to go over and above to fix a mistake that was their own fault.

            • @HighAndDry: I know, and I agree with you :) It does happen every now and then.

      • True, but banks have write offs too when mistakes occur if they can't recover the funds.

    • +4

      Yes just give up on $22,000 :roll:

  • +12

    What happened when your friend asked the wrong person to return the money?

    • +2

      chose a payee details from previous payee list

      Generous 'bonus' for work previously completed by recipient ?

    • He only has the bank account details, no direct mean to contact the person.

      • +8

        How did they get the bank account details originally, they should re-trace their steps

        • My friend told me there was one-off payment to the recipient on 2016, he couldn't remember what payment was for and couldn't locate the details now.

          • @jayzee: seems pretty odd.
            Runs a business, yet doesnt have details other than bank account when making a payment.
            Not noticing 22k missing would assume reasonable turnover of the business
            Where is the invoice, ABN or TFN attached to it.

            • @taoz: No its not odd. It happens ALL the time. ALL the time.

              Why would it be odd? How many transactions are done in the world? You don't think there is human error?

              • @Other: Not sure you read comment.
                If a family business doesn't notice 22k, and makes transfers to a bank account that had sent money before to, yet have no details of that person in anyway.
                Id think that's odd. Each to there own view anyway

            • +6

              @taoz: seems VERY odd. what mum and dad restaurant is paying ANY employee 2k a week?

      • He also has the name.

        • +1

          Not necessarily. You don't need a name to send money to someone.

          • @dust: In this case he does have the name though.

      • +15

        Transfer $0.01 to them again with a message to call them in the reference details. Mention police. Or bikies.

        • +6

          Good idea, also put in message, "I know what you did last summer!"

  • First thing that comes to mind is the person the money was sent to (if they did NOT notify the bank the money was unexpected and to check if it was theirs), is they are guilty of fraud or a crime.

    If they did ask where is this regular payment coming from of the bank and the bank didn't say its from xyz company listed as "wages" then the bank is negligent

    I say this as once some time ago money that was def not mine was put in my account by mistake (similar to OPs story) as I am a pensioner without any other income it was easy to know the money was not mine.

    The bank said hey its yours go ahead and spend it,its in your name your account blah blah.
    I left the money alone for 6 weeks while it accumulated each fortnight, constantly reminding bank it was NOT mine.

    by the seventh week I get an email from said bank saying they are withdrawing the sum out as it was not mine and the error was a single digit in account numbers

    No thanks for keeping it and not spending it.

    • +16

      if they did NOT notify the bank the money was unexpected and to check if it was theirs), is they are guilty of fraud or a crime.

      No. Just no. You (generally) don't have any obligation to pro-actively notify someone else of their mistakes. And not doing so certainly isn't fraud.

      • +1

        No obligation to report, but "you should notify your bank"[1] - obviously it's the right thing to do anyway.

        Also "You should not spend or withdraw the money transferred into your account by mistake because it is not legally yours and you have to pay it back."[1].

        OP's friend should continue to chase the funds for as long as it's worth their time, effort, and money to do so. They're entitled to have the money back and they will almost certainly (eventually) get it.

        [1] https://www.fos.org.au/custom/files/docs/fact-sheet-mistaken…

        Edit: I see that the ePayments Code described in [1] does not cover businesses, so the info does not apply to OP's case. Left here anyway.

      • If they left the money in the account, the bank should have been able to take it back. If they withdrew the money then surely that counts as theft or something similar?

        • Only if they knew or reasonably should've known it wasn't their money. Lots of possible situations where that may not be the case, e.g.:

          1. It's a long dormant account and the person literally doesn't remember how much money may have been in there previously;

          2. It's a large investment/transactions account with many thousands in transactions every day;

          3. It's an account belonging to one person but managed by another (children for overseas or elderly parents, wife for a businessman husband, etc).

          Not saying this was the case, but they're all possible which is why you can't jump to: "Money is gone == crime has been committed."


          Oh - and the onus isn't on someone to prove their innocence, it's on the accuser to show guilt.

    • +10

      I'd sneak a dollar into everyone's account and call them up a year later accusing them of fraud unless they returned the dollar and "opportunity costs". I estimate that value at $10,000.

      Profit.

      • +4

        Dear tshow and/or lawyer,

        Re: letter of demand, 21 Feb 2019.

        Your $1 is enclosed within this envelope, in the form of a limited-edition "Mr Squiggle" coin. We believe we had taken all reasonable steps to attempt return this amount when the potentially erroneous transaction was first noticed on Feb 23 2018, but when we performed internet searches on the term "tshow", the results were disturbing, to say the least. We are confident a court will find our process sufficient (see attachment 1, internet search logs, a list of telephone calls, and complete text of internet messages exchanged with the financial institution).

        Absent proof of your claimed $10 000 in opportunity costs, we are unable to comment on the legitimacy of such, but as per above we dismiss this as irrelevant.

        Our client has suffered severe emotional distress as a result of your, we believe, vexatious claim, and we hereby notify you of our intent to claim $250 000 in compensation for same.

        Best Regards.

        • +3

          Dear Mr/Ms/Mrs/? ABB,

          Thank you for your prompt response.

          We are pleased to inform you that we accept your compensation in the form of a "$1 Mr Squiggle". This is very much in line with Adml tshow's numimastic inclinations and as such, we have valued it at $10,000 and have processed this as completion of settlement.

          Unfortunately, we were not provided with a certificate of authenticity.

          As you very well would understand, we had to question the legitimacy of the coin above. We engaged the foremost experts to independantly identify and value the coin. The process was tedious and occupied significant man-hours as well as complex tests to acertain the authenticity and origin of the coin.

          We have paid for these studies on abb's behalf and have forwarded the cost of $250,001.00 to your office.

          Kindest regards
          The Office of Admiral tshow

    • +7

      What if it's an account the person doesn't check often and hasn't noticed?

      What if they did enquire with their bank about the transfers received?

      Your comment is total nonsense

    • +2

      I for one don't actively check my accounts on transactions as I have multiple income/outlays from varying range of jobs and investments

      If I am send those money, I for one will not realise until much later that I have been receiving free 2k per month from an unknown source.

      You cant blame the person receiving the money for this… the only person to blame is the sender.

      • It was $2,000 per WEEK. If the recipient was rich enough not to notice that, then they are rich enough to pay it back.

        Stupid mistake by the sender, but the recipient is still not entitled to the money.

        • +4

          Well it's also stupid to assume that the recipient knows about the money, and checks the account every few months.

          I have a citibank account that I only use to withdraw cash when overseas, but it has $0 balance ever since ING came up with overseas ATM fee rebates.
          I've not logged into the account in more than 6 months (just checked and I don't have $22k in there). Can't bother to close the account.

          I also know more than a few people who lived in Aus temporarily and had bank accounts here. It's a requirement with some banks to physically be present at the bank to close accounts. They go back to their home country to realise the same so they withdraw all the money and abandon the accounts and let the account get closed in 7yrs or so due to dormancy.

          • +1

            @FirstWizard: In your examples then, the recovery attempts should not fail and there wouldn't be an issue…unless it took place over 7 months ago and they cannot reach the account holder maybe?

            • +3

              @John Kimble: Could be. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact reason why the fund recovery was unsuccessful.

              Some reasons I could easily think of could be:

              • Maybe one of the banks does not subscribe to ePayments code.
              • Maybe the recipient account had a sweep feature to transfer money to a different account when it's above a certain limit. Meaning the receiving account has insufficient funds. (not sure if this is possible. Also, UBank is not party to the ePayments code, dunno if they inherit this as they are a subsidiary of NAB)
              • Maybe the receiving bank is not satisfied that this was indeed a mistaken payment. OP clearly states that this account has been once paid to in 2016 and they did not complain at that time. (In this case the recipient consent is required to recover the funds, and the user is uncontactable)

              Also according to the ePayments code, the Bank S usually cannot tell the user to contact a third-party to aid with recovery.

              He has contacted Bank S again, they told him they couldn't help him anymore, he should contact the person who wrongly received his money directly. Is this a correct advice?

    • I'll even out the neg for you. This situation has been played out before, and people have been charged for spending money that wasn't rightfully theirs (even when it has dropped into their account by mistake).

      The person who has received the funds in error should be chased for this (assuming it is worthwhile doing so).

      eg… https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/finders-arent-keepers/ne…

  • +27

    Your friend or … yourself ?

    • +4

      DUN DUN

  • +47

    Im interested in understanding how it took 11 pay cycles for the employee to figure out they were not being paid. Your friends story sounds a bit fishy.

    • +17

      Also who gets paid exactly $2000? Story doesn't quite add up. Something fishy going on…

      • +14

        Something fishy like… approximation?

    • correct. the intended recipient should notice he/she is missing 2 grands. that's a lot of money. blame him! kidding

    • He is in restaurant business, I didn't ask him why he has to pay $2000 to someone weekly and why it took 11 weeks to discover, he didn't divulge, I didn't ask.

      He could be paying to an employee, or a supplier, or as some kind of arrangements. He didn't tell me, I didn't ask either.

      I can just put it: Mistaken Internet Payment, how should I recover it. But it doesn't make an interesting reading, is it?

      And it's really done by my friend, not an imaginative one.

      • +1

        Ask him to check with his accountant whether he can get a deduction on the amount to soften the blow.

        • Why would you get a deduction for this?

          • +1

            @trapper: Actually, they might.
            I'm not an accountant, but they would need to do something with that value in their financial accounts or their cash flow / profit & loss statements won't be correct.
            At the least, it will reduce any operating profit the business makes.

            • +1

              @GG57: You can't claim a tax deduction for lost or misplaced cash.

              • @trapper: I believe you.
                But the loss has to be accounted for somehow, and will ultimately reduce any operating profit.

                • @GG57: It's counted in the same way as if you spent it at the casino.

  • +11

    So employee who was meant to be paid did not get paid, "11 times!". Yeah, right.

    • and each is $2k. twenty two thousand dollars!

      • Seems a bit far fetched… Unless the restaurant is making a boat load of coin there is no reason to not notice an extra 22k missing. Fark my business I would notice the 2k and yell at the wife.

        • I'm going to call it. BS

  • +36

    It took 11 pay runs for somebody to notice they weren’t getting paid? Most people would notice when the first payment is missing!

    • +12

      I would notice 1 day in advance

  • +4

    This doesn't really make sense. If the wrong payee was selected it's not the bank's fault it took 11 transfers before the realisation it was the wrong account. Why is the bank responsible for your friend's error?

    • Because the easy way out is to blame someone else. Problem solved.

    • +2

      They didn't say the bank is responsible for the error. They want the bank to help fix the error - something that is certainly under their remit given they are the people operating the account.

      If we all had access to the banks systems and could initiate payment reversals etc.
      ourselves you may have a point. Clearly that is never going to happen though…

  • +4

    'Your friend' should really take more care!

  • +1

    I wouldn't mind clearing $2000 a week. I wouldn't need to monitor Ozbargain for good deals any more.

    I'm sure I'd notice not receiving my pay for 11 weeks, I call shenanigans here.

    • I clear more but still feel good with my dozens of USB-C cables for a combined total of less than a hundred bucks saved.

      Maybe it is hereditary.

      • but still feel good with my dozens of …

        How do you feel about the space in your home? :)

        • +1

          Each car has two cables. Each bedroom in each house has 2 cables. Then there's the garage, machine sheds, garden sheds.

          I'm pretty solid on the storage front.

    • +1

      once an ozbargainer, always an ozbargainer

    • You're forgetting that the majority of ozbargainers are quite wealthy, you need money to spend money.

    • I find it the opposite, the more I have, the more I'm on ozbargain spending it :(

  • +3

    Hopefully it's gets resolved.

    May I make a suggestion to use next time for large amounts. If it's possible, get all of the details, Acc number, Bsb & name. Send a small amount of $10 and see if it goes through, when it does you know it's correct. I always do this incase the person gives wrong info, for my own sanity as well.

  • +16

    I don’t get it. Whenever a discussion come up about:

    1. A person sent money to wrong account
      Most people agree that the money can’t be recovered

    2. A person received unknown money in their account
      Most people agree that the money should not be spent and can be forcefully taken from him/her one way or another.

    Which one is right guys?

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