Solar to The Home and Considering Replacing Gas Things

Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:10

Hi all,

Hoping someone here has insight on switching their home to electricity only (after getting solar) and eliminating gas.

Started looking into getting panels, but still see the cost of having gas supplied to the house and gas usage being an issue.

Stovetop ➡️ switching to induction
Gas hot water system ➡️ tank/electricity?

The stovetops <$2000 to swap over, but anyone with experience of buying a new hot water system recently for a rough cost?

Trying to work out break even cost of cutting out Gas supply (approx $300 a year + usage).

Thanks in advance.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • voiletmay on 24/03/2019 - 14:38
    +2

    If your house has one of those instant gas hot water systems, I wouldn't be changing, those things are wonderful. I live in an area where there is only electricity, and I defintely miss the amazing instant hot water system in our previous house. I also can't get solar due to a large tree and the shape of my roof. You are lucky you have options.

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:47
      +1

      I'm of the same opinion, the amazing-ness of instant hot water is the only thing making me not rip out every gas appliance at home at the moment. Still a financial argument I guess.

      • 0FoxGiven on 24/03/2019 - 22:44
        +1

        Get heat pump hotwater system. Hot water is heated, stored and ready to go always. And if the heating is done during daytime when the sun is out, with solar panet system it would cost you nothing to run. Heat pump systems has a rebate which brings the price down further. Beats gas water heating any day.

        For cooking induction (I recently moved from gas) beats gas IMHO. Cooking is so much more faster and even. In summers, the kitchen doesn't get as hot and stuffy as its used to when cooking with gas. Only gripes is the more limited option on utensils that can be used. Curved/ semi spherical woks and stuff dont play well on the flat induction surface.

        • Ozbargainlyf on 25/03/2019 - 09:21
          +1

          Heat pump sounds good. I was always going to switch to induction if we ever did a reno, definitely makes sense with the curved stuff though.

          • skillet on 25/03/2019 - 11:06

            @Ozbargainlyf: Heat pump is the way to go in many warmer parts of Australia. Put them in the roof if the structure permits, thats where all the heat is.

        • SlickMick on 25/03/2019 - 15:11

          +1 for the heat pump. A top of the line gas instant heat might be great, but older ones can suck badly. We got sick of cold showers and got a gas plumber out. He said he'd dumped his for a heat pump. When a gas tradie says go heat pump, that says heaps imo.

          We got a fancy electronic one that shows the current temperature and lets you set multiple times to come on during the day. But we only have it on for 2 hours in the afternoon, and it brings water back to 60 degrees. (I had it on for 1 hr, but it was only getting back to ~55 - which is hotter than you need, but I think you're supposed to have at 60 to kill bugs??)

          That's our step #1 of doing exactly same as OP wants to.

          I deliberately looked for a gas house because I prefer cooking with gas. But this house has piped LPG, which is really expensive. The stove is old and can't control the heat well, and as you say induction is better anyway.

          I always thought gas was a good backup (at least you have some source of power in a blackout), but it's far too expensive for that. The bbq will have to do as the backup.

          • resisting the urge on 26/03/2019 - 12:19

            @SlickMick: +2 The Sanden heat pump HWS is excellent, mine is 2 years old and doing a brilliant job. Best quality unit I could find, and then some.

            As you have excess kWh from the PV array, the small amount of energy these use (<1kWh opposed to 3.8kwh for a normal tank element) is pretty much covered- you can even set them to heat during the middle of the day which reduces any utilisation from the grid and ensures your excess generation gets used. Even on a cloudy day, you can still produce enough power for one of these, assuming you aren't using the power otherwise.

            However, at the cost (thousands) you may be better to install an evacuated tube panel on the roof with a storage tank somewhere, which is backed up by an element when temperature drops below your chosen threshold. These are cheaper, increase your overall solar absorption and won't cost that much for a few cloudy days especially if you don't use much Hot Water- the tubes are much more effective at heating water than using PV to make electricity and then use that to heat your water (the losses add up).

            However after doing your HW, you are left with the cost of converting all your gas appliances to electric is another cost. I'd shy away from that and simply get bottled gas, once your HW is free your actual gas usage drops so much bottle replacement is so infrequent that the cost is immaterial. Avoiding the gas supply fee however is a goal well-kicked.

            • SlickMick on 27/03/2019 - 10:57

              @resisting the urge: Without doing the figures, I'm not so sure the evacuated tube panels on the roof are more beneficial than solar panels.
              My aim is everything is just electric, and my roof is my power generation factory. My long game is battery storage.

              Converting from mains gas to lpg bottles I guess might be okay if OP doesn't want to fully electric (I wouldn't see this as a sensible short-term plan), but just have to check local council rules. One person here was allowed, I wasn't.

              My mid-range plan would be use the bbq until we can go electric. Still paying for gas atm though.

              • resisting the urge on 27/03/2019 - 17:55

                @SlickMick: I'd not put my HWS on PV as roof space is certainly better used by evacuated tubes, especially if any of it gets shaded during the day.

                Also, conversion losses are far less. Battery and inverter impact/wear from heating HW all the time is a big cost, and more hassle/maintenance effort too.
                As an electric element can still be used as a backup in the tank, you are also covered for the occasional high use day. And, even in case of failure of the PV system, the HWS will still work (almost as well).

                My calc is that you would have to use 3 PV solar panels to replace a 2 evac tube solar panel system if you were using it to heat your water, just due to the daily change in angle on light across the panels. In the event of shade (cloudy location or trees) you may need 4 PV panels- which means a lot of extra expense. Fixing broken Evacuated tubes in the event of hail is also just as easy as replacing PV panels (but much easier to handle up on the roof), (I keep a spare set handy for insurance)

                Remember, new appliances usually come with the jets to make them work with LPG or Natural gas, depending on what they have fitted. The jets are easy to get, and retrofitting is simple, but can require an expert hand, if they are old and in a dirty/damp location in the appliance.

                • SlickMick on 28/03/2019 - 10:33

                  @resisting the urge: It might depend where you are, but my heat pump only has to run 1-2 hours per day. For the rest of the day that space could be used to produce energy for other appliances, rather than being typed up just for hot water.

                  I haven't done any figures, but it just seems to me that hot water, with a heat pump, is a small use of power and my main requirement would be power for other devices, hence I need the roof space.

                  • resisting the urge on 28/03/2019 - 11:43

                    @SlickMick: Sure, 1-2 hours a day at just above 1kWh is a small amount of hot water usage.

                    HWS are usually sized for maximum usage, so that is low use. Not accurate, but an indication.

                    So your average use is say, 2-3kWh- which means an evac tube service would heat the same amount of water in around 1 hour, from two panels- and not depend on sunny days to work as you described(!)

                    But, given your HW use is low, you could easily live with a single panel, cheapening it somewhat, and allow more roof space for the PV you would otherwise have there. Is your roof always unshaded? The handy aspect is that evac tubes give the flexibility to use a more shady section, less suitable for PV generation.

  • pao2x on 24/03/2019 - 14:40

    How much gas and electricity do you use? Can you fit a large enough solar system?
    You will miss gas cooking, induction cooking is crap

    IMHO the cost associated with converting from gas to elec in cooking and hot water etc would take you more than 5 years to recoup? Not worth it. Just sell your solar @ 20C/KWH

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:49
      +3

      Can I ask why induction is crap? In theory, the science should make it a better cooking format; no heat loss and instantaneous heat?

      That kind of ROI is incredible. Imagine your shares or house doubling in value in 5 years.

      • pao2x on 24/03/2019 - 15:37

        Not exactly ROI, its more like back to starting point because you would devalue your gas assets.

      • [Deactivated] on 24/03/2019 - 18:25
        +3

        I have induction and it has converted many to induction so I'm a likely poster child for induction cooktops but there's one thing an induction top doesn't do as well as gas.

        Gas flames heat the air around the food as well. This means a better distribution of heat and less water condensation.

        I'd still go induction any day of the week because it's hard as hell to clean a gas stove after every meal.

        • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 18:35

          so drier cooking/searing?

          • [Deactivated] on 24/03/2019 - 18:37

            @Ozbargainlyf: Yes. Unless you spend a few grand on a strong rangehoods that will move the humidity out before it condenses, you're going to have water beading and dripping from above the induction top.

        • Lastchancetosee on 25/03/2019 - 08:08

          Yes +++ for cleaning. Glass splash back instead of tiles. FTW.

  • RockyRaccoon on 24/03/2019 - 14:46
    +2

    Its not that simple and BTW $300 PA seems high for just supply.

    If you are thinking you can use your solar energy to directly replace your gas usagae, you need to fully understand how it works in SA.

    There is agood article here

    https://www.canstarblue.com.au/solar-power/guide-solar-power…

    You need to understand feedin and usage tariffs.

    A simple example. You get stay 15c as feed in tariff you pay 40c for power usage and say 20c for off peak

    Then when sun is shining you use the power so you in effect get a 20c saving

    But then comes along a cloudy day and you then draw from the grid, you then are paying 40c.

    This assumes you dont rush out everytime it clouds over and turn off the hot water heater.

    So while you could save money using your solar power to heat your water, it only works while the sun is up.

    Also solar generates most midday and not much just before sunset or just after sunrise..

    Before making changes why not get the solar, then see how your energy use/generation really works, then switch.

    We have solar and kept our gas, as when cooking. Late afternoon/evening, our electricity costs rise significantly (time of use rates), so cooking with gas compares very well to the peak electricity rates.

    If you have a blackout, you lose electricity as the solar doesnt work without being on the grid (although there are some very new inverters that may work independently of the grid)

    Then factor in the cost of replacing the water heater, stove vs the cost difference between gas and electricity and as you know the weekly supply cost.

    Hope some of this helps

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:51

      Great help, thank you. Will read through the link.

  • holdenmg on 24/03/2019 - 14:47

    In Adelaide with the prospect of Electricty Power Cuts still possible, have you considered Electricity Supplied, +Solar Panels, +Battery?

    Hot Water Tank Electric, do you mean Heat Pump?
    e.g. Chromagen, Dux,

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:50

      Highly considered, but battery is out of the question at the moment, not with our medium usage. Makes the ROI approximately 10 years.

      I don't know the options frankly for electric, have always had gas, I just imagined a big hot water tub and heating it up? Is that a Heat pump?

  • follow on 24/03/2019 - 14:55

    just change your hot water to a heat pump
    run the stove off gas bottles

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 14:58

      Any rough ideas of cost of heat pumps? $2000 seems to be the rough google search.

      • follow on 24/03/2019 - 15:09
        +1

        depends on the unit
        you can get a chromagen 170L one for around $1400 + $500 install.
        rebate of around $1200

  • Quantumcat on 24/03/2019 - 15:01

    Look at changing to gas bottles - the gas is more expensive but at least you don't have to pay the supply charge.

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 15:12

      And these would be those 10kg cans from petrol stations/bunnings etc?

      • kipps on 24/03/2019 - 16:16

        No. You can get massive 90kg+ LPG tanks which are regularly refilled and avoid supply charges.

    • Master Bates on 24/03/2019 - 17:18

      There is a supply charge, it’s called bottle rental, which is charged on an annual basis up front.

      • Quantumcat on 24/03/2019 - 17:42

        I think it's only about $40 a year though instead of $300

        Oh and also your appliances have to be adjusted as it is a different kind of gas

    • iand on 24/03/2019 - 19:20

      you will need to have the stove adjusted to run off LPG instead of natural gas

    • SlickMick on 25/03/2019 - 15:16

      and I think it's illegal. Well we have mains LPG, and I was told I can't ditch the supply and use bottles :(

      • kale chips suck on 25/03/2019 - 15:28

        I had mains natural and ditched it for bottled LPG, so I very much doubt that.

        I'm in Victoria. Also, I did have to have the gas meter removed.

        Just tell them you want the meter removed.

      • Quantumcat on 25/03/2019 - 16:03

        Talk to a different gas fitter, they can't force you to pay supply charge for something you don't want, surely :-(

  • cookietime on 24/03/2019 - 17:52
    +1

    Here's my setup for a three-adult household:
    - 5.5 Kw (or thereabout) solar system
    - Sanden heat pump hot water (250 L - total cost was about $4500 after rebate) - even when we had 4-5 guests staying over, we didn't run out of hot water. Comparing with my in-law's instant hot water gas system, I think the Sanden is at least the same, possibly better. Hot water comes out after about 15 seconds for a bathroom that is 20m away from the tank.
    - Induction cooktop - absolutely love it. I wouldn't go back to gas

    One of us works from home 2-3 days/week so the washing machine and dishwasher are on during the day, all charging is also done during daytime.

    Our energy bills went from ~$2500 pa to a bit less than $200 pa.

    Make sure that you negotiate with your energy provider to get a good feed-in rate. Two years ago I got a good rate so my total bills were $100 per year. Last year I forgot to check, the bills went to $200.

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 18:34

      Really helpful thank you!

  • atris17 on 24/03/2019 - 19:51

    Sort of Similar situation, given that I had no gas in my area.
    So I was force to used Electric Hot Water Tank
    So this is what I did

    Electric Hot Water tank + Solar Panels + [Paladin Solar Power Diverter]!
    = Decrease Utility Bill

    Google Paladin Solar Power Diverter
    Excess Solar Energy is diverted to the Hot Water tank
    Hot water tank act as a Battery, storing excess energy in the form of heat
    Large Hot water tank last the night, for variety purpose Eg shower etc
    By morning the Hot water tank get heated up again with Excess Solar Energy
    Selling Excess Energy from solar panel to grid only attract very little ROI

    Check it out: http://www.paladinsolarcontroller.com.au/
    Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnuNXKzdxXI

    Speak to Matt from Paladin, i deal with him when he came to my house
    Very Friendly, easy to talk too
    He is base in Brisbane too

    Refer my name - MarK from Brisbane

    • Ozbargainlyf on 24/03/2019 - 19:56

      Will have a look. Sounds like a great idea watching the youtube video

      • atris17 on 24/03/2019 - 21:28

        It was a hidden gem, when i found out about it

        • You will save yourself in gas bill to heat up the water
        • Payback period for Solar Panel will be shortern too
        • I recommend u get 400L hot water tank, as it support my household of 5ppl + for hot water usage
        • 1/3 Of electrical bill involve heating and cooling
        • RockyRaccoon on 25/03/2019 - 13:40

          and what is the cost for this unit?

          How does it work when solar is down very low. (eg today we are getting only a 10th of what we get on a clear day)

          • atris17 on 25/03/2019 - 18:06

            @RockyRaccoon:

            • Paladin cost around 1000, Installation i believe around 500

            • They need to Link the Paladin with the Hot Water tank, also they need to insert a temperature gauge

            • For Low Sunny Day, the Paladin will keep the Hot water tank to minimum temperature of 40c throughout the day and night

            • For Sunny Day, the Paladin will keep the Hot Water tank to 70c, up until there no sun.
            • Buying Electricity from Retailer will cost $0.30cent per Unit KWH
            • Selling Electricity to Retailer will bring in $0.10cent per Unit KWH
            • It is better to used up all the unused solar production KWH for some purpose eg Battery, Hot Water Tank
            • RockyRaccoon on 25/03/2019 - 19:31

              @atris17: Fair enough, but I still cant make the sums.

              It costs $1500 thats a big investment

              Off peak hotwater rates that I have access to is 11.5c a Kwh (my feed in tariff being 11c) but even if it was 10c the 1.5c different doesn't add up plus I get hot water all the time rather than reduced heat on cloudy days.

              Or am I missing something in my calcs

    • Hoofee on 25/03/2019 - 10:55

      If the hot water is an electric system, wouldn't it already be using the solar panel's power + grid to keep it up to temp even if you don't have a paladin system? Or is it heating the stored water beyond 60deg?

      Or is the hot water system typically on a different circuit than the house and/or typically isn't supplied by the solar panels?

      What am I missing?

      • moar bargains on 25/03/2019 - 19:26

        Electric (storage) hot water is typically on a different circuit so that it can be heated when demand is lowest (~3am) and hence gets charged a lower rate. In this setup, you have no control over when the power flows to your hot water, as it's up to the discretion of the network operator. Hence, to make use of your own solar, you need to switch it to the main circuit. However, this also gives you limited control, as it's just thermostat controlled to maintain the temperature, so you need a solar diverter to limit it to only run when you have excess solar (and then use main grid to top up if necessary).

        • RockyRaccoon on 25/03/2019 - 19:39

          Exactly my thoughts.

          Which is what my initial setup was when I added the solar, until I realised that my alternative cost with off peak (CLoad 2) was only 11.5c vs 11c I get from selling to the grid. The .5c saving didnt justify the occasional need to use the grid duriing the day when the sun was too weak. My Shoulder rate being 18c and peak being 40c.

          I had the electrician reconnect the hot water to off peak and my bill dropped quite a bit. (thankfully I hadn't had the energy company remove the off peak meter)

          I just cant see how a $1500 investment will get any ROI with that small savings. And if we have a few wet/cloudy days like this last week, it would be a higher cost

          Adding another kWh or more of panels would be a better investment

          • moar bargains on 25/03/2019 - 20:25
            +1

            @RockyRaccoon: Yeah, in that case it obviously doesn't make sense. But in SA we don't really have ToU, and my CL rate is ~28c/kWh. At the moment I'm getting ~54c/kWh feed in tariff from my 6.6kW system though, and so I'm not really worried about switching hot water at the moment as we're generating heaps more credit than we use. When I stop getting this high FiT though, I will be looking at switching.

  • atris17 on 25/03/2019 - 18:20
    +1
    • My Hot Water tank is not connected to it own Solar Panels. It a stand alone one
    • The Paladin is some sort of AI, it monitor the Hot Water tank temperate, Household Real time energy consumption and Solar Production
    • It will heat up the Hot Water tank to about 70c for a 400L tank, enough to last throughout the night for a family of 5+
    • Basically all my excess unused solar energy will be diverted to the Hot Water tank, and any surplus will go to the grid
    • For Low Sunny Day, the Paladin will keep the Hot water tank to minimum temperature of 40c throughout the day and night

    • Minimizing drawing electricity from the grid whenever possible

    • Normally Hot Water tank draw electricity from the grid day and night to maintain the Hot Water temperature

    • This is to prevent legionnaire bacteria growth
    • My first quarter bill was crazy when i build the house, i haven't even used the hot water at all
    • The paladin shut off the drawing of electricity at night, up until it goes below 40c

    Summary
    - The Hot Water Tank is a Natural Battery
    - Energy cant be created or destroy,It can be converted to one form to another
    - I choose to convert the energy into Heat

  • moar bargains on 25/03/2019 - 20:49

    You definitely should get solar, and then consider the gas stuff down the track. Assuming you have a reasonable roof, a solar system in SA should pay itself back in less than 5 years, but last easily 10, which is something like a 30% ROI. As you said above, that sort of ROI coupled with the very low risk is incredible! Use this online calculator to estimate your payback time: https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-power-system-payba…

    Since you are in SA, you may want to consider the (well hidden, but still available AFAIK) free* heat pump hot water system offer from Chromagen: http://www.chromagen.com.au/smarterhotwater.

    There are a few caveats though. The 170L tank is free (installation included), but the larger one (better for larger families/regular visitors), is ~$800 installed from memory. Also, reviews on these units are mixed, you may decide you want to spring for a better quality unit?

    Also, check out the SA Government hot water heater running cost calculator: https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/energy-and-environment/using-sa…
    You can put in the details of your house and household, and it will give you estimated running costs of various hot water systems. You can change the upfront cost of instant gas to $0, since it's already installed, and see what it shows. Unfortunately you can't enter your own tariffs but it will give you an indication.

    Hope that helps, but you should certainly get on the solar train!

    • Ozbargainlyf on 25/03/2019 - 22:08
      +1

      definitey going to hop on solar at this stage. Thanks for your help. Will look into the hot water system.

      • moar bargains on 26/03/2019 - 00:47

        Great! Let me know if I can help with info about solar as I recently went through the process of getting a system myself.

  • lgacb08 on 27/03/2019 - 23:00
    +1

    like therog1 said, just get solar first and then wait for a year to see how your usage pattern align before committing further upgrade, I was also on a similar situation, just got my solar up and running and thinking of ditching gas. But I'm in VIC so still have to consider gas heating in winter, I have split that can be used for heating too but it's not the same. As for hot water and cooking, I found my gas cost to be around $2/day including 90c supply charge (cooking around 50c, we only do cooking at dinner) so unless they break then there's little incentive to replace. One thing you can look at if you haven't is planning to run appliance during solar generation hour like oven, dishwasher and the laundry. The dishwasher is one that help you save a lot from both water and electricity if you plan cycle properly

    • Ozbargainlyf on 28/03/2019 - 10:20

      thank you! makes a lot of sense.

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