[AMA] I screwed my life up with Nootropics.

Word on 06/04/2019 - 10:35
Last edited 08/04/2019 - 11:26 by 1 other user

After reading an article published in a magazine by the American Tinnitus that sarcosine helped tinnitus.

Sarcosine is also reported on PubMed as having "no know toxicity" and no cases of adverse side effects were reported.

Sadly, I was not in soundest of minds when researching the drug due to having hyperaccusives and living in a street where people love to rev their cars.

Therefore, I misunderstood the mechanism of the drug and thought it helped with damaged nerves.

However, the drug turned out to be NMDA agonist so my temporary mild tinnitus turned into severe tinnitus which is causing me great pain each day.

AMA.

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  • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 10:46

    Modafinil?

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:01

      Nope. Sarcosine NMDA agonist.

      • bringbring on 07/04/2019 - 07:00
        +11

        Strictly speaking it acts a 'co-agonist' at the glycine site of NMDA receptors, primarily by inhibiting the reuptake of glycine (athough it also acts directly at higher concs). In most cases there is sufficient glycine (or the equivalent D-serine) around so it won't make a huge difference to NMDAR activity. In fact, as the rise in glycine leads to inhibitory actions via strychnine sensitive glycine receptors, glycine reuptake inhibitors including sarcosine have mild anticonvulsant activity. It is not excitotoxic.

        I don't believe you caused any serious, permanent alteration in your brain chemistry due to the sarcosine. Presumably you made this link after reading that sarcosine is an NMDAR agonist, but can I ask whether you have any other evidence to suggest that it is responsible for the worsening of your tinnitus? Also, I 100% understand that most doctors are very frustrated and dismissive of patients self medicating and ignoring their advice, and it is hard to have them assess your case without bias. Regardless, what is their opinion regarding the sarcosine and your prognosis?

        Please consider that it might have been a coincidence, and that your condition may at least be partly psychosomatic. And most importantly, it can improve!!

        • Word on 07/04/2019 - 21:14

          Hopefully this is the case.

          Especially, as one of the doctors who took the time to research the drug stated the dosage is unlikely to have resulted in any damage.

          He based this off the fact that FDA trails are unlikely to give a toxic dosage.

          Regardless, this is my hearing so I am very sensitive about it being damaged.

          Than yet again:
          https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016801020…

          Regardless, if experts are are claiming that the drug is unlikely to cause damage than it makes feel a little better about my mistake.

          As either they are right or there is little evidence to suggest the drug is dangerous.

          Granted they might of miss the connection between how glutamate reacts poorly to sarcosine.

          Tinnitus increases glutamate.

  • thatonethere on 06/04/2019 - 11:01
    +3

    Did you get a medical opinion before using this medication? Or self prescribe?

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:03
      -1

      Before taking the drug the GP and ENT were aware of my intentions to take the drug.

      Granted they stated they were against self medication and were trying to put me on an antidepressant.

      They were also against me taking Pine Bark Extract (Pycnogenol) which is safe.

      • cktftw on 06/04/2019 - 12:18
        +31

        And to think doctors should know better…. ooops…. they do

          • parsimonious one on 06/04/2019 - 13:57
            +66

            @Word: Sigh… surely you realise that the vast majority of doctors have no incentive whatsoever to prescibe you medication you don’t need or that is unlikely to benefit you?

            Most doctors, in my experience, are against anything that doesn’t have a sound evidence base and that includes most “supplements”.

            There is a name for supplements that are proven to work….(drum roll)…. medicines.

              • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 19:31
                +24

                @Word: Yes, because you've done so well deciding what you should use to treat yourself - look what has happened.

                Vitamins are a utter waste of time in most circumstances.

                • Shmexalicious on 06/04/2019 - 21:08
                  +1

                  @[Deactivated]: Vitamins are in fact NOT an utter waste of time in most circumstances. Many people have a deficient in vitamin D and magnesium, among others. Just because you can manage with a deficit doesn't mean you should.

                  I will however concede that a large portion of multivitamins or vitamins sold by popular brands are completely insufficient sources, the dosage recommended is well below the RDI.

                  • Word on 07/04/2019 - 12:50
                    -3

                    @Shmexalicious: Exactly.

                    For example rainbow light seems to be the wholefoods vitamin which reaches the RDI.

              • Deridas on 07/04/2019 - 16:35
                +4

                @Word: @Word

                I love it how you quote the American healthcare system and link to an American website as though that's the case here in Australia.

                Oh how I wish doctors get kickbacks prescribing drugs here in Australia. They'll be lucky to get a pen nowadays.

            • sleet on 07/04/2019 - 04:37
              +5

              @parsimonious one: I think he missed your drumroll because of the worsening tinnitus

            • Cave Fire on 08/04/2019 - 18:40

              @parsimonious one: This sounds strange. Most doctors are on incentives from the big drug companies like roche, sanofi etc. If they are attached to a pharmacy, expect the rate of prescription medicine to be higher. Oh, and more expensive medicines at that location. They have targets to fill and incentives to meet.

          • Cyphar on 07/04/2019 - 12:12
            +3

            @Word:

            The doctors were trying to prescribe drugs which make tinnitus worse.

            The irony is you self-prescribed yourself something that 100% made your tinnitus worse.

            • Word on 07/04/2019 - 12:52
              -1

              @Cyphar: Granted.

              Although, doctors are capable of making tinnitus worse on their own.

        • T1OOO on 07/04/2019 - 10:38
          -4

          Erm yep. They would prefer to take their meds that they get kick backs from and the pretty sales rep girl that gives them a bonnet without the self prescribed viagra. Right. I’ll take their word.

      • Diji1 on 06/04/2019 - 12:37
        +5

        Granted they stated they were against self medication

        So they said no …

        They were also against me taking Pine Bark Extract (Pycnogenol) which is safe.

        Isn't that what you just said about the last stuff?

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 12:44

          Pycnogenol comprises mostly of polyphenols which are the antioxidants found in tea.

          So I cannot see how they are harmful.

          Regardless, I have stopped taking drugs at the moment.

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 13:34

          "So they said no"

          None of them really stated "no" rather they stated do more research.

          • DangerNoodle on 07/04/2019 - 05:50
            +6

            @Word: As someone who works as a pharmacist, my usual recommendation is that it is better to change your diet rather than add supplements. There have been observational studies performed that identified a link between vitamin use and increased risk of cancer mortality but lower risk of heart disease mortality. Whilst it is an observational study and only association was identified, with the data being insufficient to identify a causality link.

            I also have tinnitus and I have considered a lot of the treatments, but at the end of the day, I know everything has its risks. Medications often have to list anything that has been reported as a potential side effect in their CMIs, even if it wasn't caused by the drug it still has to be listed if it was observed by the study group. The keyword with natural supplements and alternative medicines is no "known" side effects. There are side effects, people who take supplements and alternative medicines don't tend to report them and since you can't patent a supplement, there is no money in conducting research. Most studies about vitamins and supplements tend to be anecdotal and biased with the exception of a few, which is the reason why most supplements and alternative supplements only say that they "may help relieve symptoms of …", They don't have data proving that it works and they don't want any liability.

            My decision was that I was willing to live with the severity of my tinnitus rather than risk making it worse.

            • Word on 07/04/2019 - 12:56
              -1

              @DangerNoodle: Look in hindsight I made a poor decisions there is no question.

              However, a lot of people make poor decisions when they are not in the right frame of reference.

            • Word on 07/04/2019 - 20:15
              -1

              @DangerNoodle: As a pharmacist what can you tell me about Sarcosine?

      • [Deactivated] on 07/04/2019 - 13:07
        +6

        So really, nootropics didn’t mess up your life. You did. You just want something to blame.

        • Word on 07/04/2019 - 13:31
          -6

          Some people would believe that to be the case.

          However, without being in my position I would reframe from making sweeping remarks

          Basically:

          Should I of taken the drug?

          Nope.

          Should the drug be available to purchase in the first?

          Nope.

          • CrushJelly on 07/04/2019 - 18:57
            +4

            @Word: That’s the same as saying:

            Should I have smoked the thousands of cigarettes? Nope.

            Should the cigarette be available to purchase in the first place? Nope.

            How absolutely ridiculous.

            • Word on 07/04/2019 - 19:07
              -2

              @CrushJelly: However, I was not abusing the drug.

              • diazepam on 08/04/2019 - 01:18
                +2

                @Word: Self medicating is abusing.
                "I only took cannabis/methamphetamine that one time and now I have drug induced psychosis"

  • JetBombat on 06/04/2019 - 11:04
    +5

    What's the purpose of humans?

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 13:22

      Procreation.

    • afoveht on 06/04/2019 - 13:53
      +8

      Each being that can construct the idea of purpose can have their own purpose, so long as it does not purposely interfere with the purpose of another being that can construct their own idea of purpose.

      Or to put it in a much more succinct and profound way: "Be excellent to each other and party on dudes."

      • dcep on 06/04/2019 - 17:35
        +1

        so what's the purpose ?

        • ely on 06/04/2019 - 20:01
          +2

          Asking what the purpose is.

        • tessel on 06/04/2019 - 20:58
          +3

          Butter, you get the butter…

    • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 14:48
      +4

      We live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. There is no purpose. We're inconsequential in the scheme of things.

      Isn't that why they invented religion?🤔

      • afoveht on 06/04/2019 - 18:15
        +1

        Each sentient being is the centre of their own experience of the universe. In that way we are not just not inconsequential but are the star of the show. When you're in severe pain or having an orgasm try to see if you can think otherwise. As the centre of the universe your purpose, should you choose to have one, is the whole reason the universe exists.

        Religion tries to impose purpose, the same way you just tried to remove it.

        • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 19:22
          +4

          I didn't try to remove it. I was just trying to human life in context :) Someday science is going to find the actual center of the universe and some people will be shocked to find that its not them. Not a dig, more a general comment.

          I honestly believe that life has no meaning a priori. We have no greater purpose, no pre-determined plan, no ultimate meaning. We have, in Sartre’s words, "no human nature", since there is nothing (e.g. God) outside of us which would conceive of it for us. We are simply here, and it is up to us to define ourselves. Life has no meaning, other than the one we choose to give it.

          So, I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. Are we?

          • dcep on 06/04/2019 - 20:12

            @[Deactivated]: what is your definition ?

            • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 20:13

              @dcep: You go first …

              • dcep on 06/04/2019 - 20:16
                +2

                @[Deactivated]: Still struggling. Might not find one this lifetime.

                • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 20:52

                  @dcep: 2 months ago , I thought I knew who I was. Now, I'm going through a bit of an existential angst.

                  Edit: Scratch that. I wish I had the luxury of wallowing in my existential angst but my toddler has entered his terrible twos phase with a vengeance. That's been keeping me busy when I'm not at work.

                  • susmind on 07/04/2019 - 01:14

                    @[Deactivated]: I wish I could get the toddlers autograph ! They were a major player on the, "Purpose Project".
                    A war time effort during the next great global war in the late 2020s to develop a mind bomb weapon which caused all the enemy civilians to become nihilists.
                    A shame that all our superannuation money was spent to complete the project but hey, you cant have everything.
                    So no retirement for all of us on the winning side, only work till you drop dead …

          • afoveht on 06/04/2019 - 22:43

            @[Deactivated]:

            Life has no meaning, other than the one we choose to give it. So, I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. Are we?

            In so far as we choose to give it to ourselves - yes. In so far as some are happy to force it on or take it from others - no.

      • tessel on 08/04/2019 - 06:53

        And alcohol…

  • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:14
    +1

    Are the effects reversible?

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:14

      Nope. Destroyed my nerves.

      Sadly, I am only 25 years old so life long disability.

      • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:17
        +1

        How do you alleviate the symptoms? Are you using TRT?

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:19
          +2

          TRT is not effective in my case.

          I just try survive each day and put up with it the best I can.

          • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:24

            @Word: I've just read your edit. Sheesh man ! That truly sucks.

            Do you have any co-morbidities? Are you seeing a psychologist to help you deal with how this is going to / is already affecting your life?

            • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:30

              @[Deactivated]: Depression and anxiety.

              The doctor also believes I suffer from OCD and that is why I cannot stop focusing on the tinnitus.

              Sadly, this is wrong the tinnitus is just plain awful and that is the reason for the obsession.

              • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:36

                @Word: Has your GP referred you to a psychologist? May I recommend seeing onec if only to help with your depression and anxiety?

                • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:39

                  @[Deactivated]: Been seeing one that specialises in tinnitus.

                  I can see the techniques being helpful for those with a mild case.

                  • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:40

                    @Word: Is she helping with the anxiety and depression?

                    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:40

                      @[Deactivated]: Sadly, no.

                      I am starting to think my only options is a drug out state or suicide.

                      Seeing a neurologist and a naturopath soon hopefully they will help.

                      • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:44

                        @Word: How long have you been seeing her? Are you on anti-depressants? Do you have suicidal ideation?

                        If you don't trust her, she won't be able to help. Perhaps ask to see another psy?

                        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:49
                          -4

                          @[Deactivated]: Let us keep the topic on track.

                          The thread was created to warn people of the damage of nootropics not to help me.

                          Especially, considering that I am a person with degrees in chemistry and Engineering (among others) and still managed to screw myself.

                          • Blargman2001 on 06/04/2019 - 13:57
                            +15

                            @Word: No wonder, I don't see pharmacology or physiology as a requirement for any of those degrees?

                          • parsimonious one on 06/04/2019 - 14:02
                            +19

                            @Word: Your post isn’t about nootropics; your warning should be about self medicating against the advice of medical professionals

                            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic

                            • Word on 06/04/2019 - 19:07

                              @parsimonious one: The GP also stated not to take whole food vitamins. I would hardly call taking a whole food vitamin self medicating.

                              Besides they did not state "not to take the drug" rather that they "only practice evidence based medicine and cannot comment".

                              So not really against their advice.

                          • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2019 - 21:23
                            +1

                            @Word:

                            The thread was created to warn people of the damage of nootropics not to help me.

                            Then this thread has derailed. Might be time to end the AMA?

                      • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:48
                        +1

                        @Word: Just saw your edit. Good luck with the neurologist. I wouldn't give up on finding a good psychologist though. The neurologist may help with the tinnitus but not with your mental health.

                        Edit: you just edited again.

                        The thread was created to warn people of the damage of nootropics not to help me.

                        of course. Thanks for the warning re nootropics then :)

                        • abb on 08/04/2019 - 10:45

                          @[Deactivated]: You're a good person, Jar Jar Binks.

                          (Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd say)

                          • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2019 - 21:29

                            @abb: Thanks 😊

                            But I do have a confession to make ( before someone diagnoses me with DID !) : my missus sometime uses my account. It's easy to know when it's her: she's the nice one 😉

      • Diji1 on 06/04/2019 - 12:38

        Nope. Destroyed my nerves.

        Oh damn, that is horrible, I'm sorry that happened.

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 13:31

          I almost avoided it.

          I thought to myself might as well do one last research on the drug.

          Than a loud motorcycle passed by my house, tinnitus was set off and I took it in hopes my tinnitus would subside.

      • moph on 06/04/2019 - 14:30
        +6

        You have stated that your tinnitus is worse since taking the sarcosine, but do you have any reason other than that to believe that you have permanent nerve damage?

        You're young and your body is resilient, you might be surprised at what healing can occur in the long run with good diet, exercise, and generally looking after yourself.

        I've also been through health challenges where I thought I might never recover, and I also experimented with many left field or not medically-advised treatments and for the most part I found them useless or worse. But once I decided to leave those alone (except for a few things which I knew were genuinely helping) I have recovered, and although I still have to look after myself carefully, I'm stronger than I was before. Not the same thing as you are going through, but don't lose hope.

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 19:32

          Assymetrical hearing.

      • Blue Cat on 07/04/2019 - 16:48

        Will you get disability payments from Centrelink for life?

        • Word on 07/04/2019 - 16:58

          No.

  • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:21

    What is your GP advice today

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:32
      -1

      Take an antidepressant.

      Antidepressants are known to make tinnitus worse.

      • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2019 - 11:53

        Antidepressants are known to make tinnitus worse.

        Source?

        I had a friend who was prescribed xanax for his tinnitus and found that it was helpful in alleviating his symptoms.

        • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:58
          +1

          The withdrawal effects of benzos are well documented to induce tinnitus due to a GABA imbalance.

          • Deridas on 07/04/2019 - 16:37
            +1

            @Word: Benzos aren't an antidepressant.

            You're not supposed to withdraw from benzos.

            • Word on 07/04/2019 - 16:41

              @Deridas: I never stated Benzos were an antidepressant.

              SSRI are the antidepressants that cause problems.

        • Diji1 on 06/04/2019 - 12:39
          +2

          Also Xanax is unsuitable for long term use.

      • diazepam on 08/04/2019 - 01:28

        Probably true, but that's with all the negative media press behind it and it's usually the mob with pitchforks and sharpened knives that speak the loudest.

        The side effects of SSRI's are reversible (aside from serotonin syndrome). I would still recommend trialing it, and I've seen it used to good effect in some patients (and of course worsening in others). I have yet to see it be irreversible.

    • cktftw on 06/04/2019 - 12:18
      +13

      I think he meant ask me anything - AMA

    • Diji1 on 06/04/2019 - 12:47

      I'd be more worried about the fact that you, the tax payer, pays for the research. The research is then used by private business to develop and sell drugs to you.

      This isn't a problem in a tightly regulated environment but we can all see what happens in a loosely regulated one: USA.

    • afoveht on 06/04/2019 - 14:08

      … not one of these things is discovered or developed by medicos - it's all science and scientists.

      While the overall sentiment of your comment may be valid this bit certainly isn't. Certainly not most medics, but some of them are heavily involved in r&d. I know a couple personally who are leaders in developing new surgical techniques in their respective fields of specialisation, and coordinating the development of novel medical aid devices. Largely for money and fame I'm sure, but that's beside the point.

    • MessyG on 06/04/2019 - 16:07
      +1

      This is just blatantly incorrect. Yes there are private companies making squillions off drugs, yes there are research scientists doing research, but that's not mutually exclusive to doctors. 'Doctor' is a very homogenous term for a very heterogenous group of people. Some run businesses. Some are salaried. Some do clinical work (see patients), some do scientific research, many do a degree of both. Research is done both by universities and tertiary teaching hospitals as well as private companies - some universities are now monetising the outcomes of their research and creating their own biotech startups. Also, the AMA is a medical association, not a 'union branch'. They do advocate for doctors but they also advocate for public health. i.e. your health. And health is not apolitical in any sense. We have a food industry so rife with vested interests no one knows what to eat anymore, we have young tradies dying from silicosis because their employers felt they didn't need to wear masks qhen grinding caesar stone for peoples benchtops - so acting like them being political being a bad thing is just ignorant to what they actually do. They're not perfect, no institution is, but this is just this is just reads like you've had an opinion without any experience with them at all.

    • diazepam on 08/04/2019 - 01:33

      I have no idea what the hell you're talking about and I've been in close discussion with the AMA in multiple aspects.

      The AMA is quite polarising in the medical field, supporting things which they probably should have been impartial about (e.g. AMAVic supporting euthanasia).

      I'm not sure which world you live in but there's very rigidly controlled trials, and doctors are an essential part of clinical trials before medications come out. Sure maybe doctors haven't developed them (and there's many clinician researchers too)…

      They are definitely not seen as the health authority as in insider to the field, they have very small lobbying power (no doctors are really signing up to them anymore, and their drop in numbers is quite worrying them internally).

  • bossmode on 06/04/2019 - 11:25

    Is Sarcosine something your everyday person can obtain, over the counter at the chemist?

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:30

      Purchase online without a prescription.

      Probably not my brightest moment.

      • MessyG on 06/04/2019 - 16:08
        +7

        How do you know that's what was in what you purchased?

  • poohduck on 06/04/2019 - 11:33
    +1

    I had / have tinnitis too. Mostly I'm not aware of it now - I don't know if it has diminished or not. As you know, that's the nature of the beast. Mine was from riding motorbikes for years with no hearing protection - it just never occurred to me that the sound of wind was that loud - it is. I started protecting my hearing from most things from that point on. I'm conscious of adjusting volume for anything so that it is just loud enough. It has been 10 or 20 years now. I can consciously listen for tinnitis and hear it instantly, but most of the time I'm not aware of it. There's even a theory that every one has tinnitis but most aren't aware of it. However, I do understand that I may have a very mild form - I don't actually know much about it now; it was a gray area when I researched it at the time.

    • Word on 06/04/2019 - 11:35
      +1

      Can you drown out the tinnitus with TV, white noise generator or hear it outside?

      Because if so that is mild tinnitus.

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