Red Light Offence but It Looks Like I Was Already in Intersection

So I received a $524 fine for running a red light but I'm convinced I was already over the line and I can't tell from the pictures whether or not I was. Usually I'd just pay a fine but $524 isn't cheap, especially if I was already in the intersection and I'm not 100% clear on what the different Phases they mention in the top section. My car is the silver Barina and while it definitely looks close I'm not totally convinced.Any thoughts?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a190455070769d7f135ea9ad5bdf8966...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/551c6276bccd566c53fa1986d7c79038...

closed Comments

  • +55 votes

    Grabs popcorn. I thought it was going to be a slow night on the forums.

    Edit: Dang. Brand new member. Why. Why. Why do I fall for this every time.

    • +10 votes

      Hahaha… only came here to look for your inevitable comment to a new user. You’re like clockwork, TB. :D

    • +11 votes

      Edit: Dang. Brand new member. Why. Why. Why do I fall for this every time.

      You mean a long-time Ozbargainer with a new alias that's too afraid of the responses they might receive.

    •  

      Whats wrong with new members?

  • +2 votes

    I see the red arrow already up when the first picture is taken

    •  

      Yes, but where is the car?

      •  

        silver Barina

        •  

          I know. But it's not clear from the picture if the car was already on the intersection or not when the arrow turned red.

          • +4 votes

            @tranter: when the front wheel hit the line on the red it took the first picture at 0.62 after red, then when the rear wheel hit the line at 1.63 it took another picture

            • -6 votes

              @SnoozeAndLose: Umm… no, that's not what happened.

              • +13 votes

                @tranter: Oh, sorry tranter, didn’t realise you were there and witnessed it… go on…

                • +4 votes

                  @pegaxs: One can clearly see from the second photograph that the Barina's rear wheel isn't "hitting" any line in particular nor even at the same distance into the intersection as the front wheel in the first photograph. So that comment is inaccurate.

                  • +1 vote

                    @Scrooge McDuck: The first photograph shows that the Barina was already over the stop line at 0.62 s after the light turned red. It does not show that the Barina entered the intersection after the light turned red. These 2 photographs alone do not prove that the driver of the Barina committed an offence.

                    OP could successfully challenge this infringement by requesting a review, and failing that, electing to have the matter heard before a court.

                    • +7 votes

                      @Scrooge McDuck: If you can prove that the vehicle could change its speed from the shown 30km/h quickly enough to have not been in front of the line 0.62 sec before the first photo you might be in with a chance. We can see that the vehicle was not braking as there are no lights apparent (yes, assuming the lights do work). From that the vehicle was either coasting at 30 or accelerating, so it was probably doing 30 0.62 sec prior to the photo, which puts it 5.1m further back which is more than a car length which would line it up with the other cars - behind the line.

                    • +6 votes

                      @Scrooge McDuck: What is people’s fascination with “rear wheels” when it comes to red light offences? Every time there is a thread of this nature, it’s always, “yeah but the rear wheels…”

                      from the the second photograph…

                      All I can see in the 2nd photograph is the Barina half way through the intersection and the right turn signal is red. Or are you looking at the first photo twice?

                      The first photograph…

                      It shows the Barina well ahead of the other vehicles lined up. It also says that the yellow light was on for 3.94 seconds and red for 0.62 before the red light camera was triggered. The Barina was about 5 metres (or about 1.5 Barina lengths) before the trigger, which would put the car behind the line at the time the light went red.

                      It does not show…

                      It most certainly does show that the Barina entered the intersection on a red arrow. The light had been red for 0.62 seconds when the first photo was taken. At 30km/h, this puts the car some 5m+ back from the position in the first photo when the light changed to red. What you seem to want to see is a photo of the cars position at 0.00 seconds of red light. This can worked out with a little bit of maths and is therefore not required. Light was red for 0.62 seconds, Barina was in front of line after light changed to red…

                      It has nothing to do with the rear wheels of the car, the nose of the car, the driver position, etc. The pick up sensor in the road does not differentiate between front or rear wheels, it just senses a car moving across it. Since the pick up sensor is after the line, anything that crosses over the stop line after the red will trigger the camera.

                      And I would love to see OP challenge this in court. But I would not be putting any money on OP to win this one.

                    • +8 votes

                      @Scrooge McDuck: WRONG WRONG WRONG!

                      The sensors in the ground are the witnesses.

                      The entire car must be over the stop line it to be required to clear the interestection and clearly IT WASNT!

                      ….only the front wheels.

                      In which case fine has been issued correctly!

                    • +7 votes

                      @Scrooge McDuck: That is the case with every single one of these photos. The first photo will always show the car over the red line or the photo wouldn't have been taken at all…

                      The point is that this photo would not have been taken if a significant amount of metal had not passed over the induction sensor, located in the road just in front of the line, after the light had turned red.

                      There is no grounds for review here as these photos are consistent with the photos of every other red light offence.

                    •  

                      @Scrooge McDuck: "It does not show that the Barina entered the intersection after the light turned red." Yes it does.

                      To trigger a red light camera, you have to drive onto then off of the sensor, when the light is already red.

                      Therefore; "the Barina entered the intersection after the light turned red".

              •  

                @tranter: What did you witness?

              •  

                @tranter: Red light cameras dont lie. Only guilty people do to get out of trouble

              • +1 vote

                @tranter: Photos are not taken when wheels 'hit the line'

          • +2 votes

            @tranter: In the first picture the car was judged to be doing 30KM/h, whilst the light was Red.

    • +6 votes

      The car had clearly moved ~ 4 times the distance from the white line @ 1.63 seconds than it had @ 0.63 seconds at a steady speed [30 KPH]. From that, it would have been about the same distance behind the red line at the time the light turned red as it was when the first photo was taken.
      People who learnt to, and have only driven in Adelaide really need to take a few spare sets of underwear if they are going to treat amber as " alternate green" in other states or countries…

      •  

        I believe nsw too treats amber as "I can still make it" and instead of slowing down they accelerates.

        But recently I saw something different in QLD Cbd…. Flashing amber. Guess that might translate to NSW looney drivers "I still have a chance" lol

  • +23 votes

    Member since 19 minutes ago.

  • +11 votes

    you should hire the most expensive lawyer you can find and fight it.

  • +12 votes

    DisabledUser9897 in 3…2…1 !

  •  

    The photos show that you crossed AFTER it became red…. btw, in Australia even crossing when it's YELLOW lights, results in 2 demerits and $200 fine https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/driving-offences-s...

    • +5 votes

      The photos show that you crossed AFTER it became red….

      No they don't.

      btw, in Australia even crossing when it's YELLOW lights, results in 2 demerits and $200 fine

      No it doesn't. Drivers must stop at a yellow light if it's safe to do so. If they had to stop regardless, the yellow light would be pointless!

      • +1 vote

        The other vehicles in the image managed to stop. OP had at least 3 seconds to stop. Why didn't OP?

      • +6 votes

        Sorry. OPs car was NOT entirely PAST the stop line.
        It was OVER the stop line.
        Hence it crossed the stop line (completely) AFTER light turned red.
        OP should have remained stationary

        There is no argument about this.
        That is what the sensors have picked up
        The stop light sensors dont lie.
        Only guilty people trying to get out of a fine try to lie

        •  

          Is it the whole vehicle or just the front has to be past the line. If the whole, where does it say that?

      •  

        Would speeding on a yellow light trigger the flash too?

  • +15 votes

    *insert regular comment and cite legislation about yellow means stop, not go faster to beat the red. Leave disappointed that it’s a new user troll thread and we will never hear from OP ever again…*

  • +15 votes

    You either ran a red light, ran a yellow light, or entered the lights without it being clear for you to proceed and exit. Take your pick.

  • +14 votes

    This thread delivers better than Couriers Please 😂

  • +4 votes

    You're GONE !!!!

    Que Sera, Sera…

  • +4 votes

    In b4 disableuser

  • +4 votes

    definitely go to court. you have a very solid case

  •  

    If that's the camera on the corner of Bridge Rd it's know to be inaccurate, you should fight it.

    • -1 vote

      Proof??
      And also proof OP is not guilty???

      Clearly OP admitts he crossed interesetcion after light turned RED.
      He is just trying to find a way to get out of the fine

  • +27 votes

    I'd fine you for driving a Barina.

  •  

    It's my belief that the red light camera only activates and takes a photo if it is already red when the wheels cross over the sensor that is on/under the line markings.

    •  

      Yes! And can be either front OR back wheels.
      Makes No difference - offence has been committed

      And in fact its an offence to proceed on amber light too unless its dangerous to stop suddenly - not in OPs case

  • +8 votes

    Based on how far you travelled between the photos in 1 second, I’d say that when the light went red, 0.62 sec before the first photo that you would have been behind the line.

    The speed in the two photos is he same, 30km/h. You will travel 5.1m in 0.62s at that speed. This is longer than a barina, so you were back more than a car length, which would line you up with the other cars, behind the line.

    ** waits for maths person to correct my calcs.

    • -2 votes

      Your maths is correct but the photos and data don't show the speed and position of the vehicle in the moments before the first photo was taken.

      It's dangerous to assume the position of the vehicle based on a photo where much of the car and intersection is obscured.

      • +1 vote

        It’s not actually dangerous to assume. No harm will come if you get it wrong.

        You could go all out and use physics etc to calculate where it was. After all cars can only brake and accelerate so much. What do most cars do? Use that as a base. If you wanted to PROVE beyond doubt then yes, it probably isn’t right. But if the camera is working correctly and triggers when a vehicle crosses the line after the red, then the sinks calc adds up and it is possible.

        • +1 vote

          Spot on. You know that the speed is not going to change that much in 0.62seconds. The calcs put the car in the vacinity and as long as the camera is calibrated and maintained it is likely right. If this red light fine could be overturned because of the “physics” than any photo after the fact could be thrown out for the same reason.

        • -2 votes

          I would normally agree but in this instance too much of the car and intersection is obscured in the first photo. Therefore an accurate reference point does not exist making it difficult to make a proper determination.

          So many comments in this thread making assumptions of speed and position of car before first photo was taken.

      •  

        Totally irrelevent comment.
        What matters is where ther car was DURING the offense.
        The rest is incidental

      •  

        either he was going faster than 30km/h and so he was further behind the line than 5.1m calculated when the light turned red

        or he was going slower than 30 km/h when the light turned red. in which case why was he accelerating on an amber light?

  • +3 votes

    Siri, play Despicato - volume 100

    • +5 votes

      When I see these “red light” threads, all I hear is… Benny Hill chase theme

  • +7 votes

    The red light had been on for 0.62 seconds and you were traveling at 30km per hour. in that 0.62 seconds you traveled just over 5 metres. so you were 5 metres further back when the light turned red.

    Also someone else got in before me, calcs check out

    • +11 votes

      You forgot the 50 odd metres of yellow light that OP got as well before even getting to this point.

      • +3 votes

        also known as the speed up zone!

      • +2 votes

        bang on.. i think this is the vital part of the determination..
        there would be more images/video than is released.. and i would bet it shows a vehicle well before an intersection at the yellow light.. the old “already at intersection” doesn’t apply if you have to race through on a yellow..

    •  

      The red light had been on for 0.62 seconds and you were traveling at 30km per hour.

      I used the same logic when my wife got a similar ticket. She was in the intersection waiting for an oncoming car to get through before completing the turn.

      I quoted them the numbers, ie. how long it would have taken the other car to cross etc. etc. but they just rejected it.

      I ended up paying the fine rather than go to court because taking a day off work would have cost her more than the fine.

      I think they know most people will just pay so just reject most peoples request for a review.

  • -2 votes

    The cars beside you stopped but you continued on through the red. Secondly you must not enter an intersection unless there it is a clear uninhibited ability to exit. thirdly you should have stopped on the yellow light as it appears you would have been able to stop before the red, as the cars around you were able to stop. That is unless you accelerated on the yellow to try and get through?

    • +6 votes

      Probably a green arrow while straight was a red light.

    •  

      "Secondly you must not enter an intersection unless there it is a clear uninhibited ability to exit.":
      FIRSTLY: If everybody did this (mostly nobody does) then nobody would ever get through a busy intersection.
      SECONDLY" its impossible to police or prove

      •  

        It’s no necessary to write in capitals, this comes across as aggressive/ hostile. You can get your message across without their use. It can be interpreted as though you are shouting.

    •  

      What is wrong with trying to get through if yellow? Yellow just means it will be red 4 seconds later.

  • +1 vote

    contest it, GO TO COURT! federal court, international COURRRRTTTTT
    u ran green not red
    send this to today tonight, ACA, channel 7 and 9 news
    ITS A NATIONAL OUTRAGEEEEEEEEEEEEE
    damn nanny state

    stand up for the little guys

  • +5 votes

    Yeah, it looks like there's not evidence that you crossed the line on the red.

    The thing is though, you did. That's how the camera is triggered.

    Even if you didn't (but you absolutely did), you didn't stop on an amber and it was definitely safe to do so, which is considered to be the same as running a red, so take it to court and you'll get done over just as hard, if not harder.

    I know you did it, you know you did it, the camera knows you did it, the appeal is going to tell you you did it, the judge is going to tell you that you did it. That's because you did it.

    TL;DR: You did it.

  • +6 votes

    Tell the judge you had a fart but it was a little more than a fart and when you felt a bit wet, it caused you to take your foot off the brake.

  • +2 votes

    New users should not be allowed to use the forums for a period of time.
    Go away troll

  • -2 votes

    Red light cameras dont lie - OP is Guilty - but read on….

    Take note: The law states that you are required to STOP on an amber light and only proceed if its dangerous to stop (suddenly)
    This doesnt apply to OP as OP proceeded through amber light and red light whilst moving relatively slowly.

    However OP could try arguing they were over the stop line during the amber and red lights and hence had to clear the intersection. This arguement only applies if the vehicle is wholly and entirely past the stop line and not just the front wheels.

    Unfortunately it seems that OP was NOT wholly past the stop line during the amber and red light phase and only crossed it completely AFTER the light turned RED. Hence penalty has been issued correctly.

    OP should have known where they were in relation to the stop line at all times but according to this post they didnt.

    Driver awareness is very important in preventing road accidents and OP should take more care.

    TIP: When waiting to turn right at a traffic light intersection its always best to proceed well out into the intersection and wait until its safe to turn, even after the lights have turned red. This avoids OPs situation.
    The only exception is if there is a red right turn arrow in which case you must wait behind the stop line until it is extinguished.

  • +3 votes

    That car clearly ran the red light. Pay the fine, and take it as a lesson.