Red Light Offence but It Looks Like I Was Already in Intersection

So I received a $524 fine for running a red light but I'm convinced I was already over the line and I can't tell from the pictures whether or not I was. Usually I'd just pay a fine but $524 isn't cheap, especially if I was already in the intersection and I'm not 100% clear on what the different Phases they mention in the top section. My car is the silver Barina and while it definitely looks close I'm not totally convinced.Any thoughts?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a190455070769d7f135ea9ad5bdf8966...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/551c6276bccd566c53fa1986d7c79038...

closed Comments

  • +4 votes

    You're supposed to stop if it is safe to do so on a yellow light.

    You obviously sped up and tried to sneak through and got pinged.

    Take your medicine and stop whinging.

    Stop driving like a prawn next time.

    •  

      100%. They didn't even speed up by the looks of it though (I could be wrong there), clocked at 30km/h so they had ample time to stop during the yellow if the yellow light lasted 3.94 seconds.

  • +1 vote

    User since LOL

  • +4 votes

    "Usually I'd just pay a fine".
    So, you have Previous Convictions.
    Guilty Your Honour!

  • +7 votes

    Cmon there is no way! I see this cr*p all the time. See that blue car? Sometimes I am the guy in the blue cars position and I think to myself as the light is turning red "That was a bit close, I probably shouldn't have gone through there" and then I see ANOTHER person go through behind me on full red I am like "???????"

    I used to live in that area and Bridge Rd/McIntyre Rd intersection is one of the worst in the area (in fact that whole Bridge Rd corridor is terrible) for crashes. That's why there are red light cameras all along those Bridge Rd intersections, in an attempt to change the behaviour of idiots like you.

  • +31 votes

    I’ve added some visual guides to the pic for you.

    In the first image extending the white visually reinforces that your rear wheel was probably over.

    Then I thought hey lets drop a rear quarter pic of a Barina in and see if that help clear things up. I think it’s mainly because I cant get the perspective correct but the next 2 images suggest that maybe you were just on the line. So take this as evidence to create some reasonable doubt.

    At any rate slow down!!!

    • +7 votes

      That's some of the best MSPaint work on OzBargain so far in 2019.

      • +3 votes

        The hero we need, but not the one we deserve… Damn that's some expert level forensic analysis…

        The only thing it is missing is the projection of the car at 0 seconds, moved back the 5m to see where the car actually was at the light turning red.

        •  

          oh yeah it does say the light was red for .62 seconds doesn't it…

          looking again I've also been generous by a pixel to 2 to OP with the line extension

          • +4 votes

            @nith265: You've also used the pedestrian crossing lines, not the solid white line where car is meant to stop & sensor is located.

            OP, Pay the fine, you ran the red.

    • +4 votes

      The red light sensors dont lie
      It has nothing to do with your visual perpectives - these are useless in any court
      Its all about the sensors in the ground and they have picked up OP going past the stop line on a red light.
      Its that simple!

    •  

      Thanks. Your pics do provide a level of doubt.

      https://www.police.sa.gov.au/services-and-events/expiations/...

      How traffic offences are photographed

      • red light offences

      Photo 1 that the light has turned red at the point of crossing the stop line

      Can you do the pics with the solid white stop line extended out? That is where the sensor is. The broken lines are just for the pedestrian crossing.

      Very good case for OP to request a review.

    •  

      Nice work, but isn't the line in question the solid white line just in front of the Prado's front wheels? You have extended the pedestrian lines which are much further into the intersection. I suggest you extend the solid white line across as that makes a big difference. (just noticed comment above saying same thing sorry!)

    • +2 votes

      Good point @tranter and @shark

      Here you go, have extended the stop line also - looks like OP may have an issue if that's the mark…

      •  

        Thanks!

        In fact OP might have a stronger case because the first photo is supposed be taken while the car is crossing the stop line, as per my comment above.

        With the stop line extended into the third lane in the photo, it appears the car has cleared it easily.

        •  

          The lines do not converge across the image so there may be some error in their overlay.. the true way to overlay, allowing for lens distortion etc would be to have an image without any vehicles covering the lines overlaid on the OPs image, but we don’t have one.

          The car moved 5.1m at 30km/h. The car is 3.88m long and the space between the stop line and the ped crossing line is 1.2m. As the car is in front of the stop line in the image, it indicates the car had crossed the line when it changed to red.

          •  

            @Euphemistic:

            …an image without any vehicles covering the lines overlaid on the OPs image, but we don’t have one.

            Frustratingly if we could get one from the same red light camera with less traffic it would be a perfect overlay

            The lines do not converge across the image…

            Well they do but I take your point probably not enough - a lot of room for artistic licence either way

          • -1 vote

            @Euphemistic:

            The car moved 5.1m at 30km/h.

            We don't know the speed of the car before the first picture was taken.

            That's not really the point anyway. As I linked above on the SA Police website, for red light offences the first image is taken when the car is over the stop line. It appears that didn't occur in this case so I think there is enough doubt to request a review.

            But only OP can make that decision if they feel that something is not quite right.

            •  

              @tranter: The first image was taken when the car was over the stop line. The camera won’t take an image every time the lights change, but only when it is triggered and then there is obviously around 0.6s delay before the software triggers the camera to record.

              As for the speed before the first image, based on it being the same speed in he two images it appears to neither be acceleration or braking. Of course it is possible, but a barina is not a high performance car and will not have a significant change in speed in 0.62s unless it hits a wall. Additionally the car in front has a similar distance between in both images indicating that both cars are travelling a similar consistent speed.

              •  

                @Euphemistic: OP is convinced they were already in the intersection and there is also some doubt that the vehicle was at the point of crossing the stop line when the first photo was taken. That's when the first photo must be taken. Source:
                https://www.police.sa.gov.au/services-and-events/expiations/...

                Earlier I said 'over the stop line. By that I meant 'crossing the stop line'.

                If OP believes there is doubt then there is no harm in requesting a review. Cameras do make mistakes as has been pointed out in other comments.

                • +2 votes

                  @tranter: Have more of a read. It also says the camera activates half a second after the light changes. What we really need to see is what it says in the legislation, not a ‘guide’ or leaflet, those are often inaccurate.

                  Anyway, despite all that I have no doubt, based on the images and the speed the OP is guilty. You obviously think there is a chance it may be cancelled and you are entitled to your opinion.

      •  

        Can you add a guy in walking his dog

    •  

      wow, how did u do that???

  • +1 vote

    Thers is TWO SURE WAYS out of this for OP…..

    1) OP must demonstrate they were not in control of the vehicle at the time…

    Either
    a) the car jumped into 1st gear and took off by itself OR thottle got stuck (good luck with that one)
    OR
    b) somebody else was driving the car at the time (good luck with getting someone to admit to that one)

    2) OP must prove they were driving an emergency services vehicle such as a Barina Ambulance, Police car or fire engine.

    But OP can also claim they were acting DURING in emergency situation such as rushing pregnant wife in labor or person stopped breathing or heart attack victom to hospital

  •  

    If you use a ruler to extend the white lines to where OP's car is, it does appear to go very close to, if not under the car.

    I don't like OP's chances on this one should out go to court.

  • +7 votes

    First photo @ 0.62 seconds after red @ 30km/hr (8.3m/sec)
    Length of that vintage Barina = 3880mm (redbook)
    Therefore at red light 0 sec eg 0.62 sec ago Barina would be 5.2m further back from the intersection.
    close call but if you move the Barina back 5.2m it may not have entered the intersection when the red light came on.
    However, given the amber was on for 3.4 seconds and that we are debating over a few mm's when the red light came on the OP made a dangerous decision putting others at risk. I suggest paying the fine and driving more safely next time. Treat it as a life lesson.

  • +1 vote

    You're eligible for the Barina tax, hence the hefty fine.

  • +3 votes

    yellow means prepare to stop, how hard is it to understand? 3.94s amber is a long time. Pay up!

    • -3 votes

      Where does it say that? It means prepare to stop if you aren’t going to make it passed the line before it turns red

      •  

        I will be waiting for your red light fine. Every traffic light has different amber duration.

        According to RMS handbook, amber actually means STOP. "You can enter the intersection if you are so close that sudden braking might cause a crash."

        So you can enter the intersection not because you "think" you can make it, but you enter because sudden braking might cause a crash.

        •  

          Thank you.

          If that was the case and it meant stop, Why wouldn’t they just have the light go from green to red and have those 4 seconds of yellow as 4 extra seconds of red. And then say that you can’t be fined if you went through the red within the first 4 seconds as captured by those accurate cameras ?

          •  

            @grasstown: It is not if, that is the case. The law literally says amber=stop. Amber is warning that it is going to red and tells you to stop if you can stop safely and not for you to try and make it pass the intersection before it turns red. Typically amber goes for 4s and more depending on the speed limit on the road. That provides more than enough "leeway" for cases where it is deemed too dangerous to stop.

            If it goes straight to red from green, then how would people know how many seconds since it turned red? They have to show timer at every traffic light, not to mention everywhere in the world the light has 3 colours.

            •  

              @rave75: Why would people need to know when it turns red if yellow means stop anyway. You will never be fined for proceeding through a red light if it was unsafe to stop at the red light.

              Does yellow mean the same thing everywhere in the world?

              • +1 vote

                @grasstown: Wow, not sure if you are trolling or plain stupid.

                  •  

                    @grasstown: Because you need amber light as a warning that it is going to red soon and you need to stop. Just think it as a first and only warning to stop before red, otherwise you will get fine. 4s amber duration is a leeway in cases where it is not safe to stop. At 60km/hr speed limit road, 4s translates to 67m distance to stop which is plenty

  •  

    Why not just tab the break when you saw the yellow light?
    Just pay the fine. Be safe next time.

  • +2 votes

    Typical new user auto thread trying to weasel out of a fine. One single post, no replies, disabled in 3…2…..1

  •  

    Is this the same junction? Would suggest something wrong with the camera. Guy was stopped but clocked at 71

    https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/boeble/clocked_g...

    • +1 vote

      Is that one of those "spot the difference between the two photos"?

      Ive found about 400 & counting.

    •  

      OP picture was taken at the intersection of Macintyre road and Bridge Rd Gulfview Heights SA 5096. The image that you linked was taken at Monkland St and Wickham St Gympie, QLD 4570.
      So that must be one fancy camera if it takes pictures in different states. :)

  •  

    You crossed on red, I think.

  •  

    This look awfully close from the first picture.

  •  

    first link shows u havent crossed the lines when it’s red.
    sorry OP

  •  

    Amber light was on for 3 secs yet OP tried to beat it. Sorry you gotta pay up!

  •  

    Looks like you ran the red from the pics.

  •  

    don't bother justifying you were over 10cm over the line where you had 3-4 seconds to stop. Facepalm

  •  

    New member 2 days old coming to ask advice from the population of Australia if the Authorities made a mistake. Lol

    Love the millennials

  •  

    Am I missing somehing? The light is already red as you're going through the last white line and into the intersection (on the first photo)??

  • +2 votes

    I remember getting the photos of my first red light fine.

    First thing I said to myself: "yup, I remember this, I'm an idiot, thought I could beat the yellow light".

    Now I drive safe lol

  •  

    Hate to say this to you, but in 99% of cases machine don't make mistakes.

  • +6 votes

    He clearly ran over the light. Here is the evidence with MS Paint edit. At 0.62s, his rear wheel is touching or very close to the stop line, it doesn't look like to be over 5m.

    https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/99211/69187/redlight.j...

  • +2 votes

    You should listen to duke dumont

  •  

    Just cop the fine mate. Even if you contest, they'd say you're supposed to stop on amber, let alone red.
    It's hilarious that I received the same fine in the post yesterday. Just can't stop laughing.

  • +1 vote

    Should take the red light camera to court. You'll be out of the court room in 0.53sec.