FREE 20-Minute Online Suicide Prevention Training Course @ Zero Suicide Alliance

doweyy on 21/06/2019 - 19:00

Moved to Forum: Original Link

Greetings everyone, Suicide is an ongoing issue we need to be aware of, R U OK is a great initiative, but courses like this can also help in its prevention. This 20 minute course could save a life, it could help someone in need that, on face value, doesn't seem like they need help.

This course discusses a range of different statistics and information surrounding Suicide, and the tools which can be used to assist in its prevention. It was created for the UK market, however the information is relevant worldwide.

I highly recommend people take this course. As discussed, we need to encourage people to talk about their feelings, and I've definitely learnt quite a bit just in 20 minutes to allow me to deal with conversations about issues that may arise in the future.

Credit: HUKD

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Comments

  • Soapdroid on 21/06/2019 - 19:04
    +1

    Thanks op

    • Luc on 21/06/2019 - 19:36
      +7

      Why would you even need to ask that? And more importantly how could it possibly be quantified?

      • lostn on 21/06/2019 - 19:44
        -1

        Efficacy.

        Same way any other success rate is measured.

        • zoob on 21/06/2019 - 20:12
          +1

          That's going to be virtually impossible considering how infrequent suicide is and all the inherent difficulties in measuring what didn't happen that would have otherwise.

          • pjetson on 22/06/2019 - 11:08

            @zoob:

            how infrequent suicide is

            It's not infrequent at all - suicides in Australia are about the same as the road toll. And there are about 65,000 unsuccessful suicide attempts a year.

            The average person is much more likely to know someone who has committed or attempted suicide than has died on the road. It's the leading cause of death for males aged 15-45.

            • zoob on 22/06/2019 - 16:22

              @pjetson: The rate is a bit over 10 per 100,000 people per year. That means there's about 150 suicides per year in South Australia (for a population of 1.5 million odd people) where I work as a psychiatrist. In terms of trying to predict who will suicide or doing any statistics to determine the effectiveness of interventions this makes it very infrequent and difficult to study.

      • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:13
        +2

        Because if someone's on the edge and they get the wrong advice it could push them over instead of preventing it. THINK.

    • rack on 21/06/2019 - 19:53
      -4

      Not many survived to tell the tale.

  • tightarse on 21/06/2019 - 19:12
    +3

    Nice post. Thank you :)

  • hal9000 on 21/06/2019 - 19:13
    +6

    useful, to talk myself out of it. thanks.

  • SpaceNinja on 21/06/2019 - 19:15
    -4

    How is online suicide different from normal suicide?

    • kahn on 21/06/2019 - 19:21

      Online suicide is when you delete all your social network accounts and cut off your internet connection. The NSA and the Five Eyes strongly discourage you from attempting this.

      • lostn on 21/06/2019 - 19:23

        They got their hooks into you already. Doesn't matter if you delete your accounts.

  • CharityCase on 21/06/2019 - 19:40

    Patiently waiting for JV's comment….

    • lostn on 21/06/2019 - 19:43
      +1

      What's the normal price?

      • RSmith on 21/06/2019 - 19:45

        Bold a few words

  • daewoo on 21/06/2019 - 19:52
    +4

    Great post, however this belongs in the forums. It is not a bargain.

  • outlander on 21/06/2019 - 19:56
    +2

    I'm interested in whats contained in this course, but not enough to take it myself.

    Can someone whose actually taken it give me the gist?

    • hal9000 on 21/06/2019 - 20:21
      +2

      scenarios and and steps to identify and assist someone who has suicidal thoughts. similar to mental health first aid course.

  • locknuts on 21/06/2019 - 20:01
    +3

    Could be useful to help members of the OzBargain community who have overpaid for things.

  • first in line on 21/06/2019 - 20:01

    This post reminds me of the free meals at the mosque post

  • Sage on 21/06/2019 - 20:23
    +2

    I'd rather see this than save 80 cents on McDonalds.

  • Diji1 on 21/06/2019 - 20:23

    Unfortunately Australian has legislation that encourages suicides to occur.

    The legislation in question forces health care workers to contact psychiatric services so that the person that has expressed suicidal ideation can be involuntarily detained as though they were crazy. Therefore if you genuinely want suicide as an option you can no longer talk to health care workers.

    It's about as moronic as RU OK day.

    • zoob on 21/06/2019 - 20:28

      What legislation would that be?

      All sorts of people contact mental health services when they're worried about someone. I fail to see how trying to prevent suicide that is the result of mental illness is a bad thing.

    • Glorion on 21/06/2019 - 20:35
      +2

      This is false.

      Source: I'm a psychologist…

      • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:43

        So this is not correct?

        https://au.reachout.com/articles/confidentiality

        "For example, if you tell a mental health professional that you want to hurt or kill yourself, then they’re bound by law to ‘break’ their confidentiality agreement with you, for your own protection."

        • zoob on 21/06/2019 - 20:54
          +4

          There is a bit of nuance to this. There'd have to be a risk of serious imminent harm. So if someone says they have the means and they're planning on killing themselves tonight, confidentiality will be seen as much less important. On the other hand, if they have suicidal thoughts but don't have a plan or intent to act in the foreseeable future, it would be much harder to justify breaching confidentiality.

          • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:56

            @zoob: In other words the response above "this is false" is not quite right. There are some circumstances in which it is clearly true. And others where it's a very grey area.

            • zoob on 21/06/2019 - 21:37

              @syousef: There's still plenty of falsehood in implying suicidal people necessarily end up detained. More often than not people are treated on a voluntary basis. I'm not sure what diji1 means by "genuinely wanting suicide as an option" but that seems to be muddying the waters between mental illness where people may have have impaired decision making capacity and other situations which are not equivalent.

            • Glorion on 21/06/2019 - 21:38
              +1

              @syousef: "The legislation in question forces health care workers to contact psychiatric services so that the person that has expressed suicidal ideation can be involuntarily detained as though they were crazy."

              I have people express suicidal ideation to me every day that I work. Ideation is one part. Intent another…do they have a plan? Do they have the means? Is there imminent risk? Are they going to kill themselves in 2 years time on a particular date? (The last one sounds farfetched but comes up from time to time). I wouldn't break confidentiality for that, instead I would work towards reducing suicidality.

              To have someone scheduled under the mental health act requires imminent risk and a satisfactory level of evidence. Simply saying "I'm thinking of killing myself" is not enough.

              I detest the spread of misinformation at the best of times, but when it comes to mental health, in particular suicide, I find my tolerence even lower than usual.

              • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 21:51

                @Glorion: If you detest misinformation, I'd like to respectfully ask that you are clear when you respond. "This is false." was an unclear response. What you've done to clarify just above this response is much, much better.

                Unfortunately there are going to be people who aren't informed and that are afraid of being detained or losing their job. And in some circumstances there are going to be people for whom those concerns are well founded.

          • fossilfuel on 21/06/2019 - 22:36

            @zoob: I agree that this would mainly apply to adults.

            For children and adolescents, confidentiality should be breached in both situations. Parental awareness, parental and school monitoring and linking to an outpatient mental health service is essential in preventing them from becoming moderate to high risk.

            • Glorion on 21/06/2019 - 22:51
              +1

              @fossilfuel: Yeah, under 16 and their parents sign their consent (unless assessed as a mature minor). Bloody challenging though, some kids are adamant that telling their parents will increase their likelihood to go through with it. Best if you can get their consent to tell their parents. Sometimes even by just giving them the illusion of consent is better than not: "I have a duty of care and legal requirement to inform mum/dad about this, I know you don't want me to tell them but it's something I have to do. But what I can do is give you the choice of how we do it, would you prefer for me to do it?…okay, would you like to be in the room or would you rather me tell them while you wait outside?"

              Another thing with kids, sometimes they'd rather not put voice to their thoughts and feelings, so asking them the following can help in this situation: would you prefer if I just asked yes or no questions so all you have to do is nod or shale your head?

              • fossilfuel on 21/06/2019 - 23:19
                +1

                @Glorion: Yeah in cases like these, I always bring it back to the spill on confidentiality i.e "I need to tell someone if you tell me that you're going to hurt yourself, someone is hurting you or you're going to hurt someone else". Much harder when working with kids with an intellectual disability, some think that mum or dad would hit them.

                I find that most kids are adamant about not wanting their parents to know rather than it increasing the likelihood they will go through with it, mainly because suicidal ideation is emerging in the kids I see and I'm their first point of contact in terms of mental health. I find that it all comes down to safety, that is, explaining to the kid that mum or dad needs to know to ensure that they can keep the kid safe.

                Thanks for the reminder, I often forget that we could give the kids a choice on how to tell the parents and which parent they prefer us to tell. Keep up the good work!

                • Glorion on 21/06/2019 - 23:47
                  +1

                  @fossilfuel: You too! I meant it as a general comment for everyone exploring these issues with kids, I didn't mean it to come off as lecturing :) working with ID is also bloody difficult and compounds it further! Haven't done much therapy with ID but have worked for years as a disability worker!

                  • fossilfuel on 22/06/2019 - 20:06

                    @Glorion: Definitely did not come off as lecturing! I'm very new to the mental health field and it's never a dull moment.

    • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:38

      Australia has fallen generally down a rabbit hole in the last couple of decades. It's one of strict legilsative compliance and butt covering overriding the intent of any legislation or procedure. It isn't limited to health. Education, corporate workplaces, government - it's all affected.

      R U OK day is just a symptom. If the message were to regularly check on your friends, it'd be fine. But we have to have a special day, crappy protected merchandise and bad advice accompanying that. Then everyone forgets about it till next year when they similarly go around asking Rwaark! like headless chickens unprepared for an honest answer. Suicides don't just happen once a year.

  • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:34

    Ok so I had a skim of this, to get an idea what it's about. (Don't worry I'm not suicidal, and don't need a chat.) It's got UK NHS involvement so not run by crackpots or opportunistic companies from what I can tell. My guess is that this course has all the very best intentions behind it by most of the people involved.

    However, it's dangerous getting people who aren't trained in psychology responding in this way. Giving a firm scenario and assuring the student that a potentially unstable and suicidal person is going to act in a precise fashion (open up, not be impressionable when the word suicide is used etc.) is unrealistic and dangerous. Each of the scenarios can go horribly wrong.

    Some examples based on my thoughts on the "John and Sam" talk:
    - Yes, you can get a person more fixated on suicide by bringing it up and trying to talk it out. Your priority should be to try to get them professional help. The reason people are told talking about suicide won't cause it is in most cases the risk of not talking about it is greater. But presenting it as zero risk is irresponsible.
    - The person might take the act of opening up and talking about feelings and infer romantic interest - it might be a case of "what do I have to lose?" - the resulting rejection which would normally be handled well might be the last straw.
    - For some the suggestion that they need to get the employer's HR staff involved can also be the last straw. (In general it would be preferable to direct them to services that aren't run by an employer)
    - Some people will resist getting help no matter what. The responses are going to run the gamut - from "yes, I should get help, I have nothing to lose" to "that's only going to make life worse, and I'm embarrassed, and scared of the consequences of getting help" to outright anger. Those that agree to get help might agree right away, or might require multiple conversations. Some will follow through and others won't be intending to, while others won't get round to it.
    - Relationship breakups are especially tricky because a lot of people define themselves by their relationship, particularly if it's a long relationship and they've gotten use the other person and become co-dependant.

    I'm sure I'll be downvoted. I really don't care. This stuff needs to be said. People need to stop and think critically any time they're going to be doing something life and death. Patting yourself on the back and covering your own butt shouldn't be what it's about. This stuff is tricky and if you think you'd be good at handling the situation but don't have any actual practical experience (and no more than this 20 minutes of training) beware Dunning-Kruger.

    I have no idea why this belongs as a bargain. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this board at all.

    • ozbjunkie on 21/06/2019 - 20:48

      While I don't know what is in this source, various forms of training have suggested to me that the most important non-acute community intervention is to speak in plain terms with someone you thing is suicidal. "Have you thought about hurting yourself?" Or "have you been self harming" "do you feel that the feelings and behaviours are getting worse" "have you make any plans" "do you intend to kill yourself".

      Nobody who is not already thinking of killing themselves is going to start seriously considering it just because someone else brought up the topic of conversation. The main reason we don't ask our friends these questions is the fear that we will make something worse, but these people will usually feel isolated and uncared for - having a no BS conversation can help in that situation.

      • syousef on 21/06/2019 - 20:49

        Nobody who is not already thinking of killing themselves is going to start seriously considering it just because someone else brought up the topic of conversation.

        Explain this:

        https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/30/health/13-reasons-why-sui…

        I don't know why you think you can speak on behalf of all suicidal human beings. I certainly can't. It's this exact kind of arrogance I'm talking about.

        You don't need to make a person who wasn't already suicidal harm themselves in order to do harm. Unintentionally pushing someone over the edge is as bad. The trouble is ignoring signs of possible suicide ideation is a bigger risk. You should be getting them qualified help that they feel safe getting as quickly as possible.

        • Glorion on 21/06/2019 - 21:49
          +2

          You do raise some good questions. Ozbjunkie also provides the current understanding from an empirical perspective. The problem with suicide research though, is it's bloody hard to research. The best that we currently have is "coming out with it isn't going to put it in their heads" but you raise the point of contagion. This isn't limited to 13 reasons why though…there has been research that has tracked spikes in suicide completion rates throughout the USA. Suicide completion by teens within smaller communities appears to be a risk factor.

          I do think that the factors related to suicide contagion are different to those related to simply asking it though…this is gut and not from the literature. I believe contagion may be more about romanticising someone after theyre gone (eg at funerals, memorials etc), as opposed to simply "putting it in their head." I agree with your message though, and think that critical thinking should be used..

        • ozbjunkie on 21/06/2019 - 23:48

          That show is not "bringing up suicide as a conversation between two friends, family members, or coworkers" - it is somewhat trivialising suicide and its effect on family and friends, and portraying suicide as a potentially effective tool of revenge to use against an "uncaring and unjust" society.

          Media representations of suicide are known to increase suicide rates, and in Australia the psychological association has successfully lobbied news providers to not mention when someone commits suicide, and certainly not mention the method used to complete suicide.

          Aside from being straw man, your argument is flawed as it assumed that just being two things occur close in time, that they are causally related, the term is "Post hoc ergo propter hoc".

          From your own article "contagion can be "fostered by stories that sensationalize or promote simplistic explanations of suicidal behavior, glorify or romanticize the decedent, present suicide as a means of accomplishing a goal, or offer potential prescriptions of how-to die by suicide". All this is very different what from I was suggesting, a frank, honest, and compassionate conversation between two loving individuals, where one is struggling to deal with their issues.

          • syousef on 22/06/2019 - 11:45

            @ozbjunkie: I am going to state this one more time as clearly as I can.

            It is patently false that talking about suicide can't make it more likely. If you do it in the wrong way you confirm to the person that no body cares or that no one can help. What's more, if someone does inadvertently trigger or perceives themselves to have triggered someone to go through with the suicide, there are mental health implications for that person too. Misrepresenting that, and showing scenarios always working out is dangerous and irresponsible.

            The co-worker could have become defensive or misconstrued the attempt to help, might be scared off by the thought of talking to someone at work and shut down even more, or might hasten plans. The girl in the cab could have simply exited the cab and died, or might have taken the pills long enough ago that nothing could be done to save her. The son might have killed himself anyway. If you aren't trained to help the best thing you can do is try to involve someone that is in the least threatening and confrontational way possible. You could try asking the person who you should get involved instead of telling them they should talk to HR for example. YOU might not be the best person to talk to about it at all. The story about the father getting an already established counsellor involved is probably the best of the 3.

            The reason you should get involved and talk to them about it at all is that not getting involved is more likely to lead to a bad outcome. But life can get messy and even when you try to help you're not always going to prevent a suicide. If you aren't careful and are given misinformation that you can't trigger or hasten one, you're more likely to do so.

            • ozbjunkie on 22/06/2019 - 14:05

              @syousef: Right, so we agree that talking about it is better than not talking about it. We also agree that professionals may be more able to help than non-professionals.

              I guess I would have had less issue with your original claim that it was dangerous to talk to someone about suicide if you were to also have stated that it is more dangerous not to talk to them.

              • syousef on 22/06/2019 - 16:57

                @ozbjunkie:

                I guess I would have had less issue with your original claim that it was dangerous to talk to someone about suicide if you were to also have stated that it is more dangerous not to talk to them.

                From my opening response above:
                " The reason people are told talking about suicide won't cause it is in most cases the risk of not talking about it is greater."

                • ozbjunkie on 22/06/2019 - 18:41

                  @syousef:

                  1. This idea is at odds with your claim in paragraph 2.

                  2. You don't endorse this point. You say it's "what some people will tell you", and then seem to argue against it.

                  • syousef on 23/06/2019 - 14:45

                    @ozbjunkie: No. I'm arguing that you should move to getting them professional help as quickly as possible instead of playing pseudo-therapist. You MAY need to have a conversation to do so, but you'd want to keep it to a minimum. i.e. Don't do more than you have to in order to get them that help, lest you end up making things worse. And be careful about what help you get them.

                    And you certainly don't have to bring up suicide. "I noticed you seem like you're struggling a bit. I don't want to pry but I hope everything is okay." is a good way to start. "I noticed you're withdrawn. Have you been thinking of hurting yourself?" is ****ing awful.

                    • ozbjunkie on 23/06/2019 - 21:46

                      @syousef: Multiple forms of received knowledge through reputable sources and courses suggest movement towards a direct question of suicidal intent is better than tip towing around the issue and reinforcing stigma, and confirming the other individual's idea that their problem isn't able to be discussed and nobody is willing to talk frankly about life and the choice to continue on.

                      Sure, don't blurt out, "hi haven't seen you in ages is that because you want to kill yourself". But most people understand intent in communication so someone with a genuine concern and loving attitude can get that across even if their words seem clumsy.

                      Anyway, I understand the points you raise, and agree that professionals treatment may be better than social support, but I guess I'm less focused on and less believing of the probability for negative impacts of genuine attempts to reach out socially.

                      • syousef on 23/06/2019 - 21:57

                        @ozbjunkie: Did you look through the scenarios they presented?

                        You clearly want to help others, so I sincerely hope you never find out first hand that you're wrong.

  • 4foxache on 21/06/2019 - 22:06
    +2

    At least they have a sense of humor… Survivors Of Bereavement by Suicide - SOBS

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