Hi - How do you make a good choice? I've narrowed down to Govt schools within 10km radius.
What should I filter for, or look out for?
Anything specific I should ask/email the new schools? I trust a 'school tour' is advised.
I'm using 2 websites for basic comparisons – BetterEducation and GoodSchools.
Just reading on something called ICSEA 'ranking' too.
Google Reviews of schools generally seem shonky with half trolls and half 1-time reviewers.
Interesting could you provide a brief summary or one-liner about those?
look at the national schools reform agreement and whatever bilateral agreement your state has signed with the commonwealth for federal funding.
Basically Victoria was the last state to sign up to gonski 2.0. The Cth is the minority funder of government schools and its worth looking at which schools draw the most recurrent funding. https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victoria-to-pump…
The most important determinants of a child’s success is their home and quality teaching. Quality teaching is subjective, but generally speaking if you go to a school where kids are fed every day and parents place an emphasis on learning, that’s one half of the battle won.
The most important determinants of a child’s success
is first and foremost their motivation. Then come the other factors.
I see this in my twins. My daughter is objectively the more intelligent one: she grasps complex knowledge easily and has winged her way through many a test with top scores. My son, on the other hand , has an insatiable thirst for learning and put in the hard work. He wakes up at 5 every morning, reading and researching the lessons for the day while his sister begrudgingly gets up 3 hours later.
@[Deactivated]: Maybe I should’ve clarified and said the two most important factors outside of a child’s control would be their home and quality teaching. Motivation is something the kid can somewhat control. Try sending your daughter to a school where her fellow students aren’t fed and the teachers act more like cops than educators, her motivation would still probably sustain her but it would take a hit. I’ve seen dropkicks with bugger all home life do fantastically at school because a teacher or two gave a shit about them and fed them at times. I’ve also seen average students from average homes suffer greatly from poor quality teaching.
Beware of public schools in rich areas, they often catch the have nots in the area and thus suffer similar problems as the worst schools.
I've heard good things about the school of hard knockers.
Could we be serious :/
Definitely maybe.
I prefer knockers to be soft and jiggly
:(
:(
Could we be serious :/
Maybe its time for you to change your username to
SAD and Serious
Y SO SERIOUSUH ?
A+ trolling. -7 megs at time of writing.
Home schooled kids are usually weird.
There, I said it.
Go and tell them Santa is a myth as well, just to crush any dreams….
Huh?
Do you have a choice with government schools. I thought it all depends on your catchment area. Well we don't have a choice anyway.
Yes zoned students are 'guaranteed' a spot.
Out-of-zone (which are the ones I'm eyeballing) students are at the discretion of the College if having the capacity etc. (in my case)
What should I filter for, or look out for?
Not sure if it's the same in VIC, in NSW students will most likely attend the government school that they are in area for. i.e The school they can attend is the one closest to their permanent address. NSW has toughened their out of area intake recently so it will be extremely hard in the future to apply and gain acceptance in an out of area school.
Seems like it's the same in VIC, see: Going to a non-local school
Anything specific I should ask/email the new schools? I trust a 'school tour' is advised.
Do you research by reading the school website and attending a school tour. A school tour can give you a good idea about the school culture, facilities, staff etc. Ask the school about their extra-curricular programs e.g if they have band, choir, duke of ed, leadership programs, peer support etc. Ask them about their wellbeing and learning support options i.e how the school supports a student if they're having a hard time with their studies or adapting to high school. Read their school newsletter and see what they're doing with their students in (academic and extra-curricular) and out of school (with local organisations).
Just reading on something called ICSEA 'ranking' too.
In a nutshell, that's a measure of student educational advantage which factors in parents occupation, parent education, geographic location and % of indigenous students across all students who currently attend school. Students are more likely to learn better if their parents are in good occupations, have higher education and are in urban geographic locations compared to rural or remote. Importantly, ICSEA is NOT a measure of socio-economic status.
Seems like it's the same in VIC, see: Going to a non-local school(education.vic.gov.au)
From there seems still a possibility depending on the School's availability.
"You have the choice to enrol your child at a school outside of your designated neighbourhood zone. The school may accept this enrolment as long as it has enough space.
Once the school is full, it cannot accept enrolments from outside its neighbourhood zone. This is outlined in the placement policy."
Ask the school about their extra-curricular programs e.g if they have band, choir, duke of ed, leadership programs, peer support etc. Ask them about their wellbeing and learning support options i.e how the school supports a student if they're having a hard time with their studies or adapting to high school. Read their school newsletter and see what they're doing with their students in (academic and extra-curricular) and out of school (with local organisations).
Thank you!
From there seems still a possibility depending on the School's availability.
An extremely slim possibility. If the local school has room, then it will accept the student regardless of the order of preferences.
Yes tho we wanted to aim for a school outside our zone (that has a better record than local) first.
@capslock janitor: fossilfuel is absolutely correct.
Essentially, your local school has to be at capacity and the school outside your area has the space, then and only then will any serious consideration be made.
@[Deactivated]: How do they find out capacity? Call our local schools directly, or the Education dept?
We have two colleges in our Zone (current and another)
@[Deactivated]: No worries,just got a call from one of the colleges and said normally they'd contact the old school anyway for some "details" idk what that entails.
@capslock janitor: If it's your documents or someone you're legal guardian of, why not?
I would make sure it is sufficiently encrypted incase of identity theft but chances are, even if you walk the documents in yourself, the school will digitise and store that info on cloud, rendering your precautions moot.
@[Deactivated]: Is it acceptable/normal to get enrolment rolling at a handful of different schools? Then family can further decide to pick from the Approved ones and ignore the unnaproven ones.
And for example we received the OK from 3 schools and choose only 1 - does it seem rude when declining the other 2 out of zone..? After all the effort of them checking with Assistant Principal etc fir placement…
Yeah we use FOEI for socioeconomic in NSW. Linked to school funding too.
You were bullied at school weren't you?
Only a little, thankfully I was always protected by my pals:)
I'm guessing I'm talking to a Marxist? Spot you mob a mile off:)
PS cheers for the downvote on the above, lol.
Only a little, thankfully I was always protected by my pals:)
Good for you. Why the negative opinion on schools? Basically everyone goes to school.
I'm guessing I'm talking to a Marxist? Spot you mob a mile off:)
Why would you think I'm a Marxist?
PS cheers for the downvote on the above, lol.
Sigh, check your facts…
@p1 ama: Prime ministers come from school, **** also come from school. Need investment into schools & education to create a better future!
I know it is easier to say then do, need to move on if you had negative experience.
@capslock janitor: just saw mssg, stand for people who gave people negative experience in school and/or society.
@capslock janitor: i will leave it to your imagination, i did not have the word in mind, so it may not be a 4 letter word, it can stand for any words that fit above description,
@capslock janitor: i am now curious to see if you can get the word, the last letter is m. your time starts now!
What facts?
Are you ok..?
Who hurt you?
Kindly indicate on the doll where they hurt you.
First think to check with government school is if they are zoned - if you are not in the zone then it may not be an option.
Some government schools also have extended and accelerated programs, which require an entry exam - would your child be a candidate for one of those?
extended and accelerated programs, which require an entry exam
Is this like the Selective-entry places? Think they would not be suitable with the Exam.
extended and accelerated programs
Oh.. for Gifted & talented studs…
Aka SEAL-Program
I would certainly look at the nationality mix of the students.
Hmm… I think I know why-bullying the odd one out?
Is that what you meant?
I would certainly look at the nationality mix of the students
Agree.
My daughter's high school is 40% chinese, many of these are international, full fee paying students. They go home every school holidays and leave Australia at the end of their school "career". My eldest daughter's group of friends were all international students and they simply don't keep in touch or socialise. They also practice that lovely form of reverse racism where they speak their native language when the don't want you to know what they are talking about. I do not understand the "I've come to Australia to learn english and immerse myself in Western culture but I'll speak cantonese and hang out with all the other chinese international students".
Another 30% are of Muslim background and the boys need an attitude adjustment in their views and actions towards women.
Appreciate the input.
reverse racism
What's the difference between reverse racism and racism?
Nothing whatsoever.
My eldest daughter's group of friends were all international students and they simply don't keep in touch or socialise.
some may be shy to speak english.
Depends on your idea of good education.
I went to a school where the bell curve is skewed to the 95th percentile.
We would have several 99.95 (max for Vic) every year. Anything below 99 and absolutely nothing to be proud of.
I still keep in touch with a few and majority are working for someone else.
OTOH, I have friends I made later in life who had well rounded educations. They didn't score well (around the 95th percentile) but have surpassed many of the "high achieving" high school students.
If you want high scores, pick a Jewish school or one with many migrant Asians from HK and Singapore.
If you want well rounded, pick a private school with a strong and involved alumni.
did you go to melbourne high
Won't confirm nor deny. :)
Must be MacRob ;)
If you want high scores, pick a Jewish school or one with many migrant Asians from HK and Singapore.
I would say that in this case, it's not really the school, but rather the students/parents/culture which leads to the high scores. So your statement really should be "if you want to be around people with high scores, pick…"
That's true but it also effects the other students in the school.
Children are sheep. They want someone to follow. If the majority are competitive, the child tends to be competitive (unless they're really outclassed then they may become reclusive).
Being competitive in a high achieving environment = better results.
The problem I have observed and theorised out of that environment is competition requires goal posts and awards. The standardized examination system is that goal post and award.
In the real world, no one is there to tell you what to do. Doubly so if you want to pioneer. (Math wasn't my strong suit.)
I don't doubt what you're saying at all, but my experience is that the school matters less than what people tend to think. From my own (admittedly anecdotal) experience of going from one of the worst schools in my state to one of the best schools (in terms of academic performance), I found that was a huge difference in the students, but very little difference in what I was doing and my attitude towards education.
Yes, competition is good, but it's the age-old question of whether you would rather be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. When I was at the worse school, I actually really enjoyed being the best student there, knowing more than most of my teachers (who all probably scraped by high school and barely made it through a teaching degree), and just being the top dog. I felt like I represented my school and wanted to do well. When I moved to the better school, I was just one of a large number of high performing students who all got 99+ and I never really cared much for it all anymore.
In the real world, no one is there to tell you what to do. Doubly so if you want to pioneer. (Math wasn't my strong suit.)
I think it comes back to being able to define what success is. School is easy because everyone plays by the same rules and everyone gets a number at the end of it (sort of like playing a video game). Life is different because there's no "magic number" that everyone's gunning for and people don't play by the same rules. So in this sense, I agree with you that a school that gives their students a well rounded education will probably produce happier people.
Children are sheep. They want someone to follow.
I agree 100% with this and have seen it work many times… but for some kids it simply doesn’t and its worth keeping that strongly in mind.
If parents dont pick up early enough that the child isn't going to kick it onto gear academically regardless of school or peer pressure the results can be disastrous for everyone.
I went to a public high school and we had a regular stream of kids arrive in year 11 and 12 after they had been politely managed out by nearby private schools. Years later with my own kids I think how many years of pain (emotionally and financially) the parents and kids must have endured trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Wow, diminishing returns after 95%. Who knew? Lol I know a genius that got nowhere in life but my buddy who is a slightly stupid prodigy is now killing it.
They didn't score well (around the 95th percentile)
LOL
While 95th percentile is always a very good achievement it doesnt mean that they scored 95% on their tests
It means that they performed better than 95 percent of other students - you could score 80% in a test and end up in the 95th percentile depending on other results
edit: added a bit at the end
Most understand how percentiles work (… I hope). However I can't help but laugh at the statement "they didn't score well" as being anything less than the ~95th percentile.
Subjective I guess.
@MoshPitShaq: Sorry I probably meant to reply to the comment above. Yeah a massive humble brag comment by any measure!
I focused on Yr 12 results then top govt schools in State .
Moved to location have enjoyed because of this well above average capital growth with house as Chinese/Other Smart Cookies don't want to fork out ridiculous private school fees when you get similar results with this tactic .
I'm not Chinese but that the culture of what they are seeking and don't mind paying the big bucks to get in these zones :)
My first job out of school was working for a GIS school with year 7 fees now at 29,890
The Catholic school that I went to is a fraction of this.
The significant difference wasn't in the education rather than the networking of the peers that the student will go to. Yes there were drop kicks and standouts in both.
Why don't you instead have an orientation at schools of interest and get a feel.
Where is the child at and do they have any inclinations for extra curricular activities like music and sport etc.
I think it depends by what you define by "a good choice". Your current information source (BetterEducation and GoodSchools) would probably be a good indicator if your decision is based only on ATAR. I dont know enough about ICSEA.
However, as others have pointed out, high ATAR is not a guarantee. I view it as a mean to an end (higher ATAR = more choices for University… assuming that's what the young one want to do).
If I were in your shoes, I would continue what you are doing, do the tours and try to observe the kids around school start/end time. You can probably tell a little bit about the school by observing the kids behaving around their mates in a school environment. However, you need to loiter around the school to do that.
My personal opinion is that a child's secondary education is made successful by the following: (these are of equal importance)
a. Teacher quality.. Teacher who can teach and nurture are hard to find and the really good ones are probably more attracted to private schools (unfortunately)
b. School facilities. Some public schools are underfunded and just can't match private school facilities.
c. Extra curricular activities. Public schools would have limited activities
d. Peers. My personal opinion is that most kids are motivated by what they see with their peers. If their peers are into drugs etc, they are more likely to do so. If they are in a highly competitive studious environment (eg melb hs, mac rob, balwyn high in melb) then they are likely to follow the crowd as well.
e. Parental support and/or pressure. Again, my personal opinion is that you need to be able to guide your kids. I know that some cultures push their kids to study and get good enter (which is probably why u see certain cultural group dominating selective hs like melb hs and mac rob).
From my list above, your choice of school impact a-d, while e is something that is personal to you. Another one of my observation is that students whose family have a relatively good income and good educational background tend to do relatively better (which is that icsea u r talking about i guess)… In melb, you can see this with mackinnon secondary and a developing trend around point cook.
You can't really plan for everything, but i am a firm believer that you need to make sure that the child is comfortable in the school.. So have a chat to them and take them along for the tour.
They need to be comfortable and will need to learn to live with a diverse environment (comments from others abt foreign/racial/religious affinity is probably a reflection of life in general… The kids just have to learn to live with this)
My personal opinion is that if the kid is comfortable with the environment he/she sees, then he/she should be able to adjust better and as a parent, you can try to guide him/her more or less (depending on the other factors i mentioned)
Good luck
Does the kid have friends that will go to any of the schools? If yes, that’d be my first choice.
Yes there is.. And we're in the zone too… But simply looking at state marks it's even lower than his current school…
Have anyone tried to enrol their kids in their investment property catchment? I do see some Asian parents renting in the area short term before moving out just to enrol their kids in public school.
Dk about NSW but around my area you would have to reside in the catchment property addy for a year. Other schools can be more selective and will ask to see proof of address each year.
I am not concern of the asking for address every year but more on reside in the catchment part. Guess it's time to pay a visit to our tenant.
Wouldn't work, at least one school I know of request all documentation to be provided once every November to stop people from signing 6 months lease agreement just to be in the catchment then go back to wherever they are.
Don't know about investment properties, wouldn't it be funny when the property owner enrol with their rates notice then the tenants enrol there with the rental agreement…and I'm sure some schools are now asking for utilities other than water rates to stop this from happening.
Is it acceptable/normal to get enrolment rolling at a handful of different schools? Then family can further decide to pick from the Approved ones and ignore the unnaproven ones.
And for example we received the OK from 3 schools and choose only 1 - does it seem rude when declining the other 2 out of zone..? After all the effort of them checking with Assistant Principal etc fir placement…
Just never ask someone who went there for their opinion. It will only he biased hyperbole.
But on other hand only actual people who went there know for real first hand. I don't see many reasons why they'd need to speak great about the school, unless they work there or are in close touch with teachers/committee
I work in the industry and will throw in some ideas
Ultimately, are you looking for well-rounded education or are you geared towards 99.99 ATAR? What about peer-to-peer influences that the child will get?
Thanks for the points.
Well-rounded would seem it, she is more on the creative side, not sure if it's because Maths/Eng is not her strong suit though. Still want her to succeed on the basic numbers and letters.
What role do you play in the industry? I had couple Q's
A) While looking at other colleges, we are somewhat pushing for the campus transfer to go ahead (it was disapproved). Not too fussed about moving, but would like to know if we have any rights for this to happen? Kid missed 1st week of T4 and going into second week without any change.
B) Is it acceptable/normal to get enrolment rolling at a handful of different schools? Then family can further decide to pick from the Approved ones and ignore the unnaproven ones.
For example- we receive the OK from 3 schools out-of-zone and choose only 1 – does it seem rude when declining the other 2? You know.. after all the effort of them checking with Assistant Principal etc for placement…
I’d be looking at the Schooling Resource Standard and Schooling Resource Package funding