No Seat Belt Fine for International Visitors

ajjkh225 on 27/01/2020 - 23:14
Last edited 27/01/2020 - 23:20

today on the 27th Jan (Double Demerit) received a fine for having 3 passengers without a seat belt on. which is $1106 and 12 demerit points.

in addition, the 3 passengers that didn't have the seatbelt on was international visitors and they also received a $280 fine each. total of $840 between the 3. so eventually I have to pay a fine of $1946 and 12 demerit points?

is this the right thing? why do the passengers have to pay the fine? I thought all the responsibility was all on the driver?

please let me know if this is right? I will appeal this infringement

Automotive

Comments

    • ankor on 29/01/2020 - 13:53
      +2

      The fines are meant to discourage bad behaviour. It's called negative reinforcement. It's not rent seeking behaviour.

      • pipe on 29/01/2020 - 13:58
        -2

        It is similar to rent seeking in that they are acting as a monopoly that can set prices how they like and people have no choice but to pay it.

        • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 14:38

          I like to live in sydney cbd closer to work to save on money and travel time. But alas my budget stretches only to an area where i have to commute at least one hour each way to work.

          Its called living within your means.

          Like if the tables are turned you wont charge a small fortune in rent either? Doubt it.

          • pipe on 29/01/2020 - 15:12

            @xoom: You do understand that the property rental market is a free market so landlords cannot set whatever price they want right?

            • Ughhh on 29/01/2020 - 17:29

              @pipe: Think you're confused with the term 'free market'.

              Are there regulations preventing me from listing my house for rent at $10000 per week?

              • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 17:51

                @Ughhh: Why stop at $10k.. Why not $100k?

                It just means your likely not to get a single interested tenant.

                • Ughhh on 29/01/2020 - 17:59

                  @xoom: Yes, its whole idea of free market and supply & demand. Quite the opposite of your statement.

                  edit: thought you were the other guy.

                  • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 18:03

                    @Ughhh: I think you will find that its pipe that stated "they are acting as a monopoly that can set prices how they like and people have no choice but to pay it."

                    Which clearly is not the case because if it was the case rents will be even higher.

                    • Ughhh on 29/01/2020 - 18:07

                      @xoom:

                      I think you will find that its pipe that stated

                      Yes, because I thought I replied to him, so I assumed the reply back was from him.

                      But Yes, I agree with you, the whole point of my reply.

        • ankor on 29/01/2020 - 22:04

          @pipe- If you want to sovereign citizen yourself out of a fine, go right ahead. That's your perogative.

  • wannagrababargain on 29/01/2020 - 10:28
    +1

    12 demerit points, does this mean you will lose your license? or 1 point away from losing license (depending on state)

  • ddhar on 29/01/2020 - 11:40
    +1

    Surely it's not that hard to tell them it's the law to buckle up in Australia?

    Having failed at that, understandably it's even harder to tell them to pay their share of fines now.

    • Milk tea on 30/01/2020 - 22:59

      I doubt he told them at all to buckle up since its his in laws and just assumed that they would do the right thing

  • Lockieasy on 29/01/2020 - 13:51
    +1

    12 demerit points… I would definitely appeal that in court. You deserve to pay the fine though because a driver is responsible for their passengers.

    If they refuse to put on their seatbelts then pull the car over and say you won't drive another metre until they buckle up. Simple.

    • Eeples on 29/01/2020 - 15:50
      +4

      Appeal on what grounds?
      The offence of driving with 3 unstrained passengers is loss of 6points.
      It was double demerits which applies to seatbelt offences (as well as certain other driving offences).
      So he loses 12 points.

      • Lockieasy on 30/01/2020 - 09:11

        It's a huge hit of points so he might be able to get them reduced if the judge is merciful. Maybe not if he has a bad driving record though.

  • Tuftsdude on 29/01/2020 - 15:36
    -3

    For someone that had just come back from overseas, from a country that I don't wear seatbelts in, I can be forgetful putting on my seatbelt in Australia. After a week or two it becomes second nature to put on the seatbelt. Nevermind someone who doesn't live here and is excited to arrive safely and see family. The fines are too harsh, daylight robbery.

    • jjjaar on 29/01/2020 - 22:42
      +8

      It genuinely concerns me that you only use a seatbelt because it is the law, and don’t use them to protect yourself in other countries, because you don’t have to.

      Please consider your loved ones and just always use it.

    • juki on 29/01/2020 - 23:58
      +1

      they arent harsh enough because we can still find people who break that rule. Can I use the rule i'm excited and from overseas for other things too?

  • HKS on 29/01/2020 - 16:19
    +1

    maybe dont be a dumb (profanity) and wear your seatbelt in the future. they surely would do it back in their own country.

  • chinawa111 on 29/01/2020 - 20:12
    +1

    Nimble it and move on.

  • Enterz on 29/01/2020 - 20:45
    -2

    Why weren't they wearing seatbelts? Imho, if they aren't wearing seatbelts they should be fined, not you. You should only get a fine about things you can control.

    • Davo1111 on 29/01/2020 - 23:04
      +3

      OP is weak and offered to pay them

    • j0hnd0e on 30/01/2020 - 11:17

      You can choose not to drive if the passengers don't wear seatbelts.

  • Emerald Owl on 30/01/2020 - 03:02
    +1

    Punishment is overly harsh but I would rather people pay sin taxes than income tax.

  • j0hnd0e on 30/01/2020 - 11:15
    +1

    You are responsible for your passengers so suck it up and walk for the next few months.

  • ankor on 30/01/2020 - 15:20

    The last option if you disagree, is to go to court to contest the fines.

    You should run all your arguments yourself in front of the judge. Don't bother with a lawyer, they charge money. Tell them you've consulted ozbargain instead and a few kind souls have agreed with your position.

    See how you go.

    • xoom on 30/01/2020 - 15:23
      +1

      Our judicial system is well aware of the wealth of knowledge the ozbargain community has acquired in no small part from all the discounted udemy courses.

      That judge will not only reimburse the OP but also reinstate the points taken off their license.

  • TailsK on 30/01/2020 - 15:52
    +5

    If you think the fine is excessive, then feel free to write a letter asking for the fine to be withdrawn or reduced. You don't need to go to court to have a fine or demerit points reduced. This will likely only work if you have a good driving record (i.e. no fines in the last 2 years).

    A few tips:

    • Be honest
    • Acknowledge your mistake in not checking that the passengers were wearing their seat belts
    • Explain that your passengers are international guests and you were not aware they were not wearing the belt. Also state that you have educated your passengers (which I am assuming you did). While it might offer an explanation, try not to position it as an excuse.
    • Refer to your past driving record (assuming it is good)

    You lose nothing is writing a letter, apart from a little bit of time.

    People make mistakes. It doesn't always mean you need to be punished for it, like so many others seem to be implying.

    • xoom on 30/01/2020 - 18:18
      -1

      It doesn't always mean you need to be punished for it

      Would you rather they learn this lesson the hard way. Get involved in crash unrestrained?

      Hundreds of dollar fine is far better lesson than waking up in ICU with broken bones and a fractured skull.

      • TailsK on 31/01/2020 - 11:42

        Are you saying you can't learn a lesson without going about it the hard way? I'm pretty sure OP will make more of an effort to ensure his passengers are wearing their belts from now on, whether he has to pay the fine in full or not.

        • xoom on 31/01/2020 - 11:50

          I dont doubt there will be people who will learn from a warning but there will be those that will go. Oh nothing happened last other than a cop telling me of. No big deal.

          • TailsK on 31/01/2020 - 12:04

            @xoom: Ultimately up to OP if he wants to take it on as a learning exercise whether or not he has to pay the fine in full, but like I said, it usually only works if you can demonstrate that you are a good driver (i.e. no prior offences for an extended period of time).

  • lltravel on 30/01/2020 - 17:57
    +3

    lol so many police bootlickers in this thread.

    • xoom on 30/01/2020 - 18:13
      +2

      Police boot lickers.. Ofcourse. Cant possibly have family members who worked in intensive care units who have seen the gory aftermath for unrestrained individuals involved in a car crash.

      • ankor on 31/01/2020 - 14:11
        +2

        I attended a wake of a guy who was speeding and not wearing a seatbelt. His kids were both under 10. That was not a great way to spend a weekend that's for sure.

    • Milk tea on 30/01/2020 - 23:01
      -1

      Because road trauma isn't a real thing and this is just revenue raising ey

      • lltravel on 31/01/2020 - 09:42

        Speed isn't the number 1 cause of a crash. You're brainwashed by the Police and the Media

        Just look around the world and you will see the lowest fatality rate is in a country with the highest speed limit

      • Milk tea on 02/02/2020 - 09:56

        Neg me for sarcasm..ok

    • Odin on 31/01/2020 - 00:46

      not just this thread, it's throughout australia. Those decades of government ads have worked their magic and brainwashed most of the country

      • xoom on 31/01/2020 - 04:34
        +1

        Looks like you know better. Lets hear it. What do you propose? People not wear seatbelts until they get involved in an accident unrestrained?

        They go unpunished and just learn the hard way why the government has been advocating to buckle up?

        The car industry shouldnt have bothered spending millions researching how to further improve seatbelts because people will just ignore the science behind it?

        Or you are just against the revenue raising as mishelle stated?

        Either way. Lets hear your better idea because i know those first responders do not want to ever see mangled body parts as a result of a car crash wherein the vehicle occupants are unrestrained.

        Not to mention the enourmous cost treating someone involved in a crash unrestrained versus someone wearing a seatbelt.

        • INVOICE on 31/01/2020 - 10:38

          The point isn't to say that you shouldn't wear a seatbelt, or that you shouldn't follow the law. The point is just how brainwashed the aus public is and how Australian's absolutely worship authority.

          For a country founded with convicts we are one of the most authority loving places I've ever been.

          Dare to question an authority figure - the mob will pile on and attack you.

          To me, that's pathetic. Independent thinking is discouraged here.

          • xoom on 31/01/2020 - 11:20
            -2

            @INVOICE:

            Independent thinking is discouraged here.

            Lets hear some of that independent thinking. Go on. Feel free to put in more than your 2 cents worth.

          • ankor on 31/01/2020 - 14:14
            +1

            @INVOICE: You can always challenge fines and convictions etc. Just because a police officer or council parking inspector writes something, doesn't mean it's accepted.

        • Milk tea on 02/02/2020 - 09:54
          +1

          People that do the wrong thing always think everything is revenue raising and not realise the consequences of road trauma. Wearing a seatbelt isn't hard at all or following speed limits. They don't understand that when there are accidents that could be avoided whether speed is a factor or distraction, the cost and amount of resources used and after effects is astronomical compared to having a law in place for prevention.

  • [Deactivated] on 30/01/2020 - 20:57

    Pleading ignorance is expensive.

  • DiLs on 30/01/2020 - 23:41

    How can someone be so silly to do this specially during double demerit season? Was it like a dare experiment?

    • xoom on 31/01/2020 - 04:09

      Its one of them. "Challenge accepted" moments.

  • sauce2k6 on 31/01/2020 - 16:18
    +2

    majority of the people are misunderstanding the post I think.

    He isn't denying breaking laws and whatnot. They are wondering why they are being fined twice for the same offense.

    Driver got fined for all their passengers not having their seat belt (1106 and 12 demerit points)

    But not just that, each individual passenger got an additional fine which was $280 each.

    OP seems to be wondering why he is getting a fine for his passengers AS WELL as his passengers getting an individual fine. He is just offering to pay their portion of the fines because he is a good host and they are his guest from overseas.

    • ajjkh225 on 31/01/2020 - 18:13

      thanks for clarifying. i got so stressed when i posted this thread lol

    • this is us on 02/02/2020 - 11:00

      There are reasons why fines are applied to the driver (for each passenger) and to the passengers. The driver is always responsible for whatever is happening in the car because someone has to be…

      This ( https://www.carinsurance.com/passenger-seat-belt-ticket.aspx ) page is from the US but explains the responsibilities a bit more. There, different states follow different laws, but that's what happens in California:

      "Subsection D states that a person shall not operate a motor vehicle on a highway unless that person and all passengers 16 years of age or over are properly restrained by a safety belt."

      "So subsection D of this CA Law applies to the driver and basically says he or she can be cited if he or she is not wearing a belt, or is not wearing it properly, or if a passenger is not wearing the belt, regardless of whether the driver is buckled up properly or not. Subsection E applies to passengers 16 or older who are not using the seat belts. We have seen it stated by law enforcement in CA that is it is possible, and quite common, for them to cite both a driver (who was wearing a seat belt) and the passenger when the passenger was not using their seat belt."

      The same principles applied to OP's scenario here in Australia, which makes sense from the legal point of view.

      Again, if he is offering to pay the fines that's a personal decision and not the point being discussed.

    • CandyMan on 02/02/2020 - 16:40

      Yeah the govt shouldn’t double dip

  • Jcruzi on 02/02/2020 - 01:24

    Ignorance to the law excuses no one.

    But this is sh*t how could you be responsible if they intentionally take off the seatbelts?

  • Make it so on 05/02/2020 - 19:32
    +1

    When I have passengers from a country where they are negligent with seat belts, I always check they buckled up before I drive off. I would not accept anyone not wearing a seatbelt in my car. As far as I know, it is normal that both the driver and passenger get fined.

    To drive around with 3 passengers without seatbelt on a double-demerit weekend is not too smart. The whole reason they introduced double demerits is because too many people died on the roads when going on long-distance trips during long weekends, particularly from not wearing seatbelts. It seems ironic that you find the punishment inappropriate, when people like you might be the reason for its introduction.

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