So 20 years ago my mom had the water heater thing element cut in half (so I'm told) to reduce the power bill. Is this a thing?? Well time to reverse it if it's a thing. But problem is it's too expensive?? somehow…
Do we get a huge water heater to replace the little halve size mini fridge one?
What is the cheapest option to get hot running water to shower a few people…
Copy pasting my reply to this comment which has shown up quite a few times now on related forum posts:
The above setup just looks wrong to me for the following reasons:
Not gonna claim that I have the golden equation but I think its much more viable and simple:
Heat Pump HWS + Solar Panels = Vastly Decreased bill (or in credit in my case)
The heat pump HWS (which came at a low cost with the STCs) is set to heat water for about 2 hours when my solar panels are generating electricity at its peak, the tank retains the heat all the way till the next day when its heated up again. Have never run out of hot water in my household of three. I get paid for my excess solar power fed into the grid. Never had to pay an electricity bill ever since I got the solar panels (10 months); even though I have a no-gas, only electric household.
Diverters work really well, it's like having a computer chip in a car to control fuel injection etc. Problem is they're only useful if a person is running solar panels for energy.
Not debating that it works well. But I think it is wasteful even with solar as you don't get any monetary returns for excess energy from solar because you continuously heat water even if you are not using it.
It's like keeping your car running idle in the parking lot while you are shopping in a mall for hours, just so that you can start driving as soon as you get back in.
A heat pump HWS works so much more efficiently and gives you the flexibility to export your excess solar and get monetary returns on that
@0FoxGiven: I don't disagree, heat pumps with solar energy and battery storage is as good as it gets.
@0FoxGiven: It's a +EV over the long run with general usage patterns.
Assuming low FiT
Your effectively paying your FiT rate to heat the water in hopes of not paying full fare later on.
Maybe not the best way, but most likely better than exporting at 6c/kWh.
@Mrgreenz: I'm using FiT rates to heat the water AND I export and earn FiT too.
I'm just saying [Solar + Heat Pump HWS] is heaps better than [Solar + Diverter + Electric HWS]
@0FoxGiven: The diverter will export also once the HWC has reached the programmed temperature.
The concept is the same, one could argue that a heat pump system has more that can go wrong, refrigerant leaks for example.
@Mrgreenz: … And how much is this diverter? I'm an electrician and solar installer and find they don't offer any great benifit over putting the hot water system on a timer and set it to come on from 8am to 4pm.
This gives the hot water system 8hrs on heating for the most sunny part of the day and allows the existing thermostat to control.
These diverter are just there to part a fool with their money for something that is smart.
@Yawhae: Not sure, you would know better than me. Look like ~$300 from a quick google.
Yea I'm sure the near same result can be achived with timimg the heating window to sunlight hours.
A diverter should provide a benefit to the system owner in operational terms, wether the the thing will pay for itself… I wouldn't know
The heat pump HWS + solar is overall a more elegant solution over a electric hot water tank + diverted. However the cost of a heat pump system is high and may result in a very long ROI.
Not sure about that. I had to pay only $300 extra for a Heat Pump HWS (after STC credits) when I told my builder to upgrade from the standard included Gas storage system for my home build. Since my system heats water only during two hours of the day, coupled with my PV system, i'm well on my way to have the system paid off.
@0FoxGiven: I have a quote recently comparing heat pump vs solar hot water. The cost difference was quite significant and considering the fact that the heat pump system does rely on my existing solar panels to work efficiently. So the cost is certainly a factor for some people.
It all depends on how much you value the excess solar power produced…
For reference, my heat pump (Thermann) cost about a $1000 more (after STC rebate) than an electric heater.
Sounds like a homebrew speller omg
Instantaneous Gas heats as you use it.
How much is the gas connection fee every quarter?
We have ducted gas heating as well but in non winter our gas bill is about $90 every 2 month's our power bill is 80-90 month all year round.
maximise the connection fee by running ducted gas heating at $1000 a quarter as well as the instantaneous water heater. Who is the winner now!
So does instantaneous electric
How have you had showers for the last 20 years??
Those were expensive showers, need cheap one now
Instantaneous means you still need to pay for gas supply charge which it itself costs a dollar a day.
If you have solar panels get heat pump hot water and only have it on during daylight hours, water will still be hot a few hours after sunset but get in there to take showers etc quickly.
There is also instantaneous hot water but not sure how well that works.
Instantaneous means you still need to pay for gas supply charge which it itself costs a dollar a day.
Instantaneous electric is an option if there is no gas connection.
Instantaneous means you still need to pay for gas supply charge which it itself costs a dollar a day.
I pay around half that for gas supply in NSW at Simply Energy. $0.5475+GST
From the link heat pump is the best.
Be careful with cheap heat pumps, they may fail early.
@AncientWisdom: That is what people say about non Fronius solar inverters. When other brands have 10 year warranty and half the price. In 10 years if you invested that money and with pace of technology you'll get a lot better unit.
@netjock: When was the last time you looked at heat pumps? Most come with only a year or two warranty on the compressor (the part that is most likely to break).
Personally I went the middle ground with a Thermann heat pump which is in reality a Stiebel Eltron. So while it doesn't have especially long warranty it comes from a good company with a good track record.
@AncientWisdom: Plenty of people have 8 year old Sony TV's that have 1 year original warranty.
Sometimes warranty has nothing to do with it.
Solar panels have 20 year performance warranties. Unfortunately it doesn't count for much if you read the details.
European car fixing costs go up after warranties are over but less with Toyota but both have comparable warranty terms.
It is easy to draw correlation but not everything is correlated.
@netjock: I'm drawing correlation after doing much research about it before buying. You can check reviews on Product Reviews yourself. Whirlpool is also full of stories of people's heat pump chucking it a few months after warranty finished.
If you want to risk an expensive purchase stop working with no recourse then go ahead.
@AncientWisdom: I think you are hung up on the link I supplied. Always a suggestion, don't get hung up on examples.
@netjock: I'm not hung up on anything, just sharing what I found when researching before buying. If anything, it seems you're hung up on something, not sure what though.
All I said was "Be careful with cheap heat pumps, they may fail early".
If you want to risk an expensive purchase stop working with no recourse then go ahead.
You're hung up because you think I'm buying it against your wishes.
@netjock: Now I'm sure you're just trolling, I couldn't care less what you get. In fact I do sincerely hope that whatever you buy lasts you a long time with no issues what so ever.
Looking through your post history. You're a funny one.
Funny
and a bit frightening
had solar in the 80s… they were expensive to maintain
Why?
The sun wasn't as hot back then. We had an extra planet to maintain
That's why we're immigrating to Mars.
I thought the hole in the Ozone layer would have helped?
We had a solar boost system in our house when we bought it. I died at 10 years old and I worked out that it would take over ten years to pay itself off with best case scenario being full use of the sub and paying full retail price for power.
Sorry to hear you died so young :)
Instantaneous gas hot water heater should be a relatively cheap option.
Devil is in the details, e.g. state/region, unit or a house, do you have gas, do you regularly run out of hot water, does it only feed the shower, etc.
Going off your current "halve size mini fridge" one I'd recommend a DUX 80L H.W.S (Hot Water Storage) unit from Bunnings, or an 80L Rheem Stella if you have Natural Gas.
DUX is trying to get a foothold in the market coming in cheap, but don't be deceived as they're a great product. Stellar has a unique internal design making them one of the most efficient gas HWS around, well worth it since they're only slightly more expensive than the competition.
Solar (combinations) is good in the NT, no so in the more southern areas - it also has a huge start-up cost. I'd recommend a person invest the money in a combination of solar panels and HWS rather than use solar HWS.
Don't touch Instantaneous hot water unless you live on a boat, a caravan, or intend on using them in combination with a HWS.
And the most important part: Install! Any plumber can install HWS units but I'd recommend getting one who specialises in hot water, especially if you decide on solar or instantaneous. It'll be a sh!t ton cheaper if you're doing a like for like swap, e.g. swapping an 80L for another 80L. Cost goes up for anything outside this.
A word of caution: If you're unsure about hot water then don't rush out and buy something thinking it'll fit, can end up a very costly mistake.
best answer. Queensland, brisbane. on some friend advice we had our element in the HWS cut in half… also it's a small tank so if we change to 24/7 heating it cost a lot she reckons.
I wouldn't recommend cutting the element for 2 reasons.
These days elements tend to be a sealed copper tube with hollow core, perforation of this tube renders it useless and is one of the three main reasons for a HWS tank failing.
Basically the HWS is a thermostatically controlled kettle with an element folding back on itself to present better surface area and quicker hotspot heating at the cold water entry point. Cutting the element in half will likely mean it works 4x as hard heating freshwater and 2x as hard maintaining a stable temp. It's been engineered with years of research to fine-tune the component composition, messing with this is not recommended.
Best way to save money is, especially if you're always on peak, to adjust the thermostat (not below 60c) and ensure you have a tempering valve.
wow such valuable advice. we had our element cutted 20 years ago from a friend's advice. That prob why we had such little water. Is reversing the element cut possible?
@ilove: Technically having half the heating element would mean you take twice the amount of time to heat up the same amount of water.
For example, it usually takes 2 hours at 5kW to heat up a 300L tank of hot water. The energy expenditure is 10kWh.
Now that you have half the heating element, you would require 4 hours at 2.5kW to heat up a 300L tank of hot water. The energy expenditure is 10kWh.
The only advantage i can see of having a smaller heating element is that you have a solar panel system (e.g 3kW inverter). That way, it would be better to have a smaller heating element working over longer period of time and hence reducing power required from the grid.
Otherwise, I can’t see how reducing heating element would help reduce cost.
@spaceflight: It can save power if it means that the system doesn't/can't fully heat up the tank each day - the OP's since commented that they've been "braving cold showers for 20 years" which could support this. However, to get lukewarm water every day, they could have just shut down the HWS partway through its 'cycle' rather than go to the effort of cutting the element.
In any case, there are possible safety issues (e.g. Legionnaires disease) if your hot water doesn't fully heat every day.
It can save power if it means that the system doesn't/can't fully heat up the tank each day
No it can't.
The system will have a thermostat and a minimum temperature and to get to that temperature requires a certain amount of power.
It might be that the element is on all day every day to maintain the minimum set temperature.
Also assuming that it is even possible to cut a heating coil and have it work correctly if you half the length of a heating coil then with half it's original resistance it will have twice it's original current therefore twice the power consumption.
@ilove: You have to replace the element, they're (for the most part) universal with a cost of about $50.
@ilove: There was a good reason, ur friend proably made a few $$ selling the element tail as scrap copper :)
@ilove: 'we had our element cutted 20 years ago from a friend's advice. That prob why we had such little water. Is reversing the element cut possible?'
yes - find the missing bit and glue it back on
in other news, my eyes are tearing up here - this is comedy gold …
'on some friend advice we had our element in the HWS cut in half'
I'm some friend - and I have a bridge to sell you
I've got heat pump hot water and solar panels on roof. Haven't paid for hot water for over 5 years. Setup cost is high though.
Haven't paid for hot water for over 5 years. Setup cost is high though.
So the heat pump has never run?
Solar panels power the heating up of the water. I havent had to pay for heating water either for a year almost
350kpa water meter inlet valve (you can get adjustable ones too, but meh), these are special order from bunnings.
Other than that, a 4-6 lpm showerhead water flow restrictor. 4 lpm inline ones are available on eBay.
350kiloPascal Gerni? It will cut thru the dirt on you.
I'm talking about a pressure regulating valve for your water meter though… totally different.
The sun is free, but has upfront cost and it's not always sunny.
Heat transfer pump on solar
Or gas
Instantaneous only heats the water you use.
Half power heater (don't think you can just physically cut in half!) will take twice as long to heat the water, in fact longer because more time for heat loss, so probably cost more money in the long run.
Hot water on demand, as in an instant system that heats water on demand, will be more efficient potentially than storage, where the water is stored in a tank, because the water isn’t being constantly heated to a certain temperature.
The other option is to reduce the temperature of the water that you’re using, but I don’t have it less than around 65 degrees (my gas storage system doesn’t have accurate temperature guidelines so aim for middle 60’s) because I don’t want bugs growing in the water.
Also by taking less time in the shower you’ll save money. Use a timer so that you know how much time you’ve spent because it’s easy to get distracted.
It also depends on the efficiency of the hot water system that you have.
So if you’ve got storage potentially reduce the water temperature, take shorter showers, and if you’re hot water system is really old consider investing in a newer system.
Pretty much this, heat pump or solar will require significant upfront investment. Instantaneous Gas is probably the cheapest option.
https://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/adventure-kings-camping-sol…
One of these will do the trick, 20L in, leave it in the sun for a few hours and you've got a good 5 minutes to shower - ample time and free heating.
But seriously, solar is the cheapest long term if you can afford it. Otherwise instant hot water is fairly cheap, that way you're only paying for gas when you're using the water, not to heat up a tank and then maintaining the temperature. We are a family of 8 and have $30 worth of gas usage per month including gas cooking and heating.
I like to put on 2 songs when I shower and aim to get in / out before both finish. If you brush teeth before getting in you have time to just enjoy the warm water for a few minutes - a true luxury.
Check out this latest new disruptive technology in water heating…
No mechanical element, provides instantaneous hot water, set temperature controlled (safety), Australian made - only pay for what you use.
A game-changer in electrical hot water heating by all accounts.
I understand the company is currently seeking additional investment to get their products mass produced on a global scale.
Wall mounted instant hot water heaters have been around for decades, can't see what's special about their product. Also all electric heaters are 100% efficient, give or take (they say 99%) … Ie. All of the electricity is turned into heat (minus any light energy or heat leakage)
Now heat pumps are special, something like 300% efficient
You mean that they have an effective “efficiency” of 300%. It is thermodynamically impossible to have an efficiency of more than 100%, as this implies that more energy is being produced than is being put in.
Not technically wrong, but you're confusing the subject for most people by nit-picking wording if you don't intend to follow this statement with an explanation of why this law of thermodynamics means we use a standard coefficient instead of an equation of efficiency between energy input and heat value output.
We use COP (coefficiency of performance) to express the energy effectiveness of Heat Pumps.
We use COP (coefficiency of performance) to express the energy effectiveness of Heat Pumps.
That's true and if we use it why didn't you say that originally?
Heat pumps are not 300% efficient, that's impossible as something can't be more than 100% efficient. Saying otherwise will only confuse people.
@spaceflight: Generally when I'm talking to a customer about heat pumps I always use an "efficiency" rating, mentioning CoP brings a glassy look to their eyes which is why I only use CoP with people in the industry. Might be technically wrong but that's communication, whether it's band-aid or efficiency, we're trying to garner understanding and not precision.
For purposes of understanding without going into the science of it, for example you get 3x as much heat out of them for the electricity you put in compared to a standard electric heater.
These are a miniature electrical continuous-flow heater designed to slip under the counter (so to speak). They're also limited to 1.5L/min so are useless for anything except a sink, unless running in tandem which (with only a 3 year warranty) would become very expensive.
Would be ok in a ring main, a dead leg, or even assisting the cold water return for a HWS.
Check out this latest new disruptive technology in water heating…
No it isn't.
Instantaneous electric hot washer heaters have been around for decades
https://www.stiebel-eltron.com.au/water-heaters
No mechanical element
What's a mechanical element?
provides instantaneous hot water
Like any other gas or electric unit
set temperature controlled (safety)
Which is required by law
Australian made
That seems to be their only difference.
A game-changer in electrical hot water heating by all accounts.
Why?
I have to agree.
The unit seems to use a form of electrolysis to heat water, the drawback been the water must flow slowly or be of insignificant volumes. Can't see much value in a home, though they could replace things like the Zip hot water units in on office tea room or demountables on work sites.
I wouldn't mind testing one out, been thinking about the units applications since I read the post.
could replace things like the Zip hot water units in on office tea room or demountables on work sites.
It would be a bad replacement as they have a maximum temperature of 60 degrees
https://www.microheat.com.au/for-architects-specifiers-consu…
@spaceflight: Above 60c is only required where a storage tank is used, or for the auto-boil units which are only used when people get tired of always filling the kettle :)
@Ebany: But if you want to use one to replace things like the Zip hot water units in on office tea room or demountables on work sites you are only going to get 60c water. To make a tea/coffee you want 100c water.
@spaceflight: You're right, everyone wants supa hot coffee these days.
I was thinking more about the under-sink mounted units which usually have a hot water faucet installed beside the cold water ontop of the sink. Be curious how much electricity is saved.
Assuming you use gas for cooking- solar boosted Instantaneous Gas Hot Water- solar heated tank with instant gas backup. So benefits of both.
In Queensland, Solar may provide all the hot water you require except for winter.
In winter, you use the Instantaneous Gas Hot Water.
You will never run out of hot water or pay for gas to heat up water you never use (standard hot water tank).
However, as you have electrical hot water, the Government may provide you incentives or rebates to replace it with a Heat Pump.
Heat Pumps didn't work out financially in my case.
Cannot be used indoors (produces carbon monoxide).
I use gas for hot water, central heating and cooking, so the service charge is ok, though the gas bill in winter is a killer. I think I should look at a solar solution too.
I normally walk near a friends house with a towel tucked away in a rucksack. As a cover story I'll say I was "just in the area" and was busting to the use the bathroom, to which they usually agree. I only had 3 local friends when I started this life hack so I befriended 4 strangers in my area, allowing me a more believable weekly interval between loo requests. I must be doing something right since I'm at 5 weeks now and have had a free warm shower at least 3 times a week. Back down to 2 friends though.
Haha
Figure out which fuse is for the heater. Have everyone shower at same time and have the water heated at specific time. Turn it off when you don't use it. I am saving so much on electricity.
Is reheating the water from cold each day compared to keeping the water hot, saving enough electricity to make up for the inconvenience?
I was thinking whether I do save from heating from cold. However, I saw the savings for two months now and I'm not going back. 😊 My elec bill had been around 70$ a month. That's with me working from home and having only electric cooking
Yes, I used to save $80 a month on power doing this. The standing losses (losses from heat dissipating into the air around the tank) are far from negligible.
I work in the field ;) your cheapest option for hot water is using an c/flow hwu. Just need 20mm copper pipe to the unit and a power point installed also. Only uses hot water when you need it and the warranties on Rheem and Rinnai are excellent.
You can get NG or LPG if you're running off bottles.
Solar heated water is on the way out and the panels always end up needing maintenance due to plumbers not installing a 300mm long threaded rod on the frost valve as per the manufacturers instructions. A half smart plumber is hard to come by.
Why waste energy constantly heating a 160l hwu when you could just heat on demand? Get a continuous flow and use a decent plumber.
"Copy and Paste"
I was renovating my whole house, and had no gas in my area.
So I was force to used Electric Hot Water Tank
So this is what I did
450l Electric Hot Water tank + 8kwh Solar Panels +[Paladin Solar Power Diverter] = Decrease Utility Bill
What you need is the missing link - Paladin Solar Controller
Speak to Mark from Paladin, i deal with him when he came to my house
He does an initial consultation, to check whether the hot water tank and solar panel up for it
He is base in Brisbane