Requirement:
3rd row comfortability
off-road
proper resell value
I have done some research:
a. Haval h9, Chinese car but the reviews seems good, but doubt its resell value.
b. Prado, however the engine seems weak, 130kw on a 2.3t SUV.
c. Patrol Ti, I can see people can got it around 70k in the beginning of the year, now the RRP is 85k, any reason being that?
Thanks for your advise.
Thanks, I heard manufacturing stopped in Japan until August or September, that explains limited stock in the market.
So it seems a good idea to preorder at a lower price for the shipment coming around end of year?
Is this a brand new car?
Out of those, Prado. But there's Pajero Sport, the Hyundais and Kias?
I prefer the tough looking ones.
Yes, brand new.
This is before someone else asks.
"Have you thought about a wagon"?
Prado, however the engine seems weak, 130kw on a 2.3t SUV.
For 4WDS/SUVs, it's the torque (expressed in Nm) that matters more than the kW. It's the ability of the engine to get a heavy load moving.
https://www.motoring.com.au/more-powerful-toyota-prado-comin…
Looks better wait for the 2021 version
It's already out…
Yay 200 hp………. sigh.
@spackbace: Don't know about you but it seems like they do here.
SQ5 and GLC63 seem standard issue mom car.
@spackbace: Sorry. Sorry. Old habits.
for status image, not the engine size or output
Definitely not for the output but image? Not sure. There are number plates here that cost more than those cars. Those are the true ballers.
That's what my wife said
Can I ask what the reasoning behind your first requirement? Do you need an adult size third row because you have a large family or is the third row for carting the in-laws around when they are in town for a week or so every year. If it is the latter I would get a powerful and fun to drive two row suv with ample boot space and hire a Kia carnival for the few times you'd need the third row.
My parents live with us and kids, so it's highly chance we do short trip from time to time.
Did considered people mover, it's ideal option in the city, but won't fit if going to the bush.
Define "going to the bush".
Do you mean basic fire trails or are you considering Fraser Island or a trip to the Top End?
Honestly I hate the comments like this. A question for the sake of question because of course they have nothing useful to add.
@kma: It’s a perfectly valid question. Some people consider the occasional dirt road means you need a true 4wd with a lift kit and winch. Others will know that an AWD SUV will do a lot of stuff without mods.
If the OP means they want to drive up the in-laws graded gravel farm road once a year, They don’t need a 4wd. If however, they do want to explore the beach and harder tracks, a 4wd with low range makes sense.
@Euphemistic: Fair, but where is the recommendation? What have they done with the information provided by OP?
@kma: The OP asked about SUVs but then gave "proper" 4WDs as an example of what he wanted to purchase. He then gave examples of where he wanted to drive.
If you want me to reply "Oh yeah, a proper 4WD would be best" then I can do that but what's the point?
I use hundreds of kms of fire trails as part of my job. I regularly take a Corolla or a 2WD SUV on them if the track is in reasonable condition. Admittedly they are usually hire cars (so they go anywhere) but I've also taken the Avensis Verso and Honda Odyssey and my other personal softroaders and people movers on some quite bad unsealed roads (if you know the road to Coolandel near Nowra).
Apologies for leaving you with bated breath.
3rd row comfortability
Doesn't exist
/thread
Basically this. You don’t get “3rd row comfortably” and “off road” in the same package…
I also laughed when I read about third row.
Plus you don't want to be in the third road when you go serious off road.
Get a rebuilt 1984 FJ45 Troopy. Plenty of seating and off road capability.
@DashCam AKA Rolts: But OP thinks the Prado has a "weak engine" at 130kw pulling 2.3t! The troopy would have a fraction of that power to weight ratio - apart from all the safety, handling, comfort, reliability, diesel particulates and running cost issues of an ancient truck. And I'm sceptical that it would have any more offroad ability than modern true 4WDs with their technology aids.
But then again OP says he wants a vehicle that "looks tough". I suppose getting an old troopy is the ultimate in buying for image rather than substance.
there are some Mitsubishi Delicas grey imports and some Hiace 4wd around there.
I would not consider those SUVs thou
You say you've done research, but: SUV =/= 4WD; #3 reason is resale and you have a Haval on your list.
Maybe re-hash your requirements, give us some preferences, and maybe we can suggest something.
Per there comments, they just want something that "looks tough"—I.e. every soft roader suv owner ever.
What are the off-road requirements specifically?
Options would be Land Cruiser, Prado, MU-X, Paj Sport, Everest or Fortuner.
Thanks, but is Nissan Patrol a even better option?
A little more cost compared Prado, but in the class of land cruiser?
You know the patrol is petrol only?
And still uses less petrol than the 200 series oil burner with a dusty airbox.
Or the real Pajero.
Good call… sorry, add Patrol & Pajero.
What about LR Disco and Jeep Cherokee? :)
You mean Grand Cherokee? No third row.
The Jeep Grand Wagoneer might be in Australia next year with third row. Great car but would be 100k++
Disco is over $100k
Second land cruiser.
b & b are proper 4WDs not SUVs.
Do you actually need the off-road capability? The cost of proper off-road ability is worse fuel economy, a generally harsher ride, larger turning circle, higher maintenance costs, etc. It's a big price to pay for looking tough to the neighbours and relatives.
Thanks, I do understand that
You alluded to living in Sydney in another post. The Patrol is a BIG car. It's 1.95 m tall - there's going to be a lot of underground carparks that you won't fit in, even if you keep it standard. And 5.18 m long and 2 metres wide - have you measured that up against your current car? I'd love the Patrol for its creamy V8, but even living regionally I would baulk at having such a large car.
In respect of your second point, if you push your 4WD to the limits or are setting it up for outback touring, there's a fair few things that you will need to weigh up between different 4WDs. But for what you seem as if you'll use it for, any new 4WD will do you fine off road (particularly if you add a good set of tyres).
Also in respect of your comment about the Prado being underpowered - they all are, save for the Patrol, V6 Amarok and some of the Jeeps. Even the V8 Landcruisers aren't that quick in a straight line (unless you tune them). As already said, a 4WD is a compromise on road, so be prepared to accept that.
Thanks for comment and it's informative.
It looks the patrol is a bit struggling to cope with car park size of ordinary shopping centres, with the exception of Costco.
I will take that into consideration and the 5.6 l engine.
Maybe I will go for the Prado eventually like most of the people.
The Patrol would be costly to run as well given the V8 and the mass it has to haul and the fact that it requires 95 octane petrol.
Most car parks in Sydney can handle 2.1m.
The patrol is the same size as many 4x4 utes and vans. There plenty of them in shopping centre car parks.
Admittedly I live in Queensland, but there are a surprising number of carparks that are restricted to 1.9 or 2 metres. My first 4WD was a smidge over 2 metres tall and whilst most new-ish shopping centres were fine, I still faced a lot of buildings where it wouldn't fit - in particular I wouldn't venture into the CBD without first checking where it would fit parking-wise.
Prado or Fortuner, both of which just had updates to the engine and are on sale now, however it's highly likely you won't be able to get one for a couple of months.
Please consider the age of your kids and parents. Don't expect to have car seats for the kids in the 2nd row, and older parents getting in the 3rd row. If your kids are too young for the 3rd row, then you're looking at the wrong car or need to revise your thought process.
Make sure you are planning to take longer drives once a month or so. Don't buy a diesel for trips to the shops and back 99% of the time. Stretch it's legs and clean out the DPF
Don't go Haval.
Thanks mate for your advise.
I don't need to buy one until end of year so still have plenty of time to look around and to test driving.
It does look need to balance comfortability and
roadworthiness.
Prado sold over 320000 units since introduced to Australia comes with a reason
I don't need to buy one until end of year
When do you hope to drive it out the door though?
around mid Dec to mid Jan
@hfwangau: Yeah, don't look at buying a Prado in December and hoping for stock on the floor straight away…
Although I hate to admit it, prado seems a better but for you. Still quite popular in most of the regional and rural areas. Wish it had more tech like the rivals.
Ford bronco. Ram ur kids in
Can't wait for the new Bronco to land here. Insta-buy. Doesn't seem likely though as not being produced in RHD.
What is the appeal of the Bronco?
Apart from the looks (which TBH, is similar to a Wrangler), it fits larger tyres than an Everest but is otherwise a very similar car. Larger tyres is great for a proper rock crawl but that's fairly niche in Straya.
It's a solid replacement option for the FJ Cruiser with decent V6 engine option for those that don't want a Wrangler. Fun, quirky, well thought out and apparently very off-road capable so ideal well balanced lifestyle vehicle.
The Everest looks like a generic cheap basic SUV inside and out.
Manufacturers have lost their flair and creativity with the focus on cheaper and cheaper with smaller and smaller engines. The Bronco bucks that trend. Pun not intended.
@Hybroid: Fair enough.
Personally, I think it's a lot of style over substance which the petrol V6 would be here in Aus but there is no denying that styling is lacking in the Everest.
Having said that, I always look at 4x4 through modded lens and I actually think the Everest mods handsomely. Judging from the Wrangler mods, I reckon the Broncos will follow suit where they will end up all looking alike.
Also, OJ's favorite mode of transport.
Title should really be 4wd, not so much SUV going by the brief….and Haval shouldn't be in the list.
4wd I would take a good look at the Everest. Patrol would be nice, they're huge but they are also pretty thirsty, especially if it spends a lot of time stop/start
.
AWD SUV, the Kia Sorrento GT Line or CX-9 Azami would be my picks. I'm not a big fan of Kia but the Sorrento brings a pretty good package to the table.
If you're putting people/kids in the back row regularly, get something with vents back there. What puts me off the Prado is the side folding 3rd row. Put them in the floor already!
Look at luggage capacity with 3rd row in use. Some are tiny, the prado used to be, no idea if it’s better now.
Go back to your research and come up with a better (but equally short) list. You are concerned about the power of the Prado Diesel when the H9 has a tiny petrol engine, and it’s well under your budget whisk the patrol is pretty pricey. So do you want cheap fun or legendary capability? or fuel economy or great tow capacity?
Skoda Kodiaq. Yes it’s not a full blown 4x4, yes it’s a Tiguan (Ozbargain hates Volkswagen and just about anything European) but they’re actually brilliant. I’ve sat in the very back before (6’ male) and whilst it was a short trip, it wasn’t bad. Kids would be fine back there.
Good looking, heaps of features, and slots in easy to your price range. The RS model just landed too if you wanted a bit more fun (at a compromise of comfort).
It looks similar to the current vehicle we have, and the rs model doesn't look for the off road option as well as the fuel tank size and ground clearance height.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Here's your revised list of requirements.
Based on that, you really want the new Prado GXL at least but that starts you off at the top end of your budget. Personally, I like front sensors (and many of the inclusions) but the VX will tip you over by $9k.
If you really want the sensors and still have the same off-road tricks (factory rear lock is a big plus), the Ford Everest Trend 4wd will take you close to budget cap.
For similar level of tech in a dated platform, the Pajero GLX will leave you with change.
Those are practically the only cars that will fit the requirements above.
Many thanks for the suggestion.
I already own a Ford Kuga and not so good experience, so this time will give Ford a miss.
Did performed some research into Pajero, the 615mm third row seat legroom isn't pleasant comparing to Prado or Patrol, the fuel tank size also a bit disappointed if going to the heartland of the country.
If I can get a Patrol with the buget it will be the first choice, otherwise Prado looks all the way
The Patrol is $11k over your budget for the poverty pack model.
The running cost is also silly. That thing goes through fuel like it's born to stay at home, however, if you can justify the fuel cost, it is the best of all the options above.
The fuel is cheap these days and as long as we don't have to stick in traffic jam all the time, the running cost is similar to LC200.
And price wise, I found it's negotiable as I heard many bought below 75k in the middle of year.
Now I even can find the listed drive away price is below 80k for the low end model, if listed as this price, 75k is well possible
https://www.mvmg.com.au/stock/details/717770/2020-nissan-pat…
@hfwangau: That's a good price. I'd go for it.
Only thing that stopped me from getting a TI Patrol when I was in the market was the lack of quality mods. Not an issue if you're not planning for hardcore use.
@hfwangau: It's unwise to buy a gas guzzler on the basis of current fuel prices. In a year's time it aint likely to be anywhere near so cheap …
I will have my Patrol Ti delivered in a few days. $75k is achievable if you shop around, but you may need to move if you want particular colour/trim by January. 3rd row seats in these are reasonably roomy if you are filling it up. Be aware that the base spec Ti seats 8, but the TIL seats 7.
Does it have to be new?
They were struggling to give the patrol away a while ago, that’s the pick of what you listed.
If secondhand is an option, go a 2016 200 series. Or even better a Late 100 series.
A lot of it has got to do with their diehard following and marketing.
I think it is a decent car but it failed to transition from a Rock crawling live front axle to a "do it all" IFS vehicle the way the land cruiser did.
The flow on effect compounded to their problems as the 4x4 market is largely influenced by aftermarket parts and mods. The Patrol has seen their cult status disappear in the last decade and it ain't coming back without a miracle.
Fortuner much better off road than prado.
2.8l diesel. 150kw Power 500nm Torque,
and 3rd row seats
2.8l diesel. 150kw Power 500nm Torque,
and 3rd row seats
Prado has the same
It also gets the worst reviews on ride (particularly in the 3rd row) of pretty much every review I've seen.
Comfort can be a big compromise on the ute chassis based 4wd's. Everest seemed to get it sorted the best.
150kw is not a lot of power
500Nm is plenty of torque though.
Torque means nothing without power. And with 150kw and 500nm that’s likely just a small peak in the curve and the average will be more like 400nm.
@[Deactivated]: You see, now you’re just being ignorant… torque is everything. Without torque, there is no power. Torque is the ability to turn the wheels when a load is applied. Power is just a measure of how often it can do that in a set time frame.
Power is the measure of torque over a time scale. On a diesel, the ”power” is low, because the time scale (RPM) is low. Diesels produce their torque very low in the rev range, so they don’t get the benefit of using higher RPM to boost their “power” figure.
If power is everything, why do trucks use engines that only produce 400kW when they could use a 1,000kW car engine? Because the truck engine produces 2,200Nm of torque @ 1,200rpm, where the car produces 300Nm @ 6,800rpm.
average will be more like…
I don’t even know what this means…
@pegaxs: What that means is the area under the torque curve. Toyota marketing might have dictated a peak torque of 500nm from the engineers, but that might be a momentary peak at 2100rpm and a drop off to 400nm at 2200rpm to 3500rpm red line. If you’ve ever driven a 150kw 500nm engine you’d know what I mean by lack of power. The engine feels really good from a stand still to about 30kmh, then it quickly runs out of revs and has to change gear. It’s a product of the small diesel power band and rev range and the outright lack of power. A 200kw 500nm engine would feel much better. 150kw just isn’t enough. A genuine 500nm across the rev range is, but most engines don’t do that.
but that might be a momentary peak
That's what "peak torque" is… Torque doesn't linger around peak for any length of time. Would be nice if it did…
The engine feels really good from a stand still to about 30kmh, then it quickly runs out of revs and has to change gear
That's because you are expecting the power delivery of a petrol from a diesel engine. It's not how torque delivery works on a diesel engine and is not how a diesel engine should be driven. The torque graph for a diesel is entirely different to a petrol and this leads to the biggest complaint I get at work. It's when uneducated people buy their first diesel and try and drive it like their previous petrol vehicle and complain "it's got no power :(" when it has double the torque of their last vehicle. Here's a thought, drive it in its power range and don't ping it off it's head in every gear like to have to do in a petrol.
A 200kw 500nm engine would feel much better.
And taking it from 150kW to 200kW would simply be moving the peak torque further up the rev range (150kW and 500Nm @ 2,900rpm, vs 200kW and 500Nm @ 3,900rpm). It would have little to no driving difference to move the peak torque further up, and the car would possibly feel slower to accelerate. And if you are going to move the peak torque that high up in the rev range on a diesel, you may as well just make it a petrol engine.
A great example of how wrong you are is further down you said that the Nissan with its petrol V8 was a better alternative. The V8 is twice the cubic capacity (Toyota 2.8l 4cyl diesel vs Nissan 5.6l V8 Petrol), yet only produces 60Nm more. And it doesn't produce this "peak torque" until 4,000rpm, with peak power (only 298kW) not produced until 5,800rpm!!! You literally have to wring its neck to get the torque and power outputs you seek. The diesel here does it at 1/2 the rpm, half the engine capacity and for about 1/3rd the fuel used.
@pegaxs: 1/3 of the fuel used? Also 1/3rd the fun too.
Dunno when you drove a petrol car last but that's generally how they are engineered to make their power - they are buttery smooth and have no problems reving at all. Slap a turbo on the side of any petty motor and peak power and torque come in a hell of a lot lower - take a look at a turbo falcon - 450NM @ 1500rpm, 533NM @ 1950rpm.
Just cause diesels would have a stroke above 5000rpm and be ringing their necks out with no steam left in the tank doesn't mean the petrol does. Its just where the fun starts.
Apples and oranges.
Apples and oranges.
That’s the point. They are different and need to be treated differently. They both do a similar job, but do it in totally different ways.
As for the “Falcon” example, it’s a 4 litre, 6 cylinder engine (vs. 4cyl, 2.8) Still an orange and apple comparison.
diesels would have a stroke above 5000rpm and be ringing their necks out with no steam left in the tank
And as I said, this is not how Diesel engines are designed to be driven. Most “petrol” drivers drive diesels like they are driving their petrol cars because they feel the need to ping it off the rev limiter because that’s where petrol engines work.
Dunno when you drove a petrol car last
And for what it is worth, all of my vehicles are petrol vehicles.
@pegaxs: hence why they are good for towing and 4wd where low speed torque is everything (sometimes too much) double the weight of the carriage and that TD still feels good, sometimes even triple with the turbo 6s.
@[Deactivated]: Please don't run with 'maybes', it's very easy to find details online. Toyota have 1 of the flattest torque curves among turbo-diesels:
Torque 500Nm @ 1600-2800rpm
1200rpm peak torque band
Easy enough to find.
Now, let's compare that to the Ford 2.0TT
Torque 500Nm @ 1750-2000rpm
250rpm peak torque band
I have a tuna. Agreed. It’s great off-road, spend 2k in a decent suspension setup and it’s plush as, even on 18’s.
Fortuner better off road
Why would you even bother to come in and say this? Not only can neither of those go off-road at all, but the Model Y isn’t even available for preorder here, let alone sale.
Beacaue he/she bought one and they have told everyone they know about it.
Since no-one cared, they now seek validity from the random ozbargin community by posting it in any car related thread.
Nah it’s about educating people, since an inordinate number of people have dumb & outdated ideas about EVs
@[Deactivated]: “ Nah it’s about educating people, since an inordinate number of people have dumb & outdated ideas about EVs”
Exhibit A
@Boogerman: You can’t educate anyone because you don’t know what you are talking about. All you’re doing is spreading misinformation.
Model X can go off road - plenty of YouTube videos on it
Additionally, people who ‘want’ to go off-road typically don’t in practice or think driving off-road is simply an unsealed track
That’s just bullshit. Does it have AWD and advanced traction control? Yes. Does it have enough clearance at the highest suspension setting? Not even close. Does it have appropriate approach, departure and break over angles? Hell no. Does it have sufficient underbody protection to stop the pack getting punctured? Hell no. Is said protection even available? No, not now or ever. Would anyone be stupid enough to take their $170k Tesla off road? Maybe one or two morons. Is it in the OPs budget? Not even close. Am I wasting my time talking to someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about? Yes I am.
@[Deactivated]: 9 inch ground clearance
Titanium underbody plate
Used Model X can be had for under $100K
Stick to Bathurst, maaaaaaaaaate
@Boogerman: Have you ever driven a Model X? Because I have, plenty of times. 9 inches of clearance isn’t even close to enough for a start. That titanium plate is about 1ft long and obviously doesn’t cover most of the pack. I can’t believe I’m bothering arguing with someone as obviously wrong as you are. I’m a huge fan of EVs, but you are speaking absolute bollocks. There isn’t an off-road EV in existence until the Rivian starts production next year.
Supply / demand issue. If demand exceeds capacity to supply, no discount.