I live in metro Melbourne and rarely drive in regional areas.
Today, I was driving on the Hume Freeway, and the rain was significant at times. Even though I felt it is quite unsafe to drive at the normal speed (110km/h), most drivers seemed to care less. I felt that I might lose grip. I ended up driving around 95-100km/h on the left lane to see vehicles piling behind me before overtaking.
What would you do in these conditions?
According to who? Who is your source? I asked for proof or citation.
Common sense. Cars have advanced massively, speed limits have not changed, or have gone down. You really think they would set the limit at what the best driver and car could do? You actually think 110 is the safest speed you can go on a straight highway in the dry?
You actually think 110 is the safest speed you can go on a straight highway in the dry?
Yes, if you account for the idiots who tailgate and cut in front without indicating when you are leaving a safe distance ahead.
@brendanm: Let's just run through your claim:
Onya champ.
@brendanm: Expectations of road safety have changed massively too. Many people would be horrified if fatalities went back up to what they were when speed limits were first introduced.
I'm not saying that his statement is correct, but it grates me when people demand proof from others when they haven't actually provided any proof for their own statements.
You state that people are justifying their dangerous driving with their skill and experience. How have you concluded that it is dangerous driving instead of just more confident drivers?
You imply that skill and experience plays no role but that is clearly not correct. Do you think you can perform better on a wet racing track than a racecar driver using the same vehicle? If not, why not? This is an extreme example, but the same can play out on the road to a lesser extreme.
I think we most of us have experienced the old granny driving at 80 in a 100 zone, is it because everyone driving at 100 are dangerous? Why do Camry drivers drive slower than everyone else, is it because everyone else is dangerous?
How have you concluded that it is dangerous driving instead of just more confident drivers?
Because people who think they're better than usually average aren't. They're worse. See the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The easiest way to tell a good driver is to ask if they're a good driver. If they say yes, they're not. If they give a cautious "I guess I'm average, I could do better", they are.
I think we most of us have experienced the old granny driving at 80 in a 100 zone, is it because everyone driving at 100 are dangerous?
It is a 100 zone? Is it raining? Then yes.
Why do Camry drivers drive slower than everyone else, is it because everyone else is dangerous?
Confirmation bias. Yet more evidence for your lack of critical thinking skills.
You know, the same skills that give you confidence you're an awesome driver.
@GrueHunter: Anecdotally, I did see three Camrys yesterday in the pissing down rain and in the span of 200m without their headlights on.
@GrueHunter: So you're implying that the 3/4 of the people polled are not good drivers (based on the polls), because they are more confident?
I would say that there are people in both categories that would fit the bill for the Dunning-Kruger effect. You think you're a good driver because you drive more slowly in the wet? A more cautious driver yes, better driver, not necessarily.
No need for the personal attacks, they don't help you look smarter / more popular / whatever you're needing.
I'm not saying that his statement is correct, but it grates me when people demand proof from others when they haven't actually provided any proof for their own statements.
your 'experience' doesn't change the laws of physics
Exactly! The number of big heavy 4WD experts (often with trailers) tailgating on the motorway yesterday was quite scary.
Keep your distance, people. Especially when the visibility is poor and it's seriously wet with a risk of water over road…
I'm more than capable at driving at the speed limit in the rain - I also allow for stopping distance and keep my distance from other drivers.
There's nothing wrong with doing precisely that.
Ah, yes, 100kmph is safe, while 110kmph with no one on the road in dry is magically unsafe, cos the gubb'mint told you so.
Ah, yes, and that time you ran a red light or didn't stop at a stop sign or give way or drunk drove and magically you didn't hit anyone also means that those gubb'mint rules are unnecessary. Great logic. I love how you think you are the sole arbiter of which road rules are fine to disregard and the circumstances in which you disregard them.
True, just because you spend your life going to the toilet doesn't make you expert in microbiology. It is like the idea that as fast car is one that goes fast in a straight line.
OP should add another option: pull off the road to let the train of other cars overtake every so often.
ended up driving around 95-100km/h on the left lane to see vehicles piling behind me before overtaking
OP was on a multi lane motorway where it is illegal to pull off the road into the emergency lane unless it is an emergency.
I must say…. why would people follow behind a guy going slow on a multi-lane motorway?
Funny, I would've thought creating a train of traffic behind you with already low visibility would be more dangerous than actually doing the posted speed?
If you're not confident in the rain, take the next exit and find your way to your destination on 60km/h streets.
Wet or dry, our Australian limits of 110km/hr are sooooooooooooooooooooooo 1980's !
My father was driving his Datsun 120Y back at the time at those limits. Over 40 years later the speed limits are still the same yet the roads are generally in better conditioned and probably engineered to be safe as possible (think multi lane, divided lanes, barriers, runoffs etc)
Cars are soooooooooooo much more safer these days and can easily handle any conservative Australian regulations on offer today without any effort.
Cars are soooooooooooo much more safer these days
Whilst this may be true two factors stand out:
What, not even a basic check to renew your registration as in NSW?
Shockingly not. We're the only state that has it (NT has it after 10yrs) and the rest just don't have it at all or only when transferring owners/moving interstate rego. Technically could buy a car new and never have it checked over the whole ownership period in most states.
@JDMcarfan: I agree, I was shocked that there wasn't an annual checkup of the car when we moved from NZ where a WOF (warrant of fitness - roadworthy here) is required yearly.
In saying that, in Melbourne we do have great roads so perhaps it evens out (we still have crap drivers who overestimate their abilities though).
Assuming we aren't more advanced it is a motorway / freeway that is statistically the safest road out there, even at 110km/hr.
A 10 year old hunk of junk is still much more advanced (think likely ABS, seat belts, airbags, crumple zones etc) than any Datsun 120Y from 40 years ago.
back in the day I drove my XC panelvan with retreads :P It'd "float" on some roads at the speed limit. my cars these days are definately safer, speed limits are the same (using my sample of 5 cars though in that statement!)
soooooooooooo
I thought Jeanne Little died, but here you are
Road crashes are just diviiiiiiiine aren't they daaaaaarling
Our standards of safety have also risen a lot since the 1980s.
Sure - if the goal was to maintain a steady death toll on the roads we would have much faster speed limits thanks to the improvements in vehicle safety and road design.
But, if the goal is to reduce the number of fatalities, why not leave the speed limit as it is? Fatalities are dropping, faster roads are more dangerous, 110 vs 130 doesn't really make a big difference to anyone's life.
There are roads out there that are straight enough and long enough that 130 would make a huge difference and is less fatiguing.
I agree. Drive Sydney to Brisbane along the coast now it’s virtually all dual carriageway. Completely boring at 110, especially with cruise control. Just hours barely turning he steering wheel. Arrive tired.
Drive the New England and you’ll be much more alert, but fatigued at the end for different reasons.
On the other hand I don’t trust city drivers to cope with 130 on the open highway. They just aren’t used to log distances at high speeds.
Its a totally deliberate policy to attempt to improve road safety over time, not to negate other advances by increasing speed limits.
Fatalities per 100,000 were 22 in 1980, 4.6 in 2018.
Could probably increase the speed limit quite a lot if happy for it to go back up to 22. Just hope you aren't one of the extra 3,000 odd people who die each year.
My father was driving his Datsun 120Y(en.wikipedia.org) back at the time at those limits
Just because he made it a few didn't. Human body isn't created to come to fast decelerated stop from high speed.
The human body isn't designed for that - so what are you implying re: speed? Reduction from the current speed to what?
so what are you implying re: speed?
Drive at a safe speed regardless of speed limit. Speed limit is upper bounds.
Reduction from the current speed to what?
You just want to nail some hard and fast rule. Truth is regardless of the speed limit people seems to be able to cause trouble. Some people should just be walking or taking public transport.
People feel entitled to drive and drive at the speed limit. Well there is news for those people.
@netjock: You are implying that driving at legal highway speed is not a good thing for bodies to decelerate, then what is a safe speed?
@TheMindsetTraveller: Get over mate. Evolution only allowed Cheetahs to run so fast because they needed to. Obviously we don't.
You are just looking for a stake in the ground to land a sea of "but what about…"
Why don't you Google it rather than OzBargain the answers.
@netjock: So now you would like to introduce evolution to your argument? Ok good, so we don't need to run fast but we are able to drive at speed limits which are legal however our bodies are not really designed to decelerate that fast - from an evolution point of view.
Ok good, so we don't need to run fast but we are able to drive at speed limits which are legal however our bodies are not really designed to decelerate that fast - from an evolution point of view.
Unless you can redesign the body you can build whatever to go fast as you want. Richard Hammond from Top Gear got into a high speed crash and there was all the technology but he still ended up in ICU.
Just because you can design rockets that go into space and space suits that help circulation at high Gs doesn't mean you are immune from blacking out due to physics and evolution.
You can try to overcome evolution with help of technology but you can't quicken the pace.
@netjock: Good morning
What is a 'safe speed'
At what speed are human bodies [created or] able to decelerate from [safely]?
@TheMindsetTraveller: Encyclopedia doesn't cost thousands now, the media could be purchased for less than a hundred bucks.
Maybe do some research. Might help to make you sound more knowledgeable.
@netjock: You stated that the 'Human body isn't created to come to fast decelerated stop from high speed.' so what is a safe speed? Like if the road is 110km/hr, then your statement confirms that the body isn't designed to decelerate from that high speed….then you would know what speed is safe?
you would know what speed is safe?
You too would know what the safe speed is. The one that doesn't seriously harm yourself or anything else you might run into because you lack common sense.
You like most people don't understand "limit" is the limit, you can travel at all speeds below that. You don't go smacking everyone in the head during peak hour because traffic means 110kph comes to a 20kph crawl.
@netjock: But your original argument was the human body was not designed to decelerate from high speed …. it is not about whether someone's going to drive 100 when others are doing 20.
So since high speed is your qualifier, what is the speed? Lets hypothetically say, if someone crashes at 60kmhr in a 1000000km/hr zone is the body designed for that? That is your argument after all.
But your original argument was the human body was not designed to decelerate from high speed
If you got run over by a car doing 40kmph you are unlikely to survive. That is instant acceleration by getting hit by an object.
Lets hypothetically say
The standard beginning for people who are talking rubbish.
@netjock: Good, now you are starting to back up your argument that "the human body isnt designed to come for fast decelerated stop from high speed". I am going to suggest that you are implying that ALL speed limits should be much less than 40km/hr then, yes or no?
I didn't look at the youtube video because it did not argue your original point. Any reasonable person knows the chances are slim with an accident at 110km/hr but that has never been my argument. You brought in the human body aspect so lets focus on that rather than introducing new stuff.
implying that ALL speed limits should be much less than 40km/hr then, yes or no?
I wasn't implying anything. People have died for less. You're just trying to put down a line and dance around it like some bad street busker.
I didn't look at the youtube video because it did not argue your original point
The youtube does support my original point. That is the point of posting it. The facts are confronting and you just can't accept it. It goes to my point that you don't really take in facts. You just like to argue over the use of words and twist it so you can have some kind of a win. Turns out it doesn't further any understanding, just irrelevant rubbish.
@netjock: Let us go back right to the start and this is the fact:
I said: My father was driving his Datsun 120Y(en.wikipedia.org) back at the time at those limits
You replied: Just because he made it a few didn't. Human body isn't created to come to fast decelerated stop from high speed.
This is my interpretation,
My father drove his slow car back with no ABS, no airbags, no traction control, no autonomous braking or lane keep assist, in the 1980s at the speeds we still have today.
Just because he didn't kill himself doesn't mean anything. The body isn't designed to survive accidents involving legal freeway speeds.
And what would your interpretation be?
Happy to debate perpetually.
@TheMindsetTraveller: Some deceleration injuries include your aorta being torn from your heart and your brain impacting your skull.
It would appear you have experienced at least one of those.
Depends on how far I can see. I’ve been in rain where I can only see 2 car lengths down the road and have had to slow down because you don’t know if a car is suddenly going to appear out of the ether going much much slower in my lane.
the biggest annoyance here in QLD is the slow people take up all lanes, your not comfortable driving above 60km/h in the wet? Don't sit in the right hand lane, get into the left lane
And they can get quite belligerent if you flash them to try and get them to move over. Their argument is invariably, "I'm doing the speed limit so nobody should be passing me!". This is completely blockheaded as, even though no one is supposed to break into houses, I suspect that they've locked theirs while they're out.
You're assuming that anyone in your way has taken on the self-appointed role of traffic police. If they're overtaking a slower car then they are doing nothing wrong. You can flash/tailgate all you like, but you're the aggressive a-hole in the wrong.
Speed limit drivers in the wet had better read up on "aquaplaning"
Yep, lots of standing water on a highway 🙄😂
Absolutely there is but by the time you see it at speed it would already be too late.
Not sure what crappy highway you drive on. By design they have a fall to the edge of the road.
Agreed, my mates were driving a relatively new Toyota Corolla from Syd to Wollongong in heavy rain and the car aquaplaned. (I wasn't driving)
I've also driving a rear wheel drive E36 BMW and going slowly the car fishtailed (drifted) right in the middle of the city.
I've learnt my lesson that during rain, traction is poor regardless of tyres perhaps due to contamination on the roads, but I play it safe and drive appropriately for the conditions.
Stupid poll. You should drive to the conditions. Drive at a speed that YOU feel safe. The sign is a maximum, and also a guide.
Another "everyone who drives slower than me is a grandma and everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac" thread
Maybe if I was OPs car with OPs (old!!!) tires with OPs level of anxiety I too would feel unsafe, but I'm not, so I don't
I drive a well balanced sports sedan (5 series) with a sports suspension setup and tyres (PS4s) that handle extremely well in the wet from new to when they hit the tread indicators
The Hume is one of the straightest flattest best visibility best maintained bits of road in the state. Half width unlined country back roads with blind crests … that's where I slow down
On a straight section of the Hume, yes, it's probably perfectly fine to drive at the limit in the wet.
That said, accidents can happen that are entirely out of your control. Maybe a cow walks onto the road, car breaks through the barrier from the opposite direction, someone pulls out infront of you etc etc.
If that does happen - no matter your vehicle, could be a f1 car or a camry with bald tyres - your stopping distance and cornering speeds are going to be much worse in the wet. So, if you have a lower appetite for risk (or you care about the safety of others) you might want to slow down a little to minimise that danger.
The Hume is one of the straightest flattest best visibility best maintained bits of road in the state
But you have also the nutters between the ring road to Wallan. They drive like someone is throwing money out of a helicopter and they need to get there fast.
OP, you used your judgement and drove to the conditions you experienced- there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was not there, don’t know about general visibility, road. You got where you needed to go safely in adverse road conditions. Well done. Don’t hesitate to slow down, even on the very best roads really heavy rain will reduce your visibility to the point that travelling at max speed limit is unsafe.
Always drive to the conditions and perhaps ignore what yours and other d@cks advise👍 Your first responsibility as a driver is to the safety of your passengers and yourself.
Reading many of the comments here they are rubbish and ignore them.
It was the first one that got me about 4WDs. I own a recent 4WD and have driven them for many years.
4Wds compromise and lot of things to do one thing well, (dual cab utes sometimes do 2 things well) their design is biased away from high speed on tarmac road.
Their centre of gravity is high and while in wet road conditions with a pair of road type tyres they are probably OK, with all terrain or coarse tread tyres they are worse at holding the road in the wet and their braking distance isn’t going to be wonderful either.
They are also able to drive through flooded roads until they can’t, when they are more difficult for volunteers to undertake a rescue…..
I remember once I was driving in absolutely bucketing rain on a 110 road. Wipers were going full tilt but I still couldn't see much ahead of me. Thus I did what every responsible driver should for the condtions: I slowed down.
In fact I slowed down so much I started feeling unsafe even being on the road: if an idiot was doing 110 behind me, and his visibility was the same, they wouldn't be able to slow down in time, so I just pulled off the road onto the emergency lane, set the hazard lights on and waited 5-10 mins for the rain to subside a bit.
Clearly I wasn't the only one doing so, in that few minutes more cars stopped in the emergency lane than actually did go past.
The point is that sometimes pulling off the road and waiting for better conditions is a good idea.
I also wonder when I could not see much in front of me during a heavy rain period and others just drive like it was a sunny day… is there a driving secret that I didn't know about… or maybe they were just brave….
Brave … or incompetent.
‘Brave’ tends to indicate they either ignore fear or don’t understand it and charge on without any care of consequences.
"BuT MoDeRn CaRz ArE sAfEr. LaWz NeeD tO ChAnGe WiTh TeChNoLoGy!!11!!!1!"
My 2020 Tiguan AWD drives in the wet without a hitch… my 2016 Corolla that I had before however, I'd lose traction in the dry lol
Yep just leave a (much) bigger gap, but the same speed limit is fine, especially on the highway.
The roads speed limits are set for wet conditions that's why they are generally set so low for dry conditions, other than some corners and acceleration and braking, I drive the same speed in the wet as the dry in a straight line and on freeways. Generally in the wet I leave longer gaps to the cars ahead, slow down earlier and take longer braking distances for corners and accelerate slower because my car likes to spin the rears even when dry
The roads speed limits are set for wet conditions
Source?
If that's true, why do motoring bodies like the NRMA advocate for you driving slower in the wet, and even stopping completely in heavy rain?
Well the speed limits are set way way too low for the dry conditions, compared to other countries in western worlds we have super low limits
@gruehunter because they are a large car insurance company first and foremost and its in their best interest financially (stakeholders included) to advocate to everyone to "slow down" in wet weather?
I was northbound on the Hume Freeway between the metropolitan ring road and the Wallan turn off yesterday around 4pm.
The weather was shite but visibility was good with minimal spray from preceding vehicles. The road surface was draining well and felt grippy enough given the conditions.
I had my cruise control set at 80 for the roadworks then 100 and 110 depending on signage.
I ended up driving around 95-100km/h on the left lane
Thank you. It would appear you were the exception.
In my experience yesterday the only danger on that stretch of road was drivers with no confidence doing 20-30 km/h below the posted speed in the right lane. FFS I understand if you don't like the conditions but follow the road rules and get in the left lane you muppets.
"Driving to the conditions" does not mean if the weather is shite you have to drive like a piece of shite.
/rant
Whilst I agree with all your points - especially the one about keeping left if slow, the one which I didn't was the use of cruise control during wet roads.
There is ample evidence to suggest that use of it isn't recommended on wet roads - I'll pull up some sources, NRMA, RACQ and the best one is the Carsales advice.
In case you or others don't read those, most mention that it's a scare tactic to not use cruise control on wet roads and some are myths but it's recommended to be in control of your car during wet weather (and therefore best not to use cruise control).
And lastly, in case you disagree with me - here is a factcheck site which checks the validity of these claims - again reinforcing the articles above.
https://factcheck.aap.com.au/social-media-claims/cruise-cont…
Thanks for that. Though not new info for me it is appropriate to mention it.
I was content to use cruise control as there was no standing water (in fact the freeway was draining surprising well), my right thumb was sitting on the cancel button and my understanding is that the cruise control on mine and probably most modern cars disengages automatically as soon as the traction control is engaged.
Same with me, same road, same time. I was driving GLA180 and it was raining but not to the level required change in driving style beyond leaving appropriate following space.
My experience driving in Melbourne, and many other places, is that most people speed in normal conditions. So if they slow down to the speed limit in dangerous condition, I guess that's a good thing. Definitely if I do the correct speed at roadworks, people get irritated and a queue forms behind me (especially if there isn't any actual work happening). Same thing with wet weather or other hazardous conditions. Many don't care.
I don't speed as I value my cash/licence/driving record, but generally the limiting factor is the legal limit, not how fast I feel safe travelling.
Exceptions for:
- poor visibility or road conditions
- unsealed roads (10-40 km/h depending on surface so I don't chip my paint!)
- tight bends on roads with higher prevailing limits (these are getting fewer and fewer every year)
- close proximity to (profanity)
I figure if other traffic is forced to travel at the roadworks speed limits when there's no reason for them to be in force, those drivers are more likely to complain and improve the situation.
I currently drive an AWD sports car, as well as a sports motorcycle.
In any car, I drive to how I feel in it, and also depending how heavy the rain is.
I've driven in torrential downpours in QLD where I have had to slow down to 40 instead of doing 100.
In Melbourne, generally the rain hasn't been heavy enough to do that, and I feel quite comfortable driving my car at the speed limit in the rain.
In the past when I've ridden a motorcycle in the wet, I am a lot more cautious and slow down a bit, and also have to pay attention to the white paint.
Considering the comments you've made, based on the type of car you drive, I'm not surprised you don't feel comfortable driving at speed in the rain.
Mate if you are slow driver and scared to drive on road either in wet or dry roads then please stay on left most lane as people like you who hogs the road and create traffic pile up behind you.
Also now days cars are meant to drive at 110 KMPH even in wet weather but you have to ensure you have check your tyres and inflated well so that it gives you good grip on the road.
people like you who hogs the road
They were driving on the left and are entitled to drive at a safe speed. You don't have any more rights to use that road than any other road user.
Just because other people have a death wish doesn't mean you should be bullied into driving unsafely.
Also now days cars are meant to drive at 110 KMPH
No they are not.
That is the maximum speed in safe, dry conditions.
It always takes longer to stop in wet weather…
"That is the maximum speed in safe, dry conditions."
I think you are confusing what the VIC gov is telling you about safe conditions, with what modern cars are designed to do.
Many cars can drive safely far beyond 110 kmph in safe dry conditions and in many places the speed limit is much higher than this.
In wet conditions it depends on road conditions, car and specifically tyres. Dependent on these it might or might not be safe to drive 110.
I think you are confusing what the VIC gov is telling you about safe conditions, with what modern cars are designed to do.
VicRoads have built the roads so they know what is safe and what isn't.
Also, the safety of cars varies considerably between models and you can't base speed limits by car model.
@jv: I would argue the Vic roads aren't suitable for high speed at all; they're pretty crap to be honest.
VicRoads have built the roads
Generally to a 130 km/h design speed for freeways, even the ones with a posted limit of 80…
@jv: Haven't read the standard myself, but I'm calling a tentative BS on that.
The way these things are usually written it would be mainly based on sight lines, traffic volumes, widths, drainage, and some kind of degraded-mode braking performance (possibly heavy commercial vehicles with fade - a modern car would be much better, then again EU has lower limits for heavy vehicles on the same road). Neglecting visibility impacts, the speed would be applicable up to a certain level of rainfall which could be dispersed by the drainage system.
Do you have any additional info on these design standards?
but I'm calling a tentative BS on that.
So you don't think road surfaces would have different max speeds based on whether they are wet or not…
F1 would be very interested in that type of surface from Vicroads then…
@jv: I think the road surface for this design standard will have a drainage specification for a particular rainfall condition, below which the grip is still suitable for the design speed. Do you disagree?
Do you disagree?
Yes, the road surface will have a different CoF when wet, even with good drainage.
@jv: Didn't say it wouldn't be different.
The CoF will be assumed within a range, and above a certain grip threshold (likely related to a given maximum rate of rainfall), the speed would still apply, e.g. "If maintained in accordance with standard X, the road is suitable for 130 km/h in clear dry conditions, with visibility down to 200 m, and/or during rainfall of up to 3.2 mm/hour"
I have never felt unsafe driving in the rain, ONLY when my tyres were due to be replaced and i could feel the grip was going. Otherwise doing 110kph in the rain in a modern car felt completely normal.
Seems to me OP has zero faith in their driving ability & their car isnt a particularly good one.
Having done several driver training days on race tracks helps you know you and your vehicles limits as well.
Otherwise doing 110kph in the rain in a modern car felt completely normal.
Always does, until you need to brake suddenly.
Correct, but thats where situational awareness comes in, which i feel most people do not have. I always leave a safe distance (try and use the 3 second rule) but the amount of tailgaters in melbourne recently has become crazy, i even see learner drivers doing it like they think its normal driving.
You also need to be aware of WHERE you are, if your on a freeway and near an on/off ramp, expect a sudden build up of traffic, expect morons to try and cut across 4 lanes at once, be aware of the unsure gold camry driver doing 80 in the right hand lane only to suddenly brake because their exit is coming up. Learning to read traffic, the environment and the general situation at hand will prevent a majority of the 'accidents' i see happen .
OP driving in the left hand lane in the wet is fine, but they also need to realise if everyone else is doing 100kph and their sitting doing 60kph, this is also a major hazard.
I can't upvote this comment enough as it hits the nail on the head.
Awareness of your own capabilities and what others around you are doing and what they could do are very important. Is that person tail gating me aware that we're approaching a round about? I better start slowing down earlier to give them a chance to either slow down too or realise I'm about to stop. It's raining and if I brake too quickly, i'm going to find part of a car in my boot.
Not at all true. It's the maximum safe limit for the absolute lowest common denominator car/driver combination, in 1972.