Given the current situation a lot more people are exercising. Yesterday I saw a cyclist knock a person down. Both are okay and the cyclist rang their bell (as a warning prior), however both were on a footpath.
So, on a footpath (not a bicycle path), who has right of way?
Nope, have to be under 16. Even on a shared path cyclists need to give way to pedestrians. That said, as a former cyclist, pedestrians can be extremely unpredictable and make sudden right turns for no apparent reason so you do need to slow and give more room than you think and few seem to understand the "shared" part. You also can't win when it comes to the bell. Some get annoyed if you ring it and some get annoyed if you don't.
I would much rather they ring the bell so I'm aware they're approaching :) Not sure why you'd get annoyed if they rang it; isn't that what the bell is for - to warn others?
Some take it as you abusing them/asserting dominance/telling them to get out of your way etc.
@apsilon: And if you ride on the road some motorists hurl abuse and refuse at you whilst telling you to ride on the footpath. Australian cyclists can do no right by everyone.
@Scrooge McDuck: Anti cyclists are now the Anti vaxxers so it is going to be safe on the road after detla rips through them
same reason some people road rage at you for using your car horn. they think its a personal attack against them.
There are different ways of ringing a bell. The single ting from further back is "warning, bike coming". The ring-ring-ring from close by is "get out of the way".
@bb_hunter: I prefer to call out "rider(s)" rather than ring a bell. You can moderate the way you call out depending on the situation. Also a "hello" or "thank you" as you pass.
Pedestrians are the worst on shared paths.
The amount of people who wear headphones and cant hear the bell, and also run on the wrong side of the path!
My cycle path literally has a line down the middle like a road and pedestrians wonder everywhere with headphones on unable to hear what's going on..
I get at least one person a day shit themselves as they didn't hear my bell when I rid, or am surprised when I walk my large dog right past them and they didn't hear me approaching.
Sudden sound startles me
Ok for safety let them stay on the roads and become victim's of the screen watching drivers .
So it's okay for cyclists to mow down pedestrians on footpaths, but not okay for cars to mow down cylists on roads?
@Domingo: I never said its ok for cyclist to mow down anyone .
Main point is the roads are a crap shoot for them and the only cycling I would ever do is off them .
Like yesterday kids around the local school . Or some tracks that can be found .
Also a lot of pedestrians have headphones on so they don't hear the bell even if you ring it properly and with enough time to warn them when riding on a shared path.
Then I guess that would be on thier ownice.
@FredAstair: My cousin wound up in hospital when a headphone wearing pedestrian stepped out in front of him on a shared bike pedestrian path. He ran off the path to avoid them and went over the handle bars, landing face first on the gravel and required surgery to remove gravel embedded in his mouth. He wasn't riding that fast either.
@Rockets84: Notice your reply,
Not sure if you were just agreeing with me as I agree that pedestrians that don't watch where they're going is an increasing problem,
Allow with two mums pushing prams who feel it's thier right to block the entire path just so they can walk side by side and gossip.
As a pedestrian so many cyclists don't slow down before approaching. What's a couple of minutes wait, if you aren't getting where you need to on time leave earlier
Couple of minutes? Sounds like you need to stop picnicking on the path!
Seriously though, agree that some cyclists are in too much of a rush. If it takes more than 5 seconds it’s a pretty serious delay.
Maybe getting too slow can disrupt the balance, which means feet touching the ground..
12 or under in Victoria; unless supervising a cyclist aged 12 or under
I have found that ringing my bell often causes unnecessary confusion. I've had people promptly hop to the right (where I would be passing) after hearing me ring it. These days I always slow down enough to be able to say "coming past" quite loud and for whatever reason people seem to shift left a bit.
Legal in QLD
Yep, but OP isn't in QLD
Christ, the negs these days are ridiculous. Pretty clear that OP's location says Parramatta.
He is just stating à fact here
Yup. And we can also legally use e-scooters on footpaths … in fact it's illegal to use them on the road if there is a footpath available.
apparently it's totally illegal for adults (over 12yo?) to ride a bicycle on NSW footpaths
but the police don't have enough resources to chase everybody - especially since the most common offender seen in Sydney CBD area is a NESB (mostly Chinese) young person who a) can zip away at 50kph, and b) if stopped will typically claim 'sorry I don't understand English'
my favourite trick when one of these a/holes zips too close to me (within the recommended 1 metre) at speed, is to wave whatever I'm holding (a shopping bag) in front of their face (without hitting them) as they pass
the first guy I did that to - slammed on his brakes - was a MAMIL (Middle Aged Male In Lycra) - and red-faced exasperated panted 'WHY DID YOU DO THAT !!!???' - I simply replied 'because I don't like bicycles speeding past me too close without warning'
it's a very rare opportunity - most a/holes speed past too close from behind without warning - nearly giving me a heart attack at 'OMG if I had just stepped to my right then they would have hit me with their speeding heavy electric bicycle and could have killed me or left me with life-damaging injuries'
I recommend you do the same - a 'gentle' reminder that a speeding bicycle in footpaths is a life-threating nuisance.
What happens if you accidentally do hit them and they fall or swerve and hit someone else? I don't agree with illegally riding on footpaths but potentially causing an accident doesn't seem like the way to deal with it.
my favourite trick when one of these a/holes zips too close to me (within the recommended 1 metre) at speed, is to wave whatever I'm holding (a shopping bag) in front of their face (without hitting them) as they pass
Seems you’re just as bad as close passing cyclists. You are making it more dangerous for both of you.
No you can't but riding on the road is suicide these days. You're lucky to get 30cm of passing room, not to mention all the (profanity) on their phones.
law is the law, if it's too dangerous to ride on the road, leave the bike at home and walk / public transport in …
in some places its safer to ride on the footpath even if you're not supposed to. but in general when you operate any vehicle you should show caution around people walking. better safe than sorry.
Person should try to get out of the way if they can (just polite, so the cyclist doesn't lose their momentum especially on a hill) but the bicycle has the responsibility of slowing down/going around if the person doesn't. If a cyclist crashes into a person it is the cyclist's fault.
Isn't it better for pedestrians to continue as they are, unless there's no other way for the cyclist to get around? Unpredictable pedestrians are an issue for cyclists, if the pedestrian moves into the place the cyclist is moving to get around them they'll hit them too.
Best thing is for the pedestrian to continue without changing their behaviour, the cyclist can then navigate around. They should ring their bell so the pedestrian knows not to make sudden movements.
If there are too many people around, pedestrians can choose to move out of the way to allow the cyclist past.
That would be the ideal but it is hard to communicate that to everyone at once and get them to change their approach.
Good luck with that!
I cycle commmuted on a reasonably busy share path for a few years. Pedestrian behaviour in the morning was no problem, it was the regulars out for their morning constitutional. They kept left, kept their line etc. Afternoons were verging on dangerous, like riding past browns cows. I ended up settling on minimal bell ringing and passing as wide as possible while slowing down. Ringing the bell got anything from no response, to shouting abuse to jumping INTO my path on the wrong side of the path. Too many of them seemed to think it was akin to me yelling ‘get off my path’ and would stop and move off to the side or drag their partner out of the way when t wasn’t needed.
Yes, usually not a problem if it is only one person on a wide path.
But I have often seen two or more people walking together blocking the whole path. And somehow they are happy to scramble to give way to other people from the opposite direction, but not so much for bikes or other people from behind.. Not even God knows why..
What the hell cyclist are doing on dedicated (i.e. not shared) footpath?
They should not have it both ways i.e. riding on the roads expecting one meter clearance from the passing cars, riding 2-3 abreast and blocking the lane slowing the traffic as well as riding on the pedestrian only footpaths. The dependence of the kinetic energy on the velocity is quadratic, and cyclist riding at the speed of only 2-3 times faster then pedestrian (e.g. 6-10km/h) exerts 4-9 times more energy on pedestrian - in other words it it is equivalent as if you collided with a person weighting 300-500kg at normal walking pace. Cyclist if they have to ride on the footpath (e.g. at night, no lights etc) should exercise courtesy and care they expect from the drivers on the road.
Use the same maths to work out what its like to be clipped by a car. Most car users don't give 50cm, let alone 1m. Which is (profanity) scary and why I don't ride anymore.
I used it in one of my replies bellow, but again please stop the what-aboutism and exercise courtesy and care towards pedestrians if you have to share the path with them.
lots of people ride recreationally because its enjoyable. Riding on the road is terrifying. which is why I never do it. I exclusively ride on footpaths/shared cycle walk ways. I absolutely agree though, if you're cycling show courtesy and not hurt people out for a walk.
Also need to bear in mind that so many people have headphones on so can't hear the bike approaching, even if ringing a bell.
You want to police the volume that private citizens use their head/earphones in their own ears??
Hm. Guess the name checks out.
No I just think people should be aware of their surroundings for their own safety.
I feel like people think I am a cyclist based on the response, lol.
Yes the online name I gave myself as a 14 year old who got battlefield 2 from a pizza hut order really makes all the difference.
Mate, have you been seeing those ANC earbuds and headphones on Ozbargain lately?!?!? They don’t need to be loud, the good one cancel out noise, including bike bells.
Just like cars, they need to avoid pedestrians.
Yeah they are good. I just don't wear them in a way that puts me at risk of not hearing danger coming my way
Unsure why you're down voted h et e so much.
It's a mutual respect thing.
Cyclists and pedestrians
Yeah I wasn't even participating in the cyclist thing, just an observation about not putting myself in danger by not being able to hear what's around me.
@SgtBatten: I recall hearing once that some of the hatred towards cyclists is due jealousy.
Such as when they pass your car when you’re caught in a traffic jam.
Interesting perspective.
Cyclist ringing a bell is an FYI not “get out of my way”. Cyclist needs to assume the ped can’t hear, or can’t move quickly (elderly, injured, etc), and cycle in such a way that they would overtake instead of just bowl them down.
Normally, I would agree and that's what the bell is really for.
But all too often, I see cyclists riding up someone's a**, continuously ringing the bell. It's clear that they're trying to get the pedestrian to move out of their way. I bet they're the same cyclists that would complain if a car did that to them on the road. You have cyclists that are patient and courteous and then you've got those idiots who give everyone else a bad name.
Agreed the majority of cyclists do the right thing and ring the bell to let the pedestrian know they are coming as a courtesy.
Thank you :)
The first non biased opinon here.
Agreed. But just like in a car, there's no such thing as a friendly toot of the horn anymore. I just want to use it to let you know that I'm here.
Unfortunately, that is an Australian problem. We really need to use it as a friendly toot rather than an aggressive get out of my way…
Tried that the other day, for a woman parked in a drop of zone.
She promptly got out of her car a foot raged me telling me that tooting the horn is considered road rage..
I get anxious and feel terrible ringing my bell. it just feels like I'm disturbing people. But I do it so people know I'm coming up behind them so they won't be scared when I move around them. when I'm walking if a bike rushes past me and I didn't know it was coming it can be quite scary, and I like the bell just to know they're coming. its courteous.
Oh, please don’t feel bad. I am the same kind of pedestrian as you where I can’t hear a bike and then I literally jump when they enter my peripheral vision. Also, if I hear the bell I can move over and provide more space if possible.
I actually thank people who use their bell as a reminder that it’s a good thing!
I would say that common courtesy should be used but, f$%k, that doesn't seem to exist these days.
common courtesy has gone the same way as it's cousin, common sense
.
The most vulnerable is always the one with more rights/priority.
Person, Pushbike, Motorbike, Car, Van, Truck/bus.
The larger/faster vehicle always has to give preferential treatment/higher duty of care to the smaller/slower.
No sure that is completely true. Yes, the larger vehicle must take more care, but there are lots of situations where the size of the vehicle has nothing to do with who gives way.
Nice rule you've made up
Maybe check the road users handbook?
A car driver needs to leave space and has a duty of care for motor and push bike riders.
On a shared path pushbike users have a duty of care to leave space for foot pedestrians.
If you believe I made this up, you can check with any solicitor that deals with personal injury.
Small vehicles legally do need to give way to larger heavy vehicles such as B doubles semi trailers/buses when turning/lane changes.
Rules aside we all need to drive/ride more defensively. In the end we all want to get home safely to our families.
@Sweetnsour: In general driving the larger vehicle needs to be more careful, you have picked out 2 specific situations that have their own rules. When trucks and buses are changing lanes they have to make sure they have enough room.
Drivers only need to give way to buses when they are pulling away from bus stops in single lane roads, not when changing lanes. Drivers need to give way to trucks and buses when turning left from a middle lane on tight turns, but not in any other situation like exiting driveways or turning right.
The most vulnerable is always the one with more rights/priority https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/10929429/redir
.
you have picked out 2 specific situations that have their own rules
so is it the first sentence or the second?
maybe you should check the road user handbook and understand how traffic control devices work
Traffic lights, give way, pedestrian signals, 'do not overtake turning vehicle', 'give way to bus', railway crossings
I could come up with more, but priority isn't managed based on vulnerability. duty of care is a two way street.
@Bren20: You are not worth anymore explanation, have fun running over people cause you haven't been told not to.
@Brian McGee: Your original statement is not true, and you have admitted it. no need for further explanation
I think cars/vans/trucks should be more considerate of a bus. busses carry lots of people.
Yesterday I saw a cyclist knock a person down. Both are okay but the cyclist rang their bell.
Cyclist must give way.
Anyone that thinks oh I rang my bell so if they don't move I'm in the right is an (profanity).
Don’t know why you got negged. The cyclist must give way. The pedestrian is under no obligation to move.
funny how there is a 1 metre rule for vehicles to clear cyclists, but cyclists give less for pedestrians
roads are probably less occupied with vehicles anyway, why not cycle there?
.
And this is why Australia's uptake of cycling is so low.
Because of attitudes like this.
Forcing cyclists onto roads is fine - however roads here haven't really been designed for cyclists in mind and the cars don't want them there as governments are just following the cultural demand that is to build infrastructure for cars and cars alone. I've seen multiple (2) fatalities where trucks have run over cyclists being forced onto roads due to lack of adequate path space.
Paths are seen as pedestrian infrastructure so in many cases cyclists aren't meant to be on them either.
Leaves them with dedicated bike paths which are few and far between.
Why the downvotes? Sydney, at least, has terrible cycling infrastructure. It’s getting better, but it’s all just patchwork of random shared cycle ways.
Forcing cyclists onto roads is fine - however roads here haven't really been designed for cyclists in mind and the cars don't want them there as governments are just following the cultural demand that is to build infrastructure for cars and cars alone.
I don't really agree (as someone who used to cycle every day).
The loudest cyclists, and the ones who are most "annoying" to other road users are cyclists who want to pretend like they're in the Tour de France, zipping down highways with cars that are going at 80km/h.
There's a huge difference between people who cycle as a means of transport and people who cycle as a hobby. In my experience, it's always the latter who seem to cause problems - we all know the types, dressed in lycra, expensive bike parked outside of a cafe…etc.
In most countries where cycling is popular, it's just viewed as a means of transport to get from A to B, not as a cult-like religion where it becomes a central part of one's identity.
I've never worn lycra in my life. I just want to get to uni without paying the bus fair. but I absolutely 100% will not cycle on the road outside of a little suburban side street with no traffic. if it was illegal to cycle on the footpath and actually enforced, i'd stop cycling to uni and catch the bus.
most cycling lanes are just there for cars to park in.
It's not really that funny. A 1000kg car going at 60km/hr does a shitload more damage to a person than a 100kg bike going at 30km/hr.
not necessarily both can still kill and it really doesn't matter if you have one broken bone or 20 dead is still dead
True, but your what-aboutism should not be used as an excuse for a cyclist to hit someone even at 10km/h, it is like saying sure the bomb will blow you to smithereens compared to being killed by automatic rifle where in both cases person is dead.
Math is fairly simple:
Pedestrian at 75kg walking at 4km/h pace their energy at impact with an obstacle 75x(4x4)/2 = 600 (ignore the units - I want to demonstrate the ratios)
Let say car weighs 1600kg including driver, energy at impact would be 1600x(100x100)/2 = 8,000,000
Bicycle with rider 85kg, riding at 30km/h, their energy at impact 85x(30x30)/2 = 38,250
Bicycle with rider 85kg, riding at 10km/h, their energy at impact 85x(10x10)/2 = 4,250
So as you can see car at 100km/h will definitely kill a pedestrian exerting 13 thousand times more energy on a pedestrian then if pedestrian collided with another walking person, but cyclist impact at 30km/h with ~64 times more energy exerted can also kill, and even at 7 times the force (at 10km/h) can seriously injure a person.
And for completeness, a 1000kg car going at 60km/h:
1000x(60x60)/2 = 1,800,000, three thousand times more impact energy than pedestrian
do many cyclists who can manage to get to 30km/h weigh 85kg?
@sarahlump: @sarahlump I believe it is reasonable to assume that average male weight is 75kg, add bike weight on top of that and I don't thin that my estimate about 85kg is grossly incorrect.
What you missed is not so much that rider weight is the problem here, it is the speed. Even for the case of 60kg rider (including bike) at 30km/h the impact may easily be fatal for pedestrian being 45 higher than pedestrian to pedestrian collision. Even bike going at 10km/h is equivalent of colliding with 500kg person.
@dr: thats a reasonable assumption. I don't think they're gonna be going 30ks on a footpath though. most footpaths are barely better than a dirt path and with cars pulling out of their driveways its a death wish :P
but I understand what you're saying.
I could see this happening though especially at a bus stop. usually you can't see if there's anybody there and you've got to basically stop and I see a lot of other cyclists speed past them.
It's called a Footpath for a reason, otherwise, it would be called a Cyclepath.
Cyclists seem to think they can have their own set of rules on both the roads and footpaths.
Wheels are like feet for bicycles though.
you are being facetious, right?
No, he just walks barefoot everywhere (check user name)
Definitely not but by your logic there should be a cyclepath as well which doesn’t make sense. It can be dangerous on the road so hence why cyclists ride on the path. So what about scooters or skaters, do a specific path for them too as they aren’t on foot?
If it's a footpath it's obviously the pedestrian's (its in the name) however this naturally would still be situation dependent such as walking straight into the path of someone.
However you do get shared paths as well as cycle paths.
Almost all cycle paths are considered shared paths, unless they've duplicated them in order to avoid the exact issue you've outlined.
Yes it's the responsibility of the cyclist to move around the pedestrians safely, however due to unpredictability of pedestrians and dogs etc this is never full proof.
I do recall the time when a guy was riding a scooter on a footpath and a lady got off a bus and walked directly into his path without looking.
He got sent to jail for 8 months
Unfortunately the law will almost always side with the pedestrian no matter how ignorant their actions are.
Cyclists are victimised no matter where they ride unfortunately, media doesn't help though.
Uhhh. I read the article on that scooter/bus accident and it seems pretty clear the scooter was at fault.
You make it sound like person coming off bus was at fault but it's incredibly stupid riding right next to a bus/tram etc. Without slowing down/looking out for people. They definitely have right of way. Person ended up with brain damage so scooter wasn't exactly going slow to completely knock them over.
You may be part of the problem based on how you write about poor cyclists being victimised….
Are you even allowed to ride on the footpath in NSW if you're an adult unless it's designated as a shared footpath/bicycle path?