I am looking into buy a used car and prefer to buy a European car namely a Peugeot, Skoda, Volkswagen or Renault.
However a couple of mechanics I have spoken to recently are telling not to buy European cars due to parts and servicing costs, time to get the parts etc. Is that really true?
@Techie4066: eh? Calm down. I didn't down vote your comment. Obviously someone else disagrees with your comment, so maybe direct your anger elsewhere.
Edit. For context, I didn't take my mechanic's advice. I've still owned multiple European cars, BUT I do most of the maintenance myself where possible
@m00c0w: Wasn't saying it was you, sorry for the lack of clarity. Not angry either - it's hilarious how people are so trigger happy with the downvotes here.
Euro mechanics exist in every capital city for every mainstream Euro brand, Renault (sells more cars here than you think), Peugeot and Citroen included. Their sales should be on the up as they've all launched completely new model lineups recently and all have changed management.
It's because I can't afford the cars he suggests in the current market.
These details of which you have omitted in the original post.
For my budget and desired KMs more European cars come in search result than Asian
What's the budget, and what sort of car are you after?
Hence, I wanted know about people's experience with cars of European origin, not just opinion.
In my experience, Japanese cars are far superior in terms of outright reliability and cost of ownership. Hyundai and Kia (most vehicles from both brands share a lot of common underpinnings) have gotten a lot better over time as well. Again, the details will depend on a number of other things, but to be specific more information than what was supplied is needed.
A corolla with 100,000KMs on the odo and an a3 with that number on the odo will be two very different cars to own and maintain.
Some mechanics prefer Asian cars because that's all they people bring to their shops depending on where they live.
Is this what you just tell yourself or do you have some kind of data to back up this ridiculous claim?
A corolla with 100,000KMs on the odo and an a3 with that number on the odo will be two very different cars to own and maintain.
Not necessarily if you consistently get the correct servicing outside of the dealership servicing department. From new, preferably.
Is this what you just tell yourself or do you have some kind of data to back up this ridiculous claim?
I have spoken to a range of mechanics and this is generally the case, people are so familiarised with Japanese/Korean car design it's more difficult to adapt to Euro cars, and many hold false preconceptions about them due to poor past experience. Hence the recommendation to seek brand-specific mechanics which definitely do exist and deserve the money.
i have a feeling there's going to be a " I bought a Mercedes c200 and it costing me a lot of money to maintain. what should i do guys ? " thread
Asian cars are better quality and far superior to the euro trash, brands like SAIC, Geely, and Chery are worth considering
brands like SAIC, Geely, and Chery
I thought you hated exporting labour, Dick?
Cause the colour of the skin of the manufacturer is what matters? Cause Chinese and Japanese are basically the same?? I think the Chinese are as culturally similar to the Japanese as the British are to the Germans. The Japanese culture is a big part of why they make excellent cars.
SAIC and Chery are state-owned companies (CCP).
I drive a 2007 Skoda Octavia 1.8tsi manual. It's been similar in cost to the U13 Nissan Bluebird I owned and a lot more reliable than the Gen2 Subaru Liberty I had.
I rate it as one of the top 5 cars I've owned (of around 40+ cars) in terms of running costs and reliability. The biggest issue as it nears its 14th birthday is that the interior is dissolving due to Australian heat and UV.
I've never had issues getting service parts and they are reasonably priced. $15 for a cabin filter; $15 air filter; $20 oil filter. You just need to know where to look.
Rear brakes lasted 155k km. Fronts still going at 200k+ km. Still on original clutch.
But the confirmation bias is strong… Do you have the car as part of your username…
I had an 08 Skoda Octavia Elegance 2.0tdi. Bought as a demo and kept until 300k - still original clutch. These things were used as taxis in Europe and it was pretty bloody reliable. I did maintain it with the view of keeping it a long time. Only big repair was a new turbo at 220k - at a cost of 2k. I would've avoided the DSG models around this time though.
Long term Skoda owners I've spoken too have been pretty happy with their cars.
European cars are without a doubt more expensive if you can't service it yourself, I bought a MK5 R32 Golf and my friend bought a ex-demo GT86 at the same time 7 years ago. Both are arguably "fun" cars, and cost roughly the same at the time (Golf slightly cheaper $25k vs $28k) and cost around the same to insure.
However, he can take it to any independent mechanic and can get it serviced for less than $400 for a minor and maybe $800 for a major, while mine will cost around $800 minimum to $2k+ for a major at a specialist place (no one else can do the DSG or haldex services). Not to mention the god damn issues these plastic plagued euros have, the thermostat housing for instance is plastic and will eventually crack no matter what you do due to heat fatigue, and will cost you at least $600 to replace at a mechanics. At which point you may as well replace the surrounding plastic parts or else they will fail right after anyway easily racking up $1.5k in preventative maintenance. Or the $700+labour plastic fuel pump assembly that will rot itself out after 10 years even if the pump itself is fine.
I'm quite lucky to have my own garage and space to safely service everything myself, and invested around $1k in the right tools and manuals to do it right myself, I'm just about beating my friend in terms of $$$ spent over the years if you consider part cost alone on the euro. So if you can sacrifice a weekend every so often and you think you're up to the task of doing everything yourself, then its definitely is worth the effort because of how fun and nice euros can be for the price. But would I recommend it to anyone else? No, unless they're a grease monkey like myself.
There are weekends where I'm covered in grease, brake dust, blood and sweat stuck under the car wondering what I was thinking, and this is coming from someone that likes working on cars. There's a reason why used euros are some of the most neglected vehicles on the road, they're outrageously expensive once the warranty fades.
If you’re paying $800+ for a minor service of a Golf, you are being taken to the cleaners.
I’d look for another specialist if I were you.
Dsg and haldex services are easy. Will.be interesting to see coat difference when it comes to spark plug replacement time 😂.
$800 for a minor on a Golf R? Is that with or without foreplay?
I can do Haldex and DSG on stands in my carport.
How about you get a quote for spark plugs on a GT86.
R32, it is the VR6
Still shouldn't be $800 for a minor. There's nothing in a minor. It's the 60k and 105k that usually hurt
"There are weekends where I'm covered in grease, brake dust, blood and sweat stuck under the car wondering what I was thinking, and this is coming from someone that likes working on cars"
Ha, couldn't have said it better myself!
I felt this, cos I've been every step of the way with my mate's MK6 Golf GTI and he finally got rid of it a few months ago. It was such a pain to have.
I've got a Skoda, never had a problem with parts. I think they share a lot with VW and Audi so plenty of spare bits around. I did have a Peugeot and that was a bit pricier
Just buy a tesla
Basic service for a jap car: $250
Basic service for a small euro car: $700
Complete rubbish. That's Euro luxury SUV pricing where no one cares about the price to begin with!
Servicing my Renault SUV at the dealership never exceeds $399, but I take it to the local Renault specialist who does a far better job for $300.
Thank you for your incorrect opinion.
$700 comes from personal experience of owing a new Volkswagen polo, certainly not luxury by any standard.
Volkswagen 🤣
My experience + Renault capped price servicing = Incorrect? This is one of the brands OP is considering.
You got scammed, and VW Australia customer service sucks. Sorry for your pain. You should've looked for a VW or VAG mechanic.
$700 comes from personal experience of owing a new Volkswagen polo,
How exactly was $700 for a basic service on a polo justified? When I was an auto mechanic, that would have been a $220-250 service.
@brendanm: They didn't shop around (or look at the servicing schedule prior to purchase) and it was probably under-the-table overcharging by the technician or service manager. I say that because the VW website states $399 for fifth gen DSG/manual or $389 for diesel, and $357 for all sixth gens. $378/$396 for the respective generations of the Polo GTI. Of course the consumables done every second service, namely the air filter and brake fluid, add extra cost, but nowhere near $700. And this is at the stealership! Sounds like DiscoJango has some other agenda.
Does OzB suffer some kind of amnesia when it comes to servicing their own boring Japanese cars? The Mazda2 is barely $50, and barely $75 on the off year, more affordable to service!
Of course OzB will blindly upvote stuff that suits their confirmation bias without doing the simple prerequisite research!!!!
@Techie4066: I don't actually care that much to be honest, people buy whatever they are comfortable with, just amuses me that people think it costs more to service a VW which is common as muck, for some unknown reason.
@brendanm: Thats what VW wanted, even third party mechanics charged more. An oil change is an oil change, but some reason VW want to charge an arm and a leg.
The long term quality compared to Jap cars just isnt there. Euro cars tend to push new untested tech which can be unreliable. Jap cars may seem bland and boring, however taking the safe route means a car that will last many, many years.
@DiscoJango: You were just being blatantly ripped off. Oil and filter cost is the same as anything else, and so is the amount of time taken for the service.
I'm aware of the differences, I was an automotive mechanic for quite a while, and have owned many different cars, Australian, jap, euro etc. Have had a couple of vw diesels with 300k+ now, no issues. Currently have 2 vw diesels.
VW Capped price service on a Polo GTI is $396.
I'm not sure about VW but Skoda sell service packs and they make it even cheaper,
@brad1-8tsi: This was a few years ago, before all these new competitive 7 yr unlimited km warranties.
I personally just have more peace of mind with jap than euro. I had mk6 golf r at one stage, was nearly out of warranty, the constant fear that if the dsg goes i would be up for a massive repair bill led to me selling it, just wasnt worth the risk imo.
@DiscoJango: DSG on a Mk6 were well sorted. It wouldn't concern me beyond changing the oil 1 service earlier.
@brad1-8tsi: This, not really any issues with the wet clutch boxes. The dry clutch on the other hand, rubbish.
Whatever you do, do not buy a used Mercedes, speaking from very painful experience.
Most peeps buy a merc or audi, as cheap as they can get without reliability logic applied. Neg me but let me explain. For instance C180 and C200 were built not in Germany, hence the quality is very questionable. Some new models are the same. However if you go with C250, C300, AMG they are all built in Germany. I had Audi's built in Germany (a4, a6) and spent money on services and parts that are normally used ( break pads). Q3 was a good reliable car a few years ago. However Q5 and Q7 have bad feedbacks. Why on earth one would buy Q7 based on good Q3 rating? I had C280 2007 in 2014-2015 (2years) - spent money only for services. Later i liked the facelift of the next model and upgraded interior , hence got 2011 C250 twin-turbo in 2016. I serviced it, changed tyres and front wheel speed sensors only. I reckon it is not too bad for 5 years. I am not saying Germans are the large sproong door technic over Japanese. The point here is within the brand the built quality is different for some models. You might be surprise to find Merc in the second place in 2020 reliability rating. I dont think it is applicable for non in Germany built A200 or C200…. : https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/reliability/
I think all the C class are made in South Africa now.
I had a 2010 C250 that was manufactured in Germany, bought in 2015, died on me just before covid, cost close to 7 grand to fix, that was just after I had the tyres/wipers/battery etc replaced. I always had it serviced on schedule at Mercedes dealership, always put BP 98, and only drove about 10000 km per year. It worked to be close to 10 grand a year to run and maintain including depreciation. Oh, it also had another annoying problem that was never fixed, the passenger seat belt warning light would intermittently come on as if someone was sitting on it, every time I went to get the pink slip I would pray that it would not happen during inspection. Anyway, I am a BMW owner now.
Btw, that was my second Merc. When I have a bit more time I will write about the horror story I had with the first one.
That is awesome share. Thanks. As i mentioned i have C250 2011. Should not be a large difference. I is the same car accept the face lift. Would you mind to share PM or here what went wrong with the 2010 C250? Why such a high costs to repair? I had 2001 320 BMW (south African) , 2003 325 4 doors and then 2007 coupe 325 . All of them have some leaks developed at certain time frame. Power steering, Suspension or engine oil sipping. However current model are much better quality. Mu gf drives X3 2.0 Diesel and she never had a problem since 2015- she bought it new tho.
Yes and generally less reliable too.
Yes, but not to the degree that the average OzBargain thread on this topic will have you believe.
Cam Ree
Yes, parts are more expensive (but not by very much, if you buy OEM instead of genuine).
Things tend to be more complex and more work to service, which makes mechanical upkeep more expensive.
If you like to do mechanical repairs yourself, used Euro car is a better deal than Japanese IMO.
You can buy a nicer car for less money, and still keep things maintained without going over budget.
There are a few exceptions; some particular cars are just lemons and will suck your wallet dry. Do your research.
If you get all your maintenance done at a mechanic, it will cost you a lot more than a Japanese car.
I've always fancied an European car. They seem to be more solidly built and always seem to be far sexier and more timeless in general.
Having owned both a Citroen and BMW mini recently, avoid euro cars please unless you have the disposable income.
Citroen/Peugeot is definitely a world away in terms of access to servicing/parts and running costs compared to Renault in Australia, due to far lower adoption in the market. Renault sells more affordable cars and shares some parts with Nissan and has a parts warehouse in Melbourne. There are also more mechanics that work on Renaults due to the Renault Sport influence. From my experience, servicing at those local mechanics undercuts past servicing fees at Mazda dealerships.
A lot of Holden's in past have been rebadged European cars too, (and no these generally aren't that much expensive to maintain compared to an average car outside). Personally got a few in family all made in Europe.
However yes certainly the companies you mentioned, Peugeot, Volkswagen, bmw, etc are all going to be a bit more on expensive end to maintain.
Cars are like women. Both are expensive to maintain.
Treasurer Joe Hockey has advised Australians wanting to buy their first home to "get a good job that pays good money".
Same advice applies here.
So,I am guessing by the nature of this discussion,that is a ‘emphatic’ no?Thought so,I’m off to buy a ‘ZIL’!
If you buy a European car, make sure you budget for a divorce from your wife also. I'm dead serious.
Kia owner: We can't give you a headlight repl under warranty because they cost $1800!
Wanna save money: Buy a Corolla. Have more money: Buy a Carmry!
My last Subaru needed 6 monthly services, that was a killer.
I just saw this launched - Skoda are including 7 years warranty and road side assistance with their 7 year service pack - That's pretty wild at $2400 for a Karoq (Wife and I looking at buying a Karoq).
If you are after a used car I would buy something that is Japanese like Nissan or Toyota etc.
Nissan's especially ones after 2005 s are sh*t boxes mostly
They did cut costs a lot after almost going under prior to Renault investment, but excluding the CVTs, they're not bad for the price. The new generations that are launching in Europe such as the Qashqai are doing away with the CVT for Renault DCTs and turbocharged small capacity direct injection petrol engines.
I have not come across a DCT that didn't cost a fortune to replace worn clutches, but almost all manufacturers don't bother replacing parts in them, only whole units, which = $$$
They are for exotic cars and sports cars only, not your everyday commuter who wants sometilhing reliable and is cheaper to repair/replace.
There are more negatives than positives for DCTs, that's just the truth. They don't care about the consumer at the end who's gotta pull out wads of cash to fix anything.
Just replaced a five year old Fiat with a brand new Mitsubishi coming with ten years of warranty and fixed service costs. The Fiat was fun to drive but out of warranty after three years and apparently due for a timing belt at 4 years / 60,000kms. Ridiculous. Sad to see it go but could see too many expenses on the horizon.
Unfortunately Fiat flushed quality and care down the drain under Chrysler ownership. Things should improve under the recent Stellantis merger.
I got my mum a cheap used Fiat 500 about 5 years ago. Thing has been absolutely bulletproof, and she hasn't nessecarily been treating it well.
She loves it and gets tonnes of compliments in the little country town outside of Adelaide she lives in. Some euro cars, especially Italian/French/Nordic cars definitely have a lot more uniqueness and personality to them. You just got to be very particular with the specific makes and models you choose. Especially when it comes to engines and transmissions. I think they are great cars, but I would not recommend them to non-enthusiasts
The Fiat 500 is another great, fun and stylish car and very reliable. Would love an Abarth version.
Sister in law wanted a car said she was looking at a 10 year old Volkswagen passat with full service history etc. Told her not to do it, mechanic told her to consider something else. She went and got it. Died a year and half later and sold it off for less than half what she paid
to cover repairs. She's looking at another 8 year old Passat 😂.
Old VWs are a waste of time especially if you service at the stealerships, newer ones are par for the course for reliability according to reliability surveys.
Think we can't throw all European cars in the same bucket.
When it comes to parts, just look how many there are on the road.
Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda all share parts within and across their range,
so there are plenty around, incl. a good selection of OEM parts.
Peugeot, Renault you see less here in AU.
So it would be logically that you see less parts at automotive suppliers, as its unprofitable
to stock them and therefore harder/more expensive to get them.
If you buy an overpriced Mini, they know you are a sucker and charge you for the parts accordingly :)
yes - see first comment
I was interested in splashing some cash on a Merc 250 after enjoying the quiet comfort ride in one
until I test drove a used one - and it was a bumpy uncomfortable bag of nails
then I saw Scotty saying Mercs are overengineered - e.g. unlike Jap disc brake pads which would wear evenly across the surface, Merc pads wore a groove inside, so when you needed new brake pads, instead of just replacing the pads like most Jap cars for ?$400, you'd have to also replace the discs for more like $4000
a sample of his many - 'Here's Why Broke People Buy Mercedes and Rich People Buy Cheap Cars' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwVxpSs3Kyo
When I was looking got a vehicle. I check fixed price servicing schedule for similar cars (Kia and VW) . VW was a lot more expensive
Such a can of worms here. The answer is probably yes but with a load of caveats. IF you go to a mechanic, buy all your parts from them and get them to do all of the work then yes it is probably more expensive. If (and you are asking on OzBargain after all) you are OK to buy parts from a wreckers, use a youtube video on your phone and have a go at fixing some stuff yourself then its possibly a line ball. I'm not suggesting for a second that you can switch out a Porsche engine using a youtube video or that it would be the same price as a Corolla etc but in general, like for like, 10 year old car, spare parts over the internet, Ozbargain mentality, basic mechanical aptitude I dont think its wildly different. I've been to the Pick a part wreckers with a set of spanners looking for parts to strip off wrecks, they didn't charge more for the parts off the euro wrecks. Pretty sure if you went to the Volvo dealer for a service vs the Mitsubishi dealer for a service and just decided you weren't good with cars so you'll just pay their apprentices to change your oil the Mitsu would probably be cheaper.
A Euro econobox is nothing special and you would get a similar driving experience from an Asian marque for substantially less total cost of ownership. Of course, the main reason people buy a Euro economy car is the badge. Paying Euro prices for parts/labour for an average motor car doesn't sound smart to me.
Once you start going up the higher end models, the Euro badges (especially the Germans) have an undeniably superior driving experience. Anyone who appreciates driving will agree that a Bimmer or Benz from the M or AMG lines are spectacular on the road. The caveat with these is they cost an absolute bomb to maintain past warranty. Gotta pay to play.
What's a higher end car that's pretty good for maintenance/reliability that isn't a lexus? Genesis?
Subaru ??
Lexus is the pick. Go to any developing Central Asian nation and all you will see are Lexus LX and RX as the luxury cars of choice for the sensible individual. The super rich get around in AMG G-wagens of course.
If you specifically want to avoid Lexus, I guess it would be Infiniti (now defunct here), or stick with a high-trim Landcruiser.
Yes. Mum's BMW servicing costs at the dealership is significantly more expensive than Dad's Prado, and my Prado, and our previous other Japanese cars, Jazz, Camry, CRV, etc
According to my mechanic friends, a lot is due to the parts and shipping costs to Australia, the slightly pricier software to read codes, and how the engine bay is placed about. Space generally is an issue depending on the model and it can be difficult to do the most mundane things because of how they're placed together.
Friend just recovered from a financially painful experience with his Golf GTI Mk5.
Sure you can reduce costs by finding a specialist but averaging out service costs is difficult this way to gauge an industry average, so best to use the dealership costs since they're supposed to be more consistent.
Yes. Significant difference.
Well, not Subaru though.. Boxer engine is shit to maintain
Not sure why you are getting negged for this comment. Boxer engine design has many disadvantages with very limited upside. The cool sounding exhaust note is probably its best feature.
I work for the leading roadside assistance company in nsw. Euro cars are what keeps us in business. If you don't want a headache choose a Jap or Korean.
Haha i would imagine road side assist to be a booming industry in Europe, but not so much in japan!
Second highest road toll per capita is in Japan. I dkwtf they're doing over there to have such a bad death rate from vehicles.
Yep, you'll probably regret an obscure euro car! I had a Renault for a few months. It was a money pit. Worst part is, so hard to figure out how to do anything yourself, hard to get parts, mechanics dont even know how to work on them properly/diagnose things. You have to go to renault themselves. Then their dealer network is awful. Huge waits to get your car fixed.
I got a Toyota, never looking back.
You have to go to renault themselves.
You didn't look far did you.
Google: "french/Renault car servicing [city]"
There's highly reputable mechanics out there. How long ago was this, and what model? Most aren't obscure.
if you go to the mechanic/dealer - yes
if you work on it yourself - not much difference
At least you aren't considering English cars or I would have let you know if you buy a range rover - get two of them. One for spare parts.
check out scotty kilmer on youtube, he says European cars are like money pit.
Happy to be proven wrong.
Objectively yes and assume using independent workshops for repairs, marquee brands are a fair bit higher e.g BMW, Merc, Audi etc… this is attributed to high part cost (even non oem) and labour costs as euros seem to put parts in inconvenient locations so time taken to service is higher.
Volkswagen I found is more reasonable as it’s basically a Corolla in Europe.
Ideally if you buy an euro you would want a corporate package (if eligible) or fixed servicing costs over the first few years of ownership.
Essentially you are buying an euro car for “lifestyle” not as “best value for money”.
The normal people with an average IQ should know the answer !
Definitely. My last two cars were a significantly modified Subaru Liberty and a BMW 3 series. The former needed a fair bit of TLC, but was never all that expensive to fix/improve. The latter is ok for regular servicing but the second anything breaks it is stupidly expensive to fix. For example, I had a minor issue with a tail light and the only way to fix it was to replace the whole tail light assembly, which cost something silly like $600.
And then my partner's Toyota always cost a tiny fraction of what either car cost to maintain and was vastly more reliable, too.
Yes generally speaking it is more. The only viable maker on the list you provided is VW or Skoda (Skoda is a vw subsidiary)
The Renault, Peugeot Skoda lose value very fast and the French ones have lots of issues. The parts for these are hard to get yet. VW parts are much easier to get. If you rely on mechanics here in oz to supply the parts they will just go via their regular suppliers and it will be very expensive. Source yourself you’ll have better luck
Case in point, PLC valve for 2.0L engines. Local “euro” Mechanic wanted about $900 for the job.
Part from Audi direct, easy enough DIY install $235
the French ones have lots of issues
🤦♂️ far out people. French cars are most certainly not overengineered luxury German cars, and Renaults are practically Nissans underneath. They've changed from the brands you knew 2 decades ago!
I just learnt this, yes. My wife has a BMW X3 and it had to go to BMW to get some engine work done (glow plug related) because the mechanic we take it too couldn't fix it without "BMW Software".
The cost was $2,800 parts and labour. We have had the car 5 years and this has been the most expensive cost we have had. Every other time it has been servicing and some other costs that the mechanic could fix.
The car has a stone chip in the front sensor and we got quoted over $500 just to get that fix (and that was just for the part!).
I have a holden commodore and it had a lot more work done and it has been cheaper. I have had the car 10 years.
Ouch. Best find a good independent! All the general mechanics near me have been useless, but a good Euro car specialist will have the right tools and experience, and still be much cheaper than the stealership.
Mercedes cars from 2020 onwards comes with 5 years warranty. This is what convinced me to pull the trigger on the purchase compared to BMW. Plan to sell it after 5 years anyway.
Asia is a very large continent and it produces all sorts of things from absolute garbage of cars (great wall, geley) to top quality quality ones (Toyota, Subaru). Be clear with what you want.
I own a reanult Megane GT , Renault Kangoo van and a Peugeot 3008 , they are all very reliable , I do although keep the servicing up to date , and in some circumstances I over service , the Megane GT is full of Nissan branded parts , I've don't 40k in the Megane , no problems at all , the van I purchased used from pickles I've put 30k on that , no problems at all, the Peugeot I purchased as a demo, I've put 35k on that with no problems , up until the French car frenzy I had always owned Japanese , Korean cars , I feel it's all about research and due diligence, and of course servicing on time . I would not although buy a European car with high used kilometres.
I own a 2015 Volkswagen golf - manual. Just got it serviced at the dealership only two weeks ago for $252. Mind you this is what was invoiced to VW as I purchased a 4 year servicing plan upfront. Prior to this I have been taking it to a independent mechanic who has been charging ~$230. No issues with the car whatsoever with 70k kms.
My last car was a 2015 Golf VW GTI MK7 (German made)…. as per log book service required once a year was only $370, however my latest car is a Kluger 2013 (japanese made) requires two log book services pear year at $320 each. So my japanese Kluger costing me much more per year. Both cars run beautifully so no repairs done to compare.
Not if you buy a Renault or VW that doesn't have the fancy stuff that will inevitably fail and cost you a fortune.
Also modern cars don't typically have those kind of gremlins.
LOL insta-downvoted for speaking the truth. How about you own one before talking smack?