Tore My Awning and Roof Rails from My RAV4 While Exiting Car Park. What Are My Options?

Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 14:51
Last edited 18/10/2021 - 15:32

I drove our SUV into an underground car park.
Going in I was going very slowly - about 5kmh (as I noticed the 1.8m clearance sign and steel bars to protect the ceiling)and it went through just fine. 45min later I returned to the car and proceeded to another exit where the clearance was 1.9m. that exit however was chained off. I went back the way I came in from at about 10kmh(going out that exit didn't have a notice for height) and that's where the awning came in contact with the steel protector and it tore of my roof rails (they basically broke) and my awning. The awning is salvageable but not the roof rails or roof rack.
Looking at at exit now from outside, there is a bit of an angle so there's less height in the exit lane than in entry lane. Measured the height in exit lane and it comes to 1.9m.

Bit of a grey zone in my opinion. Using my usual exit I would have been fine, and at the exit lane I was forced to use the height was less than the height of my usual entry lane.
Thoughts? Options?

Diagram here:
https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/301739/91776/woolies-u…

A: entered the carpark - no issues
B: parked - later reversed out and proceeded to C
C: Exit chained off - had to reverse and return the way I came
D: the clearance in the exit lane is less than in the entry lane

Automotive Car SUV Toyota

Comments

                • Hangryuman on 24/11/2021 - 08:01

                  @SirCH: 'You can't beat stupid'

                  you just need a bigger stick

                  reminds me of a US tour bus in California - the local guide saying 'in the US we ignore all signs!'

                  viz Homer Simpson …

          • Zondor on 19/10/2021 - 15:03

            @Powlie85: Can you give me whatever you're on I want some.

      • Brick Tamland on 19/10/2021 - 18:01
        +1

        Have you tried saying this out loud to yourself?

    • Subada on 19/10/2021 - 13:58

      The car probably isn't higher than 1.9m. When you drive along a ramp and the gradient of the ramp changes, you car will be higher off the ramp through that transition due to its wheel base sitting on two different slopes.

      Same thing happens in reverse when you go over a speed hump and scrape the front of your porsche.

  • Tee Rex Arms on 18/10/2021 - 15:48

    What’s your excess for when you’re resigned to make an at fault claim due to, you know, being at fault.

    • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 20:05

      Won't be claiming, as the rack and rails were about $425 all together and I mounted the parts myself.

  • battler on 18/10/2021 - 15:51
    +5

    sounds like you might have had similar issue as me…. although I stopped and backed out before connecting - much to the pain of 2 other cars behind me.
    clearance bar correctly measured height from ground up, but failed to consider the effect of slope of driveway.
    https://imgur.com/a/8iZRSUa

    Contact centre management.

    • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 16:34

      Thanks mate. Yeah good point in that.

      • Powlie85 on 19/10/2021 - 21:09
        -1

        That people negging even comments like that 🤣

  • Muzeeb on 18/10/2021 - 15:51
    +1

    Why do cars drive around with awnings permanently attached? Sure it must add drag and additional wind noise (whistling).

    How hard are they to remove and reattach for your next camp out?

    • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 15:55
      +1

      I use it every other weekend. Even during lockdown I managed to get use out of it. Not for camping trips but as shelter after/before exercising.

      • Muzeeb on 18/10/2021 - 15:55
        -1

        How long would it take to remove and reinstall?

        • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 15:56

          I locked the nuts with locktite so that it'll be hard for anyone to steal it. But without that 20mins perhaps.

          • Muzeeb on 18/10/2021 - 15:58
            -2

            @Powlie85: So if the awning was off would this event have happened?

            • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 15:59

              @Muzeeb: Nope. That's what ultimately touched the guard rails :/

              • Muzeeb on 18/10/2021 - 16:02
                +3

                @Powlie85: Dang. Just remove in the future. 20 minutes of lazy time just cost you a bomb.

                Also, loctite is a shit anti theft solution. It's to stop bolts loosening from vibration. It someone wants to steal your awning loctite any gunna do squat.

                • jorf on 18/10/2021 - 16:30
                  +23

                  @Muzeeb: Especially when they can just pick it up off the road near a carpark exit.

                • dassaur on 19/10/2021 - 09:18

                  @Muzeeb: Depends on what loctite. Some can only be undone with heat eg loctite 290

                  • Muzeeb on 19/10/2021 - 09:22
                    +3

                    @dassaur: I'll guarantee with my left testicle that op didn't use 290

        • AustriaBargain on 19/10/2021 - 20:13
          +1

          Only takes a few seconds to remove at his local Woolies carpark.

    • gr70 on 19/10/2021 - 09:16

      My awning weighs 27kg, the car is quite high so I have to climb on the roof to attach it. Once its on it easier to leave it there is I might want to use it anytime soon. The time I take it off will be the time I want to use it next week. Its a tough job (for one person at least - If you have a wife that happily assists in this sort of thing then hold onto her). At the shop 2 men do it with electric wrenches and even they take 15 mins working together

      • resisting the urge on 19/10/2021 - 10:50
        +1

        Best to be practical about things in life.

        However are you weighing all the drawbacks?

        • Sun damage to awning over time
        • Minor increases in fuel and maintenance
        • Chance of being damaged
        • Chance of being stolen
        • Higher centre of gravity, causing lopsided handling and terrible dynamics in a swerve ([email protected] from CoG at say 90% braking & steering force would result in many 1000s of newtons pulling hard to roll an SUV that is already likely to want to roll in many such situations.

        I count you lucky, the worst outcome was certainly not the one you suffered, even if the whole roof is bent!

  • djones145 on 18/10/2021 - 15:59

    maybe you can go to the car park
    prove that the sign was incorrect and that 1.9m was not 1.9m and was say 1.7m and that cause the roof rack to be taken off

    • lordsnipe on 18/10/2021 - 16:03
      +8

      Except the sign said 1.8m, and the car was 1.9+m before getting slightly lopped off.

  • pegaxs on 18/10/2021 - 16:21
    +2

    OzBargain… the gift that keeps on giving.

    What are you actually seeking here? Some confirmation bias that tells you that the shopping centre is at fault?

    • Subada on 19/10/2021 - 14:00

      There is a slim chance that the shopping centre is at fault. Check my other posts.

    • Powlie85 on 19/10/2021 - 21:12

      I've got what I needed. The explanation about wheelbase and slopes, the confirmation that this happens to other people, lots of laughs at some of the pathetic comments and negs - in short - some ozbargain automotive fun!

  • pharkurnell on 18/10/2021 - 16:27
    +2

    Bit of a grey zone in my opinion.

    How?

  • bdl on 18/10/2021 - 16:32

    Buy a Jeep :)

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 18/10/2021 - 17:12
    +2

    So in summary, your Honour.. '“it's the vibe of it. It's the Constitution. It's Mabo. It's justice. It's law. It's the vibe and ah, no that's it. It's the vibe. I rest my case."

    …and also some posters at ozbargain agreed with me!

  • dmbminaret on 18/10/2021 - 17:15
    +2

    Bit of a grey zone in my opinion.

    Not grey. Red or black maybe.

    I'm pretty sure those signs are there to display at what height the water pipes or electrical and data drop down to from the roof. I believe the clearance on the entry is a little lower as a warning sign to say "If you touch me, you will definitely do some damage inside, so back out now!"

    The fact that you made it in means you were not going to do damage to their infrastructure.

    The fact that you didn't make it out means nothing besides you're a bad gambler.

  • Hardlyworkin on 18/10/2021 - 17:26
    +7

    You sure it wasn't actually the Montague Street bridge?

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 18/10/2021 - 17:35

      what's the longest that place has gone without a height related incident?

  • Baysew on 18/10/2021 - 17:26
    +4

    Which reminds me -

  • Euphemistic on 18/10/2021 - 17:30

    can you enter at the 1.9m and then exit t the other? That would seem like a stupid design, unless there is a 1.8m sign somewhere between the two.

    If you can enter via 1.9m and the exit via the other without signage you may be able to get some compensation.

    • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 17:32

      That's my point. While I didn't do that, that's entirely possible. As a matter of fact I parked next to a Hilux that was higher than my vehicle.

      • franco cozzo on 18/10/2021 - 17:50
        +3

        you should have waited until they left and followed them then

      • derrida derider on 19/10/2021 - 11:45
        +1

        Sure it's a stupid design, but bad design is not exactly rare.

        And it doesn't change the fact that you stuffed up too, and that the Terms and Conditions for the car park entry will absolve them of all legal liability. You could try hassling them to get a "go away" payment, but it may not work and it means hassle and expense for you too.

        Be philosophical about it - a new roof rack is very cheap compared with the cost of many other life lessons.

        • Slippery Fish on 20/10/2021 - 07:06
          +1

          Stating you are not liable is not the same as not being liable

  • FLICKIT on 18/10/2021 - 17:47
    +1

    I'd be inclined to own it, learn from it, and move on, shit happens…

    I have a Hiace Commuter campervan, 2215mm +85mm for skylight/vent/solar panels, about 2300mm total height, I wont go under anything unless it's 2.4m or more, even at 2.4m more often than not I wont enter, it's just not worth the grief… (or the embarrassment of getting wedged)

    There's a good reason truck, van, and campervan rental insurance generally doesn't cover any overhead damage…

    • gr70 on 19/10/2021 - 09:09

      Do you find it difficult to find a park in the CBD (and airports) - I’ve even googled looking for a website that lists car parks over 2.1m but couldnt find one. I would pay for an app that gave me this info

      • FLICKIT on 19/10/2021 - 11:06
        +3

        I rarely drive the campervan around the big cities (I usually leave it in the caravan park and use public transport) but when I have to I do research via google maps & streetview to find supermarkets which have an open air carpark…

        When I was in Sydney a couple of years ago I found a website that listed the height limits for most carparks, I cant find it now…

    • Mechz on 19/10/2021 - 20:59

      But would you Ozbargain it?

      • FLICKIT on 19/10/2021 - 21:02

        I probably wouldn't start a thread about it but I'd post photos and dashcam footage when threads like this come up, lol

  • franco cozzo on 18/10/2021 - 17:48
    -2

    …buy a car that fits the space you intend to drive it through?

    youre welcome.

    • Powlie85 on 18/10/2021 - 17:50

      I go there once a month and use one of the other two exits - which on this occasion was closed.

  • justgooddeals on 18/10/2021 - 20:20
    +9

    Seriously take some personal responsibility the car park had sign telling you that the max height permitted entry was 1.8 metres.

    Your warned. If you then drive/collide into the roof/ceiling of the car park that is 1.8 metres and your RAV 4 has greater height with roof racks -that is not the responsibility of the car park owners.

    What did the car park roof jump down/up and collide with you? No, of course not.

    You may not like the answer. But don’t shoot the messengers. We’re just telling you the bleeding obvious. Even if you don’t want hear it. Or don’t ask if you already know your not gone to like the answer.

    • Euphemistic on 18/10/2021 - 20:26

      Be that as it may, the whole idea of the bars at the entry is to let you know that you can’t fit. If you can fit at the entry, you should be able to fit everywhere else in the complex - unless there are further bars restricting access to a different area.

      • justgooddeals on 18/10/2021 - 20:52
        +3

        Really if sign says 1.8 metres height max clearance permitted entry common sense would lead me to believe the max height permitted entry is 1.8 metres. Even if the sign is hung at 2.4 metres high and entry is possible doesn’t mean elsewhere the roof/ceiling height in the complex may be lower.

        That in fact parts of the car park only have clearance of 1.8 metres from floor to ceiling.

        Your risk if you do.

        • Euphemistic on 18/10/2021 - 21:10
          +2

          So you know how tall your car is? I don’t know mine but it’s tall and somewhere between 40 and 80mm higher than factory.

          They have bars placed at the min height to bang your roof so you know not to go further and damage anything serious. It’s probably a building code thing.

          So, yes, enter at own risk but if you make it under the bar, you are supposed to be good for the rest.

          • D3HUN on 19/10/2021 - 14:14
            +2

            @Euphemistic: Usually, the bars are there to protect the structure of the building (/bridge, etc), as it is easier to replace a steel gate than the reinforced concrete.

  • coxjon on 18/10/2021 - 20:27
    +1

    You burned so much fuel in the car park that your car was riding higher on the way out.

  • photonbuddy on 18/10/2021 - 20:44
    +2

    I think OP has a right to be annoyed … if there was the proper bar across the entry displaying the maximum height.

    This bar should represent the lowest point throughout the car park. I would go back and measure the height of the bar to make sure it is at the correct height.

    Sure, we can all have a bit of laugh at OP, but for me, the owner of the carpark should be setting the bar at the right height, and if a vehicle enters safely under that bar, it is more than reasonable to expect the vehicle will be able to exit.

    Of course, if OP knows how high his car is, and it's higher than the stated maximum height, that throws another level into it.

    • shaybisc on 19/10/2021 - 10:31

      Should also be annoyed that the 1.9m exit was chained off. What's that about? Was it no Hilux day or something?

  • drfuzzy on 18/10/2021 - 21:07
    +1

    You are responsible for paying for any damage you caused to the car park.
    You are responsible for paying for damage to your car.
    What is the question again?

  • bmerigan on 18/10/2021 - 21:35
    +2

    The sign warned you.

  • RSmith on 18/10/2021 - 22:32
    +1

    The one thing that stands out is that the parking spots in the car park are not of uniform width/length…

  • gesco on 19/10/2021 - 06:52

    What is it with "max clearance" signs? I reckon that they should be either "min clearance" or "max height".

  • Haggis Hurler on 19/10/2021 - 07:44

    Forget about the RAV and get a low riding Commodore or Falcon for your Woolies runs.

  • Drumadd on 19/10/2021 - 08:22
    +2

    Can’t believe all this diatribe. Simple, your fault. You pay ……. End of

  • shaybisc on 19/10/2021 - 08:31

    1.8m huh. There must be plenty of big cars higher than that. Prado - 1.845 -1.890. Ford Ranger - 1.85. Hilux - 1.86.

    • derrida derider on 19/10/2021 - 11:53
      +4

      So? If the sign says 1.8m clearance then if you're driving a Prado, Ranger or Hilux you just don't enter. What's so hard about that?

      This is all starting to sound like Melbourne's Montague Street bridge, which is famous for having signs and clearance bars everywhere but is still regularly hit.

      • shaybisc on 19/10/2021 - 13:03

        It doesn't bother me in fact the thought of the big beasts being left out of the car park amuses me.

        Never paid much attention to the height warning. Always been a low rider. Will have to keep my eye out for what the height warning is next time I'm in a car park and if there are Hiluxes and Rangers etc there.

  • shakman on 19/10/2021 - 08:39
    +1

    The difference between going in and out may have been the angle that you have driven in and out and also the angle of the roof.

    However, if you are looking to go legal on the car park owner for the damage to your car and gear, there would be conditions on the parking ticket that you would have received or written somewhere fairly obvious and it would more that probably cover them and say that you are responsible for any damage of your car and they are not responsible…

  • OzHunterNSW on 19/10/2021 - 09:54

    It is negligence on your behalf. What do you expect. Do you know the height of your "extras" placed upon your vehicle?

    Stop blaming the world. Contact your insurer.

  • solidussnake on 19/10/2021 - 09:54
    +2

    You're lucky you didn't hit and damage any plumbing or pipes that would of been interesting

    • gromit on 19/10/2021 - 13:09

      We had a guy where I work forget to take his roof racks off his land cruiser and he drove through two levels of the parking structure before he noticed all the water pouring out behind him from the sprinkler heads he had been knocking off and yes it was signed with a bar for height as well but he was so used to always touching the bar he didn't take notice.

  • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 10:03

    You should lodge a claim with your insurer and take photos of the exit with a lack of signage.

    It's true that car parks generally have a disclaimer but you can't contract out of all laws and they have a duty of care.

    I have successfully argued against them dozens of times and won but if you're with a rubbish insurer, don't expect them to do anything at all to help you since they are clueless.

    • Ughhh on 19/10/2021 - 10:23
      +1

      I have successfully argued against them dozens of times

      You keep hitting ceilings?? Lolol
      A particular common variable is probably the issue at some point.

      • D3HUN on 19/10/2021 - 14:18

        …and we keep wondering why the insurance fees are Skyrocketing… Sure one can be 'savvy' and get the most out of the insurance, but it will be paid for for the rest of the insured people.

        • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 15:28
          +1

          That's not how it works at all. The money is recovered from the car park operator where they have been negligent.

          Also, what are these "insurance fees" you talk about? Why are you paying "insurance fees"?

          • D3HUN on 19/10/2021 - 19:04

            @imurgod: Ok, tell us then, how does it work?

            How would the insurer get the money out of the owner of said parking space if our guy bumped into a stationary object? (which was clearly signposted at the entry)
            (I am talking in case he has comprehensive btw).

            Insurance fee = Insurance premium

            From wiki: Insurance involves pooling funds from many insured entities (known as exposures) to pay for the losses that some may incur. The insured entities are therefore protected from risk for a fee, with the fee being dependent upon the frequency and severity of the event occurring.

            • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 22:28

              @D3HUN: I was under the impression that signage was missing at the exit. My bad.

              You would easily recover from the carpark in that instance.

              You are correct that in this instance the op is at fault.

      • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 15:27

        Not sure how you got there (helps me to understand anti-vaxxers thought process though).

        I have never once had an at-fault accident and certainly never hit a roof. Hard to do in an AMG C63s. You'd have more chance of scraping the bottom.

        • Ughhh on 19/10/2021 - 16:29

          Not sure how you got there (helps me to understand anti-vaxxers thought process though).

          Not sure how anti-vaxxer thought process is related. Interesting considering I am not one. Might want to re-think your correlation and thought process.

          but you can't contract out of all laws and they have a duty of care.

          Which laws are broken?
          What kind of duty of care? WHS primary duty of care? I think you're stretching it.

          I have never once had an at-fault accident

          Dozens of 'not at fault' accidents. You must be extremely unlucky. Good driving skills usually decrease the likelihood of being hit.

          • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 17:14

            @Ughhh:

            Not sure how anti-vaxxer thought process is related. Interesting considering I am not one. Might want to re-think your correlation and thought process.

            You missed the point of my remark. I never said you were anti-vax. Think about it, you'll get there.

            Which laws are broken?
            What kind of duty of care? WHS primary duty of care? I think you're stretching it.

            Where did I say they'd broken any laws?
            Also, you have no idea of what Duty of Care means so how can I even begin to explain how this all works?

            You can't just stick a disclaimer on something and expect that you no longer have a duty of care. Courts don't allow you to contract out of everything.

            I don't know how to make it simpler for you. Maybe look at some education.

            Dozens of 'not at fault' accidents. You must be extremely unlucky. Good driving skills usually decrease the likelihood of being hit.

            Again, where did I say I had dozens of accidents? I've only ever had 2 since I had my licence.

            How are you constantly making such incorrect assumptions? Attention to detail isn't your strength, is it?

    • FLICKIT on 19/10/2021 - 11:15
      +6

      The OP entered under a 1.8m warning sign in a vehicle he knew was higher than that, he says it was "About 6'2" " = 1.88m… The fact he says "about" suggests he doesn't really know the true height, either way he took a gamble with the height warning and paid the price…

      We all need to take responsibility for our choices and actions…

      • imurgod on 19/10/2021 - 15:31

        I may have misunderstood the events then. For some reason I had read it as the height was different and there was some discrepancy with signage.

        In my haste, I shared the fact that carparks' disclaimers don't fully hold up in court.

        In this case, the OP should just claim and pay their excess.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 19/10/2021 - 11:20
    +1

    Your options are:

    1. Buy a new roof rack at your own expense; or
    2. Die mad.
  • gromit on 19/10/2021 - 12:30
    +1

    liability 100% with you, not only for your car but for any damage done to the exit (if any).

  • stumo on 19/10/2021 - 13:09
    +2

    Assuming there are ramps in/out of the carpark, the actual clearance also depends on the wheelbase and shape/relation to the roof and vehicle overhangs.

    For example there are some carparks I can drive into with my LWB van, but I cannot exit out that same ramp without the back of the van roof kicking up and hitting the roof of the carpark. I would have to reverse out of the carpark to ensure the same clearance I had when going in.

  • Gnilgorf on 19/10/2021 - 13:37
    +7

    For the OP, should take this as a lesson learnt and be thankful that no damage was done to any low hanging services in the carpark. Last thing anyone would want is to clip and break through a sewerage pipe and get…well yeah. Next time play it safe and allow for extra clearance.

    This scenario also goes to show that just because you can get in, doesn't mean you can get out, especially where ramps are involved. The slope / angle involved, size / shape of the car etc all come into play. Also realised stumo literally explained this as I was MS painting. So enjoy!
    e.g: https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/151218/91797/rampclear…

    • stumo on 19/10/2021 - 16:33
      +1

      Your mspaint is much better than my ramblings though.

    • Embaloo on 19/10/2021 - 18:59

      I like the car faces.

    • meatgasm on 19/10/2021 - 21:41
      +1

      Thats a GREAT MSpaint diagram :D

    • askbargain on 21/10/2021 - 00:40

      Solution: Reverse out.

  • Subada on 19/10/2021 - 13:48
    +2

    Hey OP, clearance height in a car park needs to take into account the vehicle wheel base as well so a "1.8m" warning bar needs to be more than 1.8m above the ramp if there's a change in ramp grade. Not sure how bothered you are but if you can find construction plans that show the ramp relative to the warning bar or get measurements of the ramp angles then you might find the 1.8m clearance is not actually provided.

    The methodology for checking this is contained in Australian Standard AS/NZS 2890.1-2004 Off-Street Car Parking. As far as I'm aware you need to buy this standard so feel free to PM me if you need advice as I have access to it.

    • Powlie85 on 20/10/2021 - 06:51

      Makes sense mate - thank you. It's and old carpark that's recently been refurbished - but only a lick of paint I'd say. Even just put of interest, I'd love to know how to check this.

  • D3HUN on 19/10/2021 - 14:12

    Sorry to break the news, but….

    Did the steel guard jump suddenly front of you? Or did you drive into a stationary object? If the latter, I'd expect that it would be very very hard to prove that someone else is liable.

    • Heaps for Cheaps on 20/10/2021 - 09:34
      +1

      There was a recent earthquake in Melbourne which was felt up to NSW, so maybe the carpark was affected by the movement of the tektonic plates and that particular section was now significantly lifted.

      In the mean time, best to chase Woolworths as OP may receive a complimentary roast chicken.

      • D3HUN on 20/10/2021 - 11:13
        +1

        Mate, you got me! That is a very plausible reason I couldn't think of. :D :D
        And it would totally worth it for the roast chicken alone!

  • Dr Prepper on 19/10/2021 - 15:03
    +4

    We had an overcompensating lifted ute with all the shovels and shit on the roof come into our underground car park and he burst all the pipes and he ended up flooding the place probably with sewerage. Why do people like to drive around in the tower of babel?

    • Euphemistic on 19/10/2021 - 16:48
      -2

      Probably should have had a bar set at minimum height at the entrance.

    • DarkOz on 20/10/2021 - 11:56
      +1

      We have the same problems to our building. Mostly from drivers who KNEW they were over the height limit as they hit the height bar on the way in. Some even try with a 20 seater mini bus when 200mm over the limit. It’s incredible that they all plead innocent when confronted. Full of entitled “customers” who think they needed to park their car and not give a shit about the damages they would cause.

      We have dented ductings and directional signage getting knocked off the ceiling. The fire sprinkler main pipe got multiple nicks on it. Luckily we only had 1 fire sprinkler burst over the years as a ute with a cross bar hooked it and ripped the pipe off completely.

      The rule is simple. The driver should know the height of their vehicle. If it’s over the displayed height limit then don’t enter.

  • sauce2k6 on 19/10/2021 - 17:24

    get a sticker with the same font and change it from 1.8m to 1.9m then complain

  • OzzyOzbourne on 19/10/2021 - 19:03
    +2

    Op, I think you will have to pay up. It was signed for 1.8m. Whilst your 1.9m car made it through the entrance, there could have been other low hanging pipes etc.

    Not exactly the same, but I did go into an uncovered carpark once (no height restrictions), but the only exit was through a covered section which was too low. Fortunately there was no entrance barrier and I managed to drive out of the entrance.

  • Cyphar on 20/10/2021 - 10:02

    Did you not hit/feel the clearance bar on your way out and stop? For most centres, it's a metal bar that's strung up with chain.

    • Powlie85 on 20/10/2021 - 10:25

      No chain here. The awnings pretty soft so only noticed when it was too late.

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