Can We Talk about The "Give Way" Rule That Buses Have

iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 15:50
Last edited 09/02/2022 - 16:31 by 1 other user

So I am driving down an 80km/hr road. It is a two lane road. Can see a bus at the bus stop in the distance with its hazards lights on. Car in-front of me has the correct spacing as too the car behind me.

As I get closer to the bus, he puts the right indicator on and cuts me right off 😩😩. Luckily for me I managed to brake and avoid someone rear ending me. This is not the first time, I have witnessed a bus driver abuse the give way rule.

Are buses supposed to allow an indicator for couple of seconds at least before pulling out of that lane or are they entitled to pull right out regardless of other road users and claim it is fine?

Any bus drivers/users could explain this to me.

Automotive

Comments

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 15:54
      +4

      righto chap.

      Whats the forum section for if not for discussion.

      • Montyjpm on 09/02/2022 - 15:59
        +8

        You need to Pee that much? Bus indicating to leave the kerb then your foot should be on the brake and not the accelerator.

  • apsilon on 09/02/2022 - 16:01
    +59

    In NSW they're supposed to indicate for 5 seconds before moving. Don't think I've ever seen one actually do it.

      • apsilon on 09/02/2022 - 16:08
        +44

        https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/roads-safety-and-rules/heavy-v…

        "Bus drivers are required to indicate for 5 seconds before pulling out from a stationary position at the side of the road."

      • SF3 on 09/02/2022 - 17:30
        +3

        No such requirement in NSW

        ^The said bus driver.

      • pegaxs on 09/02/2022 - 17:51
        +6

        I know you already know now… but the actual legislation says:

        46 Giving a left change of direction signal
        (3) If the driver is about to change direction by moving from a stationary position at the side of the road or in a median strip parking area, the driver must give the change of direction signal for at least 5 seconds before the driver changes direction.

        (NSW Road Rule 48 deals with "right" indicator use.)

        This includes everyone, bus driver or not.

  • Hithere on 09/02/2022 - 16:04
    +11

    In Vic often they don't even put their indicators on before pulling out.

    They work on the theory that they are bigger than a car so a car should either stop or let them squeeze in.

    • spackbace on 09/02/2022 - 16:57
      +35

      Well in WA they're Mercedes buses, so must be similar to BMW drivers

    • kimbo56 on 10/02/2022 - 15:52
      +1

      I believe you are refering to the unwritten road rule of: beep, beep I'm a bus.

  • GG57 on 09/02/2022 - 16:04
    +16

    The rules are the rules. I don't think we need a lot of people's different 'opinions' or perhaps loopholes.
    If you see a bus stopped ahead, ready yourself for the possibility that it may indicate and re-join the traffic. Easy.

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:05
      +17

      80km road. Do I ready myself by assuming the bus will just indicate and I go on the brakes?
      This guy went from hazards to indicator and cut me right off.

      Easier said than done…..

      • GG57 on 09/02/2022 - 16:07
        +10

        When I said "…ready yourself for the possibility…", that includes moderating your speed.
        Again, easy.

        • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:10
          +5

          "The driver of the bus must give the change of direction signal for long enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers and pedestrians"

          What is long enough deemed?

          • GG57 on 09/02/2022 - 16:13
            +4

            @iNeed2Pee: Here we go with the opinions / loopholes.
            Just do whatever you want to do. If you crash into the bus, or are rear-ended, that is the outcome of your actions.

            Or, you could take a defensive approach and save yourself all that headache.

            Your choice.

            • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:14
              +2

              @GG57: Yes an opinion/loophole by asking what would be deemed long enough. 🤨

              • GG57 on 09/02/2022 - 16:15

                @iNeed2Pee: Take it to court and debate it there.

                • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:16
                  +3

                  @GG57: Will you be my lawyer?

                  • GG57 on 09/02/2022 - 16:17
                    +2

                    @iNeed2Pee: No way. Your actions could have prevented any incident.
                    I would prefer to prosecute you.

                    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:23
                      +5

                      @GG57: Yes. My actions are abysmal. Give me life your honour.

          • crentist on 09/02/2022 - 17:25
            +5

            @iNeed2Pee: 5 seconds. It's the line right after the one you quoted (if you were quoting vicroads).

            This is applied to bus drivers as part of reg 77, note 3

          • pegaxs on 09/02/2022 - 17:54
            +1

            @iNeed2Pee:

            What is long enough deemed?

            5 seconds.

            Vic Road Rule 48(3)

            (3) If the driver is about to change direction by
            moving from a stationary position at the side of
            the road or in a median strip parking area, the
            driver must give the change of direction signal for
            at least 5 seconds before the driver changes
            direction.

            • djones145 on 09/02/2022 - 18:51
              +8

              @pegaxs: but if the hazard lights are on
              https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/resources/wp-content/up…

              and it's those lights, he should have been driving at 40km/HR and that's slow as, can't have an accident at that speed!

              • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:42

                @djones145: Someone rear ended me at what I estimated to be 20km/hr, and apparently it's going to be a write-off.
                I don't remember my high school physics so well… something about mass x velocity… yeah, still an accident.

                But I agree. I'd rather be doing 40 than 80 when a kid steps out in front of the bus.

        • dummyboy87 on 11/02/2022 - 09:46

          yeah easy
          but i guess OP is saying the bus drivers should play a part
          put it another way, asking bus drivers to turn on their indicators for 5 secs before rejoining traffic isnt a big ask too

    • crentist on 09/02/2022 - 17:22
      +3

      Do your rules also apply to bus drivers? Because there are actual road rules that do.
      eg "the driver must give the change of direction signal for at least 5 seconds before the driver changes direction"

      • GG57 on 10/02/2022 - 09:24

        Of course the rules apply to all parties. Again, we don't need to debate them.

    • McFly on 11/02/2022 - 10:32
      +4

      The rules are the rules.

      Exactly, yet you keep absolving buses of their responsibility. Why?

  • wannagrababargain on 09/02/2022 - 16:05
    +6

    I figure that the bus is a vehicle that weighs at least 10x as mine so it is going to move where it wants to into that lane regardless of where in said lane my car is placed. Bus drivers probably figure the same logic.

    • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:43

      I wonder if OP would insist on his right to not give way to a truck who's decided he's coming into his lane right on top of him

  • pharkurnell on 09/02/2022 - 16:12
    +10

    The rule was brought in cause nobody would let buses out in to traffic.

    How often do you see someone giving a bus or truck space to pull out without them being forceful? Rarely
    Now think your now the bus driver, I'd think (profanity) em too.

    YMMV

    • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:44

      I get waves from bus drivers all the time. They seem so surprised that I noticed their indicator and slowed to give them room.

    • kaleidoscope on 10/02/2022 - 13:46
      +1

      How often do you see someone giving a bus or truck space to pull out without them being forceful?

      I do… My interactions with them mostly are on 50 or 60 roads with roundabouts and road bumps, so on average its easier to give way than on a straight 80 roads

  • djones145 on 09/02/2022 - 16:14
    +16

    when ever i see i bus i just slow down and get ready

    how ever u see it its not worth risking or running into a bus

    also doesnt it says on the back of the bus when lights are on, its 40km? or is that NSW only
    https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/resources/wp-content/up…

    so was the lights flashing, did it have this sign and what speed were you driving at! 80?

  • Quantumcat on 09/02/2022 - 16:14
    +10

    Whenever I see a bus stopped in the road a decent distance ahead I move to the other lane to avoid situations like OP's.

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:15
      +3

      Other lane is the wrong side of the road 😂😂

      • Quantumcat on 09/02/2022 - 16:16
        +2

        Ah fair enough not much you can do if it is a single lane road. Luckily nothing bad happened (besides giving you a fright) but I think if it did the fault would be split 50-50 between you. The bus driver should give a longer warning (and look before pulling out) and you should anticipate this might happen and slow down before passing a bus

        • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 16:36
          +1

          Yeah, it was a tough one. I guess i just did not expect him to pull out considering I was right there.

          • Quantumcat on 09/02/2022 - 20:14
            +8

            @iNeed2Pee: Doesn't hurt to assume everybody else on the road is an idiot

        • macrocephalic on 10/02/2022 - 15:40
          +1

          If the bus driver doesn't give adequate warning before pulling out onto the road then it's 100% the bus driver's fault. The issue is that the only way to prove it is with video footage. I think it's stupid to drive without a dashcam now - mostly for these scenarios, and I think all buses should have it fitted too seeing as they're large, expensive vehicles being driven many hours a day.

          • iNeed2Pee on 10/02/2022 - 15:51

            @macrocephalic: Im not here to bash bus drivers.
            I took a bus for many years.
            I just couldn't believe he pulled out. Glad I did not really have to swerve on the other side to avoid him. Usually im in a different lane but this was not a 2 lane road. So it made it difficult.

          • Savas on 10/02/2022 - 20:14
            +1

            @macrocephalic: Buses literally have like 10 cameras ..

  • whitelie on 09/02/2022 - 16:16
    +3

    I think this spells it out pretty well.
    Stationary vehicles are required to indicate for a minimum of 5 seconds if they are required to give way but as the bus has right of way, the 5 second rule does not apply to them.

    • crentist on 10/02/2022 - 09:50
      +2

      No, it doesn't say that buses don't have to indicate for 5 seconds. It says that buses don't have to give way to other vehicles, if other vehicles are required to give way to the bus.

      That page mentions Reg 77 which in turn states that bus drivers must follow Reg 48 (3), which is the 5 second rule.

  • AustriaBargain on 09/02/2022 - 16:42
    +4

    You should respect the buses, without them you'd have dozens of extra cars in front of you instead of a bus.

    • Daabido on 12/02/2022 - 18:18
      +1

      Is that because all those individual people on the bus would coordinate with each other to leave home at the same time to form a convoy to frustrate OP's effort to get where he's going?

      • AustriaBargain on 12/02/2022 - 19:46

        Well they would all be on the road at a similar time in any case.

  • John Kimble on 09/02/2022 - 17:01
    +1

    Are buses supposed to allow an indicator for couple of seconds at least before pulling out of that lane or are they entitled to pull right out regardless of other road users and claim it is fine?

    Yes. Do they? Not always. Most times I notice people don't give way to the bus, and the bus has to wait for many cars (that don't want to be stuck behind a slow bus) to go by before it can leave the kerb.

    Bus driver was probably late (not that this means it gives them the right to do the wrong thing).

  • Brian McGee on 09/02/2022 - 17:12
    +4

    Most bus drivers in NSW use the 'Might is Right' rule when driving in general.

    They also seem to think the give way rule is for changing lanes (hot tip, it's not) but they continue to barge across 3 lane roads from a standing stop to get to the next side street.

    • 2024 on 09/02/2022 - 17:50

      Don't forget the trucks when they are overtaking on rural roads, and also pulling out of side streets. Give way doesn't apply!

      • Brian McGee on 10/02/2022 - 09:17

        Might be time to buy a star destroyer just to out-muscle them ?

    • AustriaBargain on 12/02/2022 - 19:47

      If every bus driver was timid on the road then we'd need more buses on the road, because they would all travel slower and pick up fewer passengers.

      • Brian McGee on 12/02/2022 - 19:57

        They definitely aren’t timid of red lights, or as they prefer to call them, sunburnt green.

  • SF3 on 09/02/2022 - 17:36

    Any dashcam evidence?

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 17:37
      +1

      I am afraid not.
      Bus 1
      Peeboy 0

      • 2024 on 09/02/2022 - 17:52
        +2

        paint diagram?

  • 2024 on 09/02/2022 - 17:48
    +4

    I really hate it when they have their hazard lights on. If I'm stopped next to the bus, lets say in the rear half of the bus, and I can only see the driver side indicators, I can assume that its indicating to leave because I can't actually see that all the lights are blinking. So I'll wait. Too long. For it to leave. And all along it had its hazard lights on. This has happened a few times. And I hate it.

    • plmko on 09/02/2022 - 18:34
      +1

      If you think that's bad wait till you experience Melbourne trams drivers that don't put on the blinkers and just randomly eject passengers out whilst you're crawling besides them. You have a fraction of second to mash your brakes otherwise you're in for a scene.

      • John Kimble on 09/02/2022 - 19:53

        just randomly eject passengers out

        Sounds like fun, like a James Bond car!

    • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:49
      +2

      I have the same complaint. Who thought it would be a good idea to repurpose indicators for hazard lights?
      They could have used any other lights and it wouldn't have caused any where near as much confusion.

      • macrocephalic on 10/02/2022 - 15:44
        +1

        Well, for every other vehicle on the road it's not as issue as a hazard is normally an actual hazard, and the lights should only be used very rarely. If the bus is stopped at the curb then it should have it's left indicator on and it's brakes on - that's already two sets of lights and if a driver hits them still then having that one extra light flashing wasn't going to stop them.

        • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 16:25

          I'm not sure what the laws are for hazard lights, but I've been told to turn on hazard lights when approaching a portable stop light on a highway. Delivery drivers also use them while double parked.

          The common scenario is visibility of the left indicator is blocked (very common with the delivery drivers) , so traffic stops thinking the vehicle is going to pull out in front of them. Extra safe I guess??

          But if the bulb was blown in the right indicator, so it looks like the vehicle in a hazardous situation is just indicating left, that could cause a dangerous situation.

          I agree that buses should be using haphazard lights unless there is a bomb on board.

          • 2024 on 10/02/2022 - 18:18
            +3

            @SlickMick: Even if there was a bomb, the bus would be doing 50 mph and not stopped tho

            • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 22:40
              +1

              @2024: oh yeah. That was the worst reference ever

      • unclemike on 11/02/2022 - 14:40

        a lot of the time bus drivers with no intention of pulling out onto the road, keep the hazards on while someone is leaving the bus which defeats the purpose of this give way rule

  • crazyboy on 09/02/2022 - 17:51

    My experience in Sydney has been pretty good with bus drivers (except City as I don't drive to City). Even when they have the right indicator on and I am very close to the bus and can't apply brakes safely to let the bus in, they always merge behind me.

  • pegaxs on 09/02/2022 - 18:06
    +1

    Looks like a bit of he said, she said going on here. I am sure if we asked the bus driver, they would tell us they had their indicator on for the required minimum and would regale us with stories of arsehole drivers cutting them off all day.

    Chances are it was probably 5 seconds, but at 80km/h, it wouldn't feel like enough time, because you travel about 22m every second at that speed and in 5 seconds, you would be some 110m away from the bus.

    So, I'm not saying the bus driver is right, but I think there is a little distance/time dilation going on here that OP just isnt considering.

    Also, if a bus has its indicator on to pull out, you have to give way to it anyway.

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 18:14
      +1

      It was definitely not 5 seconds. Again it made it difficult as he had the hazards lights on prior.
      It went from Hazards to indicator, maybe the driver thought it was long enough. I slammed my brakes on, and he just made it out.
      Driver behind me was awfully close to me as well.
      I am not saying they all do it, but as of late it has been more so.

      I do understand your speed analysis but trust me I was watching that bus and I reckon I had dropped to 70 and thought i was in the clear, next thing I know, out he comes and my evasive driving that I have been working on sprung into action 😂.

      • djones145 on 09/02/2022 - 18:52
        +1

        what hazard light was it
        https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/resources/wp-content/up…

        are u saying those lights? above the drive at 40 if lights are on sign. not sure if ur state has those signs but nsw does

      • User64 on 10/02/2022 - 08:01

        In Vic the bus drivers often have their hazard lights on whilst they're picking-up/dropping-off. This means that you cannot tell when the hazards are on, and when the right indicator is on, and therefore have no idea when to let them out until they move.
        Also, in my experience:
        PT buses are also one of the most likely vehicles to run a red light

      • patchydog on 10/02/2022 - 09:48

        if his hazzard lights were on you should have been passing at 40 not 70!

      • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:51
        +1

        When you say hazard lights, doesn't this include the right indicator that allegedly was on for less than 5 seconds?

  • WreckTangle on 09/02/2022 - 18:32
    +4

    I have noticed this too. I’m happy to give way to a bus but only of they indicate to give me time to respond!

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 21:14

      Exactly that was all I wanted tbh. I was actually shocked he pulled out.

      • SlickMick on 10/02/2022 - 09:54

        You should change your username to indicate the result of not slowing down for buses, like WreckTangle.

  • Drakesy on 09/02/2022 - 19:26
    +3

    It's fairly common unfortunately, bus drivers at least in perth are contractors and basically anything goes in terms of rules

    I do feel they use their indicator not as a courtesy indicator but more an "i'm moving into your lane weather you like it or not" indicator

    It's a big issue and yes i've been on the receiving end of it multiple times as well. Best you can do is jot down the numberplate, time and dob them in. Given that in Perth they're a contractor, the government can terminate certain employees at a moments notice.

  • Almost Banned on 09/02/2022 - 19:52

    In WA the rule is found in s. 59 of the Road Traffic Code and it provides quite clearly:
    59. Giving way to public buses
    (1) A driver driving on a length of carriageway in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, shall give way to a public bus in front of the driver if —
    (a) the public bus has stopped, or is moving slowly at the far left side of the carriageway, or in a bus embayment; and
    (b) the right indicator lights of the public bus are operating; and
    (c) the public bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving; and
    (d) the public bus is displaying a “give way to buses” sign.
    Points: 3 Modified penalty: 4 PU

    So, if it has that 'give way' sticker on it, you must give way to it. I find the bus drivers here are pretty sensible about it, even if there is no 5 second rule.

  • Savas on 09/02/2022 - 21:11
    -5

    buses take like 20 seconds to drop off passengers so why can't you just follow the law and give way? the bus already takes me 300% longer than driving to get to work so i would appreciate if people could show some respect to driver. it it was an 800 tone train i'm sure you would be more careful.

    • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 21:12
      +2

      Savas, I am not disrespecting the job of a bus driver, I am arguing against the unsafe practice of pulling out a heavy vehicle with no notice to other drivers. If the indicator was on with notice, i would abide by the law/rule.

      • Savas on 09/02/2022 - 21:19
        -5

        in sydney the buses have speed limit signs on the back of the bus.. maybe drive slower?

        • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 21:23
          -1

          Yes i will drive 20kms below the speed limit, just incase the bus driver chooses to indicate for 2 seconds and pull out. I am not sure if your actually reading what I am saying but, if the bus driver indicated with the correct amount of time, this would not have been the issue. Instead they pulled out into traffic and assumed it was ok to do so.

          • Savas on 09/02/2022 - 21:29
            -5

            @iNeed2Pee: i doubt it was 2 seconds.. how do you know it wasn't 3 seconds? or 4 seconds? what if you blinked and didn't notice one of the flashes?

            • iNeed2Pee on 09/02/2022 - 21:31
              -1

              @Savas: Even so. The rule is 5 seconds. It was definitely not that. You were not in my car today when I needed to slam on my brakes. If you were, you would not be replying backing up this driver.

              Maybe best you keep taking the bus then.

              • Savas on 09/02/2022 - 21:33
                -6

                @iNeed2Pee: you're obviously missing the point if you are complaining about 3 seconds difference. sounds like you were driving too fast and not paying attention. I always drive slowly around buses because I follow the law.

          • Quantumcat on 09/02/2022 - 21:53
            +2

            @iNeed2Pee: You only need to drive slowly when passing the bus. This will add approximately 9 seconds to your travel time (80 km/hr is 22 m/s, 40 km/hr is 11 m/s, if you slow down to 40 for 100m that's 100/11=9.09 extra seconds). It is worth doing so you have time to react if the bus does something unexpected

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