Hello everyone / Today I had bad luck with my son’s school / My son is six years old in the first grade / He pressed the alarm button and caused a false alarm and two fire trucks came to school / The school principal told me about the possibility of getting a bill estimated at 3000 dollars / I tried to discuss with her and she told me that the school will not pay this amount if there is a fine that will be paid by the father / What should I do?
Thank you
@Drakesy: they are infants. Very young children. You dont put things that arent supposed to be touched in their reach,
I suggested she speak to her MP, not you, you are not the MP, just a random.
@screensaver: or how about someone in a wheel chair?
"I couldn't push the fire alarm because it was designed only to be used by a fully grown adult"
@GG57: I don't deny this.
Sorry should've worded this better
My point would be putting it out of reach of a 6 year old would be equivalent to putting it out of reach of someone in a wheelchair.
@rektrading: State MPs are responsible for schools and their conduct and also the fire department, and the issuing of fines under false alarms and their circmstances
@screensaver: And State schools are reponsible for their young students' actions - they have a legal duty of supervision as they are in loco parentis. Basically there is no possible way either OP or his child is legally liable for this.
@yokel: Good God no! The legal doctrine of a school being "in loco parentis" is settled law, 150 years old - google the bloody term before you assume I'm one of those cranks. It is the same in all common law countries (not roman law ones though).
@screensaver: The break glass should be 140cm from the floor and within 200cm from a door.
A fire marshal can confirm the AS/NZ.
I tried to discuss with her and she told me that the school will not pay this amount if there is a fine that will be paid by the father
Why not the mother?
…paid by the father, the son, or the holy ghost. Doesn't matter which one, so long as it's not OP.
I'm surprised people are saying to pay. I'd be asking why my 6 year old child was unsupervised and why was a fire alarm within reach of your 6 year old.
This isn't a child in your care that pulled a fire alarm while walking through a store (in which case, it would be more on you) I get it if this was an older kid, but 6 years old.
I feel like a kid at that age, you entrusted your child into their care and they should ensure all children are doing the right thing, or to call you to take the child away.
IMO they just don't want to pay for it, I'd definitely argue it if they wanted you to pay.
And you are absolutely right. Because, as you say, "you entrusted your child into their care" and that is exactly the view the law takes - the school took full responsibilty for the child's actions as soon as he entered the school yard.
This makes me think about how can the button be set up in reach of children? it should be at adult height instead of a kid height.
Also, how can an alarm doesn't have a glass in front of it, I would argue that how the school prevent this thing happens, I don't think this is the first time and won't be the last if the school's fire alarm system is set up this way.
the height of the manual breakglass is between 1000 and 1200 above floor level, in accordance to the fire code.
Thank you.
how about a manual without breakglass in this case?
Well well well.. If it isn't the consequences of my sons actions…
hes in trouble, we all know that, but the fine should be waived in this instance, because he is a very young child
Schools should foot the bill I guess but why do two fire trucks cost $3000, aren't they full of voluteers? quite a profit
aren't they full of voluteers?
Hahaha?
Regular fire service is not a volunteer force only rural or country fire services are
/reply to other post
Thank you all for your responses and advice. But I will write this reply and it is considered a reply to everyone. With my three children, I am used to not carrying the iPad all week. I only give them the weekend for three hours only. The penalty will be banning the iPad for a period of three weeks and deducting the expenses for a month. This is what I do and reach the deprivation of some rewards.
I'm an international and I pay public school $13,000 a year for three students. The school is actually very helpful, I do not wrong anyone, my child is 6 years old made mistakes, but there were no instructions regarding pressing the alarm and the other thing was there was no glass on the button and The button was close to the ground, the distance did not exceed one meter.
Next Monday I will find out if there is a fine for that and I will decide later. Thank you all
A six year old child should be closely supervised and expected to make mistakes and break rules.
There is absolutely no way you or your child are in any way liable for this.
Yeah the legality needs to be assessed.
That fire alarm sounds dodgy like its a non compliant installation and or isn't being maintained, the fact it doesn't have a break cover which is to prevent unintentional activation. You'd think they'd be on top of something like that with 6 year olds running around. Sounds like they need an audit as its probably not the only thing.
Duty of care and responsible liability of minors being looked after in a school environment all has its legalities.
I don't see how someone should have to pay for what appears to be an issue of negligence on the schools part.
That's a weird position for a fire alarm. It almost seems it was designed to be pulled by children.
Very strange to allow the vast majority of people who will be in an area access to potentially life saving emergency equipment.
Caveat is only competent people (most likely adults and near adults)
Its like putting a fire alarm button at ground level in a childcare where all the babies can access it and then be surprised when the fire alarm goes off every minute. Gee, very strange indeed.
If the fire service issues a bill, it will be to the school. Helpful or not, it’s the school that wants to charge you. If it was me I’d decline to pay.
I'm sure we've all looked at fire alarms as a kid and wondered what actually happens if they are pulled.
Even as an adult, I'm curious. Do the sprinklers go off too? When does that happen? How bad does a fire need to be before the alarm is "allowed"
I also wonder what happens if you dial 000 and hang up, or don't hang up.
I still don't know how much trouble or not these things are. And at a younger age I had little reason to think that a safety measure would get anyone in too much trouble, except that if you cry fire too often they'll ignore you when a real wolf comes and burns the place down.
The only thing I know, that this kid didn't, is that the payoff is probably underwhelming at best.
Good on him for acting on curiosity before the world drills it out of him.
FRV can charge for false alarms at the rate of $578 per truck per 15 minutes under the Act.
I'm sorry my writing is not good, I use a translator.
I'm an international
Your English and knowledge of Australian legislation has improved in leaps and bounds in the space of only a couple of posts ?????
From: https://www.frv.vic.gov.au/fire-alarm-systems
FRV can charge for false alarms at the rate of $578 per truck per 15 minutes under the Act.
They copied and pasted from google/this site right?
Don’t worry too much.. most likely will not be invoiced. Even if it is, the school had duty of care and you can definitely challenge them trying to get the parents of a 6yo under their duty of care that bill.
I set off fire alarms at my highschool on multiple occasions in plain sight, but because of crowds and normal movements to blend in, I was never busted. I've outsmarted every mofo I've ever met or had anything to do with IRL.
If they charge you anything for pressing a button…kids do silly things sometimes, boys especially, I would be changing schools. Your son is 6 years old…definitely change schools. Sounds like the people running the place are phoning it in
That's the kind of people we have in our society… It's concerning…
… And why did you do that? You're just wasting people's time, potentially endangering others who could have needed that firetruck that came to your school. Even if no firetruck came, you're still wasting a lot of people's time.
Nah, wasn't set up like that. Even then, any school would notify authorities. Fire brigade normally calls ahead of time.
I had a school fire alarm local to me, running for ages. 4 hours later I call up and tell them about it, they told me they had NO idea.
That means everybody else in the area for kilometers kept on thinking somebody else would figure it out. Hilarious
The point is, kids do silly things sometimes. I turned out better than most people from my year, and I'm not an amoral POS like most people when the opportunity presents itself.
If it was a known false alarm by the school, would they not contact the Fireys to cancel the callout?
Instead of waiting for the firetrucks to arrive and telling them false alarm.
Can anyone other than the firey reset the alarm panel?
Just hit it again?
Lol
It’s an automated system. You can’t cancel a callout. That’s progress for you.
I have tried this. They keep coming - they don't take the risk you are reading the FIP correctly.
The child was under the care of the school and in their custody so to speak. I’d argue that the school has a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of children in their custody. Might also be worth asking the school to demonstrate they provided students with a safety induction and evacuation plan including use of emergency equipment.
This is clearly a ‘hail mary’ shot.
Might as well say the teacher was not paying attention to OP's kid, therefore the teacher should pay.
But by sounds of things the principal is finding facts who is responsible. If the kid did indeed press the alarm button even when told not to, then parents responsible.
If the teacher let it happen because of poor supervision, then teacher pay.
However lots of unknown in this post:
* Did it happen during class when students were seated?
* Why did kid get up from seat?
* Was it in between teachers moving between classroom?
* Was it in between kids moving between classroom?
* Did it happen during recess?
Etc.
To be frank, the parents aren’t in the picture here as they weren’t present. So its either the school or kid.
Extract from gotocourt.com.au
Parents are generally not liable for torts committed by their children. However, a parent is liable if a child commits a tort as their agent or with their authority. A parent can also be found to be liable where they have failed to exercise proper control or supervision over a child who has committed a tort.
Parents who are aware that their child has uncontrollable tendencies have a duty to control them more closely.
https://www.gotocourt.com.au/civil-law/liability-of-children…
Good find. Still depends on the circumstances which OP doesn't know or have not provided.
If kid is responsible to pay, parents will be the one responsible for paying at end of day.
If kid is responsible to pay, parents will be the one responsible for paying at end of day
Not entirely correct if at all. At the time the parents were not the guardians. Additionally they need to be found the parent contributed by inciting it or not showing proper care.
At the time the parents were not the guardians.
I said if the kids were responsible to pay, not the parents responsible for the act.
Just because the parents were not the guardians at the time, doesn't mean parents can't foot the bill. When kids break rules under supervision, is the school still responsible and liable for damage?
The story presented here is missing information like what happened, which the school is finding out.
@avoidfullprice: Yeah. You see, you are talking from emotional angles rather than facts of law.
If for whatever reason the kid is liable, it is not automatic that the parents are obligated to pick up the bill.
@Vote for Pedro: The Fire Brigade doesn’t attempt to assess responsibility. They bill whoever owns the building at the address.
Your argument is exactly what a court would say. Legally the school is in loco parentis while the kid is there so any damage a child does is wholly the school's, not the parent's, responsibility. Unless the principal is completely ignorant of her legal position she would know that.
Interestingly:
According to Youth Law Australia, “Each school is responsible for making their own rules and to set reasonable punishments for breaking these rules.” Because teachers become the legal guardians of students the moment they enter the campus, they’re 100% within the law to set punishments that involve having students stay after class.
Context different but guardianship is addressed
Maybe comes down to whether the parents signed a contract with the school during enrollment covering this situation.
Do not agree to anything.
DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING!
The school would have insurance for that kind of thing.
And as another poster said. "The child was under the care of the school and in their custody so to speak. I’d argue that the school has a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of children in their custody. " If the school did not adequately instruct the kids about these things then it's on them and not on you.
Yea, we should blame the teachers.. after all isn't that why they always striking for a pay rise? or that doens't fix inadequacy
No. Noone is blaming the teacher. They mostly do an amazing job and all credit to them.
The principal is a fool and shouldn’t be trying to pin this on anyone. It is leaders like this principal that cause issues within the school community.
Who blamed the teachers?
And how many time a year do little kids do something like this at school? I'm sure it's happened before and a principle with half a brain would understand that and have a plan in place to deal with the situation if and when it happens. Or they can choose to act like a six year old themselves and have a little tanty which helps nobody.
This might cost you OP…same as if your kid deliberately smashed a window or damaged a teachers car. Some commentators above say you could try to fight it, but can you afford to take on an education department in court?
Not at all. There is a longstanding legal rule that when a child is in school then the school is in loco parentis - "in the position of a parent". That is, the school assumes both the rights and the responsiblities of a parent. That means among other things that any damage the kid causes is the school's, not the parent's, problem.
The principal must know that so this is a pure bluff - it would never get to court.
A six year old is not liable for deliberately smashing a window or damaging a teachers car either.
Parents are only liable if they contributed in some way.
ie directly caused the child to smash the window, or allowed something to continue that had a foreseeable risk of resulting in the smashed window etc
not sure why so many forward slashes / perhaps your enter key doesn't work / or its next to the enter key / oh no now I'm doing it too :/
I would see if the fine gets issued then if it does contact whoever issued it apologise and or make a cute little video of your son apologising and ask for the fine to be reconsidered.
If it is not you are not obliged to pay the fine. The incident happened when the child was under their supervision and will be issued under their name.
If pulling your child out of this school is an issue then go to the school and ask to see the fire alarm that he pulled. Take a photo then get a fire inspector to check if the alarm is up to standard.
Then lastly consider paying the fine if you like the school. Ask for the original fine sent by the fire brigade. Even though the children were under their supervision it isn’t realistic for them to monitor ever child at every moment. Fire alarms need to be accessible to children in case of a genuine emergency and they should not be touching them unless there is an emergency.
When I was around 12yo or so (around year 1995) and got my first computer, I had no access to the internet, but the 14400 kbps modem was installed and activated. There was this book that came with the computer and a software named "The Microsoft Network" already installed. I opened the software and rang the first phone number on the list (my country was not listed)… I spent a few hours talking with some people around the world… It was my first computer and the first time chatting to people online… I did that for a few days… After a few weeks, the first telephone bill came in… It was a ridiculous amount of money, probably 8-10x the usual monthly bill. International calls from my country to South Africa… That was expensive in the 90s. My parents were shocked. I was obviously upset, could never imagine…
My parents used to make monthly deposits to a savings account they had created for me for my own daily expenses… I wouldn't spend much so I had saved some money for years… The money covered about 70% of the bill… And yes, my parents took my money to pay the bill (they kindly paid the other 30%).
Stupid lesson learned, never again… Calls to international numbers blocked to prevent further damage…
Reference
http://www.codersnotes.com/notes/the-microsoft-network/
If the fine comes to you, you can try to talk to fire department or negotiate the fine, but I do think that's your responsibility.
But there's a huge differnece legally between being at home and at school. If you had done all this at school then the school, not your parents, would have been 100% liable for that bill. Not you and not your parents
Maybe… I imagine this concept might be a problem if kids actually decide to intentionally press the button every day… There is no way the school can monitor every child to avoid them intentionally activating the alarm.
Children actually learn and receive education at home, not in school.
If your child causes damage to school's property, you should be responsible for that. Parents tell their children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.
Stupid things happen but we are still responsible for the stupid things we do. If you hit a car, you are responsible for that. You might have insurance or not, but that's your responsibility.
My curious nephew once broke something in a store… He was 5yo, he saw a small colourful statue, picked it up and dropped it… My brother in law negotiated the price but he had to pay for the broken "piece of art". It was cheap. He learned that my nephew shouldn't be in this kind of store, my nephew hopefully learned something despite not facing any consequences, as far as I know.
That's how people learn to be responsible and how to live in society.
A button that costs $3000 to press should not be accessible to six year old children. It is that simple.
@trapper: Maybe it's accessible so that anyone who sees a fire can press it and not wait for a tall person, or go around finding tools to reach the button/break glass to reach the button?
Fire alarms are common sense and should've been explained to kids by parents what they are and when to press it.
I view teachers as only responsible for teaching course materials, not everyday common sense things.
@tikei: Do they also leave sharp knives lying around the school relying on the 'common sense' of a six year old not to touch.
@trapper: Fire alarm saves lives. Knives take lives. Knives are put away because they can be dangerous and deadly, but fire alarms serve the opposite purpose and it is reasonable for them to be accessible for emergencies.
where is the Ms paint of u and your child at time of incident?
It's a time lapse. The kid has a big grin on his face as he pulls the alarm and in the next panel he looks horrified and is shitting his pants. Next panel, parent gets a call at the pokies while pulling on a durrie. The penultimate panel the parent looks mad as he's been pulled out of the stupor the bright lights entranced him into. The final panel is the headmaster laughing uncontrollably, rolling in a pile of money which all state schools have an abundance of.
Bahaha I just exploded into a fit of laughter - thank you :)
To my understanding parents are not legally responsible for the actions of their children. I remember the case where a child pushed an expensive tv in a shop and broke it. The shop requested the parent to pay, but the court decided otherwise.
See https://queenslandlawhandbook.org.au/the-queensland-law-hand… for example
Normally, parents are not liable for torts (civil wrongs) committed by their children. Liability will usually only arise if the child who commits the wrong was acting as the parent’s agent or with their authority, or when it is found that a parent has not exercised proper control or supervision over a child who has committed a tort. Naturally, the circumstances will differ in each case.
Parents who know their child to have uncontrollable tendencies have a much stricter duty to control them.
You are not liable for anything your six year old son does.
So unless you contributed in some way, due to negligence etc, then you are in the clear.
I actually think the school is liable (if a bill comes out of it) because he was under their supervision at the time.
At least it seems the school bluff is working hehe :)
Lol. Tell the idiot principal to pull their head in. The person who should be paying is the one that allowed the child near the switch unsupervised. How can you be held responsible if you were nowhere near the child at the time. A 6yo doesn’t know what it is and can’t reasonably be held accountable for knowing what it is. Even if they could read (and I very much doubt it) they would not understand what it means nor any consequences related to misuse.
There is no way that anyone can make that fine stick to you unless you had some sort of hand in pulling the lever yourself. Other factors would be how it was placed, where it was mounted and what people/children are told about it and what training in its use was done and what signage was around it and if a 6yo would fully understand what the signage means.
The number of people in this thread saying “just pay the fine” are off their heads.
In loco parentis
Ask your principal to Google it, then tell her to get f*&^ed.
One of my friends kids got hold of a sharp object (some sort of stake) and started waving it around and running towards the other kids trying to tag them with it (he was 5 years old and it looked like he was trying to stab them), they called parents in and told my friend they will suspend the kid, and how dangerous his actions were etc etc. Well guess what, the teacher was suspended due to lack of supervision. LOL to all those people saying pay the fine WTF are you crazy, did the kid know s*#t would hit the fan when he pressed the button?
Trying things out and experimentation, risk taking etc, is all part of normal development for growing lads.
Seriously I would have no time to deal with the mental patients running the school, and get my kid out of there asap.
I think it would be a nice gesture to organise a BBQ sizzle for the fire station. All proceeds going to their charity. Also a sincere apology from the boy. We all make mistakes, and I think there is a good chance they just want to see some remorse. Take the opportunity to teach a life lesson.
Good idea.
yes as a further gesture of good will bake cup cakes for the faculty and ozbargain members who gave you free advice
From the story it doesn't sound like there's any actual bill so I'd actually wait to see if there is one. That said, if an actual bill comes through, I think the school should cover it from their funds.
If they don't want their fire alarms to be triggered by 6 year olds maybe they should have them higher, monitor them better, or better educate the kids on them.
I did this at Myer on Bourke St in Melbourne when I was a kid. I didn't know what the thing on the wall was, so I opened it up and pressed the button. They evacuated the entire department store. One of the girls who worked there saw me do it, but she just smiled at me.
I call this BS. I bet you were the girl that worked there and smiled at a little kid indicating him to push the fire alarm button and subsequently evacuated the entire department store building.
That sounds like the start of a story in Penthouse Letters.
I was like 10 you sicko.
Go to local fire department ask speak to fire warden ask fire warden nice about bring few gifts for fire people ask if staff can show you son why it wrong to pull fire alarm at school. i don't know about NSW but were i live in Queensland know our local fire warden he might be nice put down training
I have no legal knowledge but I have anecdotal evidence. I worked in the same building as a cooking school. I was also a fire warden so I got to know some of the instructors and other assigned wardens in their school. They had regular unfortunate accidental fire alarms set off. Each and every single time, the school would responsibly pay the ~$2000 fine until they found and fixed the problem that was causing the alarms to set off. The alarms were triggered by unfortunate placement, and they owned up to it. Even if the student happened to be cooking or baking near it, they could potentially set it off themselves, but it wasn't the student's responsibility to pay. And these are adult students, mind you, who themselves have the capacity to take a job and earn money.
Your school needs to own up. It is their fire alarm. There is no legally binding contract they can utilise to fob off the bill to someone else (unless this is written somehow in your children's school contract or whatever). Whatever the reason was, they need to begin remediation steps to prevent this from happening again, but that is another story that does not apply to you.
@screensaver: Imagine the kid when getting interviewed by a journalist after the school burnt down.
"Couldn't you just push the fire alarm"
"I couldn't because they were put out of reach for our 'safety'"