I stopped late at traffic lights last night, my wheels stopping on the line and the front of my car protruding into a pedestrian crossing. When the lights went red, there were several flashes of light (indicating a red light camera trigger), and no one was crossing the intersection.
Is it likely I’m going to be fined, even though I never crossed the intersection? Could I be fined for not stopping before the line?
Worried about getting the fine, and whether I should accept or challenge it.
The vibe.
That’s fair, what I needed to hear! Assuming I was the one who triggered it, I can expect a fine at a later date.
Edit: there’s a difference in what the law says and how vigorously it’s enforced in practice, hence why I asked the question here. Your response was the perfect example thanks!
there’s a difference in what the law says and how vigorously it’s enforced in practice
Maybe in criminal law, not in traffic violations.
Its very rare for traffic enforcement to go easy on anyone.
You’d have a better shot at getting off a murder charge then trying to get away with triggering a redlight camera because you stopped late.
Crazy system, but thats how it is.
If they didn’t continue through the red light, they might not get a fine. There are two flashes and two photos taken. The second photo is taken to determine if the subject continued through the red.
depends on what state they're in. in SA there is the following fine applicable according to police.sa.gov.au on the top of page 4:
56(1) At red traffic light fail to stop before stop line A103, $515 fine, $94 levy, $609 total, 3 demerits
Ahhhhh, SA. The true nanny state that’s too posh to call a fine a fine. expiation.
It’s a shame, great state but it’s run by a pack of nongs.
Wait and see if they send you a fine. If you were over the line, but the photos show you not moving, you may not get a fine for running the red light, but be warned, you may get a fine for crossing the line or being stopped in the pedestrian box.
I should accept or challenge it.
How about you wait and see what fine you get first and base your decision off that.
(And just for the record, most red light camera triggers are usually way out into the pedestrian box, so forgive me if I don’t believe the whole “my wheels were stopped on the line” stuff.)
There was definitely another line in front of me, so maybe I didn’t trigger the camera then?
The cameras are not triggered by the lines, but by induction loops under the road.
If you can give the address of the red light camera, I can highlight what I am talking about.
It was corner of Royal Parade and MacArthur road in Parkville (Melbourne).
Edit: I was heading west from the cemetery towards Royal park.
cemetery
Commonly referred to as the dead centre of Parkville.
Street view shows your Camry with obligatory rear quarter panel ding going through the intersection. What are the chances?
@Muzeeb: It’s funny you mention it - on Google maps satellite view there is a car at the same spot that is also over the line like I was (I was in the far left lane though), what are the chances???
@whatgift: Ok, too easy.
It is a bit harder to see on that Google Maps photo, so I have used the other red light camera just near it on Royal Parade as an example, as the induction loops are clearer.
In this example The induction loops marked out with blue arrows are the traffic signal induction loops. These tell the rights that cars are waiting and to change to green.
The red arrows are the red light/speed "camera" induction loops. The first loop signals a car at that spot (behind the line). The second loop (across the line) works with the first loop to determine speed (1st loop triggered, then second loop triggered gives a time between triggers over known distance and thus a speed.) The second loop also triggers the "red light" camera because it has been triggered that a vehicle has crossed over the line.
@MS Paint: I thought this photo was much classier… :D
@pegaxs: Great work there, I appreciate your effort in showing how this works!
I would guess the front of my car has triggered the loop in the pedestrian crossing, so will be interesting to see the result in the mail when it arrives.
@whatgift: "In-road sensors are used at intersections to detect if a vehicle crosses over the stop line against a red traffic light. This triggers the camera to take an image.
The camera is designed to take 2 images of an offending vehicle that combine to prove that it:
The camera also captures the time elapsed between a traffic light turning red and the vehicle entering the intersection.
If a light changes to red while you are already in the intersection, you will not be issued a fine (the camera is only activated by a vehicle driving over the stop line after the light has turned red)."
https://www.camerassavelives.vic.gov.au/how-cameras-work/cam…
@pegaxs: Interesting example here. I ride a motorcycle and will often lane filter then position my bike in front of the vehicle stopped at lights which means I'd be situated over the top of the induction loops you've shown with red arrows. I wonder if my doing so would trigger the red light camera and what the result would be. I'm legally entitled to lane filter and manoeuvre my bike in such a manner according to most states' legislations.
@gyrex: Cant go past the white line though even though a lot of bikes go fully into the intersection.
@gyrex: depends on what state you're in. In SA, they don't write it down but in their lane filtering video around 1 minute in it states that you still need to stay behind the stop line at traffic lights. Otherwise we can be hit with the following fine according to police.sa.gov.au:
56(1) At red traffic light fail to stop before stop line A103, $515 fine, $94 levy, $609 total, 3 demerits
It sucks though, it's safer for us to be in front of a car where we can be sure they've seen us and we can't get pinched compared to being stuck between two cars.
I thought this photo(google.com) was much classier… :D
What am I missing here? That car that's in the intersection has a green light and is driving through the intersection, like the car that took the photos.
@pegaxs: I've been pinged and fined on this junction. The long sweeping right with a speed of 60 has a orange light works only for 4 seconds instead of 6 that is typical for a speed of 60.
This has been challenged numerous times but to no avail becuse the expectation is you slow down to at-least 40 and hence you should have enough time to stop
Btw, kinda related question, I see new types of speed cameras in several locations including this one…Looks like a digital one with Green or Red light…anybody know how they're better than the previous ones?
edit: this camera - not sure why they look so different - https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/q96ct0/saw_these…
@zooter: I've heard that the new red light cameras, which might be those ones, don't have any flashes so you won't even know you've been pinged.
@whatgift: I triggered the red light camera turning right on this exact intersection about 8 years ago, never got a fine.
Back then I remember researching it and read a lot about ‘they manually check every set of photos to see if the car actually stopped’. I assume this hasn’t changed, or if it has then upon a challenge they’d check the photos manually and not give you a fine?
That's sounds incorrect. I've seen the government put up new red light speed cameras but they never dug up the road to install induction loops.
@nobro25: Cameras don't use the induction loops .
The loops aren't that good and don't get triggered often if you have a motorcycle.
If the cameras used induction they would miss out on fines
They take 2 photos. If in the second photo you have not moved from the first photo, they won't fine you.
Moved by how much? shrugs
He wont be fined as he didn't go through the intersection.
In hindsight I probably could’ve stopped earlier, I was being over cautious.
You could've stopped earlier, but you didn't, and you were being over cautious? That doesn't make sense to me.
I was trying not to stop too quickly and potentially cause a slide or the person behind me to run into me.
Do you have a great driving record? If you do you might get lucky and only receive the notice for the infringement with the fine waived automatically. Otherwise you need to apply for leniency to have the fine waived.
It’s good but not perfect, so imagine getting leniency is unlikely in my case.
Added to that, red light camera offences are usually not open to leniency. Serious offences and those committed in school zones usually have no application for leniency pathway.
My wife actually got her speeding fine waived twice automatically for going 50kmph in a school zone. She lost track of school zone hours and thought that she had slowed down to 50kmph from 60kmph. I am just hoping that if OP has a great driving record the fine may be waived.
@DarkOz: This kinda made my head hurt… Most (I know not all) school zones are in local/residential type areas and are already 50km/h outside of school times. It then drops down to 40km/h at school zone times. Why would she only slow to 50km/h?
And when you say "automatically", did they issue a ticket and then withdraw it? Or did she seek leniency and was granted it… "twice"?? And how long ago was this? and what state? In NSW, leniency usually has a shelf life, ie: once every 5 or 10 years you can seek leniency, and the "no leniency in school zones" has only been around a few years. No leniency on severe traffic offences has existed for as long as I can remember.
@pegaxs: Plenty of schools in Sydney has boundaries on major roads with 60kmph. Some even 70kmph. Everyone with kids from that school knew where the speed camera is and so they slow down approaching it. She slowed down to 50kmph from 60kmph. If you really want to know which schools PM me.
She received the infringement notice and the waiver at the same time. Both times. Citing her good driving record. This must be about 3 years ago and a few months apart. I am sure that it was before Covid.
Don't ask me how and why. I was shocked to find out too. I actually read the first infringement notice with the waiver because I didn't believe it. This is the reason why I posted my answer to OP.
@DarkOz: Nope, I never had a fine in my life, clean record for 15+ years but they would not waive a running a red light fine. They specifically mentioned zero leniency for dangerous offences like this.
@lainey13: Your case is completely different to OP's. You actually ran a red light but OP didn't.
If the person reviewing his case has any decency/conscience OP would not be fined. Even if OP is fined, he would most likely get the fine dropped if he takes it to court pending on a good driving record.
No such thing as leniency when it comes to red light offences.
OP can just hope since he didn't run the intersection.
I had a perfect record for 10 years until this shitty intersection.
https://goo.gl/maps/Mi3d9pC4wwtJnZvq6
Right turn only but I turned left and was stopped by a cop. Stupidest thing ever as it's more dangerous to turn right than left.
And if you do turn right, you would have to do a full lap around the station to go where you wanted to go.
Cop told me I should ask for leniency as I had a perfect record (why couldn't he just not fine me idk) so I applied but was rejected.
@dabs: the cop was telling you what you wanted to hear so he could be on his way. it does look like a dumb spot, is that somewhere people regularly drive to try to beat traffic on the main road? seems like the only reason that would be right only.
@ProlapsedHeinous: Not a local there but it's definitely not a street people drive to beat traffic. I still don't even understand why it's a right turn only.
Even if turning left could contribute to traffic during peak hour, it would be even harder to turn right with all the traffic LOL.
And if it was that street causing traffic, it would make more sense to make it left turn only so that people can get out of it quicker!
It could be the media paparazzi that follow you…
Worried about getting the fine
Worry about it when you get the mail, then let us know what the infringement ( like others have said, could be red light, over line thing, etc… ) was.
Worry about it when you get the mail
Or when some random officer turns up to ask questions about it in person. But don't forget to just own up to everything a copper asks you and help them do their job and never seek legal advice before talking to the police.
Say you had a sneezing fit, its a pretty good way to get out of many fines, hard to notice a light change if your eyes are closed.
Yes… yes… fraud will set your free!
This happened to me. As long as only the wheels crossed, you shouldn't be fined as the camera shouldn't be able to pick up your license plate.
You wont get a fine unless your rear wheels were over the line
Source on that? You trigger the camera based on a loop in the road, it makes sense that if any part of the vehicle is over the line and triggers it that you will receive a fine.
This is misinformation. It has nothing to do with where your "rear tyres" were and more about where the front of your car is. The induction loops in the road pick up on the metal in your car crossing over them, not your rear tyres.
Unless your rear tyres are made of metal. That's how they get ya.
The red light cameras are programmed to take a picture of the rear of the vehicle not the front. Crossing the line is against the road rules and triggers the camera but if the rear of your vehicle doesn’t cross the line the camera can’t get you
http://trafficlaw.com.au/red.lights.html
https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/speedcamera…
even though I never crossed the intersection?
Well, you did, you triggered the camera.
Could I be fined for not stopping before the line?
Yes.
Technically you broke the road rules and would have no grounds to fight the fine if one was issued. That said, I think you have a good chance of not getting a fine. I think you normally only get one if the second photo snaps you in the middle of the intersection.
Where is the MS paint drawing?
Do you have dashcam footage of the incident? If there was another line in front of you, you might be safe. Just depends on which line you crossed.
No dashcam and only have a Mac 😛.
iPaint?
Exact thing happened to me and I was not fined. I was the only car at the intersection so I definitely triggered the camera.
OP, if the second photo shows you came to a stop only a short distance over the stop line, you're unlikely to be booked. But if they do decide to book you, you have committed an offence, and all you can do is beg for mercy on the grounds of, say, a good driving record.
If I get the fine I’m just going to pay it, there seems little reason or benefit to try anything else, especially based on the responses here.
Don’t pay it straight away.
If you didn’t continue then you were obeying the lights.
I would at least write a letter.
You should be fine if you didn't run the intersection, they have a human reviewing these photos to rule out incorrect camera flashes.
How did you go? Any fine?
Nope, so it worked out alright!
for those that say No such thing as leniency when it comes to red light offences yes there is. In 2018 I was pinged by a read light camera. As it had been18 years since my last offence I wrote an explanation to Revenue NSW outlining a number of things plus the 18 years clear record. They knocked me back. I decided to take it to court. Magistrate found case proven with no conviction recorded. No fine/ no points lost and a 8 month good behaviour bond.
How much time did that cost you?
I was retired plus I enjoyed being in the traffic court. it was a comedy show with defendants attempting to get off their 6th speeding offence in 3 year and others trying to get off their third DUI in 2 to 3 years. The female Magistrate didn't hold back with them. She used both barrels.
Well worth the day out.
when I was a first-year uni law student I sat in Magistrates Courts quite a few times for interest and education
it was fascinating to see the stream of low lifes - some crims dressed up in ill-fitting suits but still with tatts over their face
often long charge sheets read out by the free court-appointed defence lawyer, who would then suggest mollifying circumstances
I noted remorse as a significant modifying factor in resulting sentences or penalties
testosterone-driven crims who showed up in trackie daks or singlets with a far queue attitude tended to get the heavy penalties - with free food and accommodation
first-timers who showed remorse typically got off with a warning or bond with no conviction recorded
OP take it to the magistrate. Listen to this guy. Find his magistrate.
Road rules state that you should not enter an intersection when the traffic lights are red. However, the stop line is the detection point for the red light camera, not the start of the intersection - the intersection is defined as where two cars travelling on different roads may collide. This is why red light cameras will take multiple photos as it is to show that a vehicle has in fact entered the intersection. In NSW, red light camera photos are reviewed before a fine is issued as evidence is needed that the car entered the intersection.
Therefore, assuming there is some distance between where you stopped (even if over the line) and the intersection (being the point where the car could have collided with another car), there should not be a problem as you would not have contravened the law.
Not sure where you got that idea:about "intersections":
56 Stopping for a red traffic light or arrow
(1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a red traffic light must stop—
(a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop line57 Stopping for a yellow traffic light or arrow
(1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop—
(a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights and the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop line
Even if the intersections thing was true, you'd have to conclude that the transverse pedestrian crossing isn't part of the intersecting road (and it reads to me as though it would be)
Rule 56 and 57 are not camera detected. This means that a red light camera does not detect an offence relating to these rules, though fines for these offences can be issued by police.
Given we are talking about a red light camera, the relevant rule here is rule 59, which is camera detected:
59 Proceeding through a red traffic light
(1) If traffic lights at an intersection or marked foot crossing are showing a red traffic light, a driver must not enter the intersection or marked foot crossing.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
Note 1—
Enter, intersection, marked foot crossing and red traffic light are defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2—
Rules 56 and 57 deal with stopping for a red or yellow traffic light, and proceeding while the light remains red or yellow. Rule 60 deals with proceeding through a red traffic arrow.
This is why the red light camera takes two photos: the first will show the car before entering the intersection (ie triggered by the induction loops at the stop line), the second will show the car 1 second later. If the second photo shows the car has entered the intersection then it is an offence under Rule 59(1). However, if the second photo shows that the car stopped before the intersection then there is no offence under Rule 59(1)
Finally, marked foot crossing and pedestrian crossings have different definitions in the Road Rules. Marked foot crossings are, for eg, traffic lights for pedestrian crossings. So I don't believe we're talking about a marked foot crossing here, which is relevant for Rule 59(1).
You already cross the line.Goodluck.
there was one time where i triggered a red light due to changing lane from the right lane to straight.
i was at the right lane and it was a red light to turn right, then i realise i needed to go straight instead of turning right i went straight ahead and change lanes. the second i did that there were flashes like 3 times and i knew it was me. was nervous of getting the letter however it never came.
hopefully it would be the same for you. good luck
My wife did that, but they still gave her a fine, just for changing lanes illegally over the continuous line, not for going through the red light.
Close this thread and post again if the fine comes
Has happened to me and no fine.
Pretty sure its up to the person reviewing the photo to decide.
A few months ago, I was 100% certain I had a red light camera flash when I went through Drummoyne, NSW. Even looked like it when I checked my dashcam - there was a car turning left at the same time so not sure if they copped it or it was too hard to tell.
Somehow my work or I haven't received any fines.
In Queensland the red light camera takes two photos, one triggered by the sensors in the road indicating the entry to the intersection, the other a certain short time interval to show you have proceeded into the intervention proper. You only receive a fine if the 2nd photo clearly shows you have entered the intersection and not stopped. If you stopped a short distance past the line and it it clear 9n the 2nd photo, you will not receive a file. SOURCE: was my job
In NSW it's the same - 2 photos, about 1 sec apart. If the second photo shows you haven't made significant progress into the intersection you can't be done.
IANAL.
In Victoria there are 2 flashes generating 2 pictures triggered by crossing the stop line. This is to show movement of the vehicle. If you were stationary the 2 pictures will show your car did not continue into the intersection and you will not be fined.
As mentioned there's no find as long you stopped after the first flash your safe mate
This is another example why all this REVENUE RAISING must STOP. A flash goes off and unless you can already cite the rules off the top of your head, you feel nauseous for 2-3 weeks you might get fined. Or you're driving along, not someone who speeds, but a radar trap appears (or worse, a cop puts his lights on because he gets a radio call) and your reflex is to SLAM on the brakes because you're always scared of being fined. People's reflex action to avoid fines is causing more danger than the offences.
Absolutely agreed. Traffic lights should become give way intersections too at times of low traffic. The anal road rules we have are blatantly not normal if you've lived anywhere else civilised. It's so trite to say but it literally is just revenue raising since the states are banned from doing their own income taxes so they have to hide it in stuff like this.
That's happened to me before and never recurved a ticket.
Something similar happened to me, I was in the turn right lane and jumped back into the middle lane to go straight ahead. The camera flashed me thinking I was running the red arrow. I guess when they reviewed the photos they could see I was not intending to turn and let me off. I still violated the rules by incorrectly using the lanes, I won't do it again, it was 3AM after a long day and the brain wasn't firing on all cylinders. I got lucky.
I was at 3 way intersection (two way traffic going staight or you can turn right)
I was in the furthest right lane at the front to turn right (two lanes turning right two going straight) stopped at red light, green light turned on to go straight but red arrow was on for turning right. I decided to go straight (there was a car next to me wainting to turn right but no cars going straight) i triggered the red light camera but go no fine
What i did was illegal and if i was caught by cops wld of been fined, but red light camera is there to monitor if i had turned on a red signal which i didnt i went straight on a green
So i guess if they are manually checking the pics you should be ok.
You probably shld have reversed a bit (if safe) and go forward and try and trigger camera again lol they probably would think camera needs recalibration maybe have some fines reversed for others lol
There are two flashes with red light cameras. First one to catch you before you enter the intersection and the second one after you cross it. My understanding is if you don't cross the intersection you should not get a fine even if you stopped a bit after the line. If you end getting a fine don't bother writing letters etc as there is zero leniency toward running red lights. (understandably)
happened to me, Flashes and onto one in intersection. Didn't get a fine.
I think they talk two pics and if you are moving they send you the fine
the three flashes are designed to capture not only the red light breach stages but also speeding
for those who see an orange light and speed up to race through but end up going through the red light at speed
so by stopping at least you've avoided the red light+speeding fine
which is a big nasty money-earner - about $400 fine in Sydney last I looked
In NSW you definitely wouldn't get a fine just for stopping a tad over the line. Vic may be different.
Hey mate have u got a fine or not?
Please advise same thing happened to me today..Just worried about notice and demerit
@whatgift Please let us know regarding your final fine or not?
Didn’t get any fine 👍
I think if you read the road rules it will be quite clear you breached them. On what basis would you challenge a fine?
For the record, I’ve been booked for the same thing.