Should our Higher Education system be more like America's?

SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 10:38

America just cancelled a massive wave of student debt, essentially making college free for young students.

Australia seems to be going in the opposite direction. Not only do we still enforce uni debts, but prices have increased AND the government has implemented new laws around when and how they must be paid back. Eg - you can no longer go overseas and avoid the repayments. They follow you for life.

Should we do the same as 'Murica, or keep our existing pay-the-full-amount-yourself-on-layby scheme?

Poll Options

  • 559
    Keep our current system - students should pay their own way
  • 79
    America's is better - uni should be free
Education & Work

Comments

      • hayne on 31/08/2022 - 13:51
        +1

        The argument for "free uni" completely ignores the fact that it isn't really free. It's paid for by taxpayers. So if you make university "free", then it's basically a transfer of wealth from people who don't go to university to those who choose to go. Some people just aren't cut out for studying at uni - does it mean they should be subsiding everyone else's education?

        Our current system means that those who go to university are then required to pay it back once they earn above a certain income. It still achieves its function by making sure that no one misses out on uni just because they can't afford to pay uni fees (which is a real problem in the US). If you don't earn above a threshold you never have to pay it back.

    • GrueHunter on 30/08/2022 - 11:43
      +8

      Yes, resulting in backward socioeconomic wastelands like…Germany

  • pegaxs on 30/08/2022 - 11:30
    +7

    Yeah, that's not what is happening at all…

    And those poll options…

  • brendanm on 30/08/2022 - 11:31
    +6

    Spending $300b to cut a bit off people poor choices is pretty dumb.

    If your degree has so little value that it can't pay your loan/HECS, why should I pay for it?

    • garddn on 31/08/2022 - 22:04

      Nailed it, this is ozbargain, why should we pay for other people's poor life choices, that's no bargain!

  • Ughhh on 30/08/2022 - 11:35
    +1

    Lol try reading your sources properly first before being outraged.

  • teacherer on 30/08/2022 - 11:35
    +4

    Why you always lying

  • Donaldhump on 30/08/2022 - 11:37
    +1

    cancelling student debt is passing the $ on to the tax payer.

    who pays the lecturers and tutors etc for this free university you want. the tax payer, or mystical gypsies and unicorns

    university is expensive but no one forcing you to go

    "Eg - you can no longer go overseas and avoid the repayments. They follow you for life"

    what like any other debt, sounds like you want to be irresponsible and bleed a free education and work in dubai the rest of your life.

    • sjj89 on 30/08/2022 - 13:14
      +1

      It was debt. The money had already been paid by the government

      No new income required

      • Donaldhump on 30/08/2022 - 13:25

        you have a debt to the government??!!!

        • sjj89 on 30/08/2022 - 15:46
          +1

          That’s what the US debts are, they are just handled predominantly by private agencies.

          But the debt is to the US government

        • sjj89 on 30/08/2022 - 15:47
          +1

          In other words, the government is writing off ~$300bn as a loss on the books.
          They aren’t paying out ~$300bn of cash

  • Muzeeb on 30/08/2022 - 11:38
    +12

    Slavoz is being oddly quiet. Normally he hangs around to strongly defend his stance. Maybe he realised he didn't research this one well.

    • pegaxs on 30/08/2022 - 11:55
      +17

      Passed out because his MAGA hat is on too tight…

      • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 12:37
        +1

        MAGA that supports free education funded by the Government?

        That is quite the identity crisis.

  • mbck on 30/08/2022 - 11:41
    +1

    Slav has competition. Needs to out-outrageous the other

  • prisonmike on 30/08/2022 - 11:47
    +3

    Short answer no. American system is all broken just like their imperial system.

  • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 12:00
    +1

    pay-the-full-amount-yourself-on-layby scheme

    You think students are paying the full amount? Not even close.

    Most are Commonwealth Supported Places.

  • whatwasherproblem on 30/08/2022 - 12:04
    +1

    America just cancelled a massive wave of student debt, essentially making college free for young students.

    He only 'cancelled' like $10-20k of it, which given the cost of tuition over in the States is basically nothing.

    This is the good end for us based funposters, @SlavOz. Watch as the dementia patient-in-chief goes on to tout this as a victory when his puppeteer he has only managed to piss off both sides of the aisle. The Republicans are (correctly) seething that this old fossil keeps wasting taxpayer money on stuff like this when there are much more pressing financial matters, and the majority of the Democrat base are (correctly) seething that this is very likely all the student loan debt they can expect to ever get from the geriatric sniffer and that Biden will just coast on this philanthropic gesture for the next 2 years or the rest of his life (whichever comes first).

    • CrowReally on 30/08/2022 - 12:24

      Hide thy spaghetti, reddit-fan.

  • JDMcarfan on 30/08/2022 - 12:06
    +7

    OP not sure what your on about. Nearly all Australian students are on Commonwealth Supported Places and go to uni at heavily subsidised rates (approx. 75% off).
    The uni degree I did cost me approx. 10k per year whilst international students paid around 40k, and after gov reforms in 2020 now cost approx.:
    -14k for domestic students
    -48k for international students.

    The government already pays 70% of the uni fees for my degree (the most expensive band, being a non-STEM degree), irrespective of pass/fail/ever getting a job in that field.
    On top of that the government offers nearly all domestic students the option of HECS-HELP loans. These loans:
    - Allow you to finance the degree using your potential future earnings (and only after reaching quite a reasonable threshold for income)
    - Are effectively interest rate free (with interest equal to inflation)
    - Don't explicitly require payment if you leave Australia, die or otherwise never earn enough to earn beyond the threshold

    This system allows for the most practically equal opportunity for any Australian to study (without ripping a black hole sized dent in the budget). Can't ask for any more than that!

    P.S. I personally think that this system is already too lenient for some and think it would be sound economic policy to incorporate things like lower income thresholds for repayment, requiring complete payment to be made around 10 years after completion, and having lower subsidies for students who fail/don't find any gainful employment (i.e. retirees / FT housewives/househusbands). Some of the funds saved could go towards HECS-scholarships towards more critical areas needed for the economy (ones that currently have shortages of employees). Again this last bit is all my own opinion.

      • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 13:01
        +8

        You know universities release annual reports? They don't have 75% profit margins.

        You also know that universities compete internationally for students (who don't get the subsidy) and need to price their degrees appropriately and competitively? Although, I'm sure that the price of education being a global conspiracy is outside your mental reach.

        • moar bargains on 30/08/2022 - 13:04
          +1

          It's Big Education that's ripping us all off! We should rise up against them! How dare they educate us!

        • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 13:06
          -8

          Australian unis have the highest paid deans and chancellors in the world. They're doing quite well.

          As for what's recorded as "profit", nothing a good accountant can't fix up.

          International students - pretty sure the unis know it's just Chinese billionaires sending over their least favourite son. They don't need to compete on price. If someone wants to study in Australia, they're going to do it because of the opportunity, lifestyle, prestige, etc. They're not shopping on price and coupons.

          • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 13:19
            +4

            @SlavOz:

            As for what's recorded as "profit", nothing a good accountant can't fix up.

            They are set up by the states and audited by the auditor-general or equivalent. OMG it just occurred to me, THEY ARE IN ON THE SCAM TOO!!!!

            And China has 539 billionaires. Assuming everyone of them has at least 2 sons, with one being the least favourite, I think we have a few more than 539 international students. Check Mate!

            • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 13:28
              -3

              @happydude:

              They are set up by the states and audited by the auditor-general or equivalent.

              Which would be an issue if they were doing anything illegal, which I'm sure they're not. They are following the tax laws, which happen to be set up to favor very rich corporations.

              Plenty of books get audited but that doesn't stop major corporations skimping on their taxes by siphoning their money through different channels, ie charities, deductions, CEO dinners etc. Politicians do this all the time with their own money.

              And China has 539 billionaires

              Pretty sure millionaires could foot the bill for a gender studies course at UNSW too, as well as all the assistance provided by the CCP who like having students on the inside.

              • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 13:31
                +1

                @SlavOz: FMD…. There are no corporations taxes to pay. They are part of the state government.

                What you are saying is… the state government is ripping off the federal government. And they are all in on it.

                This is incomprehensible garbage.

          • Lastchancetosee on 31/08/2022 - 11:04
            +1

            @SlavOz: You do realise that racism takes the form of stereotyping, so a whole people is reduced to a homogeneous caricature. A considerable number of international students have to work while they study here to pay for housing and food.

      • moar bargains on 30/08/2022 - 13:14
        +17

        What's your game plan here Slavvy? Are you trying to make yourself look as ignorant as possible in as many different industries as possible? Are you grinding for an incomprehension achievement?

        • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 13:42
          +3

          Porque no los dos?

          • moar bargains on 30/08/2022 - 13:45
            +4

            @happydude: I don't even understand his perspective here. I think he's arguing with himself 😂
            On the one hand, he seems to want to have students paying less = education subsidised more by the government. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to want more money to go to those evil fat cat universities rolling in profits. Neither of which really fit his regular narrative position. The mind boggles

            • Ughhh on 30/08/2022 - 14:30
              +4

              @moar bargains: I think he has come to realise that he's actually a leftie. This confusion and identity crisis must be killing him.

              • moar bargains on 30/08/2022 - 14:32

                @Ughhh: Maybe he's a circly? Spinning round and round like a roulette wheel and no one knows which colour he's going to land on for a given day?

              • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 14:35
                +4

                @Ughhh: I think so, since he's now proposing free higher education

                Seems he's leaning pretty close to being a hippy. Next minute he'll be getting married to his bf

                • SBOB on 30/08/2022 - 15:33
                  +1

                  @spackbace:

                  Seems he's leaning pretty close to being a hippy

                  I think they are a closet Socialist but just too embarrassed to admit it.

  • TEER3X on 30/08/2022 - 12:12
    +1

    Mrs paid off her debt a couple of years ago in one lump sum, would've been nice to have known… Could have gotten a $10k discount.

    Will hold on to my HECS debt forever

  • 2jzzzz on 30/08/2022 - 12:21

    Like Victoria and nurses?

    • Baysew on 30/08/2022 - 17:51
      +2

      Yes, I like both.

      • duchy on 31/08/2022 - 09:36

        Touché

      • pformag on 31/08/2022 - 17:04
        +1

        Victoria Secret Nurses

  • SnowDragon on 30/08/2022 - 12:41
    +6

    I'm actually surprised you're asking this question as you seem to be implying that Uni should be free, which shocks me because that would be detrimental to your alt-right agenda.

    Cheaper/free education = more people going to higher ed who usually wouldn't = more critical and analytical thinking = more liberal and progressive views

    • thanatos350 on 01/09/2022 - 10:48

      I admittedly thought I was tripping out a little when I saw who OP was.

  • djones145 on 30/08/2022 - 12:41
    +1

    default position is slavoz pays for all his great ideas

    u got a spare 100 bn to cancel all debt?

  • DemocracyManifest on 30/08/2022 - 12:43

    'Legal challenges are virtually certain': the yanks priorities are totally cooked
    And 10k won't do a hell of a lot for many, their system is awful
    But yeah having your first degree at least discharged/wiped would help many, even conditional on you having finished it overall, I think that would be a good policy. I bounced around a bit but finished recently

  • Seraphin7 on 30/08/2022 - 12:49
    +1

    I am very comfortable with tertiary education being self-funded. There needs to be an understanding that if you want to study "x" then the costs and benefits of that decision need be enjoyed by that person … you shouldn't expect a free kick into a high paying career any more than the taxpayer should be expected to fund your multi-year analysis of basket weaving through the middle ages.

    That said, I would be happy for the government to determine that some vocations are not attracting sufficient students and those courses be adequately subsidised. Perhaps with the "catch" of adequate course progression and "x" years of service to that vocation following graduation to qualify for the subsidy.

  • Gros21 on 30/08/2022 - 12:51

    why shouldn't hecs debt follow you? You shouldn't be able to rack up a massive bill then piss off overseas for a few years and it magicly dissapear.

    Odes it follow you with your partner eg get 50k of hecs get married then get knocked up and never plan to return to work. While your partner earns good money. Cause it should same as if you purchased a car just before you got knocked up.

    Anyone going to uni should be smart enough to know about hecs and how it works.

    Its dirt cheap here in AUS compared to USA so we should be grateful for what we have

    • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 13:01
      -5

      I don't have a problem with HECS following. It shouldn't magically disappear if you move overseas, but the issue I take is when the Australian government tries to control people living outside of its jurisdiction.

      So now when you go overseas, you have to tell the ATO if you're working and how much you earn.

      I mean, anyone dumb enough to do that deserves to be punished with the extra fees. For any normal person, it's clearly an optional. Just don't say anything. They can't find out, and even if they do, what are they are gonna do about it? Ask the Italian government to extradite you?

      • Gros21 on 30/08/2022 - 13:08

        If they are an aussie citizen i be leave they are still required to fill out a tax return here, even if its basically no longer considered a tax citizen for tax reasons.

        Well when they/if they move back to aus they should be punished and forced to pay it back.

        You cant just rake up a massive debt then piss off accross the world.

        For 50k or what ever they set the limit at they should extradite you for tax fraud/evasion

        • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 13:37
          -3

          Extradite someone for a $50k tax debt? LOL good luck with that.

          You're not "pissing off across the world" , you're working in a foreign country, getting paid a foreign currency into a foreign bank account based on the foreign cost of living.

          I really don't see which part of that is the Australian government's business. Why should anyone pay tax twice? Once is already a rort.

          • Gros21 on 30/08/2022 - 13:41
            +1

            @SlavOz: I do not want them to pay tax twice simply pay the ammount (with fees) they agreed to when they got the hecs debt.

            its not double taxing at all. Simply using the tax system to pay back debt owed to the ATO

            Australia has a tax treaty with a fair few countrys to avoid this.

            • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 14:17
              -2

              @Gros21: But if someone is working overseas, they'll be paying taxes in that country plus the tax they owe to the Australian government for their HECS. So they are getting double taxed.

              If you ever need to move overseas for family or medical reasons, it's an absolute rort to expect someone to pay Australian taxes on their Mexican or Afghani income. Way to cash grab the working/lower class. Nobody agreed to that when signed up. These rules were only recently introduced.

              But like I said, anyone stupid enough to follow this only has themselves to blame.

              • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 14:20
                +6

                @SlavOz: So you'd rather they get an education here, taking a spot from someone else, incur a hecs debt, then go overseas with the education they've learnt from here?

                Not only will the university/government be worse off by them not paying fees, but the education they gave them now goes outside the country, as well as they took the place of someone who could've then used that education to get a job locally.

                The only winners to that are the student themselves, and the country they move to.

                • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 14:29
                  -3

                  @spackbace:

                  Taking a spot from someone else

                  Not happening. You earn your way into uni through good marks and/or taking on the debt. That entitles you to a spot. You haven't been given one at the expense of anyone.

                  Not only will the university/government be worse off

                  Oh, those poor millionaire institutions and politicians. Such an injustice 🤣

                  The only winners to that are the student themselves,

                  Exactly. They spent years sacrificing to complete a course. Why shouldn't they get the bulk of the benefit? It's their education.

                  You're literally upset that a working class taxpayer is benefitting more than our rich elites. Come on man.

                  and the country they move to.

                  What if they move to Ukraine? We're already sending billions of Aussie tax money there, what's another $50k between war buddies.

                  • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 14:34
                    +1

                    @SlavOz:

                    Not happening. You earn your way into uni through good marks and/or taking on the debt. That entitles you to a spot. You haven't been given one at the expense of anyone.

                    Unis only take in a certain number of students, this is what determines the minimum cut-off. You're absolutely taking someone's spot.

                    Oh, those poor millionaire institutions and politicians. Such an injustice 🤣

                    Right, so take a guess where they claw back the money from. Hint - it's not their own pockets.

                    Exactly. They spent years sacrificing to complete a course.

                    Sacrificing what exactly? Their time? Because they haven't sacrificed their cash if they're borrowing it.

                    Tell you what, how about you pay even more tax than you are now to subsidise someone's higher education, would you like to do that?

                    Because if you want free education, that's what happens

                    • SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 15:29

                      @spackbace:

                      Unis only take in a certain number of students, this is what determines the minimum cut-off.

                      Sure, there are student limits per semester. But it's not like there's a massive que of students who are eligible or willing to go to uni. Those with the marks can easily get a spot.

                      Right, so take a guess where they claw back the money from.

                      That's only because we let them. If we stop obeying their cash-grab laws, they'll be forced to use our money more responsibly instead of just paying themselves and their mates massive salaries and expecting us to foot the bill.

                      Sacrificing what exactly? Their time?

                      Yes. Time, effort, cost of textbooks and equipment, travel money, accommodation fees, etc.

                      It's absolutely their education because they take on all the risk. If they fail, they still owe a massive debt. The government gets their money either way.

                      Because if you want free education, that's what happens

                      Might as well say people who receive free medical treatment shouldn't be able to piss off overseas either. How dare they sponge off the Aussie taxpayer and then take their healthy bodies elsewhere. Medicare is supposed be so we have healthy citizens in our own country.

              • Miss B on 31/08/2022 - 00:40

                @SlavOz:

                But if someone is working overseas, they'll be paying taxes in that country plus the tax they owe to the Australian government for their HECS. So they are getting double taxed.

                So the same as if they're working here. There's tax and then there's the HECS repayments on top of the normal tax amount.

    • whatwasherproblem on 30/08/2022 - 15:01
      +3

      Anyone going to uni should be smart enough to know about hecs and how it works.

      Bro, I once knew a chick at uni that wondered why "homeless people don't just buy a rice cooker and cart it around with them so they can have rice whenever they want". Presumably she thought they could just siphon power from somewhere and heat public bathroom water or something.

      Acceptance to university is neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition for intelligence.

  • MrRobot on 30/08/2022 - 13:31
    +19

    I am American and had to pay back all of the debt that I incurred when studying (BA & MS). In my opinion, the HECS system is amazing simply because it enables everyone to pursue higher education if they wish. There are many people in America who would like to go to school, but simply can't afford it. Few individuals in the US can pay outright for Uni, therefore they must resort to loans. These loans are provided by individual institutions as well as the US government. As a result, there are significant differences:

    1. You don't borrow the entire amount all at once, instead you borrow what you need to pay for the courses in a given Semester. However the interest on the money borrowed starts accruing immediately.

    2. There is no minimum salary threshold to pay the borrowed money back. Most loans have a 6 month grace period after you graduate, then you start getting bills in the mail, regardless of your employment status or how much you earn.

    3. Many lenders use variable interest rates.

    4. Lenders will often sell your debt to other lenders, which often results in different interest rates To give you an example, I borrowed approximately $30,000 dollars (US) from a single lender. By the time I paid off my loans, three separate companies were managing my debt, all three of which had different interest rates, none of which were my original lender.

    It took me nine years to pay back my loan ($30K USD) and I paid roughly double ($55K USD). The entire time I scrimped, saved and worked as hard as I could to make sure I was paying them down as fast as possible. It felt good to pay it all back, but I was left with nothing. No money for a home deposit, or a new car. I had made no significant purchases so I had no assets to qualify for any major loans. Student debt in America can hang over people for their entire lives. To give you some perspective, my brother, who recently graduated from Uni, has almost $100,000 in debt, all of which is accruing interest as I type this.

    Biden cancelling $10K is a godsend for some people, for others it will be a little bit of relief but won't do much when you consider the interest that builds on such a large amount. I agree with people, if you sign your name to borrow, you should pay it back. That being said, the process in America is confusing and can be crippling. At 17 years old I certainly didn't understand what exactly I was getting myself into.

    HECS is an amazing gift of opportunity, which will result in a lot of people getting degrees to work higher paying jobs which means they will pay more taxes and spend more of their income which results in an overall healthier economy. That being said, I think that the minimum salary threshold should be eliminated or lowered (unless you have dependents).

    • Gros21 on 30/08/2022 - 13:44
      -6

      at 17 you didnt know about how loans worked?

      While i agree it should not be sold off or chopped and changed, and all efforts it should be made clear you will owe xxxx at x% interest rate.

      I think our unis are pretty heavily subsidised by the govt hence international students pay more.

      • MrRobot on 30/08/2022 - 13:58
        +4

        At 17 I was not fluent in the ways the student loan industry operated in America, no. These companies don't really want you to pay back the principle, they prefer to keep you in debt in order to keep charging you interest. I was naive to think otherwise. To be honest, I don't think my parents at the time really knew what was going on, as the de-regulatory nature of the American ethos gave way to more predatory loan practices than they experienced when they went to school.

  • leiiv on 30/08/2022 - 15:09
    +5

    The poll is just wrong. The uni is not free in the America, far from it..
    This is ignorance at the highest level, or plainly spreading misinformation just because $10k is written off, ONCE OFF.

    America's Germany is better - uni should be free

  • Poor Ass on 30/08/2022 - 23:54
    +3

    "Eg - you can no longer go overseas and avoid the repayments. They follow you for life."

    Even if they do go overseas it is still an outstanding debt so nothing new. Compulsory repayments are an % structured around income so no reportable income no repayment. That's the flaw because it's only income assessed and not asset assessed.

    You probably read some article on news.com.au and now brainwashed

    • Fobsessive on 30/08/2022 - 23:55

      SlavOz is the brainwasher

      • Poor Ass on 30/08/2022 - 23:56

        Next level stuff beyond all of us

  • Fobsessive on 30/08/2022 - 23:55
    +1

    No, opposite of a bargain.

  • liongalahad on 31/08/2022 - 02:26
    +1

    In Europe higher education is mostly free, or really cheap, as it's mostly public and not private. So as a result most people can afford higher education without having to start your adult life with a huge debt on your back. I feel that's the right way. And in my experience the education level in Europe is also a lot higher than here (personally, here in Oz I find the level of preparation of most graduates I have to deal with for my job quite shocking ). So not only free (or cheap) but better (albeit much more challenging).

  • Ronerrlaw on 31/08/2022 - 07:18

    I have two degrees, I would not be able to be employeed in my roles without higher education. The salary versus the repayments have worked for me, and I am happy to pay back my debt.

    However, there needs to be stronger regulations of universities as they are turning into degree mills.

    The government needs to develop policies to match supply of required skills, with future demand. Not every degree will "guarantee" a job, which is where alternatives lay such as trade schools.

    Noting the above, some people are very successful with their own businesses without any further education, but these could be considered outliners.

    • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 09:28
      -2

      Noting the above, some people are very successful with their own businesses without any further education, but these could be considered outliners.

      Outliers*. I know fully qualified tradies can easily start their own business without any tertiary education. I'd assume that they would earn more than a lot of uni graduates, particularly early on in life. These tradies can be fully qualified by around 21 and perhaps running their own business by 25.

      • Ronerrlaw on 31/08/2022 - 11:38

        Tradies take further education by going to tafe and on the job training.

  • Thaal Sinestro on 31/08/2022 - 07:18
    -3

    University fees in Australia (HECS debt) should be increased across the board for most degrees except, perhaps, those courses where Australia really need more skilled employees. The number of subsidized courses needs to be decreased. We already have far too many people with law/psychology/junk science/gender studies/economics degrees. Degrees often enable a person to earn high salaries, like $400,000 a year for doctors, so they most definitely should not be free.

    Also we have far too many people going to university; what we need is more tradesmen and more nursing home staff, neither of which require university education.

    • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 09:29
      +1

      We need more teachers, engineers, nurses; all require a university education.

      • ozbjunkie on 31/08/2022 - 10:03
        +1

        Do we need more teachers?
        Or do we need better conditions for teachers so they aren't kept casual for years on end, and end up leaving the industry?

        • Eeples on 31/08/2022 - 12:14

          Teachers are not being ‘kept casual’.

          Some casual teachers want to stay casual, others are not prepared to move house.

        • Zondor on 31/08/2022 - 14:18

          Which requires reducing class sizes and lightening their load so they don't spend every day doing marking and planning… Which requires more teachers…

        • UNO on 31/08/2022 - 19:06

          100%. If teachers were paid more then I am sure there would be more people wanting to be teachers.

          • Ughhh on 31/08/2022 - 20:06

            @UNO: But you also don't want people becoming teachers just for the money.

  • WreckTangle on 31/08/2022 - 07:21
    +1

    Plenty of better educational systems in the world to aspire to. Not America’s tho lol

  • DarkOz on 31/08/2022 - 07:56

    Can we be less like Murica please?

  • gromit on 31/08/2022 - 08:16
    +2

    America didn't make it free lol, They cancelled a small portion of students debt, they cancelled between $10k and $20k of debt for some students, the average student debt is around $30k and can be in the 100's of thousands for the top uni's. The only reason the average is so low is families save their entire childs life to try and not burden them with massive debt.

    Aspiring to be like the US system is aspiring to give students decades of debt, our system is far more generous than the US already.

    I suspect SlavOz could have used a few more years of english lessons so he could have read the full details on what debt the US cancelled.

    PS: I do think some degrees do need to be more like the US, i.e. the student pays a lot more, degrees that are purely for the students enjoyment etc or don't have any realistic prospects of future employement.

    • SlavOz on 31/08/2022 - 09:00

      Aspiring to be like the US system is aspiring to give students decades of debt

      Which is different to Australia…how exactly?

      • gromit on 31/08/2022 - 09:02
        +1

        The size of the debt is much larger in the US. Australia is already cheaper than the US to study. Yet you want to make it more expensive by becoming like the US?

        • SlavOz on 31/08/2022 - 09:06
          -3

          I won't comment on the price difference because it's comparing apples to oranges. Studying at Harvard is obviously a lot more worthwhile than studying at University of Sydney.

          I never said our system should be more expensive, I just asked if we could do what America is doing and forgive the student debt (albeit a portion of it).

          So if the average debt is $30k, that means students are having a third of their debt chopped off. Why don't we do that? Not that I'm in favour of it, just wanted to see what others think since Ozbargain is usually very fond of free shit.

          I remember a few months back I suggested dental treatment should remained NOT covered by Medicare, and everyone had a meltdown lol. Nobody cared about the nuance of the situation, it was just "make my teeth free right nao!!!"

          • gromit on 31/08/2022 - 09:15
            +1

            @SlavOz: students aren't having a 3rd of their debt chopped off, for most that fall into the category to qualify for the 10k they have debts much much higher than 30k as they never achieved the income levels from their degree to pay it off.. The average student debt in Australia is just over 9k, in US dollars that is less than a quarter of their debt. our system is far fairer than the US, debt there is only so low because it is well known and people save for decades to afford to send their children to uni. Studying at Harvard is going to run you a bill of over $200k AUD for any 3 year degree, more than double Sydney Uni.

            PS: you said "America just cancelled a massive wave of student debt, essentially making college free for young students." obviously that was completed false and was just your inability to read. so lets excuse that.

            But you also said "Should we do the same as 'Murica, or keep our existing pay-the-full-amount-yourself-on-layby scheme?" To do as America is to increase costs not reduce them.

            and FYI, The US student debt also follows you around the world, not only that but unlike Australia the US will still tax you as a US citizen even when living abroad.

            • lancesta on 31/08/2022 - 09:22

              @gromit: Uni fees in Australia are fixed. Pretty sure it doesn't matter if I go to Sydney or Adelaide uni it's all relative.

              This is probably semi controversial but imo some courses should be free for in demand roles (aka anything that we have on our so called "skills shortage" list for visas). Sure if you fail the course, the second attempt you pay for it. And yes you can't just do 100 uni degrees for in demand roles but I can't get over importing jobs when we have people here to that would be trained if they had the support

              • gromit on 31/08/2022 - 09:30

                @lancesta: I don't disagree with that, funding in demand occupations makes sense, however it is only good for addressing long term shortages, many skills we need now, not in 5-8 years once they have finished their degrees and skilled up in the chosen profession, can only really address that through immigration and importing the skills.

                • lancesta on 31/08/2022 - 09:42

                  @gromit: Yeah completely true. But in 5-8 years maybe we won't still have a shortage of the same roles if we do something about it. A lot of the shortages we have now we've had for a while.

                  It definitely wouldn't cover everything though, so there will always be a role for immigration and temporary work visas to cover skills shortages.

                  But simple examples I can think of is teaching (particularly science (physics), maths, engineering e.c.t.), nursing, doctors and some types of engineers, even trades like becoming a chef. The list of occupations we have a shortage of is actually insanely long, in some ways I think it's artificially long.

                  Education degrees are like 3 years, there's even reduced programs where teachers will work while they are studying (to help cover shortages). Nursing is around the same. Someone can become a chef and instantly start working and relieving the skills shortage.

                  Occasionally a profession may no longer be in demand, so offering retraining into something in demand is also something we could approach a little better.

                  Even if we got 100% employment and all of the jobs were skilled e.c.t we'd still have a shortage so I'm definitely not saying importation of jobs isn't required.

                  • gromit on 31/08/2022 - 09:46

                    @lancesta: The problems with many of those areas isn't the degree costs or lack of people, it is the profession itself that doesn't have the incentives to keep people. Teachers for instance have some of the highest drop out rates and they stuggle to retain new teachers, you can't fix that by trying to push more people into a broken system. But yes encouraging those core courses would be a positive, but much more than that needs to be done to ever have a hope of addressing the shortages.

                    • lancesta on 31/08/2022 - 09:54

                      @gromit: Oh yeah that definitely is another issue in itself. One which probably won't be fixed by importing heaps of foreign teachers or anything like that either.

                      They also expect teachers to work long periods for free when they're training, which isn't easy for a lot of people. I don't think that makes any sense when there's a shortage. Surely they could just get the teacher assistant daily rate during their internship. I definitely think this huge increase in administration workload doesn't help them at all. Think the union has fallen short there. I mean one of the most rediculous things I've heard is they pay for their own police check (sure I guess that's fine) but it's yearly. Shouldn't they just flag it straight away rather than waiting a year, they pay their employer to go to work. Like that makes no sense. Do police pay police for a police check too lol

                      There's definitely other areas like doctors where we still see high demand (students wise) but apparently there isn't enough training locations to offer enough places to meet demand, so that definitely needs to be looked into.

                      Know it isn't as easy as tossing in a free uni course to solve the problem but there's more to be done

  • Big Lez on 31/08/2022 - 08:53

    There needs to be some middle ground where debts aren't indexed and the unis are more regulated. Like who tf expects to pay the same fees when studying online vs attending at campus.

  • lancesta on 31/08/2022 - 09:18

    If you phrased this as be more like Germany with their education system, I reckon the response would be vastly different

  • tomleonhart on 31/08/2022 - 09:19
    +2

    Oh god, another SlavOz front page thread that I clicked on. Should have checked the OP name before clicking but Ozbargain is too addictive.

  • numloxx on 31/08/2022 - 09:25
    +1

    More like Americans? No way. More like northern European countries? Yes absolutely. You can go through your entire education and pay less than $10000.

    • SlavOz on 31/08/2022 - 09:30
      -1

      That just pushes the cost of rich people's (or future rich people's) degrees onto the working class.

      Why should a middle class family living in the suburbs pay for the education of a single bachelor living on the coast? If you can't afford to rent in the most expensive cities of the most expensive country in the world, you don't need a free ride.

      • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 09:36
        +2

        What are you talking about? Weren't you all for the free education a minute ago? The "working class" have the same opportunity to study as everyone else because cost is no longer a barrier to entry.

        • SlavOz on 31/08/2022 - 09:39
          -1

          I was never for free education. I was just seeing if others we're and why/why not.

          A working class provider cannot go to uni. He has to work for his kids' education and dinner. Most are already living pay to pay and cannot afford another $30k debt.

          • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 09:44
            +1

            @SlavOz: I went to uni with a single father of two who was paying rent (admittedly in regional Vic), studying full time and living off centrelink. It can be done if you really want to.

            • SlavOz on 31/08/2022 - 09:47

              @Mr Haj: You would not have been able to study at Uni if your single father had to pay for other people's university fees though.

              • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 09:52
                +1

                @SlavOz: What? Because he couldn't afford to pay for my living expenses? I paid for them myself while I was at uni haha

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