Finally got on my hand RAV4 Hybrid! What a long wait….phew
My mate told me to fill the car 98, at least for the first one year to make the machine's condition good long term - Is this true? I'm thinking to just fill it with 95, should be enough right?
Also, does fuel brand matter - for example: BP vs 7/11 - do they have different quality of the fuel?
lol not really what I was asking, just curious if that theory is true that for the first year, need to give the best quality of fuel to keep the condition good long term wise,.
98RON is NOT a measure of quality, it is a measure of knock resistance. That's it. Nothing more.
pegaxs is correct - if your engine was designed to run on 95RON then there is no benefit from running 98RON.
@iDroid: I believe the testing shows that there is a benefit, but it's disproportionately low compared to the cost increase, something like 1-2% better economy/performance for 8-15% more cost.
@TEER3X: … I thought maybe the COSCO as in as seen around on the shipping containers from China Ocean Shipping CO - wasn't aware of the ladder company
@iDroid: This. You will find no performance benefit whatsoever as your car engine is not designed to take advantage of the potential extra power.
That is, you won’t get more kW due to using 98 ron
@iDroid: My corolla is designed for 91 unleaded, I find 95 gave me better mileage. Do you think 91 will give me similar mileage if I drive it more on the highway?
@htc: You will have some minor performance gain and economy gain from going to 95. However is the gain able to offset the cost increase from 91 to 95
@spc12go: You could test the economy by properly measuring and recording your fuel consumption, there are apps. Don’t just recording how far you go on a tank. My experience is that it makes less difference than the normal variance you get between tanks due to driving conditions.
You won’t be able to feel and performance increase, it’ll only be 1-2%. Any perception of power increase is more related to mental gymnastics you get from paying more and wanting to feel good about it.
This should be an alert that pops up every time someone tries to make a post about whether to use a higher than recommended octane fuel.
@brendanm: Something like this;
“Are you about to post about 98RON fuel? Please watch this video and read this thread before posting…”
@pegaxs: Just watched the video, I am now convinced to try 91 from now on. Not only you gave advice on ev, you still have a wealth of knowledge for the ice drivers.
There is a difference. Currently, 91ron is permitted to have 3x as much sulfur content compared to 95 and 98. Sulfur breakdown your engine oil so it doesn't lube properly.
@skillet: https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/premium-fuel-vs-91-ron-vs-su…
…..
Australia has disgracefully high sulphur content in 91 RON petrol, because the Federal Government is married to the fuel industry. This is, allegedly, to keep local Australian refineries open, despite the fact they keep closing anyway.
We are a third-world nation on fuel quality. This is objectively true. In fact, some third-world nations might be better.
This non-policy leads to disgracefully high exhaust pollution levels, compared with, say, Europe, which should concern you if you live in an Australian city, because exhaust pollution kills more people prematurely in Australia than car crashes. And certainly a lot more than COVID…
@Keplaffintech: For what it's worth - just googled and found this:
https://www.tuckstruck.net/truck-and-kit/the-truck-technical….
"High sulphur fuel is a great lubricant for the fuel pumps, but when it gets into the engine oil it breaks down the oil’s lubricating properties, potentially leading to engine damage. It gets into the oil during the power stroke as a little of the fuel gets blown past the piston rings. "
No idea myself tho
There is a difference. Currently, 91ron is permitted to have 3x as much sulfur content compared to 95 and 98. Sulfur breakdown your engine oil so it doesn't lube properly.
Yes can be painful when it doesn't lube properly ¬_¬
Not a direct measure of quality but the allowed ppm of sulphur is 91 is way higher than in 95/98. So atleast in this aspect 98 is supposed to be of higher quality
@apple2016: RON is not a measure of quality. PPM is a measure of content, still not a measure of quality.
Most of the time, 91 and 98 come from the same batch, just 98 has more anti-knock additive mixed in to give it the higher knock resistance.
And the sulphur PPM scale is "up to" not "a minimum of", so you could have some 91 that is 26PPM and at another servo, 98 that is 34PPM, making the 98 dirtier than the 91.
There is no way in knowing, by looking at the RON on the pump, that you could know what the PPM of sulphur is for any given fuel at a fuel station, unless you took a sample and got it tested by a lab.
@pegaxs: On average sulfur is higher in 91 compared to 95/98. They don't come from the same batch
see page 28
https://www.aip.com.au/sites/default/files/download-files/20…
This is an article from Feb 2021. There are many new cars fitted with Petrol Particulate Filter so if you have one I recommend RON95 until at least mid December 2024 where all sulfur will be 10ppm. This is not about performance but protecting your exhaust system.
https://fordauthority.com/2022/02/new-ford-vehicles-in-austr…
FoMoCo confirmed to Drive that this is in fact the case for a number of new Ford vehicles including the current-gen Ford Escape, Puma, Focus/Focus ST, and Fiesta/Fiesta ST. Ford officially recommends that owners use 95-octane fuel in these vehicles, as 91-octane contains far too much sulfur, which can damage the filters over time. This may not sound like a big deal, but replacement filters can cost as much as $4,000, which compensates for the extra cost of premium gas.
just curious if that
theoryMyth is true
FTFY
Its not going to improve Your engine or save you money. It might give you few extra kms but will not justify spending extra cash.
Lol it's a Rav 4 not a Ferrari, having an on time service would be more beneficial…
What does the manufacturer recommend, as opposed to your "mate"?
Car is tuned for 91, simple as that
Its Toyota bruh.. it runs on piss.
To OP, you're fine with 91. It ain't gonna void the warranty.
95 is generally recommended as min for Japanese cars with turbo engines. 98 is for European cars.
Cause you won't be driving it as much because fuel costs too much?
how about the fuel quality between each brand? e.g does BP fuel better than 7/11?
Before I had the work car, I found BP got my mileage on my Corolla versus Caltex. That's just my experience though.
They all come from the same terminals. There is no difference between brands.
@cute as duck: Not exactly true - each brand may have different "additives" even if from the same refinery/terminal. BP Ultimate 98 is not the same as Shell V-power 98.
But your bank account won't
As Darth would say, the placebo force is strong with this one….
Buy the ads on tv said it was true!
Ahh there we go;
I miss my peanuts ;)
Only took a couple of my comments to get Nobby's triggered :D Surprised my lawn mower comments didn't get it out sooner.
Statements like this need to be qualified.
In this particular case, disqualified.
The First Year for Brand New Vehicle
What happen if you don't?
Just put whatever manufacturer recommend.
Biggest scam I used to believe. Lol. Had my forester 2020 and been told to always use 98 which I did for a year. I switched to normal unleaded and now getting extra miles for the same trip.
You won’t get extra miles using normal leaded for the same trip, but you will get extra miles out of your wallet.
I have a RAV4 hybrid.. Been filling it up with Shell's 92 since day one and no issues, at least so far. Been to regular services with Toyota and they've not indicated that there's issue with the engine etc.
If you insist on 98, I was told (too) by a friend that BP is better than Shell in that Shell just mix in the extra stuff where BP prepare it from the get go. Do your own research - I can't attest to the legitimacy of the claim.
There is absolutely NO difference between BP, Shell, Mobil etc… in their 98 Octane fuels.It is all advertising spin, nothing else.
You know it all comes from the same terminals right? There's literally no difference in the 'purity'
@BobbyD2500: I was under the impression that different brands, while sourcing from the same refineries, can and do put their own additives in fuel. Not that I've ever noticed a difference between them mind you, just what I remember hearing or seeing.
@foxpants: Yes the additives that are added to get 95 or 98 RON fuel differ between brands.
In theory it shouldn't matter which one you use, I used to avoid 91 and use any brand of 95 or 98 simply because of the lower sulphur content.
@BobbyD2500: Err no..please do your research. Like others have said each company does things a bit differently.
@mrvaluepack: But the tanker going to shell draws from the same tank as does BP. The additives make almost no difference but justify marketing departments and fuel some people's perceptions.
Uh but all would have to comply with the standards set out in our fuel quality legislation yeah.
https://www.energy.gov.au/government-priorities/energy-secur….
But all the car nuts say BP ultimate is best?
BP Ultimate has cleaners. I put a tank thru my bikes if the carbs play up. (Old Hondas with 4 carbs)
They all have ‘cleaners’.(fact)
the gas station gives 0 (profanity) where the fuel comes from. They make 0$ from gas. these people should all be asking which servo has the best pies. All the fuel is the same except for what its rated as. You wanna do something good wear a rebreather when you fill your tank up. Those gas fumes are bad for you.
Lol there's no truth to that at all. The number is the octane rating, which refers to how resistant to knock the fuel is. 98 has a higher resistance to knock than 91, which allows engines which are tuned for 98 to run more aggressive timing and make a bit more power. On 91 these engines would knock. Knock means the fuel would combust before the car wants it to.
Use whatever fuel your car has written on the fuel door. That is what it is tuned for. You won't get any benefit at all by using 98, because your car is not tuned for it.
E85 technically has an extremely high octane rating, like 105… but you don't see people putting that into cars that are not tuned to take e85.
awesome, thanks for explaining.
No worries :)
People will say otherwise, but really your car has to be designed to make use of the better fuel, don't worry about it if not!
Another more intuitive term for knock is 'resistance to detonation', ie how much compression you can apply to the fuel before it self ignites, as like the commenter above said if this happens early (before the spark plug fires) is not how the engine works. As a general rule you can go up in octane but not down and the ECU will compensate. There's no mechanical benifit to running higher octane fuel. They do claim 98 also has chemicals to clean injectors etc which I'd take with a grain of salt. Your car may produce very slightly more power, you can run a tank though it if your curious but I expect you'll find its not worth it and mileage, although slightly better, won't be net benefit with regard to the additional cost of the more expensive 98 fuel.
which allows engines which are tuned for 98
My Toyota’s ECU adjusts timings automatically depending on fuel. If you only use 98 it will run more efficiently after a while, like month. Process is very slow and can be reset back by a single 95 fill.
Which Toyota model?
Prado 120, pretty old. I think others do it too.
your car has a sensor to determine the gas you put in it? bullshit.
Lol, no Google? It is the knocks. ECU senses them and adjusts timings.
This ↑
Lots of folks mistake higher RON for "more power" but that's a super common misconception.
They also mistake RON to mean "cleaner" where that isnt what it means at all…
Actually, it does give you more power. If your engine is able to compress the fuel-air mixture high enough. But if you don't have an engine with a high enough compression ratio, then the higher RON rating is just a waste.
100%. I was putting 98 in my Alfa since I remember but last service I got TOLD to drop back to 95, as that is the ideal fuel for the car and what it is tuned to. There's no performance benefit (sadly).
I'd describe it more as "designed" rather than "tuned".
The fuel RON rating is directly related to the compression ratio of your engine. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the RON rating you'll need in your car.
The corollary is, if you use a higher rated fuel than your car is designed for, you get no improvement. You can't change the compression ratio in the engine. Not unless you get a different engine. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't offer any benefit at all. Well, unless it's a super hot day, and your engine is running hot. Then, a higher rated fuel may help prevent your engine from crossing that subtle knock boundary.
There are many ways of changing compression ratio without changing engine - head gasket thickness, shave heads, different heads altogether, valve angle, piston dome, dish, etc.
“Forced induction”
@dassaur: I think pegaxs was getting at changing the compression level, not compression ratio. Which reducing forced induction would do. And fair point, it'd help with knocking.
@deek: Sorry I don't know what you mean by compression level VS compression ratio?
Are you talking about amount of boost in a FI?
Im not sure how changing one part = different engine, but sure let's go with it.
Your examples significantly change the engine, so for my argument, it fits into the "different engine" description.
But, you do have a good point. Variable valve timing can result in a change of compression ratio. Though I don't know of any engine designed to use VVT for the purpose of reducing knocking or pre-ignition.
Yep, boost. Compression level / pressure generated from compression ratio plus initial pressure difference vs atmosphere, as opposed to pressure generated by compression ratio alone.
Modifying an engine and changing aspects so it is different from stock, makes it a different engine. Especially when you're changing the heart of the engine, like cylinder volume, piston head, valves, etc. Not sure where the confusion is.
@deek: The plain meaning of your words. You said 'unless you get a different engine'
Modifying an engine doesn't make it a different engine, it makes the engine different.
But if you want to keep going with your logic, when your point was proven incorrect according to its plain meaning which I am fairly certain was also your intended meaning, then nothing I can say will stop you.
For example, do you really think changing only the head gasket means you have a different engine!!???
This is what you are arguing for in your above comments.
Also have a RAV Hybrid and run it on 95 with the occasional tank of 98.
You would get more benefit if you stick to either. Every time you change fuel type it takes a while for the Car’s ECU to re-calculate air fuel mixture which results in less than ideal performance and efficiency. Current model RAV4 Hybrids are tuned to run on unleaded (including E10) so you won’t really get any benefit using higher RON rated fuel.
My mate told me to fill the car 98, at least for the first one year to make the machine's condition good long term - Is this true?
was your friend an executive at a fuel company?
Use the fuel your car manufacturer specifies. If U91 is sufficient, 98 is just making placebo based donations to your local fuel company.
LOL… what does it say in the owners manual or inside the fuel flap?
Your mate is just another one of those "98RON iS BeSt fUeL" peanuts. If your car doesn't require it, no point in running it.
My only siggestions is to not run E10 in hybrids, because they use fuel at a much slower rate and E10 can soak up condensation if it sits around too long.
lol ikr..I was confused too when I heard that.
My only siggestions is to not run E10 in hybrids, because they use fuel at a much slower rate and E10 can soak up condensation if it sits around too long.
95 should enough then right?
What part of “what does your owners manual/fuel flap say?” did you not read?
Run what your manufacturer recommends.
You can run 95, even if the car only requires 91, but you are basically burning money for no noticeable benefit, or any benefit for that matter.
What part of “what does your owners manual/fuel flap say?” did you not read?
So scary :(
@Taro Milk Tea: Did you read your owners manual or go out and have a look behind the fuel flap? What did it say?
It’s like extracting teeth…
What damage can be done using 91 for a 95 minimum requirement?
@Peanut money: Detonation or pinging, basically the air-fuel mixture pre ignites before actual combustion taking place. Car runs roughly in good cases, can cause engine damage in severe cases
@Peanut money: What Rapt0r said.
But I’ll add “loss of performance” and possibly “increased fuel consumption.”
well it's not going to void your warranty if you use 95 if that's what you're asking.