Large Australian Employer (10,000+ Employees) Won't Accept Digital Medical Certs from Today Onwards

jimbobaus on 13/01/2023 - 21:26
Last edited 14/01/2023 - 09:44 by 1 other user

So, my nephew works for a large Aussie company which has stores all over Australia and has over 10K employees. Today he was given a letter that had both the company and the union, who represents the staff in this company, logo on it. The letter was not personalised but clearly sent to every employee via their store management it reads as follows:

Dear Employee,

We are writing to advise you of a change to how we will handle sick leave and medical certificates from today.

A growing number of stores have expressed concern at the increased preveleance of digital medical certificates from online servcies such as updoc and qoctor among others. These servcies do not require you to attend a consulattion and simply charge you to provide a medical certificate.

Blah Blah (stay home when sick…. other people dont want to get sick)

So due to the above reasons, effective from today all medical certificates must be hand signed by a doctor, this would always be the case when you attend an appointment at a doctors surgery. Online and digital medical certificates will not be accepted as support for your sick leave claim.

blah blah (union is on board blah blah)

Signed Management

Interested to hear some opinions on whether this is the way most companies might be headed or just interested to get some opinions on what the OzBargain community thinks of the situation.

Education & Work

Comments

  • MakkhiChoos on 15/01/2023 - 13:32
    +3

    I have wayyy more sick leave accrued. But if I want to take a day or two and my employer wants a med cert, you bet I will ask the doc to write me a whole week off to make my effort and money’s worth.

  • jatbinks on 15/01/2023 - 14:50
    -1

    Auspost ?

  • doryappleseed on 15/01/2023 - 15:06
    +1

    Just call their bluff. Everyone is looking for employees of late, so they can find a new employee who will agree to that bullshit.

  • Jono05 on 15/01/2023 - 15:10
    -4

    So what’s the problem? Nothing wrong with it.

  • rosco385 on 15/01/2023 - 16:36
    +5

    Employers will tell you whatever they feel like, and they don't care whether it's legal or not. The National Employment Standards state a Statutory Declaration is acceptable if an employee cannot get a Medical Certificate, so if they don't want a digital med cert, write out a stat Dec and hand that to them.

    • 2024 on 15/01/2023 - 17:35
      +1

      I discovered that compared to my state's stat dec, commonwealth stat decs can be witnessed by a large number of professionals:
      https://www.ag.gov.au/legal-system/publications/commonwealth…

      • Architect
      • Chiropractor
      • Dentist
      • Financial adviser
      • Financial Planner
      • Legal practitioner
      • Medical practitioner
      • Midwife
      • Migration agent registered under Division 3 of Part 3 of the Migration Act 1958
      • Nurse
      • Occupational therapist
      • Optometrist
      • Patent attorney
      • Pharmacist
      • Physiotherapist
      • Psychologist
      • Trade marks attorney
      • Veterinary surgeon
        and many more not on this list. See the PDF.

      My local pharmacy charge $25 for a "medical certificate" or $2 for witnessing the stat dec ;)
      My employer always accepted these no questions asked.

      • Roman Sandstorm on 16/01/2023 - 15:58
        +2

        Chiropractor

        Chiropractor??? FFS.

        I'm surprised 'witch doctor', or 'psychic healer' wasn't on the list.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 18/01/2023 - 14:13

          Not a coincidence that Chiropractors were behind most of the well publicised "COVID exempt" certificates in 2021.

    • tonka on 15/01/2023 - 22:51

      The Stat Dec validation is the two days a year you don't need a certificate. Which nobody enforces receiving. Anything else a medical certificate is usually required. This is so standard across Australian industry that you have trouble proving it's not 'reasonable' which is the true NES requirement.

      • 2024 on 16/01/2023 - 09:34
        +1

        I’m no expert but I reckon these people know what’s up
        Medical certificates or statutory declarations are examples of acceptable forms of evidence.

        • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 11:44

          I am an expert.

          • 2024 on 16/01/2023 - 12:09

            @tonka: In which field/industry?

            • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 13:40

              @2024: 35 years Payroll and HR. Many industries.

              • 2024 on 16/01/2023 - 13:54
                +3

                @tonka: Yeah sweet. Based on your 35 years, do you believe that the Ombudsman is correct with their publication that I linked?

                • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 14:24

                  @2024: Yes they are, But you are just cherry picking the bits you want. For a complicated issue like this you have to read in context with the actual legislation.
                  It would be easy for an employer to argue a website that advertises itself primarily as the 'easiest way to obtain a medical certificate' and delivers one after filling in a form online is not reasonable proof. This is the sort of issue that ends up argued out in court. I would guess the outcome would be that without an actual examination, there is no proof the person has any symptoms. But when it gets tested that assertion would need to by the employers medical consultant not the HR people. Same thing happens with Workers comp stuff.
                  You are not also taking into account there may further requirements in their award and the employer's policy would also be taken into account.

                  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 18/01/2023 - 14:15

                    @tonka: Yet another example that HR doesn't act for employees. Never trust them.

                    You are not also taking into account there may further requirements in their award and the employer's policy

                    Guess HR doesn't have ongoing yearly professional development requirements to stay up to date. Neither the award nor "policy" (lmao by the way) can force an employee to opt out of NES entitlements. Maybe 35 years ago when you were a spring chicken.

                    • tonka on 18/01/2023 - 19:35

                      @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Of course HR doesn't act for employees, did you think they might? btw NES entitlements around medical certificates don't actually exist so maybe have a clue and notice that it's actually Fairwork guidance that says to consult the awards for more guidance. And while policies can't override the NES, they certainly can give and indication of what the employer has communicated as reasonable which would contribute to the outcome of an arbitrated dispute. And to top off your lack knowledge, the NES didn't exist 35 years ago, so maybe you should value a bit of experience. When you have some you could use actual knowledge instead of just making things up.

                      • 2024 on 19/01/2023 - 15:02

                        @tonka: At the end of the day it’s not what the employer communicates.

                        The evidence simply needs to convince a reasonable person - not an unreasonable employer.

                        Fairwork have given examples of documents that meet that requirement.

                        I find it difficult to ignore Fair Work’s advice, considering that they are an impartial organisation. To each their own I guess.

                      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 19/01/2023 - 16:36

                        @tonka:

                        btw NES entitlements around medical certificates don't actually exist so maybe have a clue

                        lmao. NES entitlement is personal leave. It's a bonafide undisputable entitlement.

                        Who gives a rats about the certificate. The NES certainly doesn't. I could give 2 shits what Fairwork's "guidance" is - as it's exactly just that in name only. Likewise with modern awards, none will have the draconian "evidence" requirements you suggest. None exclude forms of medical certificates. None.

                        Regardless of whatever policy your employer/serf lord you work for wants at the end of the day, if an employee is sick or needs to care for someone, they are entitled to take time off. If you want to chase them all the way to a Tribunal over an "online" consultation certificate, so be it. You'll waste a shitload of time and money and be laughed off.

                        So maybe have a clue and don't say lies like "requirements in awards or policies" when the former doesn't exist, and the later has no legitimate power whatsoever.

  • siresteelhell on 15/01/2023 - 17:23
    +2

    talk everyone into changing unions to one that works for you instead of the company

    • tonka on 15/01/2023 - 22:58
      -3

      What if the other employees don't enjoy covering the workload for a handful that are abusing the system? This could be an initiative partially driven by employee complaints.

      • siresteelhell on 17/01/2023 - 06:18

        you are assuming they are abusing the system..ie taking sick days when they are not sick…

        • tonka on 17/01/2023 - 16:14
          -1

          True I am. I've actually listened to way more people complain about covering the workload of someone often taking sickies than I've ever heard people complain about getting a medical certificate. And it's actually my job to ask for those certificates.

  • DiscoJango on 15/01/2023 - 18:09
    +5

    I am sick, should i:

    a) Rest at home all day
    or
    b) Spend the next 2 hours booking a gp appointment, sit in the waiting room, see the dr and then come back home

    • kaleidoscope on 15/01/2023 - 18:42
      +1

      You dont need to physically be there. Just get a phone consultation if you’re unable to visit the clinic and collect the mc later or have it emailed.

      • 811b11e8 on 16/01/2023 - 15:21

        It has to be hand-signed cant email it did you even read the post?

        • kaleidoscope on 16/01/2023 - 17:26

          It has to be hand-signed cant email it did you even read the post?

          If you can’t email a hand signed medical certificate to office, then simply collect it from clinic when you’re better. What’s the issue with that?

  • Punda on 15/01/2023 - 18:12
    +1

    I have people who routinely call sick with either a headache or loose motions they call it. The new normal is they have a fever. Then the next day they’re back. Sometimes with a fresh hair cut. Even had one tell me he couldn’t work on a certain day because he wasn’t coming in that day because he needed a haircut (cultural reasons)

  • kaleidoscope on 15/01/2023 - 18:39

    I think it’s completely fair. They are simply telling you should produce a letter signed by the doc who is not one of these dodgy online only practices. You don’t need to get the cert on the same day and can either collect it when you’re well or even ask the doctor to email it to you.

  • tonka on 15/01/2023 - 19:16
    +10

    The whole Medical Certificate thing is a drain on medicare. Employers are better off accepting it as a cost of employment and rewarding those that don't use their sick leave. Pay it out as a bonus when the employee leaves or retires.

    • jellykingdom on 16/01/2023 - 08:20
      +2

      Amen. It is a total waste of the doctor's time for me to haul myself into the clinic with a cold, just because i accidentally got sick on a Friday or Monday

  • Heaps for Cheaps on 15/01/2023 - 19:31
    +1

    You could take it to Fair Work.

  • infinite on 15/01/2023 - 20:47

    The employers demands are clearly against the law (http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/conso…) and a simple report to Fair Work Australia will result in an appropriate corporate spanking for the employer.

    • tonka on 15/01/2023 - 22:35
      +2

      How is that clear. It says evidence that would satisfy a reasonable person. If they have the union on board I think Fairwork will also be ok. A website that advertises itself in a big bold landing page as 'The easiest way to get a Medical Certificate', doesn't really sound like a place you're going to for medical treatment.

      • IM-Cheap on 18/01/2023 - 23:56

        For say a cold or the flu could the employer not consider reciepts for medicine and a carer's statement (like from a husband/wife/flatmate), or physical evidence someone has been sick (like after I've recovered from being a snot monster the skin on my nose is normally cracked and peeling from all the tissues), or known contact with another sick employee as reasonable evidence rather than the employee wasting medicare resources and exposing more people?

  • squaredonut on 15/01/2023 - 21:08

    I can understand where the employer's perspective, people taking too many sickies, and easily doing so with valid proof.

    But like others have said, going to a a doctor in person:

    • Is no longer same-day, next-day appointments anymore
    • Common cold and other illnesses is wasting the GP's time
    • The way bulk-billing is going, it cost on average $50 to see a GP to cover the gap if the GP even allows for bulk billing, but if not, then you're completely out of luck and would need to fork out the full cost of the visit, just to get a doctor's certificate.
    • tonka on 15/01/2023 - 22:42

      "wasting the GP's ", wasting the medicare levy. The GP's are just as likely to be advocating the process. They love people queued up for 2 minute consultations.

  • sim0an on 15/01/2023 - 21:18
    -1

    Good. I'm actually surprised that being able to obtain a medical certificate or a prescription from a doctor who not only hasn't examined you, they haven't even sighted you in person before is legal. It's so bloody dodgy and I have no doubt plenty of people use this for the wrong reasons.

    GP's can't do phone consultations unless they've physically seen the patient within the prior 12 months. It blows my mind that these companies are allowed to bill Medicare for their services.

    • meowsers on 17/01/2023 - 15:37
      +1

      Firstly, these companies don't bill medicare.

      Second, a person doesn't always need a physical exam. If someone is complaining of gastro there is very little you can do examwise in a GP clinic aside from having them sh*t in a cup and that's not even until it's persistent.

      It's not dodgy at all. What's dodgy is this employer acting like they know better than an employee's doctor.

  • Vancomycin 1000mg on 15/01/2023 - 23:21
    +2

    As health care worker, this does not help the already overwhelmed and understaffed health system at all. Good luck getting an appointment at your GP on the day you are sick.

    Online health services provide a lot of relief for primary health care providers. (PROFANITY) Woolworths and Coles.

  • Talonparty on 16/01/2023 - 03:32
    +3

    What a joke. We should have sensible laws, like you should only require a certificate if you're taking 3 days or more off and if the company wants one for anything less than that they should have their own doctor on the books that you can see for free. So many corporate bootlickers in this thread.

  • jerjergege on 16/01/2023 - 07:55

    A scan of a certificate is still digital? So they want a hand signed non copied cert?

  • jellykingdom on 16/01/2023 - 08:19
    +1

    I didn't even know a digital medical cert was a thing!

  • Eeples on 16/01/2023 - 09:10
    +1

    It would be good if you posted the whole letter and not just write ‘blah blah’. We might actually gain a better understanding of the companies perspective.

    Ie. Editing, censoring parts, or doctoring (sorry), the letter necessarily sets up a bias against the company.

    Does the letter state that no certificate is required for 1 day, 2 consecutive days, 3 consecutive days?
    (If not, ask your nephew the policy on that; that information is important).

    Does the letter state a pharmacist can do the certificate?
    (If not, ask your nephew if one can; that information is important).

    Does the letter specifically mention covid?
    (What is the companies position on covid; if it’s not in the letter and you don’t know then ask your nephew).

    Was “consulattion” your typo or theirs ?

    • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 11:54

      This is on point. If the business is standard it allows a certain amount of sick days without any evidence to allow for the days when seeing a doctor wasn't feasible. It's also likely this is prompted by people abusing the system, they could be seeing certain individuals or groups taking an unreasonable amount of leave and need to make this adjustment before they can begin to manage their behavior..

      • siresteelhell on 17/01/2023 - 06:22

        not necessarily prompted by people abusing the system….just because more people are using they online system doesn`t equate to people scamming the system.. in this day in age of covid and things… more people are opting to not interact at doctors where other possibly contagious people also are….

        • tonka on 17/01/2023 - 16:26

          Yep, and from the look of that website, updoc, they are ruining that opportunity by basically selling medical certificates.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 16/01/2023 - 09:24
    +4

    this company should be forced to pay the fees to have a doctor come visit you at home

  • ifyareckon on 16/01/2023 - 09:27
    +2

    My partner has seen a massive increase in these online medical certificates recently working in a large retail chain. If those using them had to physically go into a doctors, the instances of sick days would massively decrease.

    One employee used a certificate from one of these services 14 weeks in a row to call in sick on a Friday in order to use all their sick pay before quitting. Another applied for a week of annual leave over busy xmas period less than 7 days in advance and when declined, used an online service to get a medical certificate for the time off.

    While there are legitimate reasons people may need to use these services, like most things it's the minority taking advantage that ruin it for everyone.

    • 4Eva on 16/01/2023 - 10:56
      +5

      If those using them had to physically go into a doctors, the instances of sick days would massively decrease.

      So what? Sick days are embedded into the salary.

      While there are legitimate reasons people may need to use these services, like most things it's the minority taking advantage that ruin it for everyone.

      What kind of crazy wage slave are you?

      No offence, some people really deserve to stay in their 9-5 life because they defend the system so much, even knowing it is broken.

      • ifyareckon on 16/01/2023 - 15:28
        -1

        Crazy wage slave?? Turn it up champ! There is a big difference in being a "wage slave" and having the decency to turn up to your job when you are meant to.

        If you read the two examples I gave above these are people abusing the sick leave system for a purpose other than the "sick leave". In the example of the person being denied leave and using one of these services to take sick leave instead, the reason they were denied leave was that the company has a blackout period for leave around xmas. Pretty straight forward when this is explicitly in the employment contract.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 18/01/2023 - 14:20
          +2

          Yeah, nobody in the country has ever fallen sick during a blackout period. Ever. It's like law. Germs are on notice.

    • Talonparty on 16/01/2023 - 23:37

      If those using them had to physically go into a doctors, the instances of sick days would massively decrease.

      Lol, are you so sure? What about if we had a fixed medicare system like we used to. One where you could see a doctor, bulk billed and same day.

      Seems pretty dumb to just assume that people are using the online facilities because they are lying instead of the fact that 1) it is much cheaper and 2) you can get same day since doctors wont backdate

      • ifyareckon on 17/01/2023 - 09:01
        +1

        Not assuming people are only using the online facility because they are lying. There are of course many legitimate reasons. In the instances I have cited above, this was definitely the case that they were lying. No one would make the effort to physically go in to a doctors surgery 14 weeks in a row to get a certificate to call in sick for their one shift for the week when they already have another job that they would likely need to take time off from to make that appointment. There are of course plenty of legitimate reasons for using a service like this. However these services do open doors for those to take advantage of the system with minimal effort.

  • Danimal86 on 16/01/2023 - 10:33
    +7

    lol @ all the corporate shills in the comments standing up for the garbage employer

    If people are going off sick when they’re not sick then they’re either a disengaged employee so manage them out of the business through legitimate means, or your culture sucks and that’s on you as a business. Applying some heavy handed measure to try and guilt people in to coming in because it’s too hard to get a certificate is just awful people management. The union are clearly also a disgrace.

    There’s work everywhere atm, if I’m working for this mob I’m going to get a certificate for at least a week or two and using that time to find a job for an employer that isn’t a dumpster fire.

    • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 12:00
      +1

      Difficult to manage an employee out of the business for excessive sick leave without first clarifying your policies around evidence you accept etc. Unless you are suggesting some kind of constructive dismissal?

      • Danimal86 on 16/01/2023 - 18:18

        No I’m suggesting that if they’re so disenfranchised they’re just going off sick whenever it suits them they’re probably not a particularly productive staff member and there’s no doubt other areas their performance is slipping. Hence, legitimate means.

        If their sick leave is really that excessive they’ll run out eventually anyway and the problem will take care of itself.

        • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 20:58

          I'm one of the people whose job it is to enforce the certificate thing. Personally I don't agree with it, I think rewarding good behavior and trying to engage the workforce works better. It's not always easy though, and it's hard to incentivize people to not take sickies, but also do take when sick.

          One of the things I see is the people that have worked out taking time off their normal week creates overtime shifts. They're not disengaged and running out of sick leave isn't a deterrent. Often their managers don't realize that's what's going on.

          • Danimal86 on 16/01/2023 - 22:37

            @tonka: So don’t allocate the overtime shifts to the people that are calling in sick when you need them? Of course if you have an allocation of overtime clause in the EA that’s another issue, but sounds like the union isn’t worth anything anyway, so may be a non issue. Either that or just don’t roster the overtime and move on.

            Some people will go off sick, that’s just a reality of doing business. If they’re otherwise good employees then it is what it is. This draconian crap doesn’t work though, all you’re going to get is fake medical certificates, malicious compliance or people saying “heck if I’ve got to jump through these hoops I’m going to make sure I get at least 2 or 3 days off”. Basically every outcome but the one management want.

            Hope they pay you well to enforce this garbage, I’d be out the door if not.

            • tonka on 17/01/2023 - 16:24

              @Danimal86: No I don't get paid well. No need to try and make me feel bad about my job though. Medical certificates (in the described form) have been a standard of employment rules for 50+ years maybe lot's longer. It's usually part of the process completed by Payroll professionals. Without those people no pay, no jobs, nadda. The rules themselves are the result of many decades of compromise between employers and employee groups. And you're right you likely would be out the door, it's a tough gig not everyone can cope with.

  • 4Eva on 16/01/2023 - 10:53

    Another reason why you should not work for an employer when there are so many other alternatives.

    Become a consultant in your own area of expertise. Bring your clients with you from the Big 4 or Big 6. The clients want you, not the crappy overpriced fees.

    Quit now and escape the Matrix.

    • syousef on 16/01/2023 - 16:35

      Your advice is to for all the workers to become consultants? Really? This is what you think the world and the people in it need?

      I have to stop coming to these boards. It's utterly depressing.

    • MrThing on 17/01/2023 - 06:44

      Everyone on ozbargain are IT nerds or burger flippers anyway

  • Drakesy on 16/01/2023 - 10:57
    +4

    To be honest though, the phone based appointments and digital certs are a bit of a sham.

    I used it for the first time about 6 months ago and saw how its incredibly open for abuse/doctoring. Consequently i can see how people abused the system.

    i respect their decision though. These companies are just set up to leach money out of the system. I mean who's there to establish the person on the other end is actually a doctor?

    • 4Eva on 16/01/2023 - 11:00
      +1

      Give your employees unlimited unpaid sick leave instead. Remove it from the salary structure if these employers are so scared of people using it. Add bonuses for those who are not sick, duh? I mean damn, some employers are just stupid.

      These employers couldn't run a business even if we coached them. The directors these days are just plain ignorant of reality. The businesses I run don't have any of these stupid problems because we help all our employees escape the matrix.

      They benefit, I benefit. It should always be like this, but no, it's not like this.

      Then again it's a different world when you are personally worth $50m+. Idiots.

      • syousef on 16/01/2023 - 16:33

        Bonus for not being sick? So your solution is incentive for sick people to come in to work and make everyone else sick. face palm

      • Herbse on 16/01/2023 - 20:27

        Directors worth $50M can't run a business.

        Huge if true.

    • Talonparty on 16/01/2023 - 23:39
      +1

      This is so dumb though. I took many a sickie in the past and wasted the doctors time a the local clinic. 'Oh I'm not feeling so well and the company wants a sick note' 'Oh ok, rest up here you go'

      No-one cares in person either. There's not some thin blue line where doctors are acting like corporate bouncers 'you're not sick enough for a day off, go back to the mill!!!!'

  • nanonoise on 16/01/2023 - 12:04

    Give them a statutory declaration instead.

  • jaimex2 on 16/01/2023 - 12:22
    +1

    Man do I live under a rock, my employer is great.

    I was under the impression we were past the "medical certificate" bs. You just have personal/carers days you can take. no questions asked.

    That's how it works for me, no one abuses it.

    • tonka on 16/01/2023 - 13:49
      +1

      It really depends on the workforce. In an environment were employees aren't rewarded for merit, ie perhaps very little scope for promotion or high turnover entry level type workers, people may not care about their reputation.
      If you're middle management or in a small team harder to get away with.
      Some environments with high access to overtime, people might call in sick during the week knowing they can earn double time on the weekend.

  • syousef on 16/01/2023 - 16:32

    If you can't see a doctor go into work really unwell and make everyone else sick. Make them send you home. Now instead of 1 employee sick you have a dozen. Genius. I swear leadership is getting dafter.

  • mrkorrupt on 16/01/2023 - 16:39
    +1

    Sometimes i wake up and zero motivation to go to work, and not feeling it at all, I would take a personal day, and focus on doing things which make me feel better so that tomorrow i can be more productive. Lets say you force me to come in, I am not going to be happy, not work efficiently and be resentful. Sometimes we need days to ourselves.

  • Jamie007 on 16/01/2023 - 19:47
    +1

    Brilliant, lets clog up the health system even more than it already is and have more people sitting in crowded waiting rooms during a pandemic hy making people go to see a doctor every time they gave a common cold or get a migraine.

    They doctors certificate requirement should be abolished altogether, except in the case of when a person has excessive sickies (ie has used all their sick leave or is off for an extended time).

    I use these services because I suffer occasional migraines and driving heavy machinery and migraines are a bad combination. So rather than spending two hours sitting in a waiting room surrounded by sick people (if I can even get an appointment on the day - which is becoming increasingly rare) and charging Medicare for a doctor to see me for two minutes to get a certificate I just get a certificate from Updoc. If my employer brings this in, well I guess I'll just go into work and take the risk.

  • Herbse on 16/01/2023 - 20:24
    +2

    So rude. I only ever take sick days when I'm sick. I've never called in sick because I didn't feel like working or had to do something else that day and needed the time off.

    To think that employers would assume people are "faking" it, especially since they have some so called "data" that shows an increased use of the online sick leave is causing people to suddenly fall sick, causing staffing issues for their business.

    What a baseless assumption and how dare they push these assumptions onto the worker because they are afraid of losing "profits". Companies need to stop focusing on money and start focusing on the mental health and happiness of the employees. A business cannot run without people who want to come in when they feel 100% up to facing the day, and will lose out on valuable, irreplaceable people due to this.

  • CoffeeCup on 17/01/2023 - 04:02
    +4

    Companies can make whatever demands they like, whether it is enforceable or would be upheld at a Fair Work Commission hearing is another thing entirely.

    Under the Fair Work Act 2009, modern awards (MA) and enterprise agreements (EA) can include evidence requirements. Without the inclusion of a specific clause in a EA or MA the requirement is:

    "An employee who has given his or her employer notice of the taking of leave under this Division must, if required by the employer, give the employer evidence that would satisfy a reasonable person". Part 2-2, Division 7, Sub Division D of the Fair Work Act 2009

    You'd have a very difficult time arguing that a medical certificate issued by a qualified and registered medical practitioner did not fulfil the requirement of satisfying a reasonable person, regardless of the format of the consultation.

    Like many instances where companies make up their own rules (that aren't in line with legislation/EA/MA), they get away with it until someone is willing to fight it.

    All employees should make themselves familiar with the Fair Work Ombudsman website. It contains a massive amount of information and can answer most questions about your rights at work.

  • Wasabi Ninja on 17/01/2023 - 10:20

    Sick days are part of your package. I’m a contractor and they keep trying to get me to go staff. When they calculate my salary for staff they include the sick days. I’ll stay contractor, staff works out to be 20% less in my end of year statement. But also having to prove that the sick days you’re entitled to and are part of your salary is ridiculous.

  • pharkurnell on 17/01/2023 - 11:18

    These servcies do not require you to attend a consulattion and simply charge you to provide a medical certificate.

    I agree with the company… too easy to scam sickys…

  • imurgod on 17/01/2023 - 16:29
    +2

    Just ridiculous.

    We don't even require them from our staff at all. If you need a day off, just take it and rest.

    You're entitled to sick days so we don't harass our staff for them and it has really helped get the best out of them.

    • cunningdrew on 17/01/2023 - 22:41
      +1

      Yep, if you're not up to working today then take a reset and come back fresh tomorrow. You will get more done in the day you get back than in the two days you're tied to your desk not feeling with it.

      • imurgod on 17/01/2023 - 22:44
        +1

        Honestly, it works extremely well for us.

        I imagine because they don't have to feel guilty about it, they even get bits of work done when they don't feel too bad and our staff are loyal and happy.

        We all get days where we're just not feeling like we're firing on all cylinders. We're human, not robots.

  • hawkshead on 17/01/2023 - 16:36

    That should be illegal if it isn't. Your medical information is private and how you obtain it is none of their business.

  • Richmond Tigers on 17/01/2023 - 17:20
    -2

    Boomers - "its great!"

    Everyone else - "lame".

  • cunningdrew on 17/01/2023 - 22:39

    My employer just increased our personal leave from 10 days to 15. And we do need a certificate, kind of. It's not particularly chased up, and digital appears to be fine. That said, don't think I have ever supplied one, or asked for one from my doctor.

    I don't take the piss out of my employer, so they don't take the piss out of me.

    If I worked for a place which was this bent on going to the doctor when you feel like crap and spreading your germs with them, all because they don't trust you, then I would be looking for a different employer that very day.

  • coffeeinmyveins on 18/01/2023 - 08:33
    +1

    I can't imagine being sick as as dog and having to go to a dr to get them to just say "yep you're sick here's a note" and then having to take more time off because you're exhausted and probably picked something else up from the doctors office. Not to mention you're taking time away from the Doctor seeing people who actually need the treatment.

    I've never had to get a DRs cert. I took almost two full weeks off because of Covid and not once was asked for a certificate. Maybe that's more unique to the tech industry but damn man, we aren't children, trust people.

    • pharkurnell on 18/01/2023 - 13:40
      -2

      can't imagine being sick as as dog and having to go to a dr to get them to just say "yep you're sick here's a note" and then having to take more time off because you're exhausted

      that has been how it is for decades. Its not hard.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 18/01/2023 - 14:57

        it's not hard

        Ok mate. You enjoy going to the dr when you're supposed to be resting so you can get other people sick just to get a note for your boss.

        • pharkurnell on 18/01/2023 - 15:21
          -1

          I do.. and I did today infact just got back…
          It may shock you but rest doesn't always fix you when your sick.. amazing eh!
          Sometimes you need to visit the Dr.. and I dont think I've ever got sick from going to a Dr… that belief is up there with the toothfairy…

          Oh and my boss trusts me, no need for certificates.

          • coffeeinmyveins on 18/01/2023 - 17:09

            @pharkurnell: you're talking about something completely different and I can't believe I need to explain this to you.

            You just said you went to the doctor because you were too sick to heal on your own, probably to get antibiotics.

            The conversation that this ENTIRE THREAD is about is being forced to go to the doctor for the sole purpose of getting a certificate, not to get medicine.

            Oh and my boss trusts me, no need for certificates.

            You have missed the point entirely my guy. have a nice day.

  • gstfree on 18/01/2023 - 09:27
    +3

    From legal's perspective, those online certificates are issued by legally registered medical professionals and they are valid to satisfy Fairwork sick leave requirement. It is not up to the employer to refuse the certificates without legal grounds. If employer suspect the medical practitioners misuse the system, it should complain to the medical board instead of penalizing employees.

  • inasero on 18/01/2023 - 11:20
    +2

    I'm a medical doctor, and this is BS

    • gstfree on 18/01/2023 - 18:34
      +1

      Fully agree. But the certificate issuing doctor is also a registered medical practitioner. If this is a concern it should be fixed at government/medical board level. At the moment the online certificates are completely legal and should not be rejected. I work for payroll/HR for a multinational and I have no legal ground to reject those online certificates.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 18/01/2023 - 14:21
    +1

    I literally demand the employer is named and shamed at this point.

    • coffeeinmyveins on 18/01/2023 - 14:58
      +2

      Going to be retail like JB or Woolies

  • paloverde88 on 18/01/2023 - 14:31

    Why wont they accept a gigital one, even after i see my doctor face to face she also givex me a gigital cerificate and a gigital prescription with the smallest QR code ever. We all livei in a gigital age so all gigital documents are treated as paper ones

  • Atomik17 on 18/01/2023 - 15:12
    +1

    Nurse here. They cannot legally deny your medical certificate regardless if digital or hand signed.

  • T3J on 18/01/2023 - 20:42
    +2

    This right here is what makes everyone sick because people WILL go to work sick, management won't care less. Disgusting.. Company should be named and shamed.

  • trapper on 20/01/2023 - 20:18
    +1

    If my work required any kind of certification that I had to pay for, then I'd be submitting that as an expense.

  • soundboy5010 on 24/01/2023 - 21:02

    Stat declarations also work…

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