Car Accident - Who Is at Fault?

L82600 on 23/01/2023 - 08:27
Last edited 23/01/2023 - 10:09 by 1 other user

Just wanted some opinions on who is at fault here:

Diagram

Car A is on the left side of the road turning into a driveway, however because Car B is positioned on the right side of the driveway, Car A turns into his right side of the drive way at the same time Car B turns left onto the road which results in a collision.

Driveway is intended to be wide enough for a car exiting and entering simultaneously as it is a busy hotel and leads to its underground parking facility. Both drivers were looking 'north' (according to the diagram, as in Driver of car A looking straight ahead and Driver of car B looking to their right). Driver of car A turned first as they had better vision of vehicles approaching and turned as soon as they saw that there were no vehicles approaching in the opposite lane and assumes driver of car B would give way. A second or 2 later, Driver of car B sees there are no vehicles approaching on their right and turns left into car A's front passenger side door.

Edit: since the reddit post was locked I was unable to comment any further, so wanted the opinions of OzBargainers before proceeding with taking legal action just to be safe. I also did not want to disclose which driver I was so I can receive some impartial feedback.

I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance and this was my first car accident. Immediately after, I was hesitant to accuse the driver of car B they were at fault because I wasn't 100% sure. The other driver gave me their details and didn't even ask for my details because the damage to their Range Rover was barely more than a scratch, meanwhile my front passenger car door looks pretty well dented. I have contacted the driver of car B but they refuse to admit they are at fault.

The driveway doesn't have any clear markings such as enter/exit lanes. When you enter the driveway and go further down, there is a sign which instructs you to switch from left side to the right side so the driver can easily swipe their keycard against the sensor to open the parking gate underground. However, this shouldn't justify the driver of car B to stay on the right side when exiting from the driveway IMO.

Thank you all, I am really glad with the outcome of responses here. Fingers crossed that I can get some compensation from this.

Poll Options

  • 16
    Car A
  • 205
    Car B
  • 18
    Both
Automotive

Comments

  • Xistn on 23/01/2023 - 08:40
    +38

    Car B is entering the road, Car A is exiting the road, Car B must give way.

    • factor on 23/01/2023 - 10:02
      -5

      But the car turning off the road into the driveway must give way too — the law:
      http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/qld/cons…

      (And the law for the rule you note - turning off a driveway into a road):
      http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/qld/cons…

      Both rules are active here, both vehicles must give way to the other.

      • boomramada on 23/01/2023 - 10:06
        +3

        Yeah but in noob terms, Car B should give away to all traffic before enter, even car A is doing something wrong (ie not signalling). (Unless you have some good evidence to show to a cop or court, where cops could fine both).

      • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 10:53
        +9

        So, by your logic, it's a stalemate and both must just remain there until the heat death of the universe?

        Road Rule 75 does not apply to Car A because Car B should not have been parked where they were.

        Car B has the obligation to give way before entering the roadway (road Rule 74). If they were in the correct lane, their "turning left" would have no bearing on Car A.

        • factor on 23/01/2023 - 11:13
          -4

          Road rule 75 doesn't care where a vehicle on road related area is — must give way to all such vehicles and pedestrians.

          The law just is, doesn't need to make sense in every scenario.

          It is quite normal for insurance companies to find neither party 100% at fault, thus bare own loss.

          • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 12:27
            +8

            @factor: Car B isn't a pedestrian, and Car A didn't run into Car B. Car B ran into the side of Car A. Ergo, Car B failed to give way as they were the one leaving the road related area as stated in RR74.

            RR75 says the only obligation for Car A in this situation is it must give way to any vehicle (ie: Car B) on the road related area (ie: not drive head on into Car B who was parked like a moron). It sounds like this is what Car A was doing by trying to avoid Car B's idiotic exiting.

            And the reason RR75 doesn't "make sense" in this scenario, is because it doesn't apply.

          • ashtdp on 24/01/2023 - 14:23
            +2

            @factor: The vehicle turning off the road to driveway should give way to all the traffic already on the road and any pedestrians.

            The vehicle leaving the driveway should give way to any traffic on the road and pedestrians.

            So the vehicles traveling/leaving the road always gets priority.

            In case of OP, he was leaving the road to driveway. He made sure there is no oncoming traffic before turning. But the other car (B) which was leaving the driveway checked only one side of the traffic assuming nobody would be turning into driveway crossing a lane in which Car B wanted to turn into and made a mistake.

      • trapper on 24/01/2023 - 10:09
        +1

        But the car turning off the road into the driveway must give way too — the law:
        http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/qld/cons…

        This rule doesn't say what you think it says.

    • HeWhoKnows on 24/01/2023 - 07:57
      -1

      Compensation?

      Its always up to the insurance companies

      OB doesnt have any say here or any legal status on which to rest.

      Good luck!

  • Lord Fart Bucket on 23/01/2023 - 08:44
    +30

    B, cause he's on the incorrect side of the road. A is pretty dumb as well, wanting to turn into the right lane.

    • ForkSnorter on 23/01/2023 - 10:46
      +3

      Some buildings require you to drive into and out of the car park on the right side, just due to the layout of the carpark and limited space.

    • bargaino on 23/01/2023 - 13:38
      +2

      In a car-park, it is quite common to pass cars on the other side - moving slowly of course.

      A is dumb? Only for not having insurance. Beware P-platers!

  • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 08:47
    +15

    Why the (fropanity) is B on the wrong side of the road? Or is A entering an “exit only” lane?

    Car B. They are entering the road from a road related area and must give way to vehicles already on the road.

    And let me guess, you were in Car B and are now looking at getting some good old confirmation bias?

    Also, how the hell is Car A getting any traction as a vote. Some of y’all need to re-sit your license.

    • Lord Fart Bucket on 23/01/2023 - 08:49
      +1

      looking at getting some good old confirmation bias?

      I see disabled user coming on.

      • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 08:52
        +2

        I’m just sitting here waiting for the dash cam footage to get uploaded…

        And no disabled user, just a good, old fashioned ghosting on an alt account on this one, I’m afraid… near 5yo account with 1 post (this one) and 3 comments in that time.

    • Caped Baldy on 23/01/2023 - 08:58
      +2

      Also, how the hell is Car A getting any traction as a vote. Some of y’all need to re-sit your license.

      lots of dumbasses on the road and ozb considering the posts lately. That said, I found the post hard to follow at points.

    • GoldenDragon888 on 23/01/2023 - 09:02

      Could be accessing an intercom.

    • AdosHouse on 23/01/2023 - 10:48
      +5

      "Why the (fropanity) is B on the wrong side of the road?"

      Range Rover driver, enough said.

  • Empharand on 23/01/2023 - 08:54
    +14

    Car B must give way to Car A.

    Although I seriously hope your Paint Diagram isn't accurate OP otherwise you're both massive numpties as you're both either entering or exiting to/from a right-hand lane. Please provide dashcam footage.

    • 87percent on 23/01/2023 - 09:22
      +3

      upvote for "numpties"

  • GG57 on 23/01/2023 - 08:55
    +4

    Both cars on the wrong side of the driveway.
    Car A 'assumed' the other car wouldn't move; it did.
    Car B entered a road without giving way to others.

    What a mess.
    You can only hope that both drivers were travelling at a reduced speed and the resultant damage is minor.

    • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 09:00
      +6

      To be fair though, it’s not Car A’s fault that OP “Car B” stopped on the wrong side of the driveway like a dimwit. Car A has to get off the road, and sometimes that may require driving around idiot drivers who don’t know how to use a driveway.

      • Gunnar on 23/01/2023 - 10:18
        +5

        This! Car B will be at fault with insurance, car A is an could have avoided the thing if they knew how to read the situation. They’re also a dope for for turning on the right hand side of the driveway and should have just waited or waived Car B to do their idiotic maneuver

        • Xistn on 23/01/2023 - 11:05
          +2

          You spelt Idiot wrong, it's RANGEROVER.

  • AustriaBargain on 23/01/2023 - 09:03
    +1

    Car B. He drove into oncoming traffic. It's concerning you didn't already just "know" this rule from observing how people use the road.

  • kerfuffle on 23/01/2023 - 09:03
    +14

    Didn't get the answers you wanted from Reddit?

    (Knew I saw this post somewhere before!)

    • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 09:07
      +9

      When it comes to confirmation bias, it’s best to shop around…

      • kerfuffle on 23/01/2023 - 09:08
        +4

        Now to see whether OP is Car A or Car B. Methinks Car B if he had to ask the same question again

        • pegaxs on 23/01/2023 - 09:11
          +7

          I’m smashing the F5 button on Whingepool in anticipation of it being posted there after OP gets no confirmation bias here…

          • Sheep Whisperer on 24/01/2023 - 07:21

            @pegaxs: it needs to pass the pub test before making it to WP. Looks like it has, so not long now.

    • Empharand on 23/01/2023 - 09:08
      +1

      That's hilarious hahahaha

    • SBOB on 23/01/2023 - 09:16
      +1

      Well at least we know which car was the op :)

  • factor on 23/01/2023 - 09:07
    +2

    NSW road rules 74 and 75 — one for entering the road, one for exiting the road. Both rules require giving way to almost everything else. Mutual fault, both were obliged to give way to the other.

  • randomusername2017 on 23/01/2023 - 09:17
    -1

    Where's the option for diagram at fault…no way it went down like that..

  • Some Human on 23/01/2023 - 09:21
    +1

    Just apologize to car A, pay the excess and move on with your life.

  • Muzeeb on 23/01/2023 - 09:25

    Driveway is intended to be wide enough for a car exiting and entering simultaneously

    Are there any road markings on the driveway?

    A satellite google maps image would be nice.

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 23/01/2023 - 09:29
    +6

    Twist: OP is the new trainee in the insurance claims department and wants to just double check his answer with the number 1 authority on bargains, and Australian road rules committee before submitting conclusion of claim.

  • Gunnar on 23/01/2023 - 09:30
    +1

    OP is this a hypothetical scenario? Your parents who don’t use a computer need advice or asking for a friend?

    Either way, you’re at fault here

  • jv on 23/01/2023 - 09:34

    Probably B, but you'd need to check with a lawyer

  • Empharand on 23/01/2023 - 09:38
    +1

    OP for your sake (and everyone else's safety) please take a bus from now on

  • lordra on 23/01/2023 - 09:41
    +2

    I've seen dumb driveways like this quite often.
    The exit is on the RHS, on the drivers door, as the driver needs to pull up and enter a code on the keypad or tap a card to get the gate to roll open. Hence, Car B stays in the RHS lane. The same for Car A entering the driveway. They have to stay right, as the keypad is on the RHS to match the driver.
    I've also seen a few close calls where vehicles travelling south have had to break cos cars exiting out of the driveway just floor it.

    • Brian McGee on 23/01/2023 - 09:57
      +1

      The old 'lets have some accidents cause we're to cheap to put the scanner on a medium strip'.

    • Muzeeb on 23/01/2023 - 11:14
      +1

      break

      Brake

  • chriise on 23/01/2023 - 09:54

    Wtf is this driving

  • Brian McGee on 23/01/2023 - 09:55
    +3

    Car A should just wait for the id10t in car B to finish their ridiculous manouver before entertaing the fact B knows how to drive.

    B is at fault for not staying to the left of the roadway/driveway and also not entering the road with due care.

    • jv on 23/01/2023 - 09:58
      +1

      Car A also drove into the wrong side so they could be both at fault.

      • Brian McGee on 23/01/2023 - 10:15
        +2

        True, but only because their way was blocked, 20% of the blame?

        Hence why I said just wait for the moron to move, that way they are not both morons.

        • jv on 23/01/2023 - 10:53

          20% of the blame?

          That's usually something insurance company's lawyers work out between themselves.

          • Brian McGee on 23/01/2023 - 11:11

            @jv: well we only got 20% of the story, seems to have changed a bit since the OP. Went from 'a pub' to 'a building with underground parking and further driveway instructions.

        • htc on 24/01/2023 - 08:34

          Agree, for tricky and potentially dangerous situation, give way to avoid accident.

  • 82600 on 23/01/2023 - 09:57

    OP here, since the reddit post was locked I was unable to comment any further, so wanted the opinions of ozbargainers before proceeding with taking legal action just to be safe. I also did not want to disclose which driver I was so I can receive some impartial feedback.

    I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance and this was my first car accident. Immediately after, I was hesitant to accuse the driver of car B they were at fault because I wasn't 100% sure. The other driver gave me their details and didn't even ask for my details because the damage to their range rover was barely more than a scratch, meanwhile my front passenger car door looks pretty well dented. I have contacted the driver of car B but they refuse to admit they are at fault.

    The driveway doesn't have any clear markings such as enter/exit lanes. When you enter the driveway and go further down, there is a sign which instructs you to switch from left side to the right side so the driver can easily swipe their keycard against the sensor to open the parking gate underground. However, this shouldn't justify the driver of car B to stay on the right side when exiting from the driveway IMO.

    Thank you all, I am really glad with the outcome of responses here. Fingers crossed that I can get some compensation from this.

    • jv on 23/01/2023 - 09:59
      +1

      You'll need legal advice.

      Car B is mainly at fault, but there could be partial liability for Car A.

    • Empharand on 23/01/2023 - 10:07
      +2

      I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance and this was my first car accident

      Whoops! A little bit of an oversight especially considering that it could have likely saved you in this case…

      Fingers crossed that I can get some compensation from this.

      Without insurance you're shit out of luck, unless the other party was to put it through their insurance but since they won't admit fault then yeah you're shit out of luck, perhaps consider getting insurance

      The other driver gave me their details and didn't even ask for my details
      I have contacted the driver of car B but they refuse to admit they are at fault.

      That doesn't make sense to me, if they feel that they weren't at fault why would they give you their details in the first place?

      Conclusion:
      OP take this as a learning experience and move on and get insurance and get a dashcam if you don't already have one.

      • Gunnar on 23/01/2023 - 11:32
        +3

        Why buy insurance when you can just set up a Go Fund Me Page?

    • JimmyF on 23/01/2023 - 10:08
      +2

      I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance and this was my first car accident

      Have you corrected the lack of insurance issue yet?

      and didn't even ask for my details because the damage to their range rover was barely more than a scratch, meanwhile my front passenger car door looks pretty well dented

      How old is your car, is it driveable?

      As an uninsured driver, you sound thank your lucky stars the other driver doesn't want to go down any insurance path! Even a scratch can end up being a bill of $5k or more that you might have to pay these days.

      So if it was me, and the fact you both screwed up here, I would shut up and accept it. Put the money you had been going to pay the legal people towards fixing your car, otherwise you might end up with a much larger bill than just the legal fees if it doesn't go your way.

    • jorf on 23/01/2023 - 10:59
      +1

      You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that you have no fault. You both had to give way according to the rules, and while I would argue that the person exiting the driveway has to give way -more-, that's not what the rules say, so you're likely to end up paying your own way. As you don't have insurance, it will likely cost you more time and money to argue the point (which you'll probably lose anyway) than to just fix the damage.

      Get insurance for next time.

  • JimmyF on 23/01/2023 - 10:00
    +7

    Both are doing 'wrong'. Car B exiting on the wrong side of the driveway, Car A also wanting to enter via the wrong side of the driveway.

    A good driver of Car A would have waited for Car B to exit the driveway so they could enter via the legal/correct side of the driveway.

    Otherwise both will try to be move when the road clears and well……

    Driver of car B sees there are no vehicles approaching on their right and turns left into car A's front passenger side door

  • brendanm on 23/01/2023 - 10:03
    +3

    Both wrong, and poor drivers, A is "less wrong".

  • Marcsie on 23/01/2023 - 10:06
    -1

    The most important question here, does either of them have car insurance or not ?

  • Baysew on 23/01/2023 - 10:07

    It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what your insurance company thinks. What did they say when you asked them?

    • JimmyF on 23/01/2023 - 10:10
      +7

      What did they say when you asked them?

      Please take out a policy before you have an accident next time…..

  • websterp on 23/01/2023 - 10:17
    +10

    OP, did this accident happen at the Australia-US border crossing?

    • boomramada on 23/01/2023 - 10:24

      LOL you made my day :)

  • Marcsie on 23/01/2023 - 10:23

    No insurance,sorry,no sympathy from me,no discussion !

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 23/01/2023 - 10:51

    Normally Car B has to give way as they are at a T Intersection. I was confused about turning in the wrong lane at 1st and read the above notes.

  • freefall101 on 23/01/2023 - 11:19

    I've always wonder about this because of this entrance/exit.

    It is perpetually a mess because you enter and exit on the right, but it's a normal (and often busy) road out front. Usually though people have half a brain and realise it's a weird setup, so actually look at the traffic around them and take it slowly. But occasionally you get someone who just decides they have right of way turning out of there and guns it.

    Anyway, the true lesson here is - get insurance. Because if OP had insurance the insurance company would sort it out for them, now OP needs to deal with it all themselves.

    • Muzeeb on 23/01/2023 - 11:44

      I wonder why the flags were at half mast?

      Probably for the range rover driver in the OP.

  • Seraphin7 on 23/01/2023 - 11:29
    +2

    I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance

    This is where the real story begins …

  • Ryk on 23/01/2023 - 12:36
    +1

    The collision is marked as occurring in the road lane, not the driveway.
    If Car B is fully in the road when hit, having completed the turn. Car A would need to give way when turning right.

  • Drakesy on 23/01/2023 - 13:01
    -1

    Car B's on the wrong side of the road?
    If you're turning left you need to move as far left as possible prior to turning.
    To be honest though, if you both pull out at the same time i have the feeling car B would have the right of way as technically they're on the through lane that car A is driving across.
    Car A should've waited for Car B to clear the driveway rather than driving down the wrong side of the driveway. Also may have a claim against the strata if they have signs instructing tenants to drive on the wrong side of the road.

    So many questions

  • Euphemistic on 23/01/2023 - 17:18
    +1

    Seems like car B is at fault. However, in this situation I reckon Mr RR driver is going to stonewall you and not pay up because he will know you aren’t insured. You’ll end up chasing for months and get diddly squat.

    Go to the wreckers and get a replacement door with the savings you’ve made on not having insurance, or maybe try for paint less repair if there isn’t too much damage to the paint.

    GET INSURANCE.

  • rlf on 24/01/2023 - 01:28
    +1

    Car A at fault. They would've seen Car B and give way to them since they're in their spot - where is Car A intending to turn into????

    Car A is crossing traffic lanes, Car B is not. Simple.

    • kaleidoscope on 24/01/2023 - 17:56
      +2

      B is entering the road from driveway. They must give way to ones that are already on the road. A is exiting.

      • rlf on 25/01/2023 - 01:48

        Yes give way to cars on the current road they are turning onto. Car A is going the opposite direction.

  • JediNite77 on 24/01/2023 - 03:05

    If Car B was in the correct position on the drive way both cars would have been able to turn without incident, so my vote goes to Car B at fault. Doesn't matter if there is a swipe card reader further down the driveway, when entering the road need to be in the correct position to do so.

  • randomusername2017 on 24/01/2023 - 05:14

    car B looking to their right

    Car A saves a few seconds and is rewarded with a dented door panel…fair compensation.

  • nobro25 on 24/01/2023 - 05:26

    Can you imagine the insurance companies going into this thread to find the "at fault" driver.

  • solidussnake on 24/01/2023 - 07:50

    Was driver B a sovereign citizen that did consent to giving their details but not admitting fault. Another great post as to why it's worth having full comp insurance

    You could try sending this post and the Reddit one to the driver in the hopes they see they're in the wrong 😂

  • 2esc on 24/01/2023 - 09:04
    +1

    Normally in Australia we drive on the left hand side of the road so unless car B is in a actually car park car A should be in the wrong as we dont drive on the right hand side of road and could be classed as cutting in front of car B as there coming out. Really need a actual photo of the driveway not a diagram by op perspective.

  • 82norm on 24/01/2023 - 09:51

    Please share photo of damage. You could get some quotes. Send him a letter of demand for payment (through a solicitor). That said, the cost of that probably isn’t worth your while and not guarantee he’ll cough up anything. We’re there any witnesses?

  • trapper on 24/01/2023 - 10:15

    I am the driver of Car A but don't have insurance … I have contacted the driver of car B but they refuse to admit they are at fault.

    This is another one of the reasons it's really handy to have insurance…

    Now it's up to you personally to take driver B to court and try to recover your damages. Otherwise you get nothing.

  • Hangryuman on 24/01/2023 - 11:08

    both at fault - claim on insurance

    if you don't have insurance, it's called self-insurance, when because you didn't pay for the insurance premium, you get to pay now instead

  • StingyBritches on 24/01/2023 - 12:04

    I believe car “C” is at fault.

    No correspondence will be entered into…

  • TigerWoops on 24/01/2023 - 16:07
    -1

    Car A has no way into by Car B so should wait whatever it is there. Also Car A has to cross the center line but Car B doesn't. Even Car B is at wrong side of the road it is not point. JUST be patient and wait until your way is clear. It is better than having an accident.

  • fourofjacks on 24/01/2023 - 17:19
    -4

    Car A at fault.

    According to diagram car b is already completely on the road traveling straight, car A then cuts him off.

    Given the bias from OP, most likely car B saw the issue and stopped to avoid collision, and car A has then also driven into car B.

    Car A may also expect fine for dangerous driving.

  • kaleidoscope on 24/01/2023 - 17:58

    From your description B at fault.

  • Name on 24/01/2023 - 18:22

    Given the update that you don't have insurance - just repair your own car and move on. You're both likely to be partially at fault (to different degrees as you're both on the wrong side of the road with respect to the driveway), and you'd be fighting their insurance company who'd have good lawyers.

    • If you lose, you'll be paying to repair your car, their car and their lawyers' fees.
    • If you're both found to be at fault (I think this will be the case - you'll be paying a percentage of lawyers fees, and a percentage of repair costs to both cars, the lawyers' fees will probably be much more than the repair costs).
    • if you win - you'll have lost a lot of time collecting evidence/advise/talking to lawyers/ taking time off work to fight this etc.

    *Cavet - if the damage has destroyed the frame of your car and isn't just cosmetic damage to your car door, anddd your car is expensive and is now a write-off. Then i'd try and fight it in court.

  • DASHCAM NOW DUDE on 24/01/2023 - 18:31
    +1

    Get a dashcam, people!

    • Euphemistic on 25/01/2023 - 09:56
      +1

      AFTER you get insurance though.

  • GG57 on 25/01/2023 - 11:04

    This would have been even more interesting if it was in Melbourne and a tram came along ding ding ding

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