Recommend Me a "Dumb" Car

Lglenr on 24/07/2023 - 18:56

I'm so over cars telling me how to drive.

Current car tech makes so much sense and no doubt it helps a lot of people, I get it, but it feels so intrusive and frustrating to live with the false positives:

  • lane keep assist: beeps/moves the wheel when I have to merge lanes to avoid a parked car
  • autonomous emergency breaking: slamming on the brakes to point of lock-up to avoid going through a spoon drain @ 5km/h is more dangerous than just going with it
  • blind spot monitoring: I don't need to be alerted to something that doesn't impact me unless I want to change lanes

I guess just want to drive a pre-2010 tech level of car but one that's new(ish).

My guess is most new cars will have some/most of the features above. Are there any cars (preferably mid-size wagons) that allow you to switch these features off and keep them off? Even if it means going in with an OBD tool?

Automotive

Comments

  • Mechz on 24/07/2023 - 18:58
    +86

    Lane keep assist doesn't do that if you use your indicators like a good driver would.

      • seannami on 24/07/2023 - 19:08
        +9

        I turned mine to alert only- one beep, and a vibrate if I don't move back. Also turned the sensitivity down.

        I'm pretty sure in most cars you can turn a lot of the 'Pilot'/ assist features off?

        • Tnetennba on 25/07/2023 - 14:32
          +2

          I'm not opposed to lane departure warnings and according to all the documentation for my vehicle (Hyundai i30), when the car starts it is in "warning" mode only.

          Yet, for some reason, it still yanks the wheel towards the middle of the lane if I am anywhere near the edge of it. So much for a "warning". It gets so annoying because it feels like something is constantly tugging on the wheel and making adjustments as you drive, to the point that I just turn it off every time I drive (it can't be permanently switched off).

          I have confirmed it's not even a fault, it's just how it is. I guess "warning" = "will input steering wheel corrections"

          The more aggressive mode (lane keeping assist) is as it is designed, it actually turns the wheel much more (as you'd expect). I don't see why the "warning" mode needs to do any steering adjustments.

          /rant

          • seannami on 25/07/2023 - 14:36

            @Tnetennba: Mine does tend to kick up to full mode on adaptive cruise control and I think (mine's an MG) that it can be speed dependent if you have it on auto? Under 40kms mine shows the lane keep icon as orange and doesn't much care if you don't drift too hard, but faster it goes green and starts the alarm. If you put cruise on (for traffic jam mode or similar), it returns to full so it sort of "drives" between the lines (rather than ping pong). Only tried it on full in the test drive so only know I found it a bit disconcerting.

      • ColtNoir on 25/07/2023 - 08:54
        +1

        Your example is a bad one and can be avoided.

        LKA only annoys me when it’s a poop road that has a trench that looks like a line and the car tries to push me into another lane.

        • ssfps on 26/07/2023 - 02:33
          +4

          That sounds really dangerous.

    • maiuspala on 25/07/2023 - 11:02
      +7

      I just got a new bt50 ute from work. At the beginning was very happy with all the new bells and whistles, but not so much any more.
      I feel it is a lot more dangerous to drive it. Especially lane assist, which is literally grabbing the wheel off my hands (yes, when using the indicator) and it isn't even trying to save me from anything, the lane next to me is empty.
      Same with braking. Just slamming on them for fun.
      But at the same time I feel like I am starting to rely on this tech more and more, which makes me a worse driver.

      • Protractor on 26/07/2023 - 14:21
        +1

        All this tech does is overwhelm drivers.(unless you have bought a new car every year for the last 10 years)
        It's much like safety matrix/risk/JSA/permit requirements in the workplace. (Mining,construction etc) . The amount of procedures is so massive, it ,makes a huge slab of the workplace paranoid. Especially when linked to LTI stats.
        It also results in less reporting on minor incidents and near misses.
        Giving people all these bells and whistles just creates a false security and a dependency that further degrades our attention skills.
        Oh for a hack to turn it off (safely)

    • stedmaster on 25/07/2023 - 16:35

      If you react to avoid a serious collision, like an oncoming motorist overtaking or another potentially lethal danger on the road by attempting to enter into a flush median or a shoulder, are your reflexes and spatial awareness also going to abide by the law and confirm your rear view mirror and blind spot and indicate for at least 5 seconds before performing the manoeuvre?

      All these systems have their pros and cons, but ultimately I'd still rather drive by my own hand uncontested.

    • dsgfh on 26/07/2023 - 08:54
      +1

      Our lane departure warning kicks in every time you're turning a corner with 2+ lanes of traffic & we're on the outside lane.
      Lane keeping assist also has a tendency to make too aggressive corrections when you're still safely in the lane & none are required.

      There's simply a subtlety to driving smoothly that they aren't built for

    • Cyphar on 27/07/2023 - 13:59

      Yeah OP just outed himself as a (profanity) lol

  • Muzeeb on 24/07/2023 - 18:59
    +28

    Thank God there are others that don't want to be dumbed down by tech designed to make useless drivers feel safe.

    What's your budget?

    • glenr on 24/07/2023 - 19:01
      +4

      There's dozens of us!

      Budget of $70k or thereabouts.

      • Muzeeb on 24/07/2023 - 19:15
        +19

        preferably mid-size wagon

        Found it

      • johndoh89 on 26/07/2023 - 20:28

        My Rav4 has the bells and whistles, and a simple menu to turn them off, it remembers the state between drives.

        Good simple boring well marked road. On goes adaptive cruise and lane assist.

        Blind spot monitor is set to just put a little light on the mirror so I can tell it thinks something is there when I check

    • Morphio25 on 25/07/2023 - 09:32
      +5

      I thought I was the only one who hated the tech in newer cars.

      Do you hate push button start as well? I much prefer turning a key but am resigned to the fact my next car will most likely be push button :(

      • seannami on 25/07/2023 - 09:38
        +3

        If there's a button at all, some now you just…get in

        • Morphio25 on 25/07/2023 - 11:29

          Oh god, that shows how out of touch I am with modern cars. My car is a 2015 model i30 I got in 2016 and that was only because my previous car got written off.

      • rumblytangara on 25/07/2023 - 11:35
        +12

        I don't mind a push button, but find a button-activated handbrake a weird idea.

        • johndoh89 on 26/07/2023 - 20:30

          The Rav4 just engages it when you put it in park. And disengages when you move to drive. I found it weird to start with. There is a button, but occasionally I do an air stomp to where the one in my Camry is on the floor.

      • smartazz104 on 25/07/2023 - 11:58
        +4

        I want engine cranks to come back.

        • pegaxs on 25/07/2023 - 12:32
          +4

          I want real driver's aids like having my man servant walk in front of my car and wave a red flag as I drive…

      • rooster7777 on 25/10/2023 - 19:39

        The last car of mine that had a push button… it was one of those new fangled jagwarrrrs!
        About a 1954 Mk 7, with the 4 on the floor, overdrive, 3.8L DOHC engine, and of course lucas electrics and english cooling system.
        It was a great runner after I replaced the head gasket! Got about 10 tankfulls out of it (double tanks, 1 each side) before the engine finally returned to coventry with a bang.

    • dsgfh on 26/07/2023 - 08:56

      Manufactureres can't get their max ANCAP rating without them enabled every time the car starts

    • kaleidoscope on 26/07/2023 - 14:45

      make useless drivers feel safe

      I tend to think of it as tech that potentially prevents useless drivers cause problems to other good drivers and road users

  • pao2x on 24/07/2023 - 19:05
    +1

    I hate the lane assist intrusions as well. If only there was a way to tweak the false positives , the sounds or turn it off

    • EightImmortals on 25/07/2023 - 07:22
      +3

      What car is it?
      We got the RAV in 2021 and turned all that crap off as soon as I got it home.

      • pao2x on 27/07/2023 - 19:19

        Not my personal car but one at the house. Musso

    • YellowDieselGolf on 26/07/2023 - 19:56

      There appears to be differences in quality between systems. My personal car’s nannies are pretty good. You can enable/disable what you want and I’ve had only a couple of false positives.
      I’ve had Mitsubishi and Toyota for work and found them to be annoying (beeping for no reason) and far more likely to intervene without cause.

      • johndoh89 on 26/07/2023 - 20:32

        All the Toyotas I've driven have 99% of their options available from the steering wheel to turn off permanently.

        The other 1% are buried so far into the infotainment system I doubt the designer could even tell you the sequence from the top of their head.

        But they are still disablable at least.

  • May4th on 24/07/2023 - 19:07
    +4

    I've always wondered.. "what car will survive an EMP attack"

    • glenr on 24/07/2023 - 19:10
      +1

      Top Gear might be onto something with the late 80s Hilux

    • altomic on 24/07/2023 - 21:17
      +4

      I have a 1970 renault in my garage for just an scenerio

    • magic8ballgag on 25/07/2023 - 08:27
      +3

      I've always wondered.."will we ever experience an EMP attack?"

    • nigel deborah on 25/07/2023 - 11:21
      +3

      Any car that doesn't survive an EMP will get nicked out of your driveway (much more likely to happen as well haha)

      • May4th on 25/07/2023 - 12:00
        +4

        we need a ozb prepper subforum - "what's the best deal you've gotten on canned baked beans" "how to irradiate your canned tuna on a budget"

    • smartazz104 on 25/07/2023 - 11:59

      Most people here would be more worried about their PCs not working I reckon…

      • May4th on 25/07/2023 - 12:01
        +2

        indeed. what's the point of an apocalypse when you can't even make a tiktok out of it?

    • skillet on 25/07/2023 - 12:42

      Anything without fuel injector.

      • UFO on 25/07/2023 - 13:19

        Yep… no CPU, no worries.

        Mind you, if there's an EMP strong enough being emitted by either a foreign power or the Sun, I think the EMP issues would just be the beginning of a very bad day.

        • ssfps on 26/07/2023 - 02:41

          I know you're mostly joking, but high altitude nukes apparently emit devastating EMPs without making any physical destruction or dirty fallout, so I can definitely imagine scenarios where an EMP is the first indication of a global conflict and your car surviving it being a useful feature.

      • skillet on 25/07/2023 - 13:52
        +1

        Sorry, I mean anything with a Caburator but then you would have problem drawing fuel from the petrol station because most of the pumps have some sort of electronics controlling them.

        • NigelPearson on 26/07/2023 - 20:42

          I remember, as a kid, an old Lee Majors movie. It showed him using a hand crank pump with a long hose dropped into the underground tanks.

          Quick search reveals it was "The Last Chase".

          this will set us back to the 1980s

  • Stopback on 24/07/2023 - 19:11
    +1

    Small issues but when it saves you it's very worth while.

  • Ghost47 on 24/07/2023 - 19:12
    +4

    I definitely think that safety tech in cars these days are making people worse drivers. Studies indicate that people tend to end up relying on these safety features too much and that they end up worse drivers because of it. On top of that, more electronics in a car just means more chance of things failing and more money to diagnose and fix.

    Can't really recommend cars and wagons specifically aren't very common anymore, and the ones that are on sale now I would assume have all these safety features (unless you buy the most basic trim, which is not desirable IMO). You'd have to buy an older car to get a real "dumb" car, maybe something like a Liberty wagon?

    • glenr on 24/07/2023 - 19:15

      With my sample size of myself, I'd agree with that. I've gotten lazy with parking, relying on sensors and so-on more than I should. Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) also has made me lazy with gapping (not necessarily a bad thing).

    • Juice-Wa on 25/07/2023 - 09:17
      +5

      Probably because we won't be driving cars in the near future… A lot of people are dumb, braindead drivers with or without smart features so bring on the automation.

    • Fredorishi on 25/07/2023 - 11:01
      +8

      Which "studies" would that be?

      • Ghost47 on 25/07/2023 - 16:47
        +2

        This article points to this study as an example. This is another article which points to this study.

        A search online shows multiple articles citing studies about how driver assistant technologies are making people worse drivers.

        • Fredorishi on 25/07/2023 - 21:55
          +6

          Hmmmm. Interesting. Thanks for the links. Not an expert on reading study data, but I'll give it a go.

          First one says "The findings indicate that drivers monitor their surroundings less and redirect their gaze to system displays when using automated steering while parking." - which kinda makes sense to me. If the car's doing it for you, do you really need to do as much monitoring outside? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn't really say it makes them "worse drivers"

          In the second one it says this: "In the VCC data set, speeding-related performance errors were observed in 11% of sampled epochs in which ACC and LKA were used together, significantly fewer than when driving under similar conditions with the automation available but not in use (17.5%). However, drivers in the MFA data set showed the opposite trend, with speeding being more prevalent when both systems were active compared to when no systems were active (19% versus 16%, respectively)." - which, if I'm reading it right says that there was MORE speeding when they were using CRUISE CONTROL (and lane keep assist) - I mean, gotta go with the data, but that seems a bit nuts to me. How does anyone speed MORE with cruise control?? - the bit about more drowsiness makes more sense but then this "When looking specifically at possible drowsiness-related SCEs, the number of valid events was too low to form any conclusions based on the available data." - so I'm not really convinced that one says that they are "worse drivers" either.

          And plenty of sensational headlines. Haven't read them all of course, but I did read a few. And the word "fear mongering" comes to mind. I had to laugh at this one that has this headline "New Car Technology Is Making Us Worse Drivers. But It Doesn’t Have To." - it then talks about rear-view cameras and then has this quote: "Another IIHS study found that back-over crashes have declined a humble 17 percent." LOL - so the cameras have LESSENED the number of crashes, but just not by a big enough number? LOL https://slate.com/technology/2021/01/drive-assist-technology…

          Again, I appreciate the links. I could even be cherry picking cos tired and you know, human. I'm certainly happy to change my mind, but that didn't do it for me. I mean, people have been saying the same stuff since the introduction of automatics. And to be honest, it smells a little bit like the 'ole toxic masculinity to me(said with trepedation) Ahhhhh, using an automatic is for girls, it will make you a worse driver. *eyeroll.

          Happy to read anything else you would like to add. Happy to change my mind based on further evidence. Stuff that shows crash data for example. Or what insurance companies have to say. Will keep looking myself too. Might even read the rest of the discussion here. Lol. Interesting topic. Cheers.

          • Ghost47 on 25/07/2023 - 22:50
            +1

            @Fredorishi: All good. I’m not saying it’s 100% certain because everyone’s different. It definitely is an interesting thing to think about!

          • johndoh89 on 26/07/2023 - 20:38
            +1

            @Fredorishi: If I go downhill in my 2012 Camry with cruise control on and set to 100kmh, it will get to 110kmh easily.

            The 2020 Rav4 is slightly better but still runs away on a steep enough hill.

            Generally I don't have them on because of this unless it is flat and straight, even though I comfortably sit on 100km/h when driving manually.

            • Fredorishi on 27/07/2023 - 01:06

              @johndoh89: I get what you're saying, but its pretty easy to notice when you're going down a steep enough hill to make your speed increase that much imho. Also pretty easy to use the cruise control to adjust or just brake if that happens. Personally, I'm not going to refuse to use cc due to occasional steep hill. Different if you live in the mountains i guess.

            • andresampras on 28/07/2023 - 10:55
              +1

              @johndoh89: There are different types of cruise control. Is it possible your cars have the 'accelerator-only' version?

              Newer cars apply both accelerator and brake as needed.

              Having said that, a common misconception is that if a car has a feature, it'll work well. Some features (lane assist, for example) have huge variation in implementation quality from brand to brand.

      • 900dollaridoos on 26/07/2023 - 14:31

        Why do you smugly put "studies" in quotation marks but not actually check?
        I literally just highlighted his sentence and put it in Google. Timed it and it took me 14 seconds to find this:
        https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2231

        • Fredorishi on 27/07/2023 - 01:15

          What are you on about, mate? Are you replying to me? I think you might be reading a bit much emotion in to a set of " ". Did you not see the lengthy reply I made which included a bunch of quotations from said studies which indicated i obviously "read" them. Or "skimmed" them "glanced" at them. "Studied" the "studies" if you prefer. I dunno, i probably used the " " because he didnt reference them in his origin post. Maybe i just have crap "grammar". Or maybe i was just dubious that properly set up and conducted studies existed to support his claim. There wasnt much in the ones that ended up being linked. So yeah "studies". Does that make me "smug"? Maybe. Lol. Cheers for pointing that out.

        • Fredorishi on 27/07/2023 - 01:27

          And honestly. That "study" you linked appears to be a sorry excuse for a "study". Certainly the worst of the lot I've read.. 10 participants? Give me a break. Hardly any better than anecdotal evidence. Im far from an expert but can tell it's crap. What instruments did they use to collect the data? what controls were put in place? Etc etc. Can i suggest you utilise your fabulous skills to look up what decent scientific research entails? Just a suggestion. Not trying (too hard) to be smug. Cheers..

    • dtc on 25/07/2023 - 14:39
      +1

      deaths and injuries from motor vehicle crashes are dropping considerably in terms of rate per head of population/rate per km driven. Perhaps safety features have made people worse drivers (although that argument was also made against seat belts); but the features seem to have reduced the consequences faster than the increase in poor driving

    • morebunnings on 25/07/2023 - 18:14
      +4

      The real question though should be which is more dangerous: a good driver without safety features or a worse driver with safety features.

      • Protractor on 26/07/2023 - 17:00
        -1

        Obvious answer

    • dsgfh on 26/07/2023 - 08:56
      +2

      It's not the safety tech. People are just getting more distracted & have shorter attention spans on the road overall

    • derrida derider on 26/07/2023 - 10:02
      +2

      "Studies indicate that people tend to end up relying on these safety features too much and that they end up worse drivers because of it".

      With any safety improvement there is always some offsetting compensatory behaviour (make roads safer and people drive faster, make cars more survivable in a crash and people will be more willing to risk crashes, build redundant safety systems in a plane and each system will not be maintained as carefully, mandate safety barriers for working on roofs and roofers will fall over more often, reduce caffeine in coffee and addicts drink more cups, etc) but that behaviour almost never outweighs the improvement, as the historical road safety statistics clearly show.

      Sure, lane keeping assist is going to make people who don't watch where they're going a little slacker but it radically reduces the consequence of that slackness. So saying LKA "makes people worse drivers" is exactly the same as saying "ABS means people don't know how to brake properly" - true, but that is because they don't need to.

      That LKA is often over-enthusiastic is a separate issue; it's an argument for better LKA rather than no LKA.

      • Ghost47 on 26/07/2023 - 17:36
        +1

        Sure, lane keeping assist is going to make people who don't watch where they're going a little slacker but it radically reduces the consequence of that slackness.

        If it makes them slacker doesn't that imply that they are a worse driver? I don't see how the reduced consequence is really relevant, it's like saying "the person didn't die because their airbags deployed", sure but the thing is, they still got into an accident in the first place (assuming they were at fault of the crash of course).

        So saying LKA "makes people worse drivers" is exactly the same as saying "ABS means people don't know how to brake properly" - true, but that is because they don't need to.

        If I had to choose between flying in a plane with a pilot who has only ever used auto pilot compared to a pilot who has experience manually flying a plane (as well as using auto pilot) I would choose the person who has experience in manual flying. I know this isn't a realistic example, it's the point I'm trying to make. If someone's learning to drive they need to learn all the fundamentals like doing head checks, staying centred in their lane, maintaining a distance to the car ahead etc. Safety features like Blindspot Monitoring, Lane Keep Assist/Lane Departure Warning and Autonomous Cruise Control mean that drivers no longer need to focus on doing those things.

  • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 19:15
    +3

    You might be limited to an older vehicle. Some cars will allow you to disable the driver ‘assist’ features, but normally will reset to active when you restart.

    I’ve just learned to deal with mine. Lane keeper is a bit annoying, but not very often since I’m more used to it. Auto braking hasn’t gone off for a while as I set it to the shortest distance, but I also leave a bit more room (mostly). Blind spot monitoring isn’t intrusive as a light in the mirrors - but is when it shoved you back into your lane.

    I have heard for cars with camera technology blocking the camera will turn off assist. Some have been known to put a business card between the camera and the windscreen. Not sure how an insurance claim would go if you’ve disabled the feature in a similar way.

    Ultimately, get something pre assist features and get it refurbished.

    • glenr on 24/07/2023 - 19:19

      I think you might be right.

      A previous car was a 2010 MK6 Golf GTI. It had most of safety stuff I want, but none of the stuff I don't. It's just 13 years old now so misses out on other good safety stuff (more airbag coverage to name a key one).

  • boomramada on 24/07/2023 - 19:31
    +5

    You know you could buy a any 2023 car and turn those off and act dumb ?

    • kerfuffle on 24/07/2023 - 19:33
      +15

      Having to turn them off every time you get in the car is annoying though, as someone who has a 2023 car

      • justdigi on 24/07/2023 - 19:37
        +1

        Depends on the make/model. I hate driver aids but my partner loves them. Our car has smart keys which the dealer programmed for us. When my key is used the aids are turned off - I don’t have to do it every time it starts.

        • kerfuffle on 24/07/2023 - 19:44
          +3

          I don't think my smart key is that smart. I turned the LDA off once and it turned itself back on next time I started the car (I drive a Corolla). At least the i30 has a button on the steering wheel you can just press; Corolla you have to dig into about five levels of settings

          • seannami on 25/07/2023 - 09:42
            +1

            @kerfuffle: I think from memory the settings that turn back on are a legal requirement in Europe so they just kept it in the software? Mine if you turn them OFF they turn back on, but if you turn them down (low sensitivity, minor alert only) they stay that way. A little beep here and there is a bit less annoying than car pingpong.

            On the beep issue- do hybrid Toyotas still beep on the inside when you're in reverse? That pooped me up the wall…

            • kerfuffle on 25/07/2023 - 09:45

              @seannami:

              do hybrid Toyotas still beep on the inside when you're in reverse?

              I don't have parking sensors, so no

              • seannami on 25/07/2023 - 09:46

                @kerfuffle: It wasn't parking sensors- just being in reverse beeped (like a truck, but inside), was a pain in the butt, glad they got rid

                • kerfuffle on 25/07/2023 - 09:48
                  +1

                  @seannami: I've had multiple Corollas for the past two decades and none of them have beeped when reversing. Sounds like a third-party modification.

            • miicah on 25/07/2023 - 18:40

              @seannami: Was it an import? All Japanese cars are required to audibly beep (inside the cabin) when in reverse.

              • seannami on 26/07/2023 - 07:24

                @miicah: Nope, though the beeps could have been a legacy from Japan that they didn't take out when they sold them here.

        • boomramada on 24/07/2023 - 19:47

          Or have a user profile, like windows, just as Windows, sometimes computer say no lol

          But seriously why ppl hate lane assistance and blind spot monitoring, that's the best bit.

          • kerfuffle on 24/07/2023 - 19:52
            +4

            @boomramada: I like Blind Spot Monitoring, but lane assist/lane keep/lane departure warning is annoying. e.g. trying to avoid potholes

            • boomramada on 25/07/2023 - 09:19

              @kerfuffle: Ah fair enough, mine doesn't bother me however i find new Volvo got the best lane keep in the market.

            • IM-Cheap on 25/07/2023 - 11:57

              @kerfuffle: I really like the lane departure warning, i dont have lane keeping assist though. On pot holes its only a few seconds beeping and doesnt sound if you have the indicator on which I normally do. I love blindspot monitoring.

              I still have doubts emergency breaking will work - have never had it activate.

        • glenr on 24/07/2023 - 19:54

          Interesting! What car is that?

          • justdigi on 24/07/2023 - 20:12
            +1

            @glenr: Might be a Volkswagen Group thing, my partner says our previous car had it too. Cars are Skoda Scala/Audi A3, which are practically the same car.

  • brendanm on 24/07/2023 - 19:40
    +1

    Mine allows me to turn these bits and pieces off. Do you want a 4wd style wagon, or a sedan based wagon?

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