Ban Beef and Lamb - Eat Only Chicken - Save Money and The Environment

eckorock on 02/08/2023 - 16:34
Last edited 02/08/2023 - 16:34

This is an analogy for banning gas and forcing people to use electricity.

If you ban gas in residential, it will save people money (gas is more expensive), and it is better for the environment (long term, as more electricity is powered by renewable).

If we ban Coles from selling beef and lamb products, it will save people money (beef is more expensive than chicken), and beef production is also significantly worse for the environment. It requires much more litres of water per gram of protein and produces huge amounts of methane gas and has other negative consequences that chicken doesn't have.

Is this analogy accurate?
To my eyes it seems as good as any analogy can be. Not perfect but as close as you can get.

Would people accept it if existing residential gas was (slowly) banned and you were forced to convert to electric? I feel like this is inevitably coming.
What about if they slowly introduced bans on expensive beef and lamb? I don't think anyone would tolerate this except for vegan activists.
What's the difference?

Poll Options

  • 481
    This is a weak analogy
  • 40
    This is a clever analogy
Food & Grocery

Comments

      • SpainKing on 05/08/2023 - 14:01

        Does that mean it always has to and nothing will change? So we should just accept the status quo and not try to make better decisions going in to the future? I don't really understand your "gotcha" comment here

        • trapper on 05/08/2023 - 23:37

          Nothing will change while nuclear power is outlawed here, so we are stuck with coal power for the foreseeable future.

          We need around 15GW of nuclear power to really get free of coal power in Australia. Even then we would probably still have to rely on some natural gas, but far-far cleaner than all that dirty old coal.

          Gas is our best option currently, and the best place to use it is directly in the home where all that 'waste heat' (that power plants need to get rid of) can actually heat the thing you wanted heating.

  • TheRealCher on 03/08/2023 - 15:46

    Soylent green, my friends….

  • kaleidoscope on 03/08/2023 - 15:59

    Is this analogy accurate?

    No. Far from it and quite ridiculous.

    To my eyes it seems as good as any analogy can be. Not perfect but as close as you can get.

    Should've gone to specsavers?

    Would people accept it if existing residential gas was (slowly) banned and you were forced to convert to electric?

    I have no problem with that. But the only thing is, it has to be affordable. If govt wants to save on energy costs, better subsidise other forms of heat/cool solutions as well (ever heard of geo thermal heat/cooling?) and also enforce stricter and better insulation requirements for homes. The current standards are nothing short of pathetic to say the least.

    What about if they slowly introduced bans on expensive beef and lamb? I don't think anyone would tolerate this except for vegan activists.

    Not going to happen. Without cows how would you produce dairy products/ infant formula etc…

    What's the difference?

    Beef is more delicious while goat / lamb has a strong leafy taste which I don't personally prefer. But I wouldn't reject a rack of lamb dish any time >.<

    • TEER3X on 03/08/2023 - 17:24

      I remember someone on ozbargain saying they raised their kids on a vegan diet since birth and they grew up to be normal and successful.

      Not sure if the kids were breastfed for 4 years or not though.

      • kaleidoscope on 03/08/2023 - 17:43

        probably on celery juice

  • Taro Milk Tea on 03/08/2023 - 17:06
    -2

    How about we start selling insects? High in protein and good for environment!

    • TEER3X on 03/08/2023 - 17:22

      I remember seeing an American shark tank episode with that idea, not sure how they went but if all true and tastes good, seems like a reasonable idea.

      I'll be converting my house to electric only once the rebates become available, no sense in paying for two utilities that do the same thing

  • amzinguserman on 03/08/2023 - 17:18
    +4

    JFC people will really align their "freedoms" with the stupidest things.

    "Banning gas stoves is a slippery slope towards woke communism" according to totally not biased "news" website i follow which happens to be also funded and owned by mining companies.

    • Ghost47 on 03/08/2023 - 19:58

      Just goes to show how polarised people are these days. We are really in a weird cycle right now, 10 years ago it didn't feel this weird and divided.

      • stringbean402 on 05/08/2023 - 10:05

        Society isn’t necessarily polarised. The issue we have at the moment is the small minorities with their very specific agendas are getting huge press on every little perceived issue… hello abc, news.com.au, the project etc etc

        Polarisation makes people angry, it’s gets them to watch tv, open the click bait articles on the news websites…. And the ABC has always been a woke leftists dream job. All this keeps the wheels turning.

        Peace, agreement and harmony is no good for business when your trying to sell controversy.

    • p1 ama on 03/08/2023 - 22:21

      "Banning gas stoves is a slippery slope towards woke communism"

      The most bloody stupid thing is that we're not even banning gas stoves. If you currently have a gas stove, you can still continue using it. I genuinely can't believe some people…

  • idonotknowwhy on 03/08/2023 - 17:32

    I'm out of the loop but are we getting a legit ban on gas in Victoria? As in, I'll have to get a new stove top and hot water system in a couple of years?

    Anyway, analogy sucks because banning beef and lamb will send more people into the healthcare system for a couple of decades as we all get frail and weak.
    Forcing people to swap over to electric cooking/heating/hot water will just by annoying and (profanity) over those of us without the capital to convert our shit over.

    • Jolakot on 05/08/2023 - 12:03
      +2

      No, just for new builds or extensive renovations, it's a nothing outrage

  • trapper on 03/08/2023 - 18:17
    +2

    They shouldn't be banning any of this stuff.

  • conza on 03/08/2023 - 18:33

    I really couldn't care less, in a house that has gas, if they cut off gas tomorrow.

    Beef and Lamb? From my cold, dead, hands.

  • ChickenTalon on 03/08/2023 - 19:13

    Poor analogy.

    You can’t compare beef/lamb against chicken for a few key nutrients like iron and B12 etc. Chicken is not a red meat and it’s pretty lean. And this is 100% subjective, but eating red meat just “feels” better, compared to pork or chicken. Hard to describe, but red meat just satisfies in a way that white meats don’t seem to.

    Re Gas: Energy from gas V’s other sources is roughly equivalent. It’s energy. Wouldn’t bother me either way. Other than my stove and hot water are gas, so switching would be an irritating cost.

    Full disclosure: I’ve been a carnivore for many years and mostly eat beef and lamb with a very little bit of pork/fish/chicken. So I’m always going to be against banning my only source of food.

  • ssfps on 03/08/2023 - 19:29
    +1

    I'm going to burn tyres in my backyard to make up for being told i'm not allowed to cook with clean gas heat, and have to use shitty electrical cooking instead. Checkmate Eco-capitalist fascists.

    I'm guessing most commenters here mostly subsist on uber-eats or frozen meals, or they're wealthy enough to throw away most of their cookware and buy comparatively expensive quality induction systems + cookware.
    I'm just imagining telling a commercial kitchen they can't cook with gas anymore because "energy is all the same". LOL.

    • [Deactivated] on 03/08/2023 - 21:27
      +1

      I'm just imagining telling a commercial kitchen they can't cook with gas

      Most decent places that don't burn the shit out of your food have already switched away from gas a long time ago for better temperature control and lower cost. Place that would suffer are asian restaurants that use woks. Then again induction woks and wok induction stoves exist.

      • spedohero on 03/08/2023 - 22:26

        No wok hei!

    • p1 ama on 03/08/2023 - 22:26
      +3

      I'm going to burn tyres in my backyard to make up for being told i'm not allowed to cook with clean gas heat, and have to use shitty electrical cooking instead. Checkmate Eco-capitalist fascists.

      Stop being a moron. Who's telling you you're not allowed to cook with gas?

      I'm just imagining telling a commercial kitchen they can't cook with gas anymore because "energy is all the same". LOL.

      All energy is actually the same because all that matters is the degree of heat and how quickly you can reach that heat. If you think that "gas heat" and "electric heat" are different.

      FWIW, have you actually worked in a commercial kitchen? Family member of mine own a restaurant and use induction. They've said that it makes business sense (due to lower costs), and superior cooking - i.e. better temperature control, heat kicks in much more quickly and much more even heat.

      • ssfps on 03/08/2023 - 23:42
        -1

        Yes, 20 years ago I did. Gas provided control and rapidity that electrics of the time couldn't go anywhere near. I'm aware some induction can (somewhat) compete now, but gas still has benefits and flexibility for cooking that induction doesn't, and you don't have to buy new cookware.

        All energy is actually the same

        Thanks for the lesson in thermodynamics. Why not run your electric heater in your roof space too right, after all heat is heat.

        Stop being a moron

        No u.

        • p1 ama on 04/08/2023 - 13:29

          Gas provided control and rapidity that electrics of the time couldn't go anywhere near.

          Yes, induction is a far better technology to resistive, and much superior to gas.

          I'm aware some induction can (somewhat) compete now, but gas still has benefits and flexibility for cooking that induction doesn't, and you don't have to buy new cookware.

          What are the benefits and flexibility?

          New cookware is an irrelevant point, nobody is forcing anyone to transition from gas to electric overnight.

          Thanks for the lesson in thermodynamics. Why not run your electric heater in your roof space too right, after all heat is heat.

          Yes, heat is heat. There are plenty of people who run heat pump heaters instead of gas heaters for whole house heating. The heat that comes out of the ducts is exactly the same.

          No u.

          Look at the rest of the sentence. "Who's telling you you're not allowed to cook with gas?". Don't be disingenuous. Cooking with gas is not "banned".

        • larndis on 04/08/2023 - 16:09

          You might not be aware but some things have changed in the last 20 years

        • SpainKing on 05/08/2023 - 14:14

          Bloke, you're living 20 years in the past. Things have changed

          I'm going to burn tyres in my backyard to make up for being told i'm not allowed to cook with clean gas heat, and have to use shitty electrical cooking instead. Checkmate Eco-capitalist fascists.

          You're going to be outrageously selfish and moronic by burning tires for no reason in a futile attempt to influence government policy/make yourself feel better? This is the equivalent of "old man yells at cloud."

          As for "clean gas heat," gas is one of the least clean fuel sources around. All the unburnt particulates go in to your lungs if you don't have a good enough extraction device and/or good ventilation immediately around the cooking area

          • ssfps on 05/08/2023 - 21:27

            @SpainKing:

            You're going to be outrageously selfish and moronic by burning tires for no reason

            Due to this outrageous insult i'm going to throw my old car batteries into the river too.

            • SpainKing on 05/08/2023 - 23:33

              @ssfps: Hope you don't slip and that they're not still capable of producing current. That would be quite the comeuppance

              • ssfps on 06/08/2023 - 01:24

                @SpainKing: Nah they never have enough energy in them to do anything if you drop them in the water with your feet in, even in brackish or sea water.

                • SpainKing on 06/08/2023 - 12:04

                  @ssfps: Fair enough, thanks for the fact. Looks like this ain't your first rodeo dumping batteries

      • Ghost47 on 04/08/2023 - 17:02

        What kind of food does your family member cook?

  • Youi2018 on 03/08/2023 - 21:37
    +1

    Can someone please explain how electricity is better for the environment then gas ?

    • Champ888 on 03/08/2023 - 22:02

      Because it all comes from clean wind turbines remember. Oh so breathtakingly sustainable!

    • Black Brown Blue on 04/08/2023 - 10:17
      +1

      90% of electricity is produced using coal, gas, fuel. Renewable contribute to 10%. EV vehicles battery ingredients are mined. EV and electricity is not as green as they sell it.

      • SpainKing on 05/08/2023 - 14:17

        Oh, way less green than coal, gas, fuel and all the associated mining to procure those. I wish my lightbulbs still ran on gas rather than this gross electricity the grubberment keeps pushing

    • Subada on 04/08/2023 - 15:07
      +3

      Because the gas network leaks all the time (passively, even without a rupture or major damage) and unburned methane is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2.

      Also we are in the process of decarbonising our electrical supply. This is an ongoing process which could've been done faster if not for rightoids getting their knickers in a twist. You can't decarbonise natural gas.

      • trapper on 04/08/2023 - 16:43

        You can't decarbonise natural gas.

        Sure but there is no point in burning coal instead, which is much worse for the environment.

        • Subada on 04/08/2023 - 17:47
          +1

          Like I said, we are in the process of decarbonising out electrical supply and it's not like gas is being banned nationwide immediately either. It's just not allowed to be built in new developments.

          Why continue building a dangerous, greenhouse gas emitting, parallel energy network and installing gas water heaters, gas cooktops and gas heating in houses when we're switching to renewables anyway?

          • trapper on 04/08/2023 - 18:29

            @Subada: That's the thing though, we are not actually in process of decarbonising our electrical supply, or switching to renewables.

            We are primarily burning coal for our electricity needs and there is no realistic plan to change this any time in the foreseeable future.

  • Champ888 on 03/08/2023 - 22:00
    +1

    So many apologists for government overreach. Lefty tentacles everywhere… ban everything, control everything and importantly ultimately make you dependent. Remember things happen slowly and then suddenly.

    • [Deactivated] on 04/08/2023 - 10:23
      +3

      I know right? Damn LeFtIeS. We should follow this genius' example and keep things as they are 🤡:
      https://youtu.be/ea5bOaPkZpc?t=25

      Overreach? We've had cowboy governments for the past decade that advocated against change, didn't feel the need to heavily regulate anything in this area or plan for the future and we're still in a shitty place today, lol. Not just environmentally buy cost-wise as well. Might as well try the opposite for once. You're welcome to move to another state (or probably a 3rd world country since Libs have been voted out of most states here)

      Also ACT has had similar arrangements for a while now, what VIC is doing is nothing new. Even most builders(even non-dodgy ones) hate anything to do with gas and have been avoiding it on several new projects. But keep pretending like the world is ending, lol.

      • Aureus on 04/08/2023 - 14:47
        +3

        How dare the government stops me from making poor choices. 😤

        Let me install gas in to my new home and then complain how expensive my gas bills are and the government should be doing something to help.

    • Subada on 04/08/2023 - 15:04
      +3

      Let me overreach my lefty tentacles inside you senpai UwU

    • Champ888 on 04/08/2023 - 19:55

      What a fool believes he sees

  • p1 ama on 03/08/2023 - 22:20
    +4

    Is this analogy accurate? To my eyes it seems as good as any analogy can be. Not perfect but as close as you can get.

    It's not a good analogy because when one chooses to eat chicken or to eat beef / lamb, they do it not just for the caloric (or protein) value of the meat, but also for the taste, texture, flavour…etc. which are not the same. With gas / electric, one is not really using gas or using electric, but rather, the energy that comes from gas / electric sources to produce heat.

    In other words, if you were presented a chicken dish and a beef dish, you would be able to tell the difference between them and they provide you a different experience. If you were to take a shower with hot water heated with a heat pump or heated with a gas hot water tank, you would not be able to tell the difference between them and they provide you the exact same experience.

    • eckorock on 03/08/2023 - 23:47

      yes that's a very good point! perfectly put

  • spedohero on 03/08/2023 - 22:25

    Is gas really more expensive than electricity? For gas it has rate lower when more gas is used compared to electricity which you pay higher rate when you used more.

    • ssfps on 03/08/2023 - 23:43

      Gas is absolutely cheaper anywhere it's produced as a byproduct (such as WA).

  • dmbminaret on 04/08/2023 - 01:48

    How would Melbourne survive without sloppy steaks on the menu?
    https://youtu.be/uMcAagFNrPY

  • Sinnerator on 04/08/2023 - 08:18
    +1

    no

  • Black Brown Blue on 04/08/2023 - 10:14
    -1

    Gas is cheaper e.g gas heater vs electric heater/aircon. Gas stove >> electric stove.
    You need to educate yourself how electricity is made using 3 ingredients - coal, gas, fuel. Renewable make less than 10% of production. The propoganda media and government sell you is a lie. Both gas and electricity are harmful to environment.

    • [Deactivated] on 04/08/2023 - 10:31

      Renewable make less than 10% of production

      I wonder why?: https://youtu.be/ea5bOaPkZpc?t=25

    • Tleyx on 04/08/2023 - 12:18
      +2

      What country do you live in because Australia has around 40 percent of production as renewable

      https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2023/01/30/renewable-e….

      • itsmeboston on 04/08/2023 - 16:36

        https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/energy/overview

        "Coal accounts for about 75 per cent of Australia’s electricity generation, followed by gas (16 per cent), hydro (5 per cent) and wind around (2 per cent)."

        "At present renewable energy sources account for only modest proportions of Australia’s primary energy consumption (around 5 per cent) and electricity generation (7 per cent), although their use has been increasing strongly in recent years."

        last updated June 22

        • Tleyx on 05/08/2023 - 10:43

          Thats a year old. And is still way more than 10 percent

          How much of gas is renewable?

    • capslock janitor on 04/08/2023 - 13:54
      -2

      GAS STOVE IS KING

      BETTER THAN ANY ELECTRIC RUBBISH WHICH THEY MAKE YOU BUY SPECIFIC INDUCTIVE PANS

  • Talsek on 04/08/2023 - 10:49
    -1

    At least the way it's going in my household,we're essentially flexitarian anyways. I see no reason to "ban" red meat but I think it definitely could be less of a mainstay in most people's diets,maybe like a once/twice a week thing.

  • Munki on 04/08/2023 - 12:09

    We should breed guinea pigs for consumption. They breed pretty quickly too.

  • havabeer on 04/08/2023 - 12:54

    Is the ultimate question here, go Vegan, save money and the environment?

  • OBEY YOUR MASTERS on 04/08/2023 - 14:52
    +1

    Growing beef does not "use" water. When I buy a steak at the butchers i dont get 100 litres if water with it.

    • Aureus on 04/08/2023 - 14:59
      +3

      I hope you are not being serious.

      • OBEY YOUR MASTERS on 05/08/2023 - 13:48

        Absolutley. Where does the water go?? Is it whisked into the ether never to be seen again? Pure sillyness.

        • idonotknowwhy on 08/08/2023 - 10:52

          I think it gets pissed / shat out by the cow, dries up and becomes clouds, which rain down again later?

  • Subada on 04/08/2023 - 15:11

    To echo other people in this thread, your analogy isn't good because

    1) There's a big difference in end-product between a meal made with different kinds of meat vs a meal made on a cooktop in a pan powered with different kinds of energy. The two aren't comparable.

    2) You're implying people love heating their home with gas as much as they love eating red meat. It's a rhetorical technique to push the thing you want (people to use gas) by tying it to something with broad popularity (eating beef). The analogy doesn't serve any other purpose but this and seems stretched/tortured because you need to explain the nuanced health, moral and economic implications of red meat consumption before even starting. So the analogy doesn't make a complicated situation simpler to understand, which in my opinion is the best use of analogies.

  • Technics on 04/08/2023 - 18:04
    +1

    This guy's making a mutton out of a mole hill. Let them eat steak.

    • sriver on 04/08/2023 - 18:13

      or perhaps a meat shake?

  • congo on 04/08/2023 - 18:35

    Grow artifical meat?
    Didn't someone invent a car that runs on water?

    We need cleaver technologies to overcome environmental issues.
    Need better way to harvest the energy from the sun.

  • plmko on 04/08/2023 - 19:28
    +1

    In the end she'll always ask where's the beef and if you can't give meat then you'll end up choking the chicken.

  • Sammyboy on 04/08/2023 - 20:53

    @eckorock I get where u are going with this, but rookie error trying to push the point…as there are people who will just not want to give you the satisfaction 🤷

  • baldur on 04/08/2023 - 22:13
    +1

    Stop following sjw's, cancel culture, woke crew's agenda.

    Greens and these guys are just delusional, far from realities, they are actually insane but somehow they are building and shaping the new world order.

    • SpainKing on 05/08/2023 - 14:24

      Stop following sjw's, cancel culture, woke crew's agenda.

      You first

  • Sammy Boi on 04/08/2023 - 23:12

    Some people truly are (profanity) in the head

  • Willy Beamish on 04/08/2023 - 23:15

    If people weren't so dumb and scared by just the word nuclear, we could power the country quite cheaply and safely with the advancements in nuclear power.

    Also, the main problem with current electricity is people use it way too much, especially coming out of winter. Dumb people keep their heaters on all winter and then wonder why their electricity bills are ridiculously high. Well its high because instead of putting on socks and a blanket, you heated your entire house because you were cold. /rant as someone that has to deal with idiots complaining about their energy prices daily.

    • Aureus on 05/08/2023 - 13:30

      Safely yes, cheaply no.

      Nuclear isn't cheap anywhere in the world and would be even more expensive in Australia. The numbers have been crunched and that is the real reason both parties have historically been okay with a ban on nuclear.

      • trapper on 06/08/2023 - 00:03

        France's electricity prices are comparable to Australia's and they aren't burning through 100 million tons of coal a year.

  • auna on 04/08/2023 - 23:52

    Eventually people will have a secondary currency for their carbon credits and beef and pork will be extremely unaffordable.

    This will happen by 2040, and by 2050 you will be lucky to have beef five times a year.

  • hopper on 05/08/2023 - 03:46

    Ban gas, impose EV tax for using electricity either way ur being drilled

  • furyou on 05/08/2023 - 21:59

    Difference is, it's politically popular to say ban gas/CO2/etc
    but not for steaks/wagyu/BBQ

  • SomeTranslator on 17/08/2023 - 12:39

    It’s unrealistic to expect half of the world’s governments come to a consensus to ban meat. That’s a political and legislative nightmare, not to mention the economic fallout. Maybe this works in perfect world, but not one where a third of the planet has insufficient access to food. Also there are hundreds of cultures where eating meat plays a large role in rituals and identity. You can’t change that overnight, probably not even in a couple of decades.

  • OBEY YOUR MASTERS on 17/08/2023 - 18:52

    The only group of people even remotely qualified to talk about banning beef/lamb/pork are long term vegans. Those are vanishingly few of those because it is simply not a sustainable lifestyle. Farming plants is completely reliant on fossil fuels. Banning meat is backwards thinking.

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