My Former Employer Owes Me $30,000 and Isn't Responding to Emails

Lgoodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 14:25
Last edited 10/03/2024 - 22:07 by 1 other user

(Sorry about the fresh account, looooong time lurker, and I don't want this tied too closely because there's been multiple threats of legal action against staff from an investor)

So I'm in a bind and don't know what to do next. I quit my job at a Melbourne tech startup in August because I hadn't been paid on time for nearly three months. They were two full months behind in paying me, and in addition they owe me money for annual leave.

There was constant promises of investment "just around the corner", and a trickle of payments being made that kept a huge number of staff on the hook.

Shockingly, there's 50+ others in the same boat as me. It's really messed up.

And nearly 6 months later non of us have been paid.

We've contacted Fair Work, the Victorian Wage Inspectorate, and reported to the ATO (we actually got our super taken out of their tax return for last year!). I've submitted details to ASIC.

They're clearly insolvent but no one seems to care.

Who / how should we report this? I've almost given up on getting all of the money back, but at least if they go into administration the current (completely trash) management won't be able to continue to lie to staff.

Keen for suggestions because I've ran out of ideas.

Education & Work GoodHuman Software

Comments

  • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 14:55
    +15

    You've seemingly done all the right things with contacting FairWork etc.

    Unfortunately we OzBargain armchair lawyers likely won't have much to contribute, unless you consider 'bikies' as a viable option for getting your money

    • DiscountForThee on 29/11/2023 - 14:57
      +10

      done all the right things

      Except the most reliable: bikies

      • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 15:08
        +1

        Might be a better return than the legal fees involved in taking them to court over this.

    • ozbjunkie on 30/11/2023 - 10:33
      +3

      Bikies isn't about getting your money back, it's about making sure your enemy enjoys the money they swindled while limping

      • Switchblade88 on 30/11/2023 - 15:27

        If I employ some two-wheeled debt collectors, I expect the debt to be collected.

        Either in cash, or in equivalent value of organs… I believe the going rate is currently $15k per kidney?

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 15:08
      +1

      Thank you! I'll get in touch with them. I know other employees have had mixed legal advice so far but it's worth a try.

      We know that there's a Victorian Supreme Court case with an investor that's trying to force them into administration. They were in court the other day, but they gave them more time to negotiate.

      • AustriaBargain on 29/11/2023 - 15:27
        +3

        If they owe 1.5+ million to other employees, and who knows how much to that investor and other creditors, your odds of getting your money might not be so high. You should still try though, 30k is a lot of money.

      • holdenmg on 29/11/2023 - 15:31
        +3

        https://justiceconnect.org.au/resources/pursuing-an-employer…

        Gather your Evidence before you see a Solicitor.
        Are you Owed Superannuation etc.

        Consider if you want individual advice or whether a group of you are in like circumstances.

        It sounds like the Investor is trying to protect or secure control of Venture Capital already invested or lost.

        It is OK if you don't know exactly what you want (if asked).

        Ask questions, like "what are my/our options", "what would you do if in my/our position…"

        I have been on the other side of this in Accounting/Legal Practices and it is often the case of whoever gets in first.

        Good Luck.

  • Dollar General on 29/11/2023 - 15:34
    +2

    Seems like it’s not far off going into administration. Not much more you can do besides take civil action but no guarantee you will get any money back, particularly if it goes bust

  • GordonD on 29/11/2023 - 15:43
    +1

    It looks like they simply haven't got the money to pay you.

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 16:02

      Yeah, they don't. Probably the worth thing about this is that there's no sinister angle, other than just growing too quickly and failing to increase revenue/investment. I don't think the founders stole the money or anything like that.

  • Hardlyworkin on 29/11/2023 - 15:43
    +1

    You can take them to the small claims court yourself rather than relying on government to do something. If you're a non paid worker who was usually paid well above award wage, you won't be a high priority for those agencies you've mentioned, unless there is more to the story.

    Keep in mind that there is no guarantee of a successful outcome though the fees are minimal. Also, they may look to pay you off before the others rather than face court

    If they are insolvent then it won't matter what you or any government body does. The only way people may end up being paid in this scenario is if they do go into liquidation and you receive payment from the taxpayer funded Fair Entitlements Guarantee.

    It can happen to any company though I'm thinking a tech start up has a higher likelihood of this occurring.

    • garetz on 29/11/2023 - 16:05
      +1

      Small claims only allows claims up to $20,000

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 16:05

      The FEG as a last resort is definitely an option for some/most of the people involved. I've spoken to them and they can't really do anything until they are actually in administration (we CAN start providing information, but most of us will be able to do that quickly).

      There's people that left > 6 months ago, and others that aren't Australian citizens that we're not sure would be covered by that.

      If you're a non paid worker who was usually paid well above award wage, you won't be a high priority for those agencies you've mentioned, unless there is more to the story.

      Yeah, you're right about that (at least for Fair Work).

      • Hardlyworkin on 29/11/2023 - 21:45

        Any reason why you haven't filed yet? Small claims application will take you a couple of hours for a simple claim like that. Look after number 1 if you want to see any money.

  • garetz on 29/11/2023 - 16:11

    I was in a similar situation , i worked for a international company which pulled out of Australia, this was a long time ago now.

    Fair work didnt want to touch it with a 40 foot pole, my only option was to take it to court, but it would of cost about $12-15k, and there was no guarantee of getting the money, and then you would also be out of pocket for legal fees.

    its a rewards vs risk type of thing, the time investment to get that money plus the risk of out of pocket legal fees meant it wasnt worth the risk for me.

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 16:14

      Sorry to hear about your situation. That sucks!

      I've already emailed some lawyers to figure out the costs involved. 12-15k for a chance of getting the money owed definitely wouldn't be worth it for me at the moment.

      • garetz on 29/11/2023 - 16:16
        +1

        It's tricky, at first they say retainer of only 2k, they try to get you on the hook for slow amount of money, then its 5k, then it balloons out to 12-15k.

        Finally the lawyer said it could even cost more than that, so you got to insist on a full up front cost estimation, or they will just string you along.

  • Itsathing on 29/11/2023 - 16:14
    +1

    From your user name and story, this sounds like GoodHuman.me

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 16:16

      No comment.

    • djones145 on 29/11/2023 - 16:30
      +1

      i thought urs was
      i shat thing

      • Itsathing on 29/11/2023 - 16:46

        Hahahahahahhaha, that is way better.

  • wallet72 on 29/11/2023 - 16:37
    +5

    go to the office and take items as compensation. What are they going to do, call the police and highlight their illegal trading while insolvent?

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 17:24
      +3

      They're based in a co-working space. I should have seen the signs!

      I definitely won't be sending them my laptop back though.

  • Bargainitis on 29/11/2023 - 17:40
    +1

    You are an employee (well ex-employee) which means you should be sitting much higher on the creditors list. There is a process if the company is indeed bankrupt / insolvent. Not sure if you will get anything but if there is disbursement you should get something.

    • Almost Banned on 29/11/2023 - 19:10

      google FEG

    • Hardlyworkin on 29/11/2023 - 21:47

      Banks and ATO sit above employees, hence why employees hardly ever see a cent in a liquidation.

  • Gnostikos on 29/11/2023 - 17:40
    -1

    There was constant promises of investment "just around the corner", and a trickle of payments being made that kept a huge number of staff on the hook.

    Shockingly, there's 50+ others in the same boat as me. It's really messed up.

    Sounds like management watched the Fyre Fraud documentary and said, "We can do that… but we won't get caught."

  • brendanm on 29/11/2023 - 18:05
    +4

    I can't figure out why people hang around if they aren't getting paid.

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 19:06

      It's definitely an "I never thought it would happen to me" situation.

      Charismatic founder. Good story. Lots of communication from management about how things were going. It honestly seemed like they were always just around the corner from getting the loan or sale or investment they needed to pay people.

      It was also really stretched out.

      A payment that was two weeks late was paid, but then the next one was missed. But then they gave everyone some money from a sale. It was a mess.

      I know for sure that my stance now is to GTFO as soon as there's any late payments (and tell everyone else to as well).

      • brendanm on 29/11/2023 - 19:10

        Fair enough, would probably be hard with them stringing you along like that, but $30k in arrears is a lot.

        • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 19:43

          I should have ended my comment with "and we now realise it was all a lie".

          Because it turns out everything they were telling the employees was rubbish.

          • Excelsior on 01/12/2023 - 08:09

            @goodemployee: As someone who also worked at a Tech startup previously… you'll be able to tell what's BS just based on how the founders are spewing things i.e. what they say vs. what's actually happening (when things just don't add up/feel right). They're startup founders for a reason - basically very good salespeople.

            Let this be a lesson learned!

  • Protractor on 29/11/2023 - 18:17
    -3

    Let me help round out the story.

    "Once upon a time……………………

    ………they all lived happily ever after."

  • ihbh on 29/11/2023 - 18:17
    +2

    If they traded while insolvent, the directors are in deep doo-doo.

    You quit in August, have you got a new job? Run of the mill type and fewer upside promises?

    Next time be careful of being strung along with such arrangements - you and the other employees were gifting the owners a call option, which is very valuable.

    / things pan out - they get funding and pocket some of that and pay employees what they owe (exercise the call option)
    call option
    \ things don't pan out - declare bankruptcy and restart again with new venture (call option expires worthless, but no cost to them because they got the option for free).

    • goodemployee on 29/11/2023 - 19:04

      I've got a new job. I'm doing okay.

      I like the way that you're putting this. They've effectively gambled with everyone's money, I suppose we'll find out soon whether they won or lost.

    • Hardlyworkin on 29/11/2023 - 21:57

      Directors in deep doo-doo? I take it you're not familiar with the thousands of times this happens each year. At most ASIC will prosecute 5%.

      • ihbh on 29/11/2023 - 22:28

        The OP is suggesting that this company is trying to get funding and make it big. The either have already or eventually will need/get professional company directors (e.g., from the investors), who would be banned, fined and go to jail. No professional in their right mind would risk this. Have a squiz of the AICD or do the course. The responsibilities are onerous.

        I'm not referring to sole traders, Mom & Dad joints, etc.

        • Hardlyworkin on 29/11/2023 - 22:35
          +1

          I understand the directors of companies can face fines, jail etc. I know this as I've worked in this space for many years.

          I am also very familiar with how many actually do get fined, go to jail etc. People do risk this day in day out.

          I think you're confusing what could and what does happen.

          • ihbh on 29/11/2023 - 22:50
            +1

            @Hardlyworkin: I have experience in this area too. I mean professional directors don't risk things egregiously.

            Also, I understand conflicts of interest/lack of independence, and start-ups without the discipline of professional directors, which is the first thing investors demand before handing over any money.

  • Drakesy on 29/11/2023 - 18:25

    Definition of a Zombie company, i'm thinking this is wider spread than people are letting onto, Covid saw a record low number of bankruptcies, we're playing catchup now.

  • Almost Banned on 29/11/2023 - 19:10
    +1

    Issue a statutory demand.

  • AndyC1 on 29/11/2023 - 19:18
    +2

    Time to speak with a lawyer who specializes in work place law.

    • Protractor on 29/11/2023 - 19:44

      Are you trying to make this forum obsolete, with your crazy 'do what anybody else,would / could / should do', talk?

    • Mechz on 29/11/2023 - 20:05
      +1

      Specifically one of the no win no pay mobs.

    • Protractor on 30/11/2023 - 10:29

      Rake?
      Barnyard?
      Red?

      • AndyC1 on 30/11/2023 - 19:30

        Constructive posts are better than…..

  • brokenglish on 29/11/2023 - 19:27

    Good luck my friend 🍀

  • Mechz on 29/11/2023 - 20:12
    +1

    You need a real life Ray Shoesmith to knock on the home address front door of the CEO & directors.

    Maybe get said person to remind them they saw their partner at their place of work and how healthy their parents look etc.

    • Protractor on 29/11/2023 - 22:54

      ..assuming this is a real life situation. How many ppl do you know in a situation involving $30k would join a shopping forum for legal help? Come in spinner, ring any bells?

    • HelpMeiCantSee on 30/11/2023 - 09:46

      Aka bikies.

    • Protractor on 30/11/2023 - 10:28
      +1

      Should be a sticky here at Ozb.

  • Protractor on 30/11/2023 - 09:16

    Gerry Harvey awaits your loyalty>
    (I'm sure his Empire is about to grow thanks to the gullible consumers who enable him )

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-30/harvey-norman-boss-ge…

    • jv on 30/11/2023 - 10:45
      +2

      thanks to the gullible consumers who enable him

      Are you still pissed off that he didn't invite you to his birthday?

      • Protractor on 30/11/2023 - 20:14

        Haha, I would have opened his curtains & turned him to dust

  • tulip99 on 30/11/2023 - 13:16

    In NSW there used to be a court called Chief Industrial Magistrate. I don't know if VIC has an equivalent? Employees used to represent themselves a lot and request their unpaid wages/leave, etc, and get an order against their employer and the employer had to pay them within a certain amount of time if I'm remembering correctly.

  • doctordv8 on 30/11/2023 - 17:25

    Seek Legal advise, professional Legal advice.

    For $30g, pay a consultation fee for Professional help.

  • Protractor on 30/11/2023 - 20:16

    50 X $30,000 and 6 months of govt dept involvement, and suddenly it's a light hearted banter on a shopping forum? LOL

    Media would be all over this by now

    This it?>
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-29/providoor-tech-startu…

  • Sinnerator on 03/12/2023 - 10:03
    +1

    wage theft isn't illegal
    just ask the rich

  • goodemployee on 10/03/2024 - 18:24
    Merged from [Update] My Former Employer Owes Me $30,000 and Isn't Responding to Emails

    Update for: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/817081

    Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their advice on this thread.

    About a week after the original thread, a creditor initiated the winding-up process in the Victorian Supreme Court. This action seemed to be unrelated, as they would have issued a demand notice at least 21 days prior.

    I consulted with a lawyer regarding issuing a statutory demand based on the thread, but once the winding-up notice was served, they advised against it due to other creditors already pursuing it. I was willing to go down this path in January if things didn't look promising (i.e. that creditor was paid, and the staff were left waiting).

    Three additional creditors ended up joining.

    During the case, it was revealed that approximately 2-2.5 million was owed to four creditors (an investor, two R&D tax credit lenders, and the state revenue office). There are at least two other parties owed significant amounts that the employees are aware of (like 300k+).

    Additionally, there is 1.5-2 million owed to staff, plus the associated tax and superannuation. Most of this was covered in the previous post, but there are also over 8 weeks in 2024 where retained staff went unpaid. The staff that stuck around were paid from an investment during the second half of 2023.

    After several hearings and delays, including court-mandated postponements, the company was ultimately forced into administration. Initial efforts by the company to prove solvency were unsuccessful.

    As staff members owed money, the lack of representation at the hearings left us feeling anxious about the proceedings. There was concern that any agreements made with creditors might exclude staff.

    The legal and administration fees discussed at the conclusion of the process totaled around $20,000, which are the first debts to be paid during liquidation.

    Surprisingly, some staff members reached out to a journalist from the AFR, resulting in an article detailing the situation at GoodHuman, including quotes from employees and the founder/CEO.

    The next steps involve the liquidation process and hopefully, employees can claim through the FEG. The liquidator may attempt to sell the company's software which isn't actually too bad quality, all things considered. If not, the only remaining "assets" are the computers issued to staff, which might cover the legal fees.

    Can only hope the director ends up in jail. Feels unlikely, but they've stolen at least 1.5 million from staff, failed to pay tax properly and failed to pay back six-figure loans to at least two parties. The company first missed payments to staff in November 2022, and was probably formally insolvent in April/May 2023. Let's see what the liquidator turns up.

    • mskeggs on 10/03/2024 - 18:37
      +1

      Disappointing outcome, but thanks for the update.
      Will be surprised if anyone is jailed, likely best you can hope for is disqualified from being a director, but it’s not impossible.
      Hopefully, your protected entitlements will mean you get some of what they owe you back.

      • goodemployee on 10/03/2024 - 18:53

        I can still hold out some hope (however unlikely), right?

    • Muzeeb on 10/03/2024 - 18:38
      -2

      Checks URL

      Nope, definitely ozbargain. Thought I was on Reddit for a moment.

      The AFR picture of the CEO shows indicators that he has FAS which as adults are known to have impulsive and anti social behaviours - both excellent traits for a CEO.

    • Dollar General on 10/03/2024 - 18:38

      Because you quit you aren’t eligible for the government compensation scheme

      You are just another creditor now. Nothing else you can do

      • goodemployee on 10/03/2024 - 18:55

        I'll still be filing with the the FEG to see what they say. Staff have received positive messages about being eligible even though they quit or were made redundant (but never paid their entitlements). I'm not sure, but think it comes down to when they are considered to be insolvent from?

    • MeesusEff on 10/03/2024 - 18:50

      My husband 's boss only paid him $3k super in 3 years, I usually manage all the finances but had 2 babies in that time. Filed the case with ATO, which was ruled in our favour a year ago yet they still can't make him pay anything. We' ll probably never see that $25k or so either

      • goodemployee on 10/03/2024 - 18:57

        The ATO takes late payment of super pretty seriously right? In the GoodHuman case the ATO took the missed super payments out of their tax return. That might have kicked off some of the problems here, since they had planned to use the tax return / R&D credit to pay off lenders.

        • MeesusEff on 10/03/2024 - 19:19

          Yeah, I think he's operating the business at a loss, while his personal spending and borrowing is through the roof. I'm like… He's either got something terminal or he's going to run to a different country 🤔

          Turns out he stopped everyone's super payment for the past few years, some didn't realise until my husband asked them about it.

  • Central Intelligence on 11/03/2024 - 15:21

    No idea why a tech startup needs over 50 employees just to serve NDIS clients. It was never going to be profitable.

    Just hire a 2-3 gung-ho coders and 3-5 staff for sales and support and the whole company would probably have run smoothly.

    The ATO in general does not even care if superannuation is paid or not. In fact their systems are so bad that they have no way to match anything. The coders that work there are laughable at best. I went years without being paid superannuation, overall, but I did not kick up a fuss because my former employer was a good person who gave me a try when I faced gross discrimination even though I was born here in Australia; i.e. have no funny accent and sound like a normal Aussie bloke.

    Note: Superannuation is not even a legal obligation when you get down to the nitty gritty and analyse the legislation. There are a few penalties such as preventing tax deductibility, but that is a pointless penalty since most businesses that run in that manner end up with a goal that they run the company into the ground.

  • CaptainCodfish on 13/03/2024 - 12:01

    Why would the investors be threatening staff?

    We were a customer, albeit briefly.
    They demanded up front payment for the implementation costs.
    At the start of the engagement we discovered there many of the features we were told existed, in writing, simply did not.
    And alarmingly, their IS27001 status was suspended.

    Seems there was a pattern of fraudulent behaviour toward customers and staff.

    Bad humans!

    • goodemployee on 14/03/2024 - 13:35

      Several staff members received cease and desist letters after publishing information about the situation. Not particularly enforceable but still threatening enough that they pulled the content down.

      I said "investors" in the original post because we're pretty sure that the threats came about because one of the posts talked about the involvement of an investor that was bankrolling the company through the second half of the year (who also promised to pay the back pay of staff but never did).

  • DesiraeGray on 14/03/2024 - 10:36

    Sorry, I haven't read all the answers here yet. But the numbers look terrifying? Why don't you sue him? Do you have any proof that he owes you this money?

    • goodemployee on 14/03/2024 - 13:38

      Everyone has the proof needed for an FEG claim like employment contracts, bank statements, pay slips and communication from the company that payments were missed or expected on dates that they were never paid on.

      Suing the director might become an option in the future, but tbh not sure how much money he has and whether that would just result in a bunch of court fees and a bankruptcy.

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