I mean it makes a lot of sense for us to become a neutral state.
We follow the US but our biggest trading partner is China.
We are surrounded by Asian nations yet our political alliance is with the west.
We are a nation bound by multicultural with 52% of Aussie with a parent boring overseas.
We have natural resources everyone wants.
Why wouldn't us be better if we became a neutral state???
Option 6: Gerry Harvey for PM!
You mean Bikies right?
Every time I expose him I get locked out.
Yep, send him Bikies!
Most people don't care until it starts affecting them.
In this case because they're safe with the status quo.
We have natural resources everyone wants.
This is a reason against neutrality. Switzerland is a tiny mountainous country which is heavily fortified. Australia would need to dramatically increase its military to guarantee its territorial security if it pulled out of defence agreements.
We are a nation bound by multicultural with 52% of Aussie with a parent boring overseas.
What's your point? Is this a US vs China argument? Australia shares the value of multiculturalism with the US. China does not value multiculturalism. Immigrants to Australia are supposed to support Australian values.
We are surrounded by Asian nations yet our political alliance is with the west.
Another reason in favour of western alliance, even though it's not actually true — Australia is isolated, not surrounded by other countries. Australia's values are western, if that mismatched with Australia's neighbours it would be a reason in favour of western alliance.
New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Taiwan, Korea and Japan are western allies. It is China whose coast is surrounded by US allies. Further, China is in conflict with most of the southeast Asian nations over its maritime claims. The vast majority of the world benefits from the stability provided by US military preeminence.
@CowFrogHorse: China has the largest reserves of Rare Earth Metals.
From wikipedia: China has 48% of the world's reserves of rare-earth elements, the United States has 13%, and Russia, Australia, and Canada have significant deposits. Until the 1980s, the U.S. led the world in rare-earth production, but since the mid-1990s China has controlled the world market for these elements. The mines in Bayan Obo near Baotou, Inner Mongolia, are currently the largest source of rare-earth metals and are 80% of China's production.
@MITM: Reserves are just the resources that they've gone to the trouble of quantifying by exploration, analysis etc. Countries not having reserves just means that they haven't quantified what resources they have or, if they have, that they are not currently economically viable to extract and process. It's within China's interest to explore, drill and test as much as they possibly can as it allows them to say "look, we've got the most of what you need" to the rest of the world. It makes them look more valuable on the world stage.
Here's a good explanation of resources/reserves and a bit of a rant about how they're handled in the media - https://www.theregister.com/2015/05/31/rare_metals_mineral_r…
@MITM: MITM: So what if it does…
Yes the US stopped its own rare earth exploration for the same reason it doesnt make shoes, it was cheaper to buy from China. Australia and other palces have rare earths they just havent really tried to find more.
@CowFrogHorse: Have you been following the China show podcast? They cover all these things in great detail. Very educational.
@DeepPocketsShortArms: I do watch that now and again. Although I think they do nitpick a bit sometimes, some of the stuff that they post is very interesting - and worrying.
but it doesnt take a genius to appreciate HOW or WHAT china does… i mean we all know china is the land of fakes, we all know you can never really be sure of quality of genuiness if its froma. chinese company.
US military provides stability? LOL there isn't a war, conflict, invasion or attack that the US military isn't involved in whether arming one side or both sides. It's a rogue super power with white supremacy as it's core 'western' value
@subwoofer: @subwoofer, all powers play this game, its not new. Not sure why you think this is new or shocking.
Someone gets it
At which time i'll start caring. Until then, she'll be right !
Need option 'We act as an independent nation and make up our own mind'
The precursor to being apolitical is being privileged. Congratulations.
You will care when we have fascist Israel on our doorsteps…
We need the US to protect us.. we are only 27 million.. if another country to takes over Australia they would hit the jackpot.. ( China would do this ) Japan would have if the US didnt stop them in WW2. If we had nukes we could do this because whoever invaded would have thier country nuked
No , rather have a strategic alliance so we can continue our way of life uninterrupted.
If it's only that simple……
Simpler than trying to defend ourselves
It is, but it also means we will get dragged into any large conflict instigated by or against the USA. At the moment it is ok, but the relationship is definitely lopsided in the US's favour as any conflict significant enough to directly affect us the US will drop us like a fart in the wind as it will be to busy defending itself.
@gromit: The way I see it, we're on the same team. They aren't the best team player, and certainly have their weaknesses, but you appreciate that they have a lot to contribute.
Personally I don't see our allegiance is to US, but to the Commonwealth. The US is like a prodigal son off doing it's own thing, but eventually shows up when you need them.
@SlickMick: The Comm is not a political organisation, there is no military alliance there of any kind. There are something like 70+ countries basically all of them except UK, Canada, AU and NZ even have a functional military. Not sure what you expect from that.
@CowFrogHorse: You have to be a political organisation to have an allegiance?? Some of us know our history and are willing for fight for what we believe in - that's an allegiance.
What I expect is for big brothers to look out for little brothers. So we don't all have to be able to defend ourselves, if our enemy know that someone bigger than them has our back.
@SlickMick: SlickMick:
You have to be a political organisation to have an allegiance??
cow:
Well its implied. Only political organisations from a township to a country can make a military allegiance.
Anytime people work together on any scale its a political organisation.
The Commw has never tried to be a political organisation its just a club of acquaintances.
Slick: Some of us know our history and are willing for fight for what we believe in - that's an allegiance.
cow: Feel free to show me an eample of the commonw fighting as a team.
How many commw countries sent troops to the falklands or any other war ?
slick: What I expect is for big brothers to look out for little brothers. So we don't all have to be able to defend ourselves, if our enemy know that someone bigger than them has our back.
cow: agreed, but thats not what happens in the commw today or for over 50 years in any way. There has never been a military conference, or collective training ever.
@CowFrogHorse: Consider how Australia entered WWI. If we wouldn't do the same again, we've lost sight of who we are.
@SlickMick: Im not going to deny WW1 or WW2, but your comments do not prove any miiltary value of the CommW.
Most of the comm countries even if they wanted to fight have NO way of contributing anything. Just look at how many times Australia helps with local problems with local commw countries like Solomon Islands etc. They are like llittle kids who need help they arent going to help in return in anyway.
@CowFrogHorse: That's what I'm saying. The stronger helps the weaker. It isn't all about what's in it for me.
@SlickMick: @SlickMick
okay but i dont think many commw countries want white Australian help.
Have you seen the news in what was French Africa ? Many countries there used to get French military help all the time because their governmens are corrupt and incompetant, today they see any help as opportunist and with colonial overtones. I agree with the African countries, France isnt exactly benevolent, its actively doing a modern form of exploitation with the control it has over their money.
Given Australias size i highly doubt Australia is welcome in say Commw African or Asian countries. Prolly the only countries that actually welcome Australian help are the small countries that are nearby like Solomon Islands.
@SlickMick: Noting the anti-US sentiment, our alliance feels like the 2010 Lakers. US is clearly Kobe. Little up himself, not going to pass you the ball, little prickly and needs to be centre stage. The UK is Pau Gasol, basically the only other player the US/ Kobe is going to actually trust. We're Andrew Bynum or Ron Artest. Just do our job right and continue enjoying being part of the Lakers, the best team in the NBA, or the western alliance, the strongest cultural and military collective in the modern world.
@gromit: Kinda like when the poms abandoned us in WW2 , then we brought all our troops back to stem the tide in ANG TERRITORY .
The sooner we get that fn Union Jack off our flag the better ,
Just give us the southern cross and we’ll defend it ourselves .
@SlickMick: As opposed to what the government is doing now . Mortgaging our future for a couple of submarines . Just so we can be deputy sheriff of the south seas .
P.S. the uk couldn’t defend themselves let alone anyone else thesedays
We need to be able to take care of it ourselves even if it would be a scorched earth retreat to defendable positions .( as in the Brisbane line in ww2)
That is a realistic scenario not dependent on countries with their own interests .
@beach bum: I'm curious what % of GDP you suggest we spend on defending ourselves independently….
or your defence strategy is to retreat?
The fact that you consider this a realistic scenario reinforces my point that I hope you never get to make such a decision.
@beach bum: @beachbum:
Of all the worlds countries you could do a lot worse than be friends with the UK. Out of the 200 countries around the world, 99% of them are worse in many many ways.
Just look how friendly Indonesia has been with the boat people or bali bombings, hardly the actions of a friend. PNG is not even a real country, the place is basically a failed state, same for many other of our neighbours.
@CowFrogHorse: Do you mean the previously Australian Territory of Papua New Guinea.
The place that has been devastated by Asian logging companies and fishing fleets while they murder the locals in West Papua , that place .
Do tell me what you know ?
@beach bum: beachbum: i know far more than 99% here….
Your q is so open im not sure what im supposed to concentrate on.
@CowFrogHorse: What are your general thoughts, 1963 the un , the Netherlands and USA gave Jakarta a bunch of island territory , today there is a slow motion ethnic cleansing going on , on our doorstep .
Timor had a giant gas field , west Papua or irian jaya has a huge copper/gold mines , but nothing left to steal now but land .
Set me straight…
@beach bum: @beachbum
going to paraphrase your staatement… why did USA support an indepent Indonesia from NL.
Well its a very simple answer, the answer nearly always is Selfish. People and nations do things because it helps them first and foremost. Thats nearly alway sthe answer.
In this case the q is what did USA get out of this, what advantage did the USA gain from decolonialisation in general.
Colonies are about the mother country having an advntage to exploit the colony since the USA basically had no colonies they of course wanted to rewrite the rule books so they could gain some advantage. By support decolonialisation they gain political goodwill and the ability to take over parts of what the former colonial master had. When NL left there was a vacuum of sorts which the USA and others could now take over, which means they did gain.
It was never about freedom or morals it always about selfishness and in this case business. After the NL left, the USA did gain more business opportnities in IND.
Remember relatively not absolutely.
@CowFrogHorse: Ok , that’s some very vague and irrelevant historical info/ context to what’s happening today , but thanks for playing.
@gromit: You realize we would get dragged in either way? The US protects the sea lanes and cargo ships, we don't even own any Australian flagged cargo ships, when China blockades the sea and we have no fuel or food? We don't have the power to protect our own stuff or do anything. It is support USA world order we are used to or be a Chinese puppet, pick one.
You can only be neutral if the circumstances allow, sometimes being neutral means surrendering or not contributing to preventing a worse future. Like a madman is stabbing your family, and you claim to be a pacifist, all good in principle but reality forces itself on all of us.
@Kommodore: Australia has fuel in bass strait…
Maybe some day Australians will learn that wasting hours in a car every day to commute is a dumb idea.
@Kommodore: Australia has plenty of access to fuel and food even with a blockade, so that is just a furphy. As mentioned we don't have the power to protect our stuff with or without being a US lapdog. Anything significant enough the US will not be able to protect us, we are simply to far away to be protected in any significant conflict and to small to protect ourselves from any of the powers that could instigate that conflict.
@gromit: Lol.. you know nothing about the US.. they have 11 Aircraft carrier battle groups that are located all around the world 4 of them are in our area and are ready to defend a Tiawanese invation from china with jet fighers keeping the skys clear… they are preparing bases and building new ones in the philapines along with putting nukes back in south korea by request… Japan is arming up converting its two Helo carriers into aircraft carriers and Australia is looking at also converting our two helo carriers into aircraft carriers both japan and australia will use F35B Vtol jets on deck.. the US also has smaller friget helo/jet carriers also on patrol and those are in the south east asian waters.. the US wants to lock china in.. no free passage into the pacific. We have B2 stealth nuke bombers at Tindle in Auatralia. We will soon have US maned nuke subs in perth with nukes on board.. (not the ones we puchased) we are so close to the US that we may as well be related. Never going to break up … unless they go full dictatorship. Like in the Handmades tail Australia will 100% be hand in hand with the US..
Much simpler than trying to be neutral,which in reality would mean being a client state of China - something that you would welcome by the sound of it.
Nope, it is actually that simple.
You have an agenda on this thread that is not about 'neutrality'.
Switzerland is not really neutral any more https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/focus-page-foreign-policy_how-n…
We're a state with significant resources, large landmass, long border, small population. A tasty target for Imperial Japan. Fortunately we had allies …
Japan could raise plenty of Wagyu cattle here.
Not really an issue anymore.
Hunter Biden already has his plans on his laptop.
Don't forget to mention chemtrails and "MSM"!
Water condensation ?
And 15 minute cities! An Orwellian plot to make these basement dwellers walk places.
@caitsith01: I just like to imagine them watching an otherwise normal discussion unfolding on an Australian message board and being like (eye twitch) wHy HavENT tHeY mENtioNeD hUnter biDEn'S LaPToP yET???
@CrowReally: Oh yes Americans think the whole world is around them…
Its good too see American media has brainwashed another.
They won't have the resources as they have majority of their operations tied up with gorilla wars in China back then.
Japan has gorillas?
No, they had to go to China to find some to fight apparently.
yes they are in every Japanese zoo
King Kong is known to hang out in Tokyo from time to time
Their gorillas had a devastating defeat agaisnt Chinese's pandas.
The only problem with that theory is that Japan had no capability to invade here. We were about as far away as it could get for them with what they had. If they could have gotten some kind of small force ashore in the NT, then what? It was just going to be heat, humidity, flies, mossies, snakes and pain, for little gain.
Like the 'planned' nazi invasion of the UK, it was never an option.
South East Asia which Japan actually invaded and occupied also has mozzies, snakes and jungle.
Your reasoning here is broken.
Agreed , we had to bring back divisions of aif from North Africa to finally stop them before Moresby .
My grandfather told me about how incompetent British officers really were in European theatre , their idea of a push was to call for volunteers amongst the anzacs for their suicide missions.
All the best were lost straight away.
If we have to defend ourselves , let it be under Australian command.
@beach bum: So if you are dead under Australian command that is ok ?
What do you think about corporate management of today ?
THey are the primary reason why gas/electricity/etc etc has gone up. Their bonuses come from guess who…
Our land is too big for us to protect on our own. We need allies.
Most of the best productive land and water is in foreign hands, as are the resources.
Kinda by design, whole world was bankrupt and Australia wanted sell huge chunks of land, so buyers were mainly American.
Then Media makes it seem bad when economies having Booms (Japan and China) are evil.
We could be living the dream if the design was better.
That means little. If there ever was a conflict, all that would be confiscated/nationalised in a heartbeat.
So is Canada, oh wait they are really just another US
What, and miss out on all the USA teat sucking? All those submarines at discount prices?
And Switzerland isn’t neutral, it’s just in bed with everyone. They hoard and hide the wealth of nation leaders, no one is going to bomb them and risk losing their fortunes, and they are not going to invade there and risk a bigger nation’s leader coming to protect their assets.
And looks what Switzerland has achieved so far. Best health system, happy citizens, rich government.
The Swiss economy is incredible strong at the moment, despite them having few natural resources and little manufacturing. I guess financial services are king.
If Australia wants to prosper, we should copy Switzerland's economic and societal structures verbatim.
You are measuring prosperity the wrong way.
Just working until you die because of some excel spreadsheet is not a win for everyone.
Switzerland for starters has shitty weather, so tell me whats the point of being wealth as you would put it if its cold as hell half the year and you dont really want to go out ?
Grow up and stop being a pawn, think for yourself about your goals and values.
shitty weather, so tell me whats the point of being wealth as you would put it if its cold as hell half the year and you dont really want to go out ?
Silently cries in Melbourne.
Switzerland for starters has shitty weather, so tell me whats the point of being wealth as you would put it if its cold as hell half the year and you dont really want to go out ?
Don't confuse "different weather to Australia" with "shitty weather". I've spent a fair amount of time in Switzerland and other countries with similar climates. You can easily go out and do stuff in winter, you just dress appropriately. It's rare that you can't go outside, whereas here in Australia, there are times in summer when you can go out, it's just not feasible to do anything because it's too bloody hot.
@banana365: Im not denying that you cant go outside in CH, of course you can. I never claimed that you couldnt. My point is all thing being equal Australia weather is significantly more favoured by most people most of the time.
Thats life, people like warm rather than cold weather.
people like warm rather than cold weather
Warm, not hot, and not everyone. My very outdoor oriented life became a lot less outdoor oriented when I moved from Scotland to Australia. There was barely a weekend in the UK when I wasn't out doing something - hill walking, kayaking, mountain biking etc. For all that people say "Australians live a very outdoor lifestyle", it's not really reflected in reality. People may be out and about, but it's generally fairly passive - barbecues, beaches etc. Yes, people do other more active stuff, but it seems to be a much smaller part of the population and the participation really drops off over 30 degrees. These days I'll go bush walking in 40+ degrees, but you'll almost never see anyone else out that doesn't have to be out.
@banana365: banana; Warm, not hot, and not everyone.
cow: never said everyone, i said most.
Nothing in life where people make choices is MOST.
banana: My very outdoor oriented life became a lot less outdoor oriented when I moved from Scotland to Australia.
cow: good to hear you go outside, but guesss what not everyone is like you.
banana: Yes, people do other more active stuff, but it seems to be a much smaller part of the population and the participation really drops off over 30 degrees. T
cow: agreed but participation drops off even more when its the middle of winter cold in CH.
You arent comparing actual numbers you are simply trying to find fault with what i didnt say.
@CowFrogHorse: Not finding fault, not even really disagreeing. Just giving another viewpoint, similar to how you gave your opinion of Swiss weather as shitty in a way that could be interpreted as a statement of fact.
Switzerland for starters has shitty weather, so tell me whats the point of being wealth as you would put it if its cold as hell half the year and you dont really want to go out ?
I've lived in Europe. I vastly prefer the ability to go out year round- if it's summer the countryside is great, if it's winter then there is accessible snow.
Comparing Switzerland and Oz and saying Switzerland has shitty weather is just blindly ignorant. It's also got huge mountains, lift assisted downhill ski resorts, and cross country skiing. Australia has a load of beaches and flat land covered in scrub.
Switzerland has tons of manufacturing - but it's generally high-end stuff
One of the most expensive countries in the world. I know Swiss who drive to Germany to buy groceries.
Is it AustriaBargain ?
Yeh switzerland is so rich they have shitty weather thats damn cold half the year…
When was the last time you lived in Switzerland?
I lived there for 3-4 months this year in Zurich.
My rent was $7000/month for a 1 bedroom apartment
My daily coffee was $17
My monthly train ticket was $750.
Doctor's visit for minor procedure ($400) and follow up check up with bandages ($300ish).
Cheapest takeaway I could find was a kebab which would cost between $20-$40 depending on where I bought it from.
Door charge for a nightclub ranged from $35 to $70 with no drinks included.
It is very pretty, very expensive, and also a bit boring.
You can have it.
Maybe you are at an age where you like it slow.
Theres your problem.
You cant have a very interesting life if you list coffee prices as a concern. Isnt there anything more interesting to do than waste your life in another cafe again and again ?
@CowFrogHorse: The problem was listing a bunch of cost of living items and how relatively expensive they were.
God knows why you decided to zero in on the coffee price (maybe an irrational hatred of cafes) but you entirely missed their point.
Increasingly Europe sends Muslims away, stil room on the double island to our East.
True for most of that but my experience of the place is that a lot of people there are not happy - they seem to breed miserable f***ers
In a way, that's its own form of neutrality.
They don’t do that anymore. US forced Swiss parliament to pass the bill in 2013 basically forcing Swiss banks to share information with US tax office and other govt departments. Swiss money haven is no more.
Details if you’re interested: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N0EN1GB/
There are too many people who have the positions of power they do in deciding Australia's relationship with the world who have gotten there only because they accepted and endorsed our sycophantic relationship with Washington for that to change. Look at even Albanese himself. He was from the ALP's left wing, and was even the leader of the pro-Palestinian group in the ALP. And what's his policy now on Israel v Pals, whatever Washington says. All his foreign policy advisers are enthusiastically pro-Washington. The military is pro-Washington. It just wants more and more gee-whiz American weapons, and American wars to play with them in. We even have even happily accepted American "advisers" embedded in our spy agencies telling our government whatever it serves Washinton for it to believe.
Mark Latham was the last potential contender for Australian PM who wasn't enthusiastically pro-Washinton. He called George W Bush "the most incompetent and dangerous president in living memory". Everyone at the time knew that was the truth. And history has proved it was true. They politically assassinated and embittered him for saying it. Albanese knows that.
Washington owns Canberra. There is simply no way it could be anything else because you can't get a job there unless you are. Like has happened at the ABC, once an ideology becomes the dominant culture it makes sure only people loyal to it get jobs there. You would have to drop a nuclear weapon on the place that wiped out everyone there, and have to replace them all for it to change.
But, gees, do we have to get closer and closer every year and every government, no matter which mob we vote for, to the bunch of complete looneys that run Washington.
"He called George W Bush "the most incompetent and dangerous president in living memory"
Yeah but then Latham stuck a Bamix into his brain and pressed pulse. Until he openly condemns Trump, we can assume he's a total sociopath, which it seems they BOTH are
Need option for 'i don't care'