I mean it makes a lot of sense for us to become a neutral state.
We follow the US but our biggest trading partner is China.
We are surrounded by Asian nations yet our political alliance is with the west.
We are a nation bound by multicultural with 52% of Aussie with a parent boring overseas.
We have natural resources everyone wants.
Why wouldn't us be better if we became a neutral state???
Unless you live in the Electorate of Grayndler, you did not vote for Albanese, you voted for your local ALP representative, which aided the ALP to gain enough seats to form majority government.
Unless you live in the Electorate of Cook, you did not vote against Morrison, you voted for your local ALP representative, which prevented the LNP from gaining enough seats to form majority government.
Australia does not have direct selection of the Prime Minister, unlike presidential elections in France and the United States. The ousting of Rudd in favour of Gillard should have made that abundantly clear for anyone born within the past few decades.
You should be voting for candidates based on whether they (or their party) represent your personal policy needs, values, and alignments, not because someone has some arbitrary measure of "leadership value". It is your civic duty to choose how to be represented in parliament, not to pick a face in a popularity contest.
That's why compulsory voting is ridiculous. Only those interested and informed should vote.
Democracy is idiocracy.
Democracy started with large parties that represented large sectors of the community.
But as time has gone by in Western democracies divisions in society have decreased, most people have abandoned direct participation in parties, and political parties have been taken over by relatively small ideological groups whose goal is not to give the majority what it wants using the political system, but to impose their own beliefs and interests on everyone else using the leverage the parties give them. Parties policies are about activists agendas now, and the parties only look after the majority when they need it to get elected.
@MITM: Is that what happens in the US?
Every idiot that doesn't know a thing, but thinks they know it all still shows up to vote.
Political discourse is polarising, extreme and filled with false naratives in order to get people emotionally invested, so they can go out and vote.
Non-compulsory voting won't solve any problems.
@MITM: MITM:
No the point of compulsory voting is nobody can complain they didnt have a go.
Stop complaining there will always be idiots with and without compulsory voting, its hardly a major inconvenience to go vote once every other year.
That's a cool rant but nobody is listening.
You can try to educate people but there will still be Australians who draw a penis on their ballot paper.
While legally and technically you are correct, thats not how most Australians see things because most Australians are idiots. Dont believe me look at the comments here how clueless people are.
You should be voting for candidates based on whether they (or their party) represent your personal policy needs, values, and alignments, not because someone has some arbitrary measure of "leadership value". It is your civic duty to choose how to be represented in parliament, not to pick a face in a popularity contest
This is so nearly verbatim what I tell people at election time - well said.
what is leadership material ?
You dont understand international relations. Its not a perfect world its often a matter of picking the best worst option, just like Churchill and his words about democracy.
Like it or not most countries around the world are run by arseholes and we do need some defence. We cant just pretend everyone is our friend.
You dont seem to understand Australia is the jewel of the world. Its free, clean air, clean water, every resource you could want both mineral and food. EVERYBODY wants it they just havent made it obvious.
The world is slowing becoming a bigger and bigger shithole due to overpopulation and pollution. Dont believe me look at Africa, befor ethey were poor, now they are polluted and overpopulated. Same for half of Asia and N & S America. The illegal migrations entering EUrope are a perfect example of what im trying to summarize.
Australia is a paradise compared to those places. As things get worse around thew orld, Australia is looking better and better.
This is a fact, theres no avoiding this, so that means we do need to be able to defend ourselves, when the have nots want what the haves have.
Wasn't Switzerland contemplating joining NATO recently?
Why would even they bother now? Russia has made a mockery of all so called 'peaceful' alliances. The world has bought virtual popcorn to watch Ukraine & Palestine be wasted .
They made a mockery of their own 'alliances' and political sphere, the other groups while hampered by bureaucracy are functioning as intended(for better or worse of some countries) ….. tho ill concede the UN is hard to say much positive about…..
The UN model is fine.It's the bullies and despots from the right, inc the USA that have F/I/Over.
NATO success is mostly measured from the winning side, not the righteous or morally correct.It's based on appeasing certain dominant players, and protecting the rich elite influences from within. It's a pale coloured border juggling OPEC.
In the end these institutions lost their way when the human race went full blown globalisation capitalism
@Protractor: The good thing with NATO is that in popularly remembered history, Europe is often the epicentre for conflict(and its land borders with Asia and other east locales) which have included colonial wars, WW1 and WW2 among others….
NATO has seemingly given a respite to major conflicts with the usual players and participants, though I'd concede that's not a cut and dry situation(For example, I'm conveniently forgetting the yanks and not talking about the Warsaw pact/Ex USSR)
(For example, I'm conveniently forgetting the yanks and not talking about the Warsaw pact/Ex USSR)
Get out of here with your truth and logic.
@Forfiet: Europe is not the epicenter of wars, there have always been wars, go read the Quoran or Bible for stories.
Secondly there have always been colonies again go read your history books, some famous ones include Carthage.
The difference is we are more aware of European history because nobody else because native cultures of Africa, Asia, Americas and so on, were late to inventing tv and other media.
@CowFrogHorse: Look closer at my "popularly remembered history" and your "The difference is we are more aware of European history" I didn't make a blanket statement of fact without caveats….. please 'read' what I say in full……
They did? I will have to google that
Yes, and Finland joined NATO this year after Russia invaded Ukraine not knowing if they were next on Putin's hit list. Finland had already conceded land to Russia after German forces stationed in Finland invaded Russia in 1941. Finland was previously part of the Russian Empire until independence in 1917.
There were no German forces in FI. You have mispresented what actually happened. Unfortunately for FI they were stuck right between two major powers. Karella which belonged to FI is far to close to St Petersburg, Russia was always going to send more troops until they got it. FI being a tiny country could not fight that.
Isn't it nice that the so called stalemate, created by superpowers having nukes and committing to not using them, has all but become a blackmail /threat situation. I'm sure Indo and the rest of SEA is going to love having nukes and nuke subs next door. Would not be surprised if they joined the rush, via a tidy offer from China. Looking good for digging more holes here and some quirky man made Auroras, going fwd. Exmouth is currently getting it's target painted on. Red ,white and blue, of course. The locals love the idea according to the hand picked few they asked, cos $$. Let's see how long that joy lasts.
Has becone ? It always was from the beginning, thats the point of nukes.
pro: Would not be surprised if they joined the rush, via a tidy offer from China
cow: You obviously have no idea about chinese perseptions of the world. They literally believe they are the center of the universe, and look down at everyone, including every country outside China. There is no unity of any kind between china and any of its neighbours, basically ZERo of its neighbours actually like china.
Lol, they joined the UN later than others around and had to abolish their military tribunal where once conscript refusers got jailed. Now male suicide rates also had come down. At one stage they took the sad world record from the Japanese.
Now lefties would like to join the EU but this will never happen.
The man has a point. Switzerland doesn't have to have nuclear powered submarines :-)
But only as long as we could keep OZ rock instead of yodeling.
Landlocked nations rarely require the service of navies.
still many do, some big waterways in some places :) for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_of_Switzerland
Merchant Navies and Military Navies are quiet different beasts. Many merchant vessels sail under a Flag of Convenience.
@DashCam AKA Rolts: True, I meant by landlocked countries operating big(or big-ish) ships, I should of clarified… my mistake :P
honestly in the future wars can be fought with drones, i just dont see the use of those nuclear sub which is going to cost every person in aus like $39k or something?
Unlike Ukraine, Australia is girt by sea, and any potential adversary is going to be attempting to cross that sea. They're not going to be digging trenches among the rasputitsa fields and launching DJI drones from them. Every country will have its own unique defence strategy based on the geography around them.
A formidable submarine fleet acts as a deterrence aimed at making prospective adversaries think twice about a costly expedition. Like a packet of ultra-thins on a weekend date, it's better to have submarines and not need to use them, than to need them and not have them.
The best time to build more submarines was 10 years ago. The second best time to build them is now.
I agree. Station multiple drone subs at NT to keep potential invaders guessing if were in front, behind or underneath.
Also station ICBM's spread out along the northern coastline with an all or none launch sequence - clearly announced at the UN HQ so that there can be no doubt we're serious.
No need for any other defence personnel or hardware.
It's not a computer game.
I'm pretty sure the bad guys would just choose another strategic target or ten nowhere near our basket of eggs. Look to Gaza for a clue on what Canberra might look like .
And how long do you reckon a stash of ICBMs will last?
Just when does Joe ,$40K per head, Public have their say in all this?
1. Never
2. Never ever
3 When Hell freezes over
Are you like 12 and basing your military knowledge on GI Joe and Call of Duty? Everything you said is literally insane and wouldn't work for reasons that would take a book to explain.
Drone subs which have a range of somewhere like 10kms ? IM sure that will work great in the NT.
@CowFrogHorse: @CFH Look up "Ghost Shark" - I'd rather a billion dollars of these than 1 nuke sub.
Head of Navy Capability Rear Admiral Peter Quinn said the stealthy, multi-role vessels, typically between 10 and 30 metres long, represented a new undersea warfare capability for Navy.
“They have the capacity to remain at sea undetected for very long periods, carry various military payloads and cover very long distances,” Rear Admiral Quinn said.
@MITM: @MITM
I dont think you understand the purpose of a nuclear sub. Im going to guess, purely a guess, that the Australian subs will carry nukes one day jut like other nuke deterant subs.
Nobody will attack Australia if they know our subs will hit them back with a nuke, in the same way no one will attack the UK or USA or Israel.
Thats the price of freedom, sometimes you have to "spend" money.
Many people also think building all sorts of specialist hospitals are a waste because they dont have that problem, but thats not how countries work and thats not what leadership is really about. Making tough decisions that nobody likes but we have to do.
You obviously don't understand how the world works and what a deterrent is for an island nation surrounded by water? The reason China complained and made up more lies about us is that it throws another challenge for them in being able to take military actions on or around Australia.
No you dont understand the chinese leadership basically think they are gods. China has claimed to be the center of the universe, go read the titles of the emperors. THey still havent recovered from their century of humiliation, they are very ashamed that Europe came along and took HK etc, while they couldnt do anything, even after claiming to be divine and above everyone else.
This is just a continuation of Chinese leadership claims and their determination to seen as the greatest.
Go read wiki about the century of humiiliation.
every Swiss citizen has a gun and a mountain cave to shoot artillery at invading armies from.
What exactly is a person with a GUn going to do against a tank or a plane dropping bombs ?
Someone has been watching too many Rambo movies, one or a few people with a gun are nothing more than dead.
Too late, we are Americas haemorrhoid, now and forever. We missed neutrality when the ALP were recruited bought out by the CIA decades ago.Since Whitlam, we have been owned.
Please link an article, wants to read about it
LOL,
It's our history.
Bury yourself in books.
EDIT> (starting point)
https://redflag.org.au/article/alp-and-us-alliance
"Throughout the Cold War, leading union officials and key ALP powerbrokers—such as Jim Kenny, assistant secretary of the NSW Labor Council and ALP state secretary, Laurie Short of the ironworkers’ union, Australian Workers’ Union Secretary Tom Dougherty and ACTU Secretary Reginald Broadby—developed strong links with the CIA, the US State Department and Cold Warriors in the US trade union movement."
dude i wasn't bore here! and i doubt any current gen knows much about it either….no disrespect
Wow redflag, somebody bought a domain for $5 and wrote it up.. it must be true.
Ewwww Redflag
Guardian Article from 2014 (Opinion Section) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-…
No leader can become Prime Minister of Australia if they do not bow down to the US and pay protection fee to the US.
Until the empire falls, like all past ones fell.
With the world now so intertwined, the US fall may very well bring the world with it. US is not going down without a fight. Scary thought
@beefmaster: what exactly is your point ?
You want AU to do nothing and let Fatty, Vlad or Pooh Bear just walk in and do whatever they like ?
@CowFrogHorse: Oh, we dont want that. Thank goodness we bought US submarine to protect our sea and our Navy park outside China seas. That will show them we are not afraid and we are tough guys ready to Rambo anyone who look us the wrong way.
Every time I see a GP I pay $40 out of my pocket but that is okay, because that is a small price to pay for freedom and not let anyone walk over us.
Every war big brother is involve, we will unconditionally jump in and support. Because we are the good guys and must not allow bad guys do whatever they like. Finish them!
Switzerland has no oil or minerals. Better compare with Brunei:
Propell Albo the be the Sultan of Oz!
But that country is a mess….still is…….
Nobody knows how anything works.
Luke 12:31 KJV But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Nobody knows how anything works.
Luke 12:31 KJV But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
FTFY
Its very funny how you quote the bible, maube you should be asking yourself why Jesus is a champion for the Romans.
WHy is he telling poor people to pay tax to the Romans ?
WHy is he telling slaves to stop complaining and work hard for their masters ?
No where in the bible does anyone like a prophet or Jesus or any one else who is supposed aware of gods love and laws, ever say that slavery is wrong.
Hey the answer is right in front of you… poor people who were slaves didnt write a single page of the bible, how could they ? Poor people couldnt aford to kill thousands of sheep to make copies, hell they couldnt even read or write.
The only people who can afford to keep religions alive are of course the peopl ewho sponsor religion. The authors of the hebrew bible are all kings of high priests or military leaders. Thats right the bible is written by people like Trump, Putin, Fatty and Winnie the Pooh thats why they have their sock puppet tell everyone to obey their masters.
Probably best to consider why Sweeden (after two hundred years) and Finland that have moved away from being neutral.
^This
Sweden in particular as they actually have their own Military Industrial Complex. They can be relatively self sufficient across a bunch of Military Technologies unlike us who have virtually no Heavy Industry remaining and even less in the way of design.
Our last heavy industries was? Holden?
Yeah, and even then that's probably a bit of a stretch. (At least Ford and Mitsu also manufactured Engines here)
The Swiss can stay neutral because they are surrounded by western and friendly countries on all sides. Not only that, but they have their fingers in everyone's pie. They are indispensable.
We are in a more precarious situation
i wouldnt call some of the countries in the euro friendly……
Germany, Austria, Italy, France are not going to be invading. And to the east, there are another 4 countries before hitting anything remotely hostile
We are a nation bound by multicultural with 52% of Aussie with a parent boring overseas.
What has boring parents got to do with it?
AUS: around 25% non citizens, Switzerland around 35%. So boring over there!
35% none citizens in Switzerland, didn't know that!
CH has the highest immigration and migrant rate in all of EU.
Most of us just want peace in the world. Politicians meanwhile stirring shit constantly, filling their own pockets, motivate by their own greed and agenda. Fu these (profanity).
Sure you want peace, if you one of the people on the top of the pile.
But if you are at the bottom you want things to change, and if the people at the top use their guns and bombs and missiles to deny you a peaceful path to fairness and justice, and call you a terrorist if you use any form of violence against them, you probably don't want peace.
It was JFK who said that those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
that's why they are politicians and we are……….we
Sometimes peace requires 'stirring shit". Otherwise you risk being seen or treated as a door mat, and then peace goes out the window.
Yeah, strategically it doesn’t make sense for Aus to embroil itself in a third world war.
Far better to play it like Singapore. be a friend to everyone.
If we’re that concerned about getting invaded, get a bunch of shitty missiles, Iran style. (Or outright nukes / nuke potential, Israel, Pakistan, DPRK, or Japan style).
If we’re concerned about our shipping getting disrupted in a war, that’s more reasonable. But it’s also difficult to realistically avoid—offence is easier than defence. And in any case, the biggest threat to our shipping is the USA. If something kicks off with China, they’ll pressure us to stop selling. If we continue to, chances are our ships will be blockaded/sunk.
There’s no realistic need for us to have hunter-killer submarines to be forward-deployed against China. We want to sell to them. They want to buy from us. It’s a lot cheaper for anyone to just buy our minerals than it is to conduct an invasion by sea.
Sure, China can get pissy if we step on its toes internationally. But that’s not a feature unique to a relationship with China. Just look at how cowardly ‘Friend of Palestine’ Albo has been—he’s not even allowed to call for a ceasefire! If we’re going to sell principle down the river, at least sell it to the highest bidder.
Why would the grovelling deputy sheriff not join a 3rd world war? We have joined every other illegal US invasion and massacre since the post WW2 copulation
Albo cant even the the people back into detention without the need of federal judge……..he is a very weak leader……..
He’s a weak leader because of a High Court ruling?
Bucks stops at him
@Aerith-Waifu: Yeah, nah, that's not how it works.
On the surface, I tend to agree with the High Court that if these people have served their prison time then holding them indefinitely in detention is cruel. Yes I'd agree with deporting them, if there was somewhere to deport them too. I see Dutton jumping up and down about letting dangerous people back on the streets and Labor dropping the ball, but I don't see how this is any different to an Aussie citizen serving their time for violent crimes and getting let out at the end of their sentence.
@Randolph Duke: So, two have already been arrested and charged for crimes against Australian citizens. Now it's up to the judge to firmly make an example and apply the maximum sentence as a deterrent that this sh1t ain't tolerated. But a woke judge will probably slap them on the wrist until a life is lost.
@MITM: Punishments handed out by judges, both first time & repeat offenders, is a separate issue. Hopefully these 2 get the book thrown at them, although I'll bet the detention will be blamed for their poor mental state etc etc
No, he's a weak leader because even traditional labour voters are turning on him. Not because he betrayed them but because 'MSM propaganda and negative press, and because he needs to drop the nice guy shit and go after Dutton using the same style.
The LNP FU the refugee mess and yet Dutton & the MSM have turned it upside down to blame the govt. The LNP just left the mess and wins the medal in the news. Simple plan for simpleton voters
@Protractor: Albo and labor have had a relatively free run in the media over the past year, compare the negative media, Rudd, Gillard, Abbot, Turnbull ( he had a very bad run)and Scomo (deservedly)had. Albo in contract has had a free run for 12 months.
@tomfool: I think that honeymoon is well & truly over.
Albo cops it on the media trash with the largest audiences. And that's where sentiments shift. Dutton would destroy this country, but the plebs don't care.If we come out the other side looking like Pauline's wet dream. Much like peak Apartheid looked. Lot's of ppl in Straya,today love that flashback idea.
opposite…its about time we invade new zealand!!
We don't need to invade them, we already beat them in cricket that's enough for them to surrender with white flags
Need to beat them in Rugby Union first…. and given how the Wallabies are going… it ain't going to be soon.
If we could beat them in the NZ trifecta (Rugby Union, Netball, Cricket), I think that'd do it.
We were clolonised by the west (europeans) so we follow the west. China is even detested by its surroundind asian countries so i dont know what the benefit would be for us to ally with them…
If we become a neutral state we can kiss goodbye to any profits from oil, gas and beef as they'll quickly be taken over by foreign companies.
Also your poll is misleading, there's 3 options all with the same reasoning.
To become neutral Australia would need to significantly spend much much more on military spending. This would mean increased taxes.
Military service would need to be introduced. An increase of young people to fight/defend would also be needed.
So all the things people don't like -
Higher taxes
Military hardware (just look at criticism of the new subs)
More government intrusion with compulsory military service.
More immigration
In your scenario I would link all incoming migrants to serving in the military for 3 full years to gain citizenship.
2 birds one stone. On the other hand conscription for our yoof, is long overdue, after all people keep rabbiting on about 'our freedoms' .Let somebody do the heavy lifting.Discounts on a first house after discharge.
Personally I prefer a neutral staus, but meh, humans love wars. When we aint blowing each other away, we do it to nature, and as always we do what the USA wants. And then some
High pop countries with great interest in Australia (e.g; China) could just flood the country with migrants, have them serve 3 years in the military and gain citizenship and voting rights. From there they have a large number of citizens with allegiance to another nation, and with the power to vote to align with them.
a military with no allegiance to their country, that would be a great state to be in
They won't waste 3 good years on that concept, when they can grab us in a week with sledge hammer
I voted for Albanese, but not because he is leadership material….. because Scott Morrison is far worse……