Australian Standards – a Trillion Dollar Gap?

User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 16:50
Last edited 01/01/2024 - 16:52

As an engineer, one thing I really appreciate when it comes to living in developed countries are various standards. They give you repeatability, predictability, security, ensure well-being of both businesses and consumer, and many other positive things. There are many posts on this forum, for example, that highlight how potentially unsafe $10 imported extensions cords can be, etc.

It’s all great, except, there seems to be no standards for housing.

As a customer, I’m not even asking about complex things like “R-value”, thermal resistance of your property. It would seem you cannot get something as simple as reliable measurement of your house/apartment dimensions. The apartment I’m renting and 3 identical apartments above my head (two of which sold recently), their measurements varied, depending on the source, between 92m2 to 110m2 – and I’m talking internal dimensions only, excluding balcony/garage. For bit larger houses, around 300m2+, I’ve seen measurements vary by over 50m2, depending what website you’re on. In many cases, I’ve seen obvious errors in measurements of properties – two adjacent bedrooms, same width on the plan, different numbers. Google search “How to obtain technical documentation of your house” returns no meaningful results. REA asked for technical documentation comes with nothing. I know there are constructions standards, but they seem to be general guides for builders, with details typically not obtainable for your specific building.

In the country full of standards, where car manufacturers are sued for misleading information about car fuel consumption, and my power cord must be compliant, why there’s no technical standards/documentation available for customers paying $1m+ for their house?

Home & Garden

Comments

    • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 17:14
      +14

      Agree, and add that any engineer would know that the problem is self regulation and piss poor govt inspections and policing. Govt wants more houses,not better ones. And if ppl are stupid enough( they are, it's the default position) to build an oven for a house when solar passive is a no brainer that costs no more, then let them cook/freeze and go broke on power bills on AC.

      • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 17:51
        -8

        I see no problem in self-regulation, as long as you know what you're doing, and communicating it in a transparent way.
        If self regulation doesn't meet standards, and hides problems, then there's an issue.

        When you're spending $1m+ on property not knowing what you're getting, it's definitely a problem.

        • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 17:59
          -2

          "I see no problem in self-regulation, as long as you know what you're doing, and communicating it in a transparent way."
          If self regulation doesn't meet standards, and hides problems, then there's an issue." There is an issue.With most self regulation. No more toxic than in construction of houses. (has been for decades & getting worse as we lose decent trades people to imported 'technician' grade sub standard labour) Hence your post.

          Hate to bust your bubble but $1M is no longer considered a reason to bark at the lack of quality.

          There already are building standards. There is already self regulation.But bugger all govt inspector involvement and with dodgy builders churning licenses like OzB phone sims.The end result is what you can complain about, but that you have Buckleys of fixing,while that's the case. If you want a good $1M house at the end, be prepared to pay 2.5 or 3 times that.

        • this is us on 02/01/2024 - 09:22
          +4

          You see… This is part of the problem… People can't self regulate… Businesses can't self regulate…

          To the topic, even with regulation there are fiascos such as the cladding… It was regulated and after some time they found out that some of the listed approved materials were also a fire hazard.

          Australia is usually overegulated, but as others mentioned there is poor inspections and policing.

          In my field (health) the policy makers are extremely stupid and the good people who actually know what they are doing have to fight against a broken system and stupid bourocrats. I feel that the same might happen in the construction field except that construction brings money while public health takes money away.

          Born and raised overseas, Australian for two decades, I'm actually shocked to see "Australian standards" in construction. The quality of houses here is so poor and cheap that people often only care about the land value. Not even talking about the (lack of) architecture, with houses built like ugly dysfunctional paper boxes, often identical to all the other houses on the street.

          https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-23/calls-to-tighten-buil…
          https://theconversation.com/australia-has-a-new-national-con…

          • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 10:08
            +2

            @this is us: When I was a kid, my family was buying top quality food from a local farmer. Of course, the guy didn't have a single certificate, didn't finish any organic courses, training or certifications. He was a simple, honest bloke, just doing the things right. Didn't need anything to self-regulate, just conscience. Later in my life, I've come across many good people doing their job right. They were honest, good folks, following "treat others like yourself you'd like to be treated" rule.

            If honesty and trust is replaced with greed, then of course, we need government to step in. All matter of values one follows.

            Seems construction industry needs those badly, as we're not quite moving in the right direction.

            • leiiv on 02/01/2024 - 15:01
              +1

              @User102430: In any large enough society on earth at any time, how many of people like those guys are in term of percentage?
              I would say it's likely less than 50%. That's why we need regulations and courts. Even then the bad guys are still ripping off and scamming consumers. Maybe there a better way to solve it without incurring high-cost economy?

              • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 21:51

                @leiiv: @leiiv you're absolutely right. We're not at that stage of development, as civilisation, to get rid of standards. Or courts.

                Hence my first post - asking about standards.

            • outlander on 03/01/2024 - 12:48

              @User102430: That's a person.

              As soon as you separate people from consequences (both good and bad) everything goes to shit, and a corporation has basically become that. If you eat a bad potato from Farmer John, you know who to blame. Bad shit happens now and I don't even know who to go to. When you buy a thing, the shop your buying it from is sold as a rock. Then you have a problem, and suddenly everythings vapour. "Oh no, we don't deal with that. You'll have to contact the manufacturer"

          • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 10:10
            -1

            @this is us: This is a good point. More often than not, unless the house is a custom or owner built type house , it's almost as if the building on top of the land is inconsequential to the overall value.
            "Oh well at least the land or location is worth something".

          • Poor Ass on 03/01/2024 - 10:18

            @this is us: atleast no tofu buildings yet

        • Randolph Duke on 02/01/2024 - 14:59

          You have more faith in humanity and people’s greed than me.

    • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 17:46
      +9

      Mate, there are various areas of engineering - civil, construction, chemical, aerospace, environmental, computing, etc. I'm not a construction/building engineer.
      In my field, technical documentation is plentiful and easily obtainable, so perhaps I'm spoilt.

      I know generic construction standards exist in Australia, however, there's question how they're being applied.
      Simple exercise:
      - pick random house on Realestate or Domain site
      - tell me what roof & ceiling insulation has been used

      Not to mention, in many cases, you won't even get reliable m2 measurement.

      • sumyungguy on 01/01/2024 - 18:25
        +8

        There's no requirement to include the year of construction in a real estate listing, but if known we can determine the minimum insulation based on the state/territory and code requirements applicable at the time. Codes don't apply to homes built pre-1988.

        • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 20:12
          +1

          Thanks, that's very useful, mate.

      • MrHyde on 01/01/2024 - 18:28
        +2

        Simple reason is that most people don't care about those things, so no incentive for real estate agents to publish/provide that information.

        If you really need it, engage a building surveyor to get a report done up. You may also be able to get the plans that were submitted to council at the planning permit stage - no guarantee they line up with what was actually built though as there is no requirement to submit actuals after construction. Building inspectors are supposed to check and validate that what is built lines up with the plans, but we all know how corrupt that system is.

        BTW, I'm in IT and it is similar in our industry. The design documentation is outdated and incorrect by Day 1. The design informs the implementation, but there is nothing to say that the implementation must conform to the design… lots of things are modified as they are being built and not all of those changes are reflected back into the documentation.

      • AndyC1 on 01/01/2024 - 19:30
        -8

        So engineer by name only.

        • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 18:18
          -2

          Judging by OPs double posting here and at reddit, I;d say fabricationengineer

          • AndyC1 on 02/01/2024 - 18:59
            -1

            @Protractor: 1000% agree. OP has not disputed my post that he/she/it/them do not have a Uni Degree.

            • OZKap on 02/01/2024 - 19:20

              @AndyC1: Do you require theDm to post their academic transcript?

              • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 20:07

                @OZKap: There's as much chance of that , as per dashcam footage of $200K FIGJAM car going through yellow lights at 70kph, on cruise control while Hot Fuzz creeps up from behind

            • lancesta on 03/01/2024 - 04:03
              +1

              @AndyC1: You don't have to go to university to be an engineer, you can be one with a diploma and commonly an advanced diploma and never set foot in uni.

              Engineers Australia are the key accreditation body for engineering and they have different levels based on the Australian Qualifications Framework. A lot of the accreditation is internationally recognised.

              Regardless of whether someone goes to Tafe or uni though no-one is an engineer of all disciplines. They even have "software engineers" who really don't have to touch Australian standards. Actually in my entire 4 year electrical engineering degree at uni we never had anything on AS3000 or any other electrical standards whether Australian or international. From talking to others TAFE is better in that regard but even then you still likely would be limited to the field you're studying.

              • Jaspa7 on 03/01/2024 - 22:45
                +1

                @lancesta: Not to mention the amount of fresh 22 yr old grads..
                Electronic/Electrical - written a thesis on harmonic load analysis but can't tell a resistor from a transistor
                Civil/Structural - can whip up 3D FEA models of the Sydney opera house but wouldn't know the first thing about mixing cement
                Mechanical - can design a clutch for F1 car but incorrectly loads a trailer

                list goes on..

                That piece of paper that people think is the criteria for calling oneself an 'engineer' has become increasingly worthless and experience increasingly priceless

                • nigel deborah on 05/01/2024 - 06:23

                  @Jaspa7: That's the point though. A civil engineer doesn't need to know how to mix concrete necessarily, just its physical properties once mixed and set. I'd expect an electrical engineer to know the difference in how a resistor and transistor perform, but if they can't tell the difference by looking at them just out of uni, why does that matter?

                  These specific skills are taught by workplaces as required. Engineering degrees would be a decade long if they went into every practical detail. Instead, they focus on key theoretical concepts and understandings which set the individual up to learn about and understand specific systems in depth (not just how they work like a mechanic would, but why they work and how to design them).

                  Not to say there aren't some bad engineering courses out there, but not for the reasons you've raised.

            • User102430 on 04/01/2024 - 10:59

              @AndyC1: Validated by my employer. If you have open position, send me a link and you'll see my CV with all necessary paperwork lol

              • AndyC1 on 04/01/2024 - 16:38

                @User102430: What does "Validated by my employer" mean?

                • tre180 on 04/01/2024 - 18:37
                  +1

                  @AndyC1: Three days, multiple downvoted posts and you're still needling OP over his engineering credentials, why do you even care? People on this site can be so bloody weird sometimes

                  • AndyC1 on 04/01/2024 - 20:12
                    -3

                    @tre180: I hate people who say they are engineers when they are now. I also hate managers who only hire people with a degree when people with experience can do a better job.

                  • User102430 on 05/01/2024 - 10:14

                    @tre180: Met these types of people before.

                    Typical story goes like that: usually with some talent, but serious mistake is made in the past, like dropping off uni, or too lazy to start it, choosing something else influenced by parents or friends etc. As the years go, they realise something went wrong, resentment grows,they start hating everyone, whether their employers, system, politics, wife, kids that were born wrong time, or a random dude on the forum that claims to be an engineer - it doesn't matter, it's always someone else, it's never their problem. They never learn personal responsibly, they're unable to look at their own hands and own mistakes made. Even if I had sent him copy of the diploma, he'd claim it's fake. They can never be pleased.

                    Quick advice would be, as someone who interviewed over the years many, many times: it's not the degree that is a problem. I've seen people hired without it, it's the attitude that matters or lack of thereof. Hard to work with someone who has narcissistic or overly pessimistic traits, even if they have right technical qualifications, but difficult personality. Never mind, however, most will never listen to such advise anyway, they're typically unable to self reflect.

                    I typically let them go, living in hate, in their own mental state, is sufficient punishment they bring upon themselves.

      • lancesta on 03/01/2024 - 04:07

        Yeah I gotta love the disclaimers they have over them too. Surely if you're making a 20-50k commission on a house you should have to pay a surveyor or someone that can measure a couple of hundred dollars to get accurate drawings of the basic room dimensions. There'd be lazers and shit that'd do it really quick. They could do it on a standard from a height of 1m or something (for all those wonky frames).

      • cadwalader on 04/01/2024 - 16:24

        I know generic construction standards exist in Australia, however, there's question how they're being applied.
        Simple exercise:
        - pick random house on Realestate or Domain site
        - tell me what roof & ceiling insulation has been used

        In which country can you do that and get answers consistently and consistent with reality for a second hand property?

        Show a real estate website from that country where you can independently verify the answer to your question across just two sources for 60% of the listings.

    • Drakesy on 02/01/2024 - 14:38
      +2

      OP has a fair point, and it's shared among the industry.

      Although you'll find 99% of home owners couldn't care less, let alone developers who are more than happy to walk away and disappear.

    • ddilrat on 03/01/2024 - 10:47

      What's a diploma qualified engineer

      • JIMB0 on 05/01/2024 - 07:43

        An advanced diploma gives you the title of engineering associate.

    • 900dollaridoos on 04/01/2024 - 16:34
      +3

      because if your were

      I'm an engineer from a good uni and have done well in the industry, and I'm a dumbass.

      Not only that, like half the engineers at uni were somehow bigger dumbasses than me.

      Food for thought.

  • Sye on 01/01/2024 - 17:04

    Men can't measure. They always think things are longer than they really are.

    • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 17:16
      +9

      Not a one gender issue , that measuring thing.
      Seen a few chubby ladies with elastic tape measures too.

      • serpserpserp on 01/01/2024 - 17:39
        -7

        Still not seeing how women measure things longer than they really are?

        • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 17:40
          -1

          Then perhaps you should read what I wrote (properly).

          'Some women can't measure,either'

  • Benoffie on 01/01/2024 - 17:24
    +16

    When photoshopping and digital staging are allowed in selling properties, you should know the only thing you can rely on is a huge sign saying 'Welcome to Cowboy Country'

  • serpserpserp on 01/01/2024 - 17:41
    +10

    OP you are a renter. No one has any interest in providing you anything except a bank account to deposit your rent into

    • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 17:48
      +9

      I am, for now. Looking for a place to buy and I'm surprised I get nothing: my car came with more detailed manual. Nah, my electrical kettle has more detailed manual than $1m+ properties I've been looking at.

      • brendanm on 01/01/2024 - 18:08
        +1

        Why would you need a manual for a house?

        • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 18:40
          -2

          Possibly projecting a previous expectation or experience from another country?

        • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 20:10
          +7

          My father built with his own hands a house, over 40 years ago, that will last another 100 years. It may be inherited by his grandchildren.

          I'm not a flipper or someone who wants to buy it just to sell making x2 the price. I'd like to buy a quality house that can be potentially used by my kids, and perhaps even grandchildren.

          And it's quite an ambitious goals if you don't know how the place was constructed.

          • brendanm on 01/01/2024 - 20:13
            +1

            @User102430: Ok, but you are never going to know. Even if they wrote down that it was constructed in a certain way, it could have been done differently. Do some research, and look at each place yourself. Most are crap, buy an old place, or build yourself using only people you trust. I've been in multi million dollar places that had corners cut that even I, as someone with not much knowledge, could spot.

            • Chandler on 03/01/2024 - 10:30

              @brendanm: I got the plans/documentation for our place off council. Approved drawings had comments on them to move a smoke detector and the roof access manhole. These comments were not implemented…

          • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 21:28

            @User102430: You should emulate your old man. Build your own, or engage a builder (after research) you manage the whole way through. You seem to know what you want, Otherwise you are hunting for a unicorn.In this country regulations and standards are not the backbone of the lived experience. They are just the 'wishful' sales pitch.

            • pinchies on 01/01/2024 - 21:52
              +7

              @Protractor: In my opinion something has gone seriously seriously wrong if poor quality housing stock is no longer just “buyer beware” and DYOR, but is now essentially the status quo across the board for both new and old builds.

              I’m very curious what people like yourself would suggest doing in order to “research” how not to make a multi-million blunder in the housing market game, whether building or buying.

              Having seen some of the “Tictoc inspector” videos on YouTube, I had no idea how bad things had actually gotten until recently. As the OP said, Australian Standards used to mean something — but if they are not being enforced, then all bets are off as to what is behind the plaster.

              • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 22:24
                -3

                @pinchies: Suggest? The answer is so big picture related, (bigger than just a shit job) (it's down to how many of us there are, and how many of the 'us' demands the 'best' to be delivered 'yesterday'
                We are believers in fairy dust, as long as we believe humans can keep expanding with no detrimental downstream effects. We don't even see what's going on outside our window any more, and when we do notice we don't GAF.
                I'm not even sure it's remotely possible any more. The due diligence model just can't work with buildings in Straya any more.

                • pinchies on 01/01/2024 - 23:51
                  +3

                  @Protractor: You make a prolific number of comments per day, but your comment above does nothing to answer my question.

                  If you are going to build a home, what kind of research can and should you do to minimise your risks, and maximise your chance of ending up with a quality asset? How do you select a quality builder? e.g. visit recent completed builds and also ask to see their inspection reports, or perhaps ask to choose the building inspector and surveyor yourself?

                  • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 09:45
                    -1

                    @pinchies: All of the above. Reviews, word of mouth, talk to REPUTABLE building inspectors in your state about the good and bad builders. Make sure the builder has a trade and has been in the industry long enough to earn a good reputation.Add to that talk to an occupant/s in one (as many as you can) of their complete houses and get feedback. The problem is this is a minefield because the tradies used per house can change by the day.You have to start with a low turnover,high quality,highly reputable builder, who uses the same tradesmen from go to whoa. But the industry is so far from that now, I don't like your chances.
                    In short minimising your risk is to do the due diligence. If you don't know what that looks like, I don't think you'll have much joy landing the best house for your money, and maybe should take what you get, or rent.

              • SlartiBartFozz on 03/01/2024 - 21:53

                @pinchies: Actually building standards are from the NCC (formerly BCA) and the small handful of Australian Standards that are specifically referenced by the NCC. So many building components are not required to be AS compliant, the AS are almost always al have more stringent requirements than the NCC.

            • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 10:09
              +2

              @Protractor: Not possible, I'm afraid, as we're engineers in completely different fields.

              Knowing there are effectively no standards helps, though - need to approach the problem differently.

          • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 22:05
            -2

            @User102430: Thats wonderful.
            Why cant you build your own with your own hands?
            Or live in the one your father built?

            • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 20:08
              -1

              @bargain huntress: It fell down 38 years ago. Police are looking for a big bad wolf

            • bargain huntress on 02/01/2024 - 22:34

              @bargain huntress: Why am i being negged?

              • SpainKing on 03/01/2024 - 15:43
                +1

                @bargain huntress:

                Thats wonderful.

                This part comes across sarcastic

                Why cant you build your own with your own hands?
                Or live in the one your father built?

                These ones snide

                Not saying that's your intention but that's why

                • bargain huntress on 03/01/2024 - 15:56

                  @SpainKing: That was all sincere

                  I dont understand how people read sarcasm or tone into text

                  You literally cant hear any tone

                  • SpainKing on 03/01/2024 - 16:22
                    +1

                    @bargain huntress: Everyone has their own style of typing and someone's version of being mean/sarcastic might look a lot like someone else's version of being sincere and inquisitive. It's not your fault and I struggle to blame the other party unless they're just looking for things to upset them

                    As a couple of pieces of advice, ending a paragraph with a full stop makes it appear like you're making a firm point or trying to dunk on the person you're replying to (possible reason why yours was negged for "Thats wonderful.").

                    Other thing is it's the internet, the points don't matter and you know you were being sincere. Only thing that sucks is to be taken the wrong way and not get the answers you were looking for

        • Aust on 03/01/2024 - 21:32

          It would certainly help if all the user manuals for electrical appliances, hot water, solar, irrigation, alarms and cctv including user names and passwords unlike the house i purchased that had SFA.

  • Tomcruise on 01/01/2024 - 17:48
    +4

    Australian houses are not SOLD by the m2. The Yanks use it for sales, but our Property market is so screwed. It's irrelevant.

    • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 09:04
      +1

      Why not? The fact people are talking about "comparable sales" yet you cannot get simple reliable m2 metric to make simple comparison - even if only as a reliable starting point for comparison, is rather disappointing. Also, it's not just Yanks, I've seen m2 metrics commonly used in sales in Europe and Asia.

    • SlartiBartFozz on 03/01/2024 - 22:08

      m² is not commonly used in USA, AFAIK they use square feet.
      Land in Australia is marketed and sold by m² or acres typically.
      Dwellings are marketed in Squares, which are a real estate industry anomaly in Australia using feet, an imperial measure not metric (1 m² = 0.1076391 sq). Builders, Architects, Surveyors, use m2.
      Real Estate agents and developers also have their own method of measuring, NLA which is from internal wall faces, whereas the rest of the building industry including authorities use GFA which measures the whole of the building footprint. It gets more complex with subdivision, strata, apartments, or non-residential uses, but that's the gist.

  • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 18:02

    but our Property market * and building & construction sector quality, is so screwed. It's irrelevant.

    • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 18:42
      +7

      I guess if more people were to ask about difficult questions about technical standards, it would be better?
      The fact it's all right to compare TV, headsets, laptops before buying, but looking at technical aspects of a million dollar purchase make you look like an idiot?

      • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 18:48
        -2

        It is what it is. If generations of Australians have failed to get a better outcome, with 'self regulation' and the status quo of govt involvement at all 3 levels (apparently input is optional) then you'll be leaving the thread and property hunting amid disappointment. You may score a plum, out there in the lemon orchard, but I bet you won't like the price.
        This is not an ideal model, an ideal country or an ideal world.
        And frankly why should an investor get the cream of the building supermarket, when Joe Average has to wear the common pain of building and construction nightmares. Even the end result when renting, (eg a stifling hot or draughty cold, or both 'home' )
        Self regulation sucks.

        • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 21:48
          +1

          As civilisation, if "It is what it is" were the main thinking line, we probably wouldn't even invent the wheel.

  • ihfree on 01/01/2024 - 18:17
    +4

    Ever watched the channel Site Inspections?

    • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 22:03

      Jinx

    • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 09:05

      Thanks for the tip, invaluable - I may actually hire these guys to check my next home

  • pinchies on 01/01/2024 - 18:20
    +3

    @User102430 I sympathise with you, but I think the reality is more due to system forces: that is, this is a complex system, and there is no significant benefit to the people who hold the power in this system. Since it is not in their overall interest, and there are no consequences, we get what we get. Looking at the building and construction sector, even the things that exist that are supposed to regulate house construction to actual measurable standards — aka qualified house inspections — are terribly corrupt and broken.

    • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 18:40
      +7

      That's the thing mate, spot on. I'm used to compare, look, think analyse, it's normal for me.
      Property market here resembles more of a sect/cult really - "believe, don't ask".
      No wonder we have more and more disappointed young people, when the game is all about money only.

      • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 19:20
        -1

        Which home country are you talking about?

        Property market is and always will be about $$$.
        As for 'first home ownership', VS the investment anchor, you can credit Little Johnny for proudly sewing the seeds of 'me first' into our society.

        • User102430 on 02/01/2024 - 21:40
          +2

          Labour is also a market and yet, we've managed to abolish slavery and even give people few weeks of paid holidays, plus medicare.

          Not everything is about $$$, or at least, not everything should be about $$$.

          Personally, trying to find some quality in this madness, that's all.

      • MessyG on 04/01/2024 - 17:46

        Agree with everything you say and take in one past cult and straight into "mafia".

    • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 18:41

      ** terribly corrupt and broken.**
      end of thread,right there.

  • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 19:13
    +21

    I really agree with you User102430

    I dont know why you are getting so many negs

    The whole system is a giant cesspool

    I emailed a real estate agent pointing out the obscene error of dozens of square meters extra in a floor plan on one of their listings. I tried to be nice about it and ask if they had made a mistake instead of pointing out that they were either incompetent or crooks, and they didnt even reply.

    Its hard to get agents in general to reply to any question in person, on line or on the phone.

    They dont know anything about the properties they sell or they play dumb.

    I went to an inspection where the house was literally falling down, but you should see the listing! They had used angle and lighting and i think even photoshop to actually make it look good. It was unbelievable. There were hundreds of people at the open walking through gobsmacked. I couldnt believe how much it sold for.

    • User102430 on 01/01/2024 - 20:22
      +14

      It's OK, mate. All negs tell quite a bit how people approach the market, and also why the quality is declining.
      I always thought it's just builders, but it seems buyers not making demands/asking questions is equally significant factor here.

      All makes sense if you think it's just a money game. However, I'd like to buy a house my kids can inherit, so asking some, perhaps inconvenient, questions.

      • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 21:55

        I think all you can do is pick a location/s you like and seems safe into the future, get a building and pest, and go for something plenty below your max price, so you have the money to fix all the inevitable problems 🤷‍♀️

        I mean what else can you do?

        Other than becoming a qualified builder yourself i guess

      • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 10:21
        -2

        LOL. Bit rich to blame the consumers of the housing market.

        Even the standard building contract is rigged to the builders side of the equation.

        It's a basket case. The plebs have wanted it fixed for decades. These days, instead of fixing problems this country imports them or pays multinationals billions$ to put bandaids on the problem. You only have to look at the road network to see the bottomless trough of exploitation by foreign companies. If you want a house as per your specs you have to do it yourself physically or as per an "in your face" management system, or 'as mentioned elsewhere, import the solution you require.

        Perhaps you could engineer your way into govt and solve the problem.

  • djsweet on 01/01/2024 - 19:21
    +5

    I was an observer in a building project recently and so many things were changed at the time of construction it’s not funny. The structure is no where near the plans, but the builder didn’t seem to think it matters as long as it doesn’t exceed the size approved by council. Loads and loads of changes were made during construction. As built documentation was never even generated let alone retained. Even the builder wouldn’t be able to tell you the m2. You’d need to measure it. If council even inspect they will only take measurements if it’s obviously significantly different to the plans.

    • Protractor on 01/01/2024 - 19:44

      I think the introduction of 'fast wall' brickwork was a clear alarm bell indicating we have moved from quality to quantity..

      Council inspection? LOL. 20+ years ago I had to beg the bloke to enter the house on inspection. Seat warmers/oxygene thieves, if you can find one.They are desktop adornments. IF they even still exist

    • ihfree on 01/01/2024 - 22:10

      The structure is no where near the plans, but the builder didn’t seem to think it matters as long as it doesn’t exceed the size approved by council.

      Are the changes signed off by an engineer?

      • ozkiwi75 on 04/01/2024 - 11:42

        Don't know why you got negged. It's actually a very important question.

        In answer to your question, it normally depends on if it's a cosmetic change (say a facade) or engineering change (load bearing wall relocated). How that gets decided is subjective sometimes, especially on a fast paced construction site with a contractor that just wants to quickly move onto the next job. Depending on the state, the builder could be liable in court. QLD for example has the Registered Professional Engineers Act, which states that it's a criminal offence for a non-registered engineer to undertake engineering duties (for example make engineering decisions/changes during construction in this case). Even if you're a registered engineer, it's an offence to provide engineering advice outside of your discipline (eg. a structural vs hydraulic engineer).

  • payless69 on 01/01/2024 - 22:00

    Disclaimer: Dimensions are approximate….

    • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 22:03

      Yeah but how can nearly a hundred square meters out be approximate

      Thats either on purpose or negligence

      • afoveht on 01/01/2024 - 23:10
        +1

        The four character absolver: E&OE.

      • payless69 on 02/01/2024 - 05:05
        +2

        I have heard rumours that US investors have bought out Australia's largest real estate firm.
        It is only going to get worse. We are going to nail two by fours between feet and inches. Yards are either short tons or long depending on how the crow flies.

        • Protractor on 02/01/2024 - 10:53

          Fixed it>

          I have heard rumours that US investors have has bought out Australia'

  • bargain huntress on 01/01/2024 - 22:01
    +7

    If you want nightmares watch this guy
    https://youtube.com/@Siteinspections

  • Indomietable on 01/01/2024 - 22:10
    +7

    The standard is there and very detailed. The problem is no enforcement and no accountability.

    One way to fix this is to have compulsory insurance where home owners can claim dodgy built against insurers.

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